Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scenario

Most of our updates next year will be focused on advancing our narrative through the landscape - which means more level cap regions can be expected. We'll be starting that journey in some familiar spaces, and then moving into unknown territory as the story progresses!

---

So this thread will likely try to guess the familiar spaces of the new journey and the unfamiliar ones. It's very funny to know that you were reading it all the time. Probably you laughed a lot at it!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scenario

You don't see the bugs we receive from new players who are confused by level 50 Half-orcs steamrolling their level 12s. I'm not saying we should never do things like this, but I do think that we need to be thoughtful when we do. I think its important that if we ever do something like that, that it isn't a surprise - its not a gotcha moment, that players have an opportunity to survey the field before them before falling into peril. Swanfleet, for example, borders areas that are considerably higher level than it - and we're hoping that our use of geography will help indicating crossing over into more hostile territories. But its really hard to know how successful that will be until its in the hands of someone with fresh eyes. You, and most people here on the message boards, have too much experience with the game to really see it that way. You know the lay of the land and known what walking into existing, more dangerous areas means to you and your character.

---

I understand that it can be annoying for new players. But from lv 50 onward you have played enough to get used to the game (at lv 50 I ventured into Dunland and I was one-shot, so I learnt what I couldn't do). So if a player were in Gondor at 95-100 and were one-shot in the borders of a lv 140 new zone (like Harondor), I don't think that would make the devs receive any bug.

Thank you again for all your hard work and your willingness to explain it in the casual strolls.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by provamail10

So this thread will likely try to guess the familiar spaces of the new journey and the unfamiliar ones. It's very funny to know that you were reading it all the time. Probably you laughed a lot at it!

---

It's always interesting to see just how confident some people are on what they think we are making. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by provamail10

I understand that it can be annoying for new players. But from lv 50 onward you have played enough to get used to the game (at lv 50 I ventured into Dunland and I was one-shot, so I learnt what I couldn't do). So if a player were in Gondor at 95-100 and were one-shot in the borders of a lv 140 new zone (like Harondor), I don't think that would make the devs receive any bug.

---

Lothlorien and Vales of Anduin were really the first time we'd had two extremely differently leveled regions coming up against each other, so we wanted to be very cautious about it. Again, the thought we are putting into it is more about the perspective of a brand new player, not someone who has been in the game for a while.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scenario

Again, the thought we are putting into it is more about the perspective of a brand new player, not someone who has been in the game for a while.

---

No argument there. New player experience seem$ to alway$ be paramount over the experience$ of your exi$ting customer$ the$e day$.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scenario

Like I said, we want to be thoughtful about how we handle those sorts of borders when it comes to level disparity. It is vitally important to think about it in areas that are specifically intended for new players. As a player gets more experience in a game, they have a greater sense of where they are going and the kinds of threats to expect, and those kinds of boundaries could require less specific efforts on our part to avoid player frustration.

---

Baugarch sends his regards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LagunaD2

Baugarch sends his regards.

---

Baugarch is slightly over leveled for the area it is in, sure, but a level 15 elite in a level 10-12ish area is not the same thing as level 40, 60 or 140 creatures next door to the area. Baugarch is an example of an aspirational challenge. Something that is just out of reach that, with a handful of levels, could be met. Some classes might not be as survivable with their first accidental encounter with it compared to others, but there is a greater potential to disengage and escape than there is from creatures that would just flat out one-shot a low level character.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scenario

It's always interesting to see just how confident some people are on what they think we are making. :)

---

Yep........... and in this case......... I'm totally going to take advantage of this moment. It's kind of cool and rarely happens to me:


I GOT IT RIGHT! YAY!!! XD !!!

Hahahahahahahaha :) I didn't get the level-range right of course; but the idea that the whole landmass was coming in one bulk? Yep!!!!!!!!!! hehehehehehehehe!

I have to give you and the team a ton of kudos. I'm already just in sheer awe I couldn't see the Angle from the Gloomglens and that the Great South Road looked so far away down those cliffs! And........ to top that off....... the maps confirm that's...... near the bottom of the zone?

I'm very curious now. Of the landscape updates you've done, would you say this is the most large?

Here are some zones to compare with:

West Gondor
East Gondor
West Rohan
East Rohan
Gorgoroth / Mordor
Strongholds of the North
Dwarf-holds
Vales of Anduin
Gundabad

To me....... I'm really getting a sense it's.............. in the "Rohan / Gorgoroth" bucket as far as it's sheer size and scale goes.......... and to be fair, those were some fairly large chunks of landscape. I'd say Strongholds is comparable if we factor in the Dol Guldor ruins and the whole breadth of Long Lake. I'm just talking sheer mileage.

Am very curious...... what do you think? Is "Before the Shadow" the biggest single landscape addition to the game?

Cheers! :D

I think the biggest problem with Baugarch isn't so much him being a lvl 15 elite, it's that if you do have to run from him there are so many Blackwolds creeping around the bushes and walking the paths that you will run into them and they'll finish you off. I don't want to see it changed though :).

