A Letter from Executive Producer Aaron Campbell

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Originally Posted by bobbylobs

Unfortunately that is the chance you take with PUGS, however I would say in Lotro I have encountered far more friendly and accepting pugs than unfriendly ones, but also that is one of the real downsides of losing so many raiding and healthy shall we call them "grouping" kinships, the ones that arent hardcore, but do raid or group together every night , the kins that take in new inexperienced players and show them the ropes, gear them up,go deeding with them, teach them the basics through 3 mans and 6 man stuff and then add them to the raid runs.

Due to the lack of group content much of those kinships have died so people have little choice but to start their grouping life in pugs, some get put off by a bad experience some dont even attempt it due to pre conceptions(maybe from other games) and that all adds to a decline in group activity.

I am a firm believer that if you invest in the kinship system to create a healthy active kin based community (and yes the kinship revamp proposal that is so famous would be a BIG step in the right direction) and then provide them with the engaging content we used to get, then a, lotro's population would sky rocket and b,you would be surprised just how popular the group content would become.

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Definitely. I almost always joined PUGs. When I first started, I wasn't even in any sort of raiding kinship. Of the toons in my siggy, all but my minstrels are in my own (extremely) casual kinship -- mostly just a few friends who stick together. My Landroval toon of course isn't raiding (yet!). My Riddermark minstrel, however, I took out of Riddermarked for Death and joined first one kin then another. Those kins did at least some raiding and PvMPing. There is always a chance with PUGs, but I think that, as the saying goes, "judging a book by its cover" has no place in PUGs. People should be given a chance. What kind of message does it send to those new at raiding who get told, "Sorry, bro, but your virtues stink and your gear is so not up to standards." Even if that's followed by a dose of advice (even if it's a good dose of advice), it's hard to get past the initial shock and sting.

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Originally Posted by Crell_1

As for #1 Yes. It's discriminatory, however, not all discrimination is inherently bad. We discriminate against criminals, we discriminate against age by not allowing people of all age to vote just to give 2 examples. It is reasonable that the leader should be able to feel that the player can pull their own weight and that the group has a reasonable chance of success.

As for #2. What virtues and gear show are a willingness to put forth the effort to prepare by being the best 'solo' player you can be. Are some people's expectations/minimum requirements too high? Yes. Perhaps they lack confidence in their leadership skills or just want an easy time. But I think you would have to agree that just because I asked every single person to be inspectable the entire time I was leading ToO pugs from Day 1 of launch that there was anything inherently elitist about it. Sure, you may have thought that at first, but I think after a few months, you and the rest of the server who partook in GLFF during the time would have had a hard time justifying that stance after the first month or so. I'm even reasonably certain you yourself defended me against that very accusation of being elitist by asking for the chance to inspect people in the past.

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True, but we already know criminals are criminals, and we know that children don't have the experience (to say the least) to be reliable voters (goodness, not even all adults are reliable). But the point is, in PUGs, if you have a complete stranger who wants to join up, it is not a fair or good discrimination to say no simply because the stranger doesn't have maxed virtues.

As for being inspectable, considering how many people in GLFF aren't even near level-cap, I'll agree that it makes sense to be inspectable. "Be inspectable -- that way I can at least confirm you are at the right level." There is nothing inherently elitist about it. It's when they turn someone down afterwards for not having the best stuff. Virtues are in a grey area -- they can be gotten in PvE. What would get under my skin is when people would expect everyone to have, for example, at least 3 pieces of gear from Set A. It's a horrible catch-22. You need X in order to join us. You get X by joining us. You do not have X, so you are not joining us. See what I mean?

I think I have defended you at times, though I don't remember any specifics. You are also probably the only other Riddermark person who is active on the forums -- in the very least, the only one I'm aware of -- so I'm usually pretty interested to read what you have to say, and probably much of the time I agree with it. :)

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Originally Posted by bobbylobs

Go check the join dates of those "3 month" accounts they are all old, they are people fed up with how things are going, and to dismiss them as alt accounts just because they happen to have a different view to you is ridiculous.
3 months is MORE than enough time to get to end game nowadays anyway it can be done in 3 weeks.

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It may be possible to reach level cap in 3 weeks. But to be able to match another player who has months or years of experience and intimate knowledge of mechanics and the such? Highly debatable. It takes time to reach that level of proficiency, and 3 weeks seems very short. I believe that may be the point.

Coupled with the knowledge that many of those brand new accounts are actually dupe accounts made by existing members so that they can complain in the safety of anonymity. Sapience has said (can't remember where) that this has been happening recently.

