It's called Level Sync, Square Enix can show you how to do it. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by floon
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It's called Level Sync, Square Enix can show you how to do it. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by floon
Because whenever they possibly can, game developers try to design CS calls out of the game completely. According to Raph Koster, Customer Service eats up 20-30% of total revenues for the MMOs he's worked on, so it's a huge deal for them. Over and over and over again, he'd explain why they were doing X or Y (or not doing X or Y) in SWG by saying "because that reduces our customer service calls".Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticAurora
If horse races really do generate a lot of tickets and if Turbine had some notion up front that they would... they'd very likely have designed them quite differently, trying to minimize the tickets they'd get. That's a non-trivial part of the designer's job, and even just closing trivial tickets can suck up a lot of time if the volumes are high.
That said, I think a portion of that concern for the "XP off" feature is addressable without much complexity. Simply turn XP back on again each time the character logs in. That way it's impossible to forget to turn it back on, and the modest numbers of players who really want it off will do so by typing "/xp off" each time they log in.
For the other portion of that concern (that players will strand themselves without content, then complain bitterly about it)... there isn't much that can be done about that. Will those players submit tickets on it? Hard to say, but I'm sure some will. With a session default of "/xp on", though, the number of players shooting themselves in the foot that way will be pretty small.
Like floon, I think a mentoring system would be vastly more useful. It would of course cost a good deal more too.
Khafar
I think that you should know to drop things when you've reached the stage of arguing with a developer who has taken the time to respond to your request. Mentoring would let you help others and do things with a partner who has gotten out of sync in levels. Go for that; it'd help with a lot of the concerns raised here.
And make a case if there is one that the natural leveling arc doesn't match the content - they are revamping the lower level areas and that would be very useful information for them.
i see what you did thereQuote:
Originally Posted by floon
Fixed that for you. He isn't just talking to you personally, he's talking to the people asking for this in this thread (for a wide variety of reasons). And yes, mentoring helps solve a lot of progression sequencing issues, so that even if they introduce some cool new content at level 30 (and you're currently level 45), you can enjoy it at a good challenge level without having to level up an alt first. Or you can go back and do a quest at level when you've bypassed it due to Virtue grinding. Etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiempko
Khafar
Yes, it's a shame that in a game targeted at supposedly a minimum of a teenage audience, the developer has to cater for some doing idiotic things (like deleting a character after at least two "do you REALLY mean it" prompts) that if done by a 10-year-old would make one think that child was in need of counseling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khafar
Come on Floon. How many of the posts in this and the various other threads on this topic have you actually read? I don't think you could have read them all, and STILL make such a statement. This *IS* a serious feature request, and a myriad of well thought out and articulated reasons that this would be a great feature to have, for a wide variety of players and play styles, have been put forth.Quote:
Originally Posted by floon
As a matter of fact there are many examples of those who were originally detractors of this idea, who once having read various reasons it would make sense to have, subsequently changed their view on its inclusion.
But isn't EVERYTHING added or changed in LoTRO a potential call driver for CS. Of the many changes that can, may, or will be included in LoTRO, this one seems pretty straight forward for not only mitigating CS calls before they happen, but also dealing with them should they come in.Quote:
Originally Posted by floon
A variety of means to do this have also been put forth, from warnings, visual indicators, requiring the feature to be turned on each time a player logs in, etc..., along with a policy of CS providing a reminder of how the toggle/throttle works and closing the ticket. Is it that much work to select a canned statement, send it off and close the ticket?
How do other games which include this feature deal with this potentiality? I imagine with a warning stating that turning off XP may result in not having any quests to gain XP with and a long grind, is adequate. Yeah some may still get stuck in that spot and not like it, but they really can't complain now can they?Quote:
Originally Posted by floon
But if you are REALLY that concerned about it, there are solutions. Allow one to turn off only mob kill XP, or provide a 'slider' as Tiempko suggests that can't even get to 0% XP gain, save XP in a wallet or provide something akin to Destiny Points that allows you to spend to get ultra accelerated XP gain when you kill mobs, institute an option to click a 'Level Up' button when ready to level up, but turn XP gain back on when they only have Orange or Above quests available, and only allow it to be turned back off when Yellow or Below quests become available. Etc... These are only a few of the many good ideas to address such concerns.