Baugarch is fine once you know he's there (just as experienced players know where the boundaries between different level zones are).

But for a new player, I'm not sure being ganked by Baugarch or being ganked by a much higher-level mob feels much different.

My first encounter with him (back in 2008) ended *very* quickly...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scenario

You don't see the bugs we receive from new players who are confused by level 50 Half-orcs steamrolling their level 12s. I'm not saying we should never do things like this, but I do think that we need to be thoughtful when we do. I think its important that if we ever do something like that, that it isn't a surprise - its not a gotcha moment, that players have an opportunity to survey the field before them before falling into peril.

---

Well, never said no to opportunities to survey the field though. I guess you can just have mobs further away from borders or even put out signs that say danger and then give them some lore flavor. Really curious to see how you've done it in Swanfleet!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scenario

Swanfleet, for example, borders areas that are considerably higher level than it - and we're hoping that our use of geography will help indicating crossing over into more hostile territories. But its really hard to know how successful that will be until its in the hands of someone with fresh eyes. You, and most people here on the message boards, have too much experience with the game to really see it that way. You know the lay of the land and known what walking into existing, more dangerous areas means to you and your character.

Like I said, we want to be thoughtful about how we handle those sorts of borders when it comes to level disparity. It is vitally important to think about it in areas that are specifically intended for new players. As a player gets more experience in a game, they have a greater sense of where they are going and the kinds of threats to expect, and those kinds of boundaries could require less specific efforts on our part to avoid player frustration.

---

Actually, I do realize it may be not as obvious to new players but a part of me wonders whether it's really that important and whether people who may choose to scream about it in bug reports aren't just slightly... overdramatic. Granted, I don't know how important these particular players may be for the business model so... if you think this requires a test then of course do a test. However, that's probably hard to do. Well, maybe you can make some observations with Swanfleet, if enough fresh players will engage with it. Or just wonders off from different, lower lvl zones. All I know is that a big franchise such as AC doesn't shy away from some huge lvl spikes between zones (or higher lvl enemies in a lower lvl zone) so maybe that's telling and there is really not much to worry about. Unless of course the demographics of LOTRO are like super different and has crowds of people who never even played such titles as AC games. Hmm, that's interesting, actually, wonder if your analytics people have any way of knowing something like that :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scenario

Exploration and progression are not necessarily linked together. Ideally, there's some incentive to explore, but often the explorer-types do so out of a desire to see the world, to climb the next peak. That is their reward.

---

In the existing reality that's the only reward, yes... but this is only how it works because LOTRO doesn't really provide any opportunities to gain exp by merely exploring so there is no way you can jump from region to region in free-style, not even jump from one part of the zone to another part. Even if you did that and had your fill of exploration - you always gotta go back to hubs and follow the path of the storyline to get exp gains, only then you can move forward. So it's a bit of back and forth, not a more natural flow, and essentially forces you to play the game x2 in both styles at once. Not every player might like the annoyance of such experience and even if you have the patience for it because Middle-earth calls out to you... that's like 2x time you need to spend to level up, but then again, Valar up is boring to one shoot everything and exp grinding not during travels is boring too. I'm sure I would be playing my alts more regularly - plus many other people would enjoy playing alts more and some new people would simply give this game a try rather than dismiss it after a few days - if there was a way to free-roam in a more meaningful way with some progression attached. Now, it doesn't mean I would like the game to "switch gears" because I do enjoy your storytelling and what the linearity of it allows you do with extensive storylines in regions or beyond, but I'm sure there could be ways to eventually introduce some more landscape content, either with quests that are standalone or repeatable, or attaching exp points to something like exploration deeds maybe. Or ideally a mixture of all.

So what I'm really saying isn't that there isn't any joy in exploration without progression/exp reward, only that the increasing size of the world and your commendable willingness to grow it/remove some outdated borders between regions makes it even more and more appealing as this grand fest of open-world free-style exploration... given the toolset. A player, even a fresh player, would find so much more joy in casual exploration of the Swanfleet (that they accidentally bumped into from Lonelands, by pure chance) if there were standalone exp gains they could just run into in the wild, without the entire hub/quest chain mechanic attached (so main story is important component and sometimes necessary but not always and you can basically forge a path of your own). Not to mention if the Middle-earth received more of such opportunities at large - this would elevate things to completely another level someday and if you guys are ever planning some meaningful graphic updates, which might be even yeeears from now I'm not saying soon, that would be like a KILLER combo to invigorate the game. Wouldn't play nothing else but LOTRO and lost myself in Middle-earth utterly and completely :D
So all I'm saying is eventually, because time constraints and all, but maybe it's something to keep in mind and brain storm as you open up the world more and move it away from the old school mmo design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scenario

To that end, and one of the things that I am very proud of with Swanfleet and Cardolan, is the traversability of both regions. Excluding the region impassables, there's very little within those regions that you can't see and climb up to. Breeland, Lone-lands, Trollshaws, Eregion, and (to a much lesser extent) Enedwaith are all very openly connected to these two new regions. Speaking from an exploration (and world design) perspective, that is very exciting and helps move a significant portion of Eriador out of the "fishbowl/theme-park" design the exemplified MMOs of that era.