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Originally Posted by bobbylobs

Go check the join dates of those "3 month" accounts they are all old, they are people fed up with how things are going, and to dismiss them as alt accounts just because they happen to have a different view to you is ridiculous.
3 months is MORE than enough time to get to end game nowadays anyway it can be done in 3 weeks.

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I dismiss them because they're new accounts. Lemme takes yours, for example. Says you joined in 2014. There's no way for me to know for sure that you've played any longer than that. No, that doesn't mean I expect people to post proof before they post. You say check though. How exactly do I check your join date aside from what it says on your profile? I can't, as far as I know. If I can, please direct me to how I do so. I dismiss all new accounts, for better or worse, whether they agree with me or not. How you came up with the conclusion that I dismiss them because I disagree is something I don't understand cuz I never once said that. I welcome differing opinions, but I expect to see the time match the experience, and when I see 2014 users talking about playing back in the good ole SoA days, I begin to wonder about how many of these are just alts.

And for the record, I don't disagree with those wanting endgame content. I just don't care about endgame content so it doesn't affect me. Doesn't mean I disagree with them. I disagree with their tactics when it comes to voicing their opinion, which I'll touch on below.

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So what if they are a minority? does that mean their individual opinions count less? if they are so fed up that they have decided to break the norm and post their dissatisfaction do you not think they should be heard? I would argue that a long term player who is getting fed up enough to voice that is in need of being heard more than a long term player staying silent not being fussed either way.

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Nope, never said that either. You're trying to put words in my mouth that I never uttered. I said I don't like when people claim to speak for the majority. Speak for yourself, but don't try and claim that you speak for all the users who have left. I've left for months at a time. Does that mean I left because a certain feature was changed or removed? No, it means I left because I wanted to do something else, but when I'm then bundled into a group of people who supposedly left for another reason, I get annoyed.

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Your argument was that the same people are saying the same thing over and over again so therefore their complaints are somehow lessened, I was simply pointing on your flawed "facts" its isnt the same people at all, its lots of different people saying the same thing over and over again, and maybe, just maybe it might be a good idea to address why these people are saying these things, before they decide to call it a day and go elsewhere to find what they are looking for, minority or not, those people all have money to spend.

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My argument was that, generally, the same people are complaining. A hundred or so people out of possibly thousands of users (I don't know the exact number, nor does any other member of the public) means jack squat in the grand scheme of things that get added to the game but it doesn't lessen their opinion. But when some of those hundred people start saying that half their server left because of a lack of endgame, I stop caring about their opinion because I do not like the tactic of using people who are gone as your "proof". When speaking your mind about the lack of content in a civil and non-assumptive manner, it will get you further. I could just as easily pull the argument that hundreds of people left when they introduced the Gift of the Valar because it became pay to win at that point. You can neither prove nor disprove either claim, so don't use it as it weakens your overall message. The assumption that all these people left because of this reason is a poor way to start or end a discussion.

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Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave

Coupled with the knowledge that many of those brand new accounts are actually dupe accounts made by existing members so that they can complain in the safety of anonymity. Sapience has said (can't remember where) that this has been happening recently.

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I edited my post , as it states all of those accounts were made BEFORE 2011, I dont think they are alt accounts made up to complain about end game HD.

And also, no 3 weeks is not long enough to claim knowledge of the game, however 2 months or so at the current level cap is definately long enough to decide whether someone is bored or not and whether its worth carrying on with the game after all wasnt the whole skill revamp thing supposed to entice new players into the game?

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Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave

What's more, I don't think they thought that non-end-gamers would hate the new system either. As the EBs are available from lvl 10 on up (much like skirms for 20+), I think they hoped to draw the more solo (or merely low-level) players into the fold.

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As I have said... IMHO, Helms Deep is the first expansion that... for longevity purposes... has not appealed to either the "grouper" or the "soloer".

The raiders don't really have a decent set of instances to run. This is where I criticize the Epic Battles the most... they all should have at least been 6-man instances with 2 of them easily being capable of handling 12-man raids. Instead we got 1 6-man and 1 12-man. The rest confine you to 1-3 people at best.

But, on the flip side, there isn't a whole lot for the "solo guy" to do like they had with Hytbold. At least Hytbold offered people something interesting (albeit repetitive) to do that also tended to foster running endgame stuff. (Hytbold is not endgame... but it did give equal access to raid gear... it offered an "on ramp".) The Epic Battles are not as solo friendly as they should be... Skirmishes are more solo-friendly than EBs are... unless you are 95 at which soloing is a bit of a joke right now.

Point... LOTRO is failing to "straddle the fence" even as well as it did just a year ago.