Are they designed around the idea that they should be completed at Green or Cyan or Blue? I'm not a big fan of the hot knife through warm butter degree of challenge that most quests become in LoTRO. Are you telling us that Turbine has an expectation of rapid and easy advancement through content in the game?Quote:
Originally Posted by floon
So what if there aren't systems that require such a feature. As stated players have given numerous reasons why it makes perfectly good sense in LoTRO in a way that makes LoTRO a better game. In ways that give LoTRO a degree of flexibility for varying play styles that can only make the game even more attractive for existing and prospective players.Quote:
Originally Posted by floon
Actually no, personally I don't care a whole lot if it goes backwards. I think you misunderstand many of the different reasons people want this. I WANT to make forward progress (albeit at my own pace - sometimes slow, sometimes fast) while continually being challenged, and I WANT to help people along the way without accelerating my progress by doing content over and over, but once I've decided to move on, I'm not all that interested in going back to lower level content with the same toon.Quote:
Originally Posted by floon
A little more effort? It seems to me that a mentoring system would require significantly more effort, and would therefore being even LESS likely to happen. Besides that doesn't really address the various issues people have discussed in these threads.Quote:
Originally Posted by floon
Again, come on Floon. This is not a reasonable solution for most players. Clearly you are a fan of the Mentoring System. I have no objections to it, however it simply does not address all the issues that an XP toggle/throttle would. I get the feeling you are concerned that if an XP reducer is implemented, that will reduce the impetus to include your preferred Mentoring System. But since they both address different needs, I think there are separate strong arguments to be made in favor of both.Quote:
Originally Posted by floon
I think the point is that the more people you have to give the stock answer to, the more time you're taking away from actual issues, and the more manpower you need to cover support overall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beldacar
I work at help desk, and if I had a deluge of non-issues I'd have to respond to, I wouldn't have time to get to the real ones. My company would have to hire more support people, which means spending more money, which they sure don't want to do right now.
There would have to be QUITE a few morons playing LoTRO for there to be a "deluge of non-issues" sent to CS related to misuse of an XP toggle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrindal
What exactly is Turbine saying about its player base?
Okay floon, so is there a mentoring system currently being designed? If so, will it be out before Q1 2011?
That's a major undertaking with major implications. Modifying a game to include something of that magnitude, especially this late in the game's life sounds like a logistical nightmare that will affect every single area and every single quest. Somehow I don't think that's being planned and is just a red herring on your part.
EQIIs mentoring was included in the original design layout. Their entire skill system is set up to allow for different effects based on different situations. Each skill can have different effect based on mentoring, regular play, pvp. This is why they can adjust each skill and not nerf PvE because of PvP. It also makes the mentoring system smooth. As much as I dislike SoE, they do get some things really right.
Can each skill in Lotro have a different result based on where/what it is being used for? Considering that there have been PvE nerfs because of PvP, I don't think so. Without that functionality, mentoring will be a nightmare, both in production and CS issues.
Don't get me wrong, I would love a mentoring system, but as much as I love you guys, I don't think this is something we will ever see. There's too much pre-existing coding getting in the way. I mean, the revamp of the coin system is a much smaller task (but still HUGE),and there's no eta on that or if it will ever get done afaik, so how can something like this mentoring system even be possible?
Like I said before, even I don't think anyone is that stupid to file a complaint because they turned off their exp. In the worst case, you could add a popup when they turn off the exp that warns them of the consequences and that they have to hit okay to close, in addition to the other things I mentioned in my last post.
Really, I am just so shocked at how resistive you are to this, and the examples you are throwing out are pretty lame.
At the very least, you could drop the bonus exp weekends, weeks, months that seem to be running all the time. If you aren't going to fix the problem, then stop throwing those bonus events out so often, or at all.