---

And that's certainly something we're all looking forward too!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scenario

And had we the time for it, those were things we'd like to have considered as well. But our team is only so big, and we only have so much time for development of updates which means sometimes things have to go on the cutting room floor. I do think that the work we've done over the last year has shown that we have an interest in expanding on the existing game world - which means that addressing those wants is not a case of us not wanting to do it but a case of finding the right time and opportunity to do so.

---

Ah, I didn't really know it was due to time constraints with Yondershire, I thought it was just how you imagined it looking geographically in the game-lore. I wasn't even particularly bothered by how Yondershire turned out, was only a minor issue anyway. I was merely trying to say you shouldn't be afraid of more open borders because I thought that's still kind of a philosophy that holds a sway over you, glad to hear it is not so! Now, about these Goblin Town tunnels and the missing connection... that one bothers me a lot more :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phantion

Am very curious...... what do you think? Is "Before the Shadow" the biggest single landscape addition to the game?

---

Cardolan and Swanfleet comprise more terrain than the Plateau of Gorgoroth in Mordor, and much more traversable space. This update will certainly be one of the largest landmasses introduced in any update. I'd have to sit down with the history books and calculator to accurately compare though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scenario

Cardolan and Swanfleet comprise more terrain than the Plateau of Gorgoroth in Mordor, and much more traversable space. This update will certainly be one of the largest landmasses introduced in any update. I'd have to sit down with the history books and calculator to accurately compare though.

---

I can't wait to hear the quest count.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scenario

Cardolan and Swanfleet comprise more terrain than the Plateau of Gorgoroth in Mordor, and much more traversable space. This update will certainly be one of the largest landmasses introduced in any update. I'd have to sit down with the history books and calculator to accurately compare though.

---

Awesome! Thanks :D

http://lotromap.net/terrainmap/google.html

From what I can see there . . . it looks like it just might be. The only contenders, just looking at the overview map from Garan, I can see are West Rohan, West Gondor, and Strongholds of the North (*and East Rohan + Wildermore when combined).

West Rohan mainly because of the Eastfold spur (*and if we counted Flooded Isengard / Entwood.............. then yeah.......... ).
Strongholds only if we count terrain you can't traverse (*there's a whole chunk of Northern Mirkwood that's inaccessible north of Felegoth / south of Ered Mithrin).
West Gondor only if we count the sea, Cape of Belfalas, and Tarlang even though you can't climb it ( LOL I know!)
Come to think of it, even East Rohan and Wildermore put together look a little smaller...................

---

By my humble guestimation...... I think it is the biggest single contiguous landscape update in the game's history that has a ton of traversability - especially with the expansion north to the Lone-lands and northwest to the Angle along with the missing chunk of "West Eregion." Let's just say that, *winks.* :D I'm very excited for it! :D Also because it finally makes Eriador's coastal lands and Druwaith Iaur / Andrast / "Far Gondor" seem an actual do-able thing in-game versus a pipe-dream!

I mean: Imagine a LOTRO where you could follow the coast from Forochel to Umbar. Hilarious to imagine, no? Hehehehehe :D

I also have a contender for a zone I fully think is possible now . . . if not a level-cap area that's do-able because of the very rigged nature of the landscape. I'm imagining a "Gondor" zone that finally gives us the little missing spot in the Anduin next to Mouths of Entwash, chops down the artificial reed-walls from the eastern Mouths of Entwash south of Rauros, includes an expanded Wetwang that connects to the level 100 Dead Marshes, and which finally gives us Emyn Muil and Amon Lhaw on the eastern side of Nen Hithoel. Obviously, there'd be a portal from Zone 2 Rhovanion into Zone 3 Gondor, probably on the eastern shores of Nen Hithoel somewhere, maybe a quest involving placements of grappling hooks / ropes to climb up and down certain spaces like the rope ladders in Lothlorien, and I could well see, ultimately, a very rugged and difficult to navigate pass to follow Frodo and Sam and Gollum's footsteps down to the ravine and into the level 100 Dead Marshes, which already connects with the Wastes. I could also see a somewhat expanded Dead Marshes looping around and having another portal exit into the Wastes closer to Lang Rhuven . . . and just making that whole neck of the woods feel . . . fuller. It could probably get away with being a level 95 - 100 area . . . a sort of alternative to West Gondor.

My pitch for the region is mainly: A) - It would finish Frodo - Sam - Gollum's story while on their Quest; B) - It would finally finish players' ability to follow the full River Anduin from its headwaters near the entrance to Car Bronach all the way down to where it enters the Bay of Belfalas . . . no more cutting corners around the Beacon Hills; C) - It would finally fully realize the missing massive landscape spaces Frodo and Sam had to traverse to get from East Wall to the Dead Marshes . . . let alone across those to the Noman-lands, Slag-hills, and Black Gate. D) - It would be easy enough to use Emyn Muil as a "distant imposter" for any further landscape development to its north on the Rhovanion side, just as in the current Wastes region. There probably wouldn't be a northern pass or an easy way to by-pass that rough road without getting very noticed by the Enemy - hence why Frodo and Sam --- had --- to take that Emyn Muil route to get eastward.