LOTRO still has other things going for it... but it isn't "straddling the fence" for top-end progression (or completion) like it used to.

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I guess it is a matter of perspective. If crafters are not given their own category, then yes, raiders may indeed utilize it more than others. Soloers don't have as strong a need for "the best" or even for "the quickest" way to meet their ends. They can, if they so desire, take a relaxed and casual approach to, well, everything. Raiding, on the other hand, is somewhat of a competitive business. A lot of thought and effort must go into their approach to new raids (and similar content). Same with PvMPers, which is an even bigger competition. In raiding we are all on the same team. In PvMP, the freeps are trying to beat the creeps, and the creeps are trying to beat the freeps. I had approached this from the perspective that crafters had their own category. The same more or less goes for the example of Star-Lit crystals.

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The thing is that... if you take away supporting decent raids for the raiders to do... you take away the natural incentive to "gear up". By extension, you will start seeing the "economy" of the game start to dwindle.

I am not anywhere near the "hardcore" in terms of raiding. But, right now... even though I have geared up my 95s like I normally would... the incentive to do so is kind of lacking.

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1) It seems a little discriminatory, though, to not even give a person with low virtues and less than good gear a chance. People should be given a chance. Sure, they may turn out to be crummy raiders, but on the other hand they may be really good.

2) The ones that would come across as elitists, for me personally, are those who do the stuff in #1. And I would hope I'm not perceived as that. I purposefully hold myself to a higher standard as a matter of principle. I fail at times, but I am a perfectionist and have been for well over a decade. In real life I often get compared to my brother. He has a much higher IQ than I have, and a nearly photographic mind. He did not have to work hard to get good grades. However, I can take pleasure in knowing that, while I may not be as smart as him, at least I got better grades.

If one of those raiding kinships have high expectations, then that is fine. What I'm talking about are PUGs where the leaders tell other people to be inspectable. People they don't even know. They judge those players based purely on appearance, and without giving them a chance.

With the language and whatnot, I don't mind profanity. I don't personally partake in it, and if it's extreme then I will ask it to tone down. But I was speaking more about the vulgarity of the discussion than the profanity. Talking about certain parts of the anatomy with such sick fascination is repulsive.

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If I can be blunt... I do not think you are quite grasping that higher standards... such as having decent gear/stats for raiding... is part of the culture of raiding. This is not a phenomenon exclusive to LOTRO.

The truth is that people who have decent gear and have reasonable stats... chances are those people know how to play their character better than "the other guy". This is not always the case. But, short of interviewing every candidate... inspecting their gear is the quickest way to know how much time that person has likely put into their character.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having these kind of expectations... as long as the leader is up front about what he expects. And, yes, it is discriminatory for a perfectly good reason of wanting to avoid people who will be a drag on the group.
There are those in this world who have gone to great lengths trying to convince everyone else that all discrimination is bad. No. It is not wrong to be discerning about who you recruit for your team.
The leader of a raid should be discerning enough to recruit people who will perform their task well. In the past, there were definitely times when having your virtues high and good gear made a huge difference... not so much anymore.

And, frankly, instead of complaining about not being able to join a raid because you didn't measure up to the leader's expectations... make it your mission to go out and fill in the gaps in your character so that you can join next time.
In fact (and maybe I'm generous on this), if there is a guy in my kinship who doesn't have something that would be useful for joining a raiding group... we would make arrangements to help that person get what they need. We didn't lower our standards... but we helped people get what they needed.

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Originally Posted by LethalLethality

I dismiss them because they're new accounts. Lemme takes yours, for example. Says you joined in 2014. There's no way for me to know for sure that you've played any longer than that. No, that doesn't mean I expect people to post proof before they post. You say check though. How exactly do I check your join date aside from what it says on your profile? I can't, as far as I know. If I can, please direct me to how I do so. I dismiss all new accounts, for better or worse, whether they agree with me or not. How you came up with the conclusion that I dismiss them because I disagree is something I don't understand cuz I never once said that. I welcome differing opinions, but I expect to see the time match the experience, and when I see 2014 users talking about playing back in the good ole SoA days, I begin to wonder about how many of these are just alts.

And for the record, I don't disagree with those wanting endgame content. I just don't care about endgame content so it doesn't affect me. Doesn't mean I disagree with them. I disagree with their tactics when it comes to voicing their opinion, which I'll touch on below.



Nope, never said that either. You're trying to put words in my mouth that I never uttered. I said I don't like when people claim to speak for the majority. Speak for yourself, but don't try and claim that you speak for all the users who have left. I've left for months at a time. Does that mean I left because a certain feature was changed or removed? No, it means I left because I wanted to do something else, but when I'm then bundled into a group of people who supposedly left for another reason, I get annoyed.