Would it be a landscape challenge with all those different main map zones coming together? Yes . . . but seeing what I'm seeing with Swanfleet / Cardolan . . . I have full confidence that area could be very much revisited and filled-out and feel a ton more coherent with the game-world; there would be a portal entrance from Wetwang into North Ithilien, we already have Dead Marshes into the Wastes, and etc. Zone 3 Gondor would be my recommendation for that one mainly because North Ithilien and the Wastes, while on the Mordor map, are much further away . . . versus a nearly adjacent Far Anorien and Dead Marshes in the Gondor region. Just some food for thought for the future :)

Cheers! :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scenario

Exploration and progression are not necessarily linked together. Ideally, there's some incentive to explore, but often the explorer-types do so out of a desire to see the world, to climb the next peak. That is their reward. Their progression is a more fulfilled knowledge of the game world they are in. To that end, and one of the things that I am very proud of with Swanfleet and Cardolan, is the traversability of both regions. Excluding the region impassables, there's very little within those regions that you can't see and climb up to. Breeland, Lone-lands, Trollshaws, Eregion, and (to a much lesser extent) Enedwaith are all very openly connected to these two new regions. Speaking from an exploration (and world design) perspective, that is very exciting and helps move a significant portion of Eriador out of the "fishbowl/theme-park" design the exemplified MMOs of that era.

---

Thank you, Scenario. I have to admit world building in Lotro is the best of all MMORPGs especially latest regions. Thank you for this big alive world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by auximenes

I think the biggest problem with Baugarch isn't so much him being a lvl 15 elite, it's that if you do have to run from him there are so many Blackwolds creeping around the bushes and walking the paths that you will run into them and they'll finish you off. I don't want to see it changed though :).

---

Baugarch is fine. It's when there are 2-3 Baugarchs roaming on top of each other than the real fun begins. :cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scenario

It's always interesting to see just how confident some people are on what they think we are making. :)

---

I'm never confident I know what you're making, lol. But I do enjoy speculating and coming up with ideas! I'm an explorer type, and part of the fun of the game for me is trying to guess where we're going next. I imagine the same is true for many of us here. :)
The writer in me also can't help but extrapolate stories and possible directions, and LOTRO is a game uniquely suited for that! That said, I've frequently imagined the team sitting around and laughing when I contribute to this thread, lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scenario

Most of our updates next year will be focused on advancing our narrative through the landscape - which means more level cap regions can be expected. We'll be starting that journey in some familiar spaces, and then moving into unknown territory as the story progresses!

---

And the speculation begins anew! I can imagine all sorts of possibilities for what these "familiar spaces" might be. I've wondered sometimes if our route to Harad might take us through a sunlit, post-battle version of South Ithilien, or if we might get a post-battle version of Central/Western Gondor on our way to lands further west. Or this could simply refer to returning to somewhere like Minas Tirith or Erebor to touch base before we head somewhere new. Or we could get a Tales of Yore version of somewhere we've already been, or--probably unlikely, but it's a possibility--we could finally begin our journey back to Eriador.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scenario

One of the hardest parts about introducing level-cap landscape in Eriador is how it plays with the content surrounding it. It doesn't feel great to have a level 140 region right next to a level 30 region. We haven't completely avoided this in the past. Lothlorien and Vales of Anduin are an example of level disparity between adjacent regions. We made the conscious decision to have very limited access between the two just to make it harder for those "oops and now I'm at a rally point" moments for lower level players. Trying to avoid those kinds of experiences is even more important at the lower levels as newer players may not understand what happened and may think the game is being extremely punitive to them for simply exploring.

---

LOTRO is the first MMO I played for more than one weekend, so I was very naive about the way MMOs worked when I started playing. It took me an embarrassingly long time to realize why different enemies' names were different colors, and I imagine I had a lot of unnecessary deaths as a result, lol. I do think it's worth keeping in mind that it will take players a while to learn to be careful where they wander; it's a shame, though, that that necessarily places limits on how the world can be designed. LOTRO's world feels best, I think, where the boundaries are few and organic in nature, so it's a shame when players have to be corralled away from danger or that the business of filling in the gaps and the business of expanding the endgame are necessarily at odds with each other.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scenario

I would definitely expect it to happen but I can't speak to the timing yet. Both regions are something I am very excited to show off - I think we've achieved something really special with the landscape, in terms of how it looks and in terms of our development process behind it (which I am looking forward to applying to our future new regions!)

---

I'm looking forward to seeing what you've created! I'm especially happy to hear how open and connected and accessible everything in these regions is, both within the regions and in terms of the rest of Eriador. :)

In his livestream today, Severlin gave this hint about where we might be going after Cardolan and Swanfleet: "If you like the smell of salt water, you may be pleased in the coming year."

There aren't too many regions that might be hinting at. :) My guess is that we'll get Anfalas and Tolfalas in the spring, which will reintroduce the Corsairs (it wouldn't be surprising to know there are still some stragglers out there), and that story thread will take us south through Harad toward Umbar. A fall 2023 expansion based around the borderlands of South Gondor could have potential. A few other possibilities come to mind, which seem less likely to me: we could continue following the coast west from Anfalas, or we could reach the coast via Minhiriath or the Grey Havens (the latter two options seem unlikely, since either one would mean placing a lvl 140 area adjacent to a starter area). At a stretch, the Sea of Nurn or the (still quite distant) Sea of Rhun could potentially be salt water seas. My money, though, is on a southward journey over the next few years, perhaps with a detour through parts of Gondor.

Western Gondor? Harad? What sense would that make? There was literally no build-up to go that way yet (other than a few largely insignificant things that can wait, just like Frodo does). Corsairs sticking around would also be unlikely, they're not like orcs who can just hide in the mountains and come back again to be a reoccurring menace until dealt with properly. Also, there wouldn't be any corsairs there. Azruthor was left behind specifically to conquer Anfalas while the rest of the fleet sailed East - which means this is where they landed, they never sailed through Anfalas coastline but immediately turned towards Dol Amroth. And Azruthor forces were scattered and slayed by the rogue Othbreakers, presumably... if they weren't, well... that would be The End for defenseless Anfalas.

My guess would be Nurn then, or - indeed - Rhun (which had like a lot of build-up). I would prefer Nurn though... gotta deal with Mordor right? And Borangos planning something under Mount Doom... sounds pretty important no?

Though, there is also a possibility they're doing expansive Minhiriath, as a follow-up from Cardolan/Swanfleet but maybe cap area this time. This may sound far-fetched, I know, but there is a possibility this might tie somehow into Frodo's journey back home like we thought Carolan was going to (with our PC doing some scouting etc) + they have all these Angmar 2.0 plots to tackle, at the very least Drugoth may venture there for reasons, and they can always go back to some of the forgotten plot threads like Corudan

Btw, if it turns out it's Harad - all plot reasons aside, and how insane it sounds to focus our attention on brand new mysteries and twists when there is a list of significant plot threads in need of attention from our heroes - it would be pretty troubling since Scenario reveled a lot of cool things throughout his videos their artists may be still pretty busy with... and when they're busy with them, things such as cool shaders and automated tools to help with landscape, and whatnot, that means they've got less time to actually create brand new unique assets and structures (not to mention mobs) and Harad needs like A LOT of these. Well, to be fair, Rhun too. But in Rhun I can at least see them reusing a lot of redone Dunland/Easterling/Hillmen assets as needed, at least in tribal steppe areas. But for Harad... I would imagine something completely different in style

how about Nurn? Nurnen lake a big body of water, like irl Dead Sea. I have little hope left for either Harad or Rhun so I'll switch my goalpost to Nurn, and finish whatever loose threads we have left from Mordor

The stablemasters map was updated a few patches back and you can scroll it much further south. That's the obvious direction as far as I'm concerned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by auximenes

The stablemasters map was updated a few patches back and you can scroll it much further south. That's the obvious direction as far as I'm concerned.

---

Yup, I noticed this as well. I think we are getting Umbar.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by auximenes

The stablemasters map was updated a few patches back and you can scroll it much further south. That's the obvious direction as far as I'm concerned.

---

Yeah, that's a LOT of space down there. Enough for Umbar, Harandor, Near Harad, Far Harad, etc...

https://i.redd.it/g3xnw12cojo91.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gildhur

Yeah, that's a LOT of space down there. Enough for Umbar, Harandor, Near Harad, Far Harad, etc...

---

They added it a long time ago though, if I'm not mistaken. So who knows, maybe one of the artists just expanded the map *just in case* and obviously that's somewhere when they would inevitably like to go anyway

But I hope it's not a years-long journey South yet. LOTRO isn't just this shallow landscape museum but its stories as well. They're great writers able to introduce cool plot points and create expectations but these plot points should also be resolved in due time. Minas Morgul was great, because it handled some of these plot points well. But also introduced new ones... which I don't mind, because we gotta go to other parts of Mordor one day, obviously. Gundabad resolved just Hrimil, and dwarf matters, but what it did was actually introduce even more mysteries to the growing list. And now they would do Harad? For X years? Harad that is larger than two Rohans combined, mind you, with huge chunks of Gondor adjacent to it? Where they just gotta introduce a hella lot of new stuff and plot points ? What about old plot threads and dangers that appear quite important, from the POV of our hero and the characters?