My argument was that, generally, the same people are complaining. A hundred or so people out of possibly thousands of users (I don't know the exact number, nor does any other member of the public) means jack squat in the grand scheme of things that get added to the game but it doesn't lessen their opinion. But when some of those hundred people start saying that half their server left because of a lack of endgame, I stop caring about their opinion because I do not like the tactic of using people who are gone as your "proof". When speaking your mind about the lack of content in a civil and non-assumptive manner, it will get you further. I could just as easily pull the argument that hundreds of people left when they introduced the Gift of the Valar because it became pay to win at that point. You can neither prove nor disprove either claim, so don't use it as it weakens your overall message. The assumption that all these people left because of this reason is a poor way to start or end a discussion.

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Again, they are NOT new accounts the oldest was made in 2011 , how can an account made in 2011 be made solely to complain about an end game from an expac that came out in nov 2013?
thats how you check, common sense.

At no point did I mention anyone leaving I said there are people complaining about a specific topic and that is true, you seemed to think its the same people complaining all the time and I have proven that to be false.

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Originally Posted by bobbylobs

Again, they are NOT new accounts the oldest was made in 2011 , how can an account made in 2011 be made solely to complain about an end game from an expac that came out in nov 2013?
thats how you check, common sense.

At no point did I mention anyone leaving I said there are people complaining about a specific topic and that is true, you seemed to think its the same people complaining all the time and I have proven that to be false.

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I'm not talking about this thread only. I'm talking about all the threads that's popped up on the forums talking about a lack of endgames. Many have been closed, deleted or merged but I've seen enough 2013 accounts talking about running ToO or Angmar stuff when it first came out to know that the dates don't match the comments. There have been plenty of new accounts posting as if they're old timers.

I also didn't claim you said people are leaving. I was speaking in the general sense of "you" as-in, the one reading this post, not the one the post was in reply to. Apolgies if you thought I directed it towards you specifically.

Oh, no worries. I wasn't talking about those. What I (and I believe Lethal as well) are talking about are accounts that are brand spanking new and already spouting all kinds of "facts" about this game. Either A) they are dupe accounts made by long-time players, or B) they genuinely are new and have no idea what they are talking about. If A), then I'll be inclined to disregard it. If they have to hide behind dupe accounts, then I am dubious as to what they say. If B), then, well, I'll disregard it completely. As you say, it takes more than a handful of weeks to be able to speak knowledgeably about this game. Heck, I've been here for years, and I still find new things that surprise me on a regular basis. I feel there is always room for improvement.

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Originally Posted by TheCrossbow

As I have said... IMHO, Helms Deep is the first expansion that... for longevity purposes... has not appealed to either the "grouper" or the "soloer". [...] Point... LOTRO is failing to "straddle the fence" even as well as it did just a year ago.

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On that we can definitely agree. My 95s are sitting in the Aldburg crafting hall. I log in to empty their mailboxes or do any necessary crafting and whatnot. That's about it.

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Originally Posted by TheCrossbow

The thing is that... if you take away supporting decent raids for the raiders to do... you take away the natural incentive to "gear up". By extension, you will start seeing the "economy" of the game start to dwindle.

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I see what you are saying now. :)

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Originally Posted by TheCrossbow

If I can be blunt... I do not think you are quite grasping that higher standards... such as having decent gear/stats for raiding... is part of the culture of raiding. This is not a phenomenon exclusive to LOTRO.

The truth is that people who have decent gear and have reasonable stats... chances are those people know how to play their character better than "the other guy". This is not always the case. But, short of interviewing every candidate... inspecting their gear is the quickest way to know how much time that person has likely put into their character.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having these kind of expectations... as long as the leader is up front about what he expects. And, yes, it is discriminatory for a perfectly good reason of wanting to avoid people who will be a drag on the group.
There are those in this world who have gone to great lengths trying to convince everyone else that all discrimination is bad. No. It is not wrong to be discerning about who you recruit for your team.
The leader of a raid should be discerning enough to recruit people who will perform their task well. In the past, there were definitely times when having your virtues high and good gear made a huge difference... not so much anymore.

And, frankly, instead of complaining about not being able to join a raid because you didn't measure up to the leader's expectations... make it your mission to go out and fill in the gaps in your character so that you can join next time.
In fact (and maybe I'm generous on this), if there is a guy in my kinship who doesn't have something that would be useful for joining a raiding group... we would make arrangements to help that person get what they need. We didn't lower our standards... but we helped people get what they needed.