Hmm, so I don't think it is going to be any significant journey towards Harad, unless they've gone quite insane (or one of the execs did and they just have no choice/say in the matter, which would be weird). Also, I know they're all like "no, don't imagine sailing boats will ever happen, unfeasible" right now but never say never because maybe if Orion manages to fix mounted combat (thus they'll have more profound knowledge about how to create such new game systems without causing stress on the game) boats may become more of a realistic concept. So why would they waste such a perfect coastline, expose themselves to the inevitable disappointment that would follow with some people so bad PR (no ships? can only just look at this ocean along the entire coastline? meh) and go contradictory to all storylines they introduced

In support of the Nurn theory, there's apparently been debate about whether the Sea of Nurn is a freshwater or saltwater sea. Saltwater seas and lakes are formed when the sea/lake don't have an outflow and the salt that would normally be carried into the ocean gathers in the lake instead. The water that flows into the evaporates, keeping the depth of the lake or sea relatively stable, but the salt stays behind. The Sea of Nurn seems to be such an "endorheic" sea, and so it makes sense that it would be saltwater. That probably would have come up while the devs were doing their research on Nurn.

When most people hear saltwater, though, they're going to think of the ocean, and for that reason I imagine Severlin meant to be teasing that we would be getting coastal areas sometime in the coming year. (And I'm not sure if the details of the Sea of Nurn's level of salinity would rise to his level anyway; that's information for the world builders and possibly the content designers to worry about.)

Going through the other options: the Sea of Rhun could also be an endorheic sea; the map doesn't show an outflow, so it could qualify as saltwater. I'm not sure if we know enough about the Sea of Rhun to know either way. Tolkien's map doesn't show an outflow, but that could just be because it's at the very edge of the map and the particulars of its watershed didn't really matter to any of the stories he was telling. Either way, I think it's unlikely we'll see the Sea of Rhun next year; it's just too far away. That said, this is probably the place I want to go the most, because I want to meet the Blue Wizards and I want to know ### is going on there! They've laid so much groundwork for Rhun and I'm eager to see it pay off. I kind of wonder if the plan at some point was to take it there next, but real-world events made it weird. Vidja games are an escape for a lot of people, and I'm not sure how much of an escape it would be for us to explore an inland sea nestled among the steppes that has been ravaged by a pandemic while age-old tensions between pseudo-Slavic peoples burst into the open. :/

The devs seem reluctant to take us to the Grey Havens in the near future, and they seem uninterested in developing Lindon at the moment. The decision to develop Cardolan and the Swanfleet seems to have been a relatively recent decision, so even if there weren't the issue of situating a lvl 140 zone next to a sub-30 zone, I doubt the roadmap for the endgame takes us to Minhiriath in the near future. And while the Harad Road will likely be our route through Harondor toward Harad and Umbar, it's considerably inland; and while I can imagine the rather sizeable area of Harondor being condensed into one area around the size of Cardolan and Swanfleet, I imagine it would come this fall and I don't know that the coastline would be its most interesting or prominent feature.

Which makes Anfalas and Tolfalas the most likely candidates. It's true, we haven't had the kind of groundwork laid for Western Gondor or Harad and Umbar that we've had for Rhun, Nurn, or even Forodwaith, but it would not be difficult to come up with a reason for us to go there. A pitch for one possible storyline, because that's what I do:

If we're returning to the epic storyline, where do we stand? The war ended a few weeks ago, and a mysterious man has reemerged from the mists of legend, been crowned king, and married a strange elven woman. There are probably three things on Aragorn's mind right now. His war-ravaged kingdom needs to rebuild; he needs to introduce himself to his people, especially those in the far reaches of Gondor; and he needs to ensure that his borders are secure and the war is truly over. So he goes on a goodwill tour, and we accompany him, helping people as we can, because that's what we do. (And yes, we never hear about this in the books; but we also never hear about Legolas and Gimli's adventures in Mordor, or Gandalf's trip to Erebor, or the fact that the dwarves have a whole friggin' war in Gundabad.) That takes us to Anfalas, with some stops in Central and Western Gondor (the "familiar spaces" Scenario referred to).

While we're there, the corsairs attack, because Aragorn never made peace with them the way he did with the Haradrim and Easterlings (I'm guessing, at least; the corsairs wouldn't have been involved in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.) Umbar has millennia-old beef with Gondor; the Black Numenoreans have been stirring up trouble all over Middle Earth; and in real-world history piracy tends to thrive in the aftermath of war, when sailors involved in the war turn to other means of supporting themselves. It makes sense that they wouldn't back down as the Haradrim and Easterlings. So we investigate on Aragorn's behalf and find out that the Corsairs have been using Tolfalas, a mostly-uninhabited island, as a staging ground for their raids. Aragorn can't send an army marching to Umbar without provoking the Haradrim, who he's just made peace with; so we and a few others who Aragorn trusts go south to sabotage Umbar as best we can. Along the way, we deal with the Haradrim and learn about the complexities of their world. We don't know much about Harad; it may not be a unified, centralized empire, but a collection of distinct peoples with different ideologies, much like we've learned that the various peoples of Rhun are very different from one another. There may be rivalries between the different states or ethnic groups of Harad. There may be opportunistic rebels who've taken action while the army was distracted by the war. There may be factions or leaders vying for power. Some groups might still be loyal to Sauron; some might never have willingly allied themselves with Sauron; some might be allied with the Umbarrim. Some people will want to accept Aragorn's offer of peace; but some old soldiers never stop fighting, and will resent a peace treaty. There might be Black Numenoreans manipulating people behind the scenes, or one of the Gurzyul might be up to mischief. The devs seem to love this sort of storytelling, if their handling of the Lossoth, the Dunlendings, the peoples of Rhun, and the various factions of dwarves are any indication. There are endless possibilities for interesting stories on the road to Umbar, and plenty of potential for us to get into conflict along the way.