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But just because something is a part of it (even if not just part of LOTRO) doesn't mean that thing is healthy. It's fine to have high standards and to want others to meet them. And fine, if you refuse to play with those who don't meet your standards, then that is your choice and one you may freely take. But it sends a very wrong message to the other side. Yes, the other side can totally take any advice given, especially if it's good advice. But, as I said, it isn't encouraging when people tell them they aren't good enough, especially when they weren't even given a chance. It is discriminatory in a negative manner to avoid people when you haven't even given them a chance. Give them a chance and then decide whether you want them in your group anymore. At that point give them some pointers and then nicely replace them. Don't just snuff them out at the first sign of low virtues and normal gear.

As you say, you don't have to lower your own standards. Just help others meet them. And the first step is to ensure they actually do need to meet them. People should be given a chance.

It's very sad to see this thread get derailed and plumb the depths of intra-community petty squabbling about who has the most right to complain about something or other.

Here's a novel idea? How about we stop all of that nonsense and instead focus the discussion about something constructive, such as to what Turbine should be doing over the next couple of years? You never know - the exec producer might just take part :)

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Originally Posted by LethalLethality

I'm not talking about this thread only. I'm talking about all the threads that's popped up on the forums talking about a lack of endgames. Many have been closed, deleted or merged but I've seen enough 2013 accounts talking about running ToO or Angmar stuff when it first came out to know that the dates don't match the comments. There have been plenty of new accounts posting as if they're old timers.

I also didn't claim you said people are leaving. I was speaking in the general sense of "you" as-in, the one reading this post, not the one the post was in reply to. Apolgies if you thought I directed it towards you specifically.

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no need for apologies, I have never been able to grasp posting on the internet, my posts always seem more personal and/or aggressive then I intended them to be:). I will be honest with you these new accounts you speak of I am not seeing and I have been reading the forums a fair bit. Maybe its due to my personal stance on the end game right now, but I am seeing more and more new names pop up but with long term accounts saying the same things about challenge and raids and pvp, its something that I even started to keep an eye out for.

I agree we have no concrete proof as to why people are leaving, but what I will say is the people who I know that have left have all left for the same reason, and it is undeniable by anyone the forums have been dominated with a certain "flavour" of late, the theme to people discontent on the forums is not hard to gather, check on other gaming forums and MMO forums and people are saying they left lotro for the same reasons too. Is that 100% proof that everyonr or even the majority of people left for those same reasons? no of course not, but common sense would say if people are leaving a game and the biggest complaint from people is feature x, then maybe start looking at feature x as the reason people are leaving. If not at least come up with an alternative, because surely it cant be good to have no idea why people are leaving.

Well, I'm not gonna derail it any further, because as Bango said, talking about what Turbine can do to appease everyone is far better.

Just glad we got our comments/discussion sorted out.

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Originally Posted by BangoTwinkletoes

It's very sad to see this thread get derailed and plumb the depths of intra-community petty squabbling about who has the most right to complain about something or other.

Here's a novel idea? How about we stop all of that nonsense and instead focus the discussion about something constructive, such as to what Turbine should be doing over the next couple of years? You never know - the exec producer might just take part :)

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Yes agreed totally, I apologise for my part in that.

Constructively speaking as I mentioned earlier, my opinion is that investing in the kinship system is the first step that needs taking.

Kinships provide so much to this game its unreal they touch on and enhance every aspect of the game,
want to enjoy raiding? would being in a healthy active kinship help? you betcha
crafting? who better than to craft fro than kinnies?
pvp?, check
music,RP,Explorer, festivals you name it, its all enhanced by being in a fun,active kin.

does being in a kin take away anything from a soloists point of view? I dont think so, I am not saying everyone must be in a kin, but investing in kinships wont detract anything from a soloist game surely?

In short I think kinships are the foundation of the game they give the platforms that the rest of the game can grow from. Spend time and money on an imaginative kinship system and you will create a need for group content, 3man,6man and raids, people will be in groups that they trust, with people they want to spend time with all you need to do then is give them the content to do that.

We see it now, there isnt much content to do at 95 that hasnt been done to death or is popular, so people group up and go to the moors, players that have never been the moors before are there now, why? because they WANT to group and the only things the older players are doing is the moors, if there was a new moria/RoI/OD style instance cluster people would be doing that, but the rading in lotro has declined and the kinship system has been heavily neglected, fix 1 and there will be a need for the other, get them both alive and kicking and as the crossbow pointed out, that success and vibrancy will filter down through the rest of lotro.

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Originally Posted by LethalLethality

Well, I'm not gonna derail it any further, because as Bango said, talking about what Turbine can do to appease everyone is far better.

Just glad we got our comments/discussion sorted out.

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Pretty sure I was already suggesting... doing things that strengthens the raiding community...

I know not everyone likes the Epic Battles... but... converting them all into taking 6 people (while still keeping the solo/duo versions)... and making both Helms Dike and Deeping Wall accept 12 people.... that would be a start. It would make them much more available to people as something to do.
And, fixing the loot system related to EBs would help too.

Those 2 things can't exactly take a lot of effort. You aren't making new instances. You are simply altering what is already in place.

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Originally Posted by TheCrossbow

Pretty sure I was already suggesting... doing things that strengthens the raiding community...

I know not everyone likes the Epic Battles... but... converting them all into taking 6 people (while still keeping the solo/duo versions)... and making both Helms Dike and Deeping Wall accept 12 people.... that would be a start. It would make them much more available to people as something to do.
And, fixing the loot system related to EBs would help too.

Those 2 things can't exactly take a lot of effort. You aren't making new instances. You are simply altering what is already in place.

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Yeah. I really don't understand why each BB can't be scaled into a Raid. Seems to be a rather simple thing to do.

Crossbow made the suggestion a few pages back (post #303) that free server transfers should be offered in an attempt to merge the servers in a roundabout fashion. The only thing I can think of that would make this a possibly bad idea would be that not everyone would be aware. Maybe they are on sabbatical or whatever. Ultimately, servers that are low pop now would be even lower pop then, but I doubt that any of them would have anywhere near as few players as zero. And as long as there are players on a server, it doesn't seem like a smart business plan to trash those toons.**

That said... is the Paid Character Transfer page new? I don't remember it being there before. Apparently you can buy transfer tokens for roughly $25 each. You can get to the page via the Community tab at the top of the page.

**Although, I guess in a way that was what happened when Turbine took control of the European servers again.

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Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave

That said... is the Paid Character Transfer page new? I don't remember it being there before. Apparently you can buy transfer tokens for roughly $25 each. You can get to the page via the Community tab at the top of the page.

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Yeah, and it also seems to be automated now as it says wait times are under five minutes.

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Originally Posted by LethalLethality

Yeah, and it also seems to be automated now as it says wait times are under five minutes.

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I'm curious to know whether anyone has tried it yet. ^_^

Also, it doesn't seem to be fully completed. When you hover over COMMUNITY at the top, the link also says "& Copies" but no mention of char copies is inside the actual page. I'm assuming it refers to copying into BR, and that isn't yet finished?

It would be nice if VIPs got a free transfer per month. Sapience, do you think this might be something that the crew might go for? I realize it's currently roughly worth $25, but still... I think it would be a great boon to players. :) Or perhaps make it 1 every 3 months if possible? Otherwise everyone would probably just buy 1 month of VIP for $15 and have their transfer for $10 less than its current price.

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Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave

Crossbow made the suggestion a few pages back (post #303) that free server transfers should be offered in an attempt to merge the servers in a roundabout fashion. The only thing I can think of that would make this a possibly bad idea would be that not everyone would be aware. Maybe they are on sabbatical or whatever. Ultimately, servers that are low pop now would be even lower pop then, but I doubt that any of them would have anywhere near as few players as zero. And as long as there are players on a server, it doesn't seem like a smart business plan to trash those toons.**

That said... is the Paid Character Transfer page new? I don't remember it being there before. Apparently you can buy transfer tokens for roughly $25 each. You can get to the page via the Community tab at the top of the page.

**Although, I guess in a way that was what happened when Turbine took control of the European servers again.

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Lotro does have the feeling of butter being spread thinly over too much bread, there are a lot of very quiet servers out there, maybe it would be good to have people given the option ( i know that automated transfers are available now, but it seems very expensive, surely it would be better to make it more affordable, after all why price someone out of transferring from a server they dont like? It has to be better to keep that player playing over have him leave ) to transfer 1 character for free then make them pay for any other transfers after that.

The people who like and seek out the quiet servers wont be effected in fact it will become all the more quieter for them, and the people who are craving for some company will find each other.

edit,
you posted much the same idea as me whilst I was typing, a free 1 shot transfer.

I wonder what causes the price to be so high. Now, my understanding is that in the past it was roughly that price and the process took days (if not longer) because it had to be run manually by an actual person at Turbine. But if it's actually automated now, it seems like the cost should go down. The estimated wait time is 5 minutes. $25 for a 5 minute transfer? O.o

Sounds like we're off the topic of Aaron's letter and update and on to one that has its own thread elsewhere. Let's try to get back on topic.