So I don't think it matters that we haven't seen much setup for a southward journey. It's easy to build up the story as you go.

TesalionLortus does raise a good point; Harad would require a lot of new assets. But those assets would likely be phased in over time. Anfalas and Tolfalas, if we're going there first, could use existing assets. Harondor is old Gondorian territory; it could rely heavily on existing assets as well. And realistically, there would be some blending of cultures, perhaps with a few Haradrim settlements in Harondor and a few Gondorian ruins in the nearer parts of Harad. The transition to desert and jungle should be similarly gradual. The existing Haradrim cultural assets give them a bit of a head start too. And this, of course, is assuming that the artists haven't already been at work making new assets with the knowledge that this is coming. As for the graphics update, it sounds like they're working with an external company on that, so I'm not sure how much of SSG's existing art team is involved in that.

All this said, I think it's entirely possible that we head west from Anfalas toward the Cape of Andrast, etc. There's not as much to work with in that direction in terms of story, which is what makes me think it's less likely; but again, it's not difficult to come up with stories. And this would certainly be a tempting direction to go for a team that seems interested in building out the core map of Middle Earth; it's also probably a smaller commitment than the Harad story, which would likely take a few years to tell.

ETA: Forgot to mention that the Heirs of Castamir, a direct reference to Umbar, were mentioned in the first book of Vollume V, but without much development or any resolution. That seems like another hint that the story will be moving us to Umbar. Volume V is called "The Peace of Middle Earth"; that could mean that the overarching theme of the volume will be safeguarding the peace, in which case I think a focus on Harad would make sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

They added it a long time ago though, if I'm not mistaken. So who knows, maybe one of the artists just expanded the map *just in case* and obviously that's somewhere when they would inevitably like to go anyway

---

If they were developing to the east then if the staff only had time to expand the stablemasters map either south or east I think it's a safe bet they would have expanded it east and not south.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by auximenes

If they were developing to the east then if the staff only had time to expand the stablemasters map either south or east I think it's a safe bet they would have expanded it east and not south.

---

Maybe it was just easier to expand South symbolically, while for East they need to be sure where to place geographical features and whether (and where) the mountain chain beyond Rhun should be found on this map in relation to the sea? So decided to wait? Who knows for real, even if they were to go South they would still need to update that map with more detailed representation because it's just a very basic outline, uniformly colored so far.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by seekingerin

They've laid so much groundwork for Rhun and I'm eager to see it pay off. I kind of wonder if the plan at some point was to take it there next, but real-world events made it weird. Vidja games are an escape for a lot of people, and I'm not sure how much of an escape it would be for us to explore an inland sea nestled among the steppes that has been ravaged by a pandemic while age-old tensions between pseudo-Slavic peoples burst into the open. :/

---

In all honesty, that really would have been silly and unnecessary. My impression is we're already past the "crisis" in question and any sort of situation that you might point at and tell me that we are... I guarantee will last for years on end, probably, so what? They should just hold out on Rhun forever? Doubt it. Doesn't sound reasonable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by seekingerin

The decision to develop Cardolan and the Swanfleet seems to have been a relatively recent decision, so even if there weren't the issue of situating a lvl 140 zone next to a sub-30 zone, I doubt the roadmap for the endgame takes us to Minhiriath in the near future.

---

If surprising (even for the devs, apparently) focus on low level areas is of any indication (or Cardolan/Swanfleet as mini expansion!) I would say they don't really have a road map other than general ideas and story outlines for what they might do next. But in terms of making an actual decision where? Probably not something they are certain in advance, no long-term plan here that says "in 1-1,5 year we start developing Harad and next year or so after release it's gonna be only Harad content" The predictions already frozen in stone with 100% commitment towards it are shorter term, not that far in advance. Probably.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by seekingerin

Which makes Anfalas and Tolfalas the most likely candidates. It's true, we haven't had the kind of groundwork laid for Western Gondor or Harad and Umbar that we've had for Rhun, Nurn, or even Forodwaith, but it would not be difficult to come up with a reason for us to go there. A pitch for one possible storyline, because that's what I do:

If we're returning to the epic storyline, where do we stand? The war ended a few weeks ago, and a mysterious man has reemerged from the mists of legend, been crowned king, and married a strange elven woman. There are probably three things on Aragorn's mind right now. His war-ravaged kingdom needs to rebuild; he needs to introduce himself to his people, especially those in the far reaches of Gondor; and he needs to ensure that his borders are secure and the war is truly over. So he goes on a goodwill tour, and we accompany him, helping people as we can, because that's what we do.
That takes us to Anfalas, with some stops in Central and Western Gondor (the "familiar spaces" Scenario referred to).

---

That could work, yes. But then again... there should be dwarves in the mountains above and they said done with dwarfs. So hmm. Either way, don't make it lead to Umbar/Harad because we have stories to resolve, which was one of my main points, and waiting for any progress on all these matters (for 4+ years) while our character just goes off wondering into distant lands far South for less urgent reasons... sounds weird to say the least! Expansive years long storytelling is OK in a game like this but... there should be some amount of reason and restrain too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by seekingerin

or the fact that the dwarves have a whole friggin' war in Gundabad.

---

And not just in Gundabad, since supply lines routes run all across Eriador, the Vales and towards Ered Mithrin and Erebor. Also, it involved an elder dragon that was done with a nap, freed and proudly announced herself to the world... she was confined to Gundabad and that's where she perished, so ok, but still, the whole war happened. This one is like the most narrative breaking one, I'm still eagerly awaiting Gimli's reaction and his excuse, or literally anyone else from the surrounding world to react to the fact. That's quite a pickle they've got themselves into here... and I hope we're not getting more of this! The game has a lot of strange things with time compression but some of it is the "game thing" and of lesser impact, plus woven nicely around the book canon, the suspension of disbelief used to work just fine! But you know it's all gotten a bit onto a wrong track if I can't imagine any of these important characters reasonably/believably reacting to everything that happened. Like, some skirmishes spilled into Eriador, which is essentially Aragorn's kingdom now, or Thranduil and Dale should have been worried too, not to mention Gimli. Gandalf is Gandalf and he may have even more important things to figure out, like that balrog statue. But it'll take some good writing to make it all work believably with the rest of the characters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by seekingerin

While we're there, the corsairs attack, because Aragorn never made peace with them the way he did with the Haradrim and Easterlings (I'm guessing, at least; the corsairs wouldn't have been involved in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.)

and in real-world history piracy tends to thrive in the aftermath of war, when sailors involved in the war turn to other means of supporting themselves. It makes sense that they wouldn't back down as the Haradrim and Easterlings. So we investigate on Aragorn's behalf and find out that the Corsairs have been using Tolfalas, a mostly-uninhabited island, as a staging ground for their raids.

---

Except said pirates were part of an army that was defeated... and most of them lost their ships too... There is certainly infrastructure and spare ships in Umbar but not enough to just empty the city and throw everything and everyone right back on the frontlines in Gondor. So they're in the same boat as Harad or worse. Aragorn made peace with Far Harad, so technically he is still in war with Harad (so it's just this unofficial ceasefire thing when the two sides are too busy with recovery - or internal matters - to think of another war). Corsairs should be nowhere near a threat at this moment in time, without the passage of time (like years), they've been badly beaten, their ships were taken, their men slayed by ghosts, guess what something like this does to your morale... Any possible threats might be just scavenger pirates of some kind but at best they could only manage to be these disorganized "every captain for himself!" brave opportunist raiders, nowhere near to what we saw in Gondor Aflame storyline. Well, maybe if Tolfalas was actually taken by Balakhor on his way towards Gondor? Maybe something can be done with that, because some of them still hold it? Maybe. But I'm not sure, it would have made sense they made this journey on open sea and landed right next to Tarlang's Crown and then turned right - if I'm not mistaking something from the lore here, remember, they were this secret plan, an invasion from another front. Taking Tolfalas would have alarmed everyone in Gondor to their arrival and potentially the size of their force prematurely... so I don't think so!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by seekingerin

Aragorn can't send an army marching to Umbar without provoking the Haradrim, who he's just made peace with; so we and a few others who Aragorn trusts go south to sabotage Umbar as best we can.

---

It could work if they were actually a threat that matters atm. But they simply can't be. Not very believable story hook. Also, Aragorn shouldn't be thinking of sending any army or serious muscles and infiltrators under his banner (official or not) after he just announced the time of peace. Maybe in a few years or more after things settle but right now would kinda go against his character? Even if it's just "helping Jajax" to rebel against the Heirs... from Aragorn's POV he would be just replacing one pirate lord with another, so there is no motivation for him to do that because they're no threat anyway for now, plus our character seems like they have more important matters to tackle closer to home that need immediate attention.

Rhun could work because there are mysterious things going on there, with a surplus of refugees from further East too (maybe new armies can be raised from forced recruits? not just natives). Also, with the Easterlings, the defeat they suffered at Erebor wasn't of the supernatural kind, had a lot to do with crushed morale, there was less cavalry involved (the retreat and being effectively chased is a lot of casualties, so more of them survived probably.) Plus Rhun is its own isolated pocket above Mordor that doesn't concern Gondor in the slightest right now but still important for our character in relation to some major Mordor players and - likely - another dragon, so easier to justify a solo excursion into

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by seekingerin

So I don't think it matters that we haven't seen much setup for a southward journey. It's easy to build up the story as you go.

---

It matters a lot because there is no immediate need for that story just yet... with so many others unfinished and Frodo still at MT. That's my worry. So it's very interesting. I wonder when they'll tell us what's coming next