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Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave

I wonder what causes the price to be so high. Now, my understanding is that in the past it was roughly that price and the process took days (if not longer) because it had to be run manually by an actual person at Turbine. But if it's actually automated now, it seems like the cost should go down. The estimated wait time is 5 minutes. $25 for a 5 minute transfer? O.o

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The cynic in me says its due to how needed it is right now, some servers are really struggling and someone with a high level character would not be keen on just dropping their main and starting a new character on a more populated server.Server transfer will be popular right now so maybe they thought they could charge more.

As for a more innocent reason, well I cant think of one, unless its to recoup some of the cost of setting up the automated service, but even then it seems high.

Personally things like this have never really bothered me , its upto each individual to decide if its a rip off or not, if someone pays it, then to them it must have been worth it,if not it wont sell, as long as the money goes back into improving lotro its all good.

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Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave

Crossbow made the suggestion a few pages back (post #303) that free server transfers should be offered in an attempt to merge the servers in a roundabout fashion. The only thing I can think of that would make this a possibly bad idea would be that not everyone would be aware. Maybe they are on sabbatical or whatever. Ultimately, servers that are low pop now would be even lower pop then, but I doubt that any of them would have anywhere near as few players as zero. And as long as there are players on a server, it doesn't seem like a smart business plan to trash those toons.**

That said... is the Paid Character Transfer page new? I don't remember it being there before. Apparently you can buy transfer tokens for roughly $25 each. You can get to the page via the Community tab at the top of the page.

**Although, I guess in a way that was what happened when Turbine took control of the European servers again.

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It would be easy to advertise it. Put the free/discounted transfers being available right on the launcher... put out an email that goes to everyone's inbox.

You run the free transfers over the course of a year... perhaps in 2-3 month intervals.

After the year of free transfers are over with (ok maybe 6 months would be sufficient), take page from City of Heroes and give VIP accounts 1 free transfer a month... or discounted heavily.

That move would single-handedly solve server population issues very quickly. The players would effectively do the merging themselves. From that point forward, the developers could figure out if actual server mergers make sense... or if the server merger request is a short-lived fad simply because some people are too lazy to transfer servers.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

Sounds like we're off the topic of Aaron's letter and update and on to one that has its own thread elsewhere. Let's try to get back on topic.

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Is it okay if we talk about the new transfer option? It's a new thing that just recently appeared (today, if I'm not mistaken). It made me wonder if there is more related to this option that might be coming with 2014.

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Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave

I think the problem there is that, if I'm understanding you correctly, you were soloing old content. As in, taking your lvl 95 solo through Carn Dum or Urugarth or something. I've also done that and enjoyed the challenge. But I'm referring to landscape content that can't be soloed on level. There are a number of things in Angmar (like the spider raid) that can't be soloed on level and no one groups for it on level (or at least, I've never seen it happen on our server). If content is not actively run on level because it's too hard and there's not enough interest, then it shouldn't be that hard.

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You're not understanding me correctly. I was doing it on-level. I'd shout in /regional, and probably pull out my skirmish soldier to help (they're really cheap and highly useful at that level). Sometimes I could pull it off with just me and a soldier, other times, nope. But it was a close match and it was challenging and that's what I liked about it.

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Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave

A) I repeatedly say that I am a raider; why would I call myself out?)

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Some people make a point of including themselves into a demographic so they can validate their complaints/disagreements with the stated demographic. Not saying thats what you're doing, but I have known people to employ this tactic.

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Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave

But don't say so with extreme amounts of profanity and other vulgarity.

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I encourage people to report, report, report. Hopefully Turbine can get there early enough to just get rid of the offending post rather than having to nuke/lock the entire thread if it isn't already poisoned by the OPs post.


For the record. I probably turned down a grand total of 5 players for T1 Orthanc because of some apparent deficiency. And clearly I didnt always go over it with a fine toothed comb (as evidenced by having and completing more than one run where there was a player not using LIs!). Crafted gear/Rep Gear is really pretty good. Hytbold brought another alternative that said 'yeah, I'm willing to put in time' The 4 pieces of the draigoch set? That I'm not jumping straight from solo play to 12mans without spending some time in smaller groups learning how to be a team player. Yes, I took people to Orthanc where it wasn't only their first raid, it was their first group instance, but letting me see what I had to work with up front, let me know where I needed to provide extra assistance or instruction to help assure success.

I was much much picker when I was pugging T2 Flight. I knew the standards we had to at least come close to if we were going to pull it off. Because I had pulled it off, and was one of 12 people on Riddermark to have done so at the time, and just how narrowly victory was attained, I knew it was reasonably objective . Yeah. I turned away a lot of people for that one. But the people I brought were almost all willing to plug at it for HOURS on end because they felt like the team actually had a chance. We got better and better. Slowly, but surely.

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Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave

There is always a chance with PUGs, but I think that, as the saying goes, "judging a book by its cover" has no place in PUGs. People should be given a chance. What kind of message does it send to those new at raiding who get told, "Sorry, bro, but your virtues stink and your gear is so not up to standards." Even if that's followed by a dose of advice (even if it's a good dose of advice), it's hard to get past the initial shock and sting.

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There are players who skirmish most of the way to level cap. It's one thing not to have capped virtues. Its another for your highest ranked virtue to be a 4-5 (out of 10). Especially when it's one that isn't even class appropriate. The same thing goes for players wearing light armor on a heavy class, as if they picked it purely for the cosmetic and equipped it. [Nope, I'm not making that one up, it really happened] Or another case would be someone asking to go along on a T2 raid without having all of their Trait slots (now it'd be class set bonuses) unlocked, or very few in a critical role (healer/tank) for a T1 slot.

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Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave

What would get under my skin is when people would expect everyone to have, for example, at least 3 pieces of gear from Set A. It's a horrible catch-22. You need X in order to join us. You get X by joining us. You do not have X, so you are not joining us. See what I mean?

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I think you'd find that's a straw man. No one logically expects you to have gear that you have to do a T1 run to complete to run T1, unless its a progressively gated raid and you're looking to jump into the end of it. One example would be requiring you to have some T1 wing completions/gear before doing Saurman T1. It's perfectly reasonable to require T1 gear before going on T2.

I won't say that there aren't some emotional players just looking to make up any reason they can not to invite a person, but they are few and far between.

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Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave

You are also probably the only other Riddermark person who is active on the forums -- in the very least, the only one I'm aware of -- so I'm usually pretty interested to read what you have to say, and probably much of the time I agree with it. :)

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While it's one thing to read someone's posts because they're from the same community, the server I'm from doesn't bring any kind of weight to my opinions. They're my own.

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Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave

Coupled with the knowledge that many of those brand new accounts are actually dupe accounts made by existing members so that they can complain in the safety of anonymity. Sapience has said (can't remember where) that this has been happening recently.

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Its generally vary easy to tell when such sock-puppets are pulled out. Usually its to appeal or reference a moderation action (in violation of COC). Otherwise,the argument is generally an appeal to unverifiable statements or a straw-man used to make the opponents argument look weak.

There's no reason to do much other than argue the merits of a position. No need to speak as if you're the spokesman for a collective whole unless you can back that up with facts.

For example: My statement about 0.15% of users likely providing 50% of the revenue was based on http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/02/...n-game-revenue and a subsequent conversation I had with a PC MMO developer about whether or not there were likely substantive differences between the two markets.

Edit:

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Originally Posted by Sapience

Sounds like we're off the topic of Aaron's letter and update and on to one that has its own thread elsewhere. Let's try to get back on topic.

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I'm sorry I didn't read this before my latest reply. I'll stop here. I hope you can appreciate that some of us hope that +Rowan's return signals the potential for a change in development direction, and that difficulty, and group contents are topics that players are passionate about. Someone said that because ~<1% of players fund most of the development that should give developers latitude to please the other 99%. I just want my friends to be pleased with the direction of the game and return.

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Originally Posted by Crell_1

I encourage people to report, report, report. Hopefully Turbine can get there early enough to just get rid of the offending post rather than having to nuke/lock the entire thread if it isn't already poisoned by the OPs post.

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There has become somewhat of a trend to derail a thread to get it locked when its not going the way some may wish. Going forward, the effort spent trying to derail a thread to the point of getting it locked will be less effective. Removing posts and those who feel they cannot post in an appropriate manner or choose to employ this tactic will happen more often.

@Crell - Any time you are looking for another person for some content, let me know. :) Fayah is my group toon, though I'm willing to bring any of my level-cap toons if a different class is needed.

Still not sure whether Sapience was meaning the transfer topic was off-topic or not... so in light of that uncertainty...

Could the dev(s) in charge of the ND/T/MM revamps be willing to sit down with us and explain what we can expect? I'm excited about all three in general, but worry when T/MM weren't important enough to mention in this letter. I understand that they won't be revamped to such an extent as ND -- could that extent be clarified? What kind of revamp are we looking at for ND, and to what lesser degree are T/MM expected to be?