Well, given cases of people coming on here asking for a character they've accidentally deleted (to mention one example), I think Turbine are saying that there are probably a large enough number of idiots who don't read or think before clicking something that no matter how many warnings they're given they'll still do stupid things then whine to CS to fix the problem they created for themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxFire
You're obviously still capable of being surprised then at the stupidity some people can exhibit. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by DunasConnor
That morons are ubiquitous. Anyone who's ever worked a help desk knows this in their bones ;).Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxFire
Khafar
Forgive me if you mentioned it already, but in your proposed "mentoring" system does the lower level always come up to the higher level of can it go both ways?Quote:
Originally Posted by floon
If I'm a level 60 who wants to live in the shire, can I "level down" to my companion to help him? Or am I just going to make him level 60 and have him blast through the shire content.
While I agree a mentoring system would solve SOME of the social reasons, I really don't think you can say it would solve ALL of the social reasons. An "XP off" feature would open up way more possibilities for roleplaying. You can make a character permanently tied to a certain zone, without becoming far more powerful than anything in the zone. I could make a Hobbit that is permanently at level 10, who lives in the shire and who still risks his life when he travels to Bree. I couldn't do that in the mentoring system.
All that said, I do admit your customer service issues are valid. I would tend to just say "Well let people get pissy it's their own damn fault", but then again that is why I don't work in a customer service oriented business ;).
My only other idea would be to just make it such an obscure key command with a warning that pops up that says "Turbine is not responsible for any experience lost while this feature is running". So like make people type in /experience off and then when they do a pop up appears that says something about how it is entirely the player's responsibility to use this system and that turbine will take NO complaints about lost experience...then require a "yes/no" before they turn it on. I feel like that would not only make it idiot proof, it would also make it easy for your customer service to just say "We don't address these issues, we provided a warning".
EDIT:
The key command could be way more obscure than "/experience off"...and the customer service side could be way more strict. Provide the warning, put some stuff in bold, and then have customer service delete every ticket people make complaining about lack of experience, or just send back an automatic email saying something along the lines of "We aren't responsible. You were warned etc..."
This is all I'd like to see -Quote:
Originally Posted by floon
That's it. Nothing fancy.Quote:
Skill: Decelerated Experience
When this skill is active you gain NO experience from killing enemies.
Duration: 1 hour
Cooldown: 1 hour
But it would have a huge impact on my game play. It would allow me to complete kill deeds on level instead of waiting until they're grey like I do now. It would allow me to run instances on level as many times as I'd like without going up in level. I would allow me to gather crafting resources (such as hides) on level without going up in level. Quests would still give XP and so players would still level, just slower. Quests alone are enough to level in this game. You don't even need the XP from the monster kills.
I can definitely see a use for this skill at around level 50 when doing Carn Dum, Urugarth, etc. Same could be said about the level 60 instances when the cap is raised (although I personally like the older designs much more than most of the the Moria ones).
In the grand scheme of things, I simply don't see how having this "skill" as being anywhere near as difficult to implement as a mentoring system. Also, since it's a skill that a player would have to keep activating every hour, I don't see it being a CS issue. There is already a DP "perk" for adding accerlated experience for monster kills. This is just shutting it off completely for a set length of time.
Wow...I can't believe this thread is still going.
It's like two guys who won't let it drop and a million others saying stop it already.
Anyhow, I feel pretty confident more players spend time in the Ettenmoors than would want a XP off switch.
Get in line; you're behind PvMP.
I count 5 people alone on this page who in support of it...Thoraval, Me, DunasConnor, Foxfire, Kraggy (If you guys aren't you can say that, just judging by your posts)Quote:
Originally Posted by Thane9
While I agree it probably won't happen, you shouldn't exaggerate just to try and prove your point.
Fair enough. Lets say there's 50 in the thread who support it.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrWookie
Ok...how about 250.
That's still INSANELY less than those who post, and play, in the moors every day. Not just in one thread spanning several days/weeks?...EACH AND EVERY DAY.
Seems like someone else is familiar with the wild world of support! FoxFire, however, is apparently not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khafar
And yet there are Achievers and Killers out there who'd love to have that armor set, but miss it because they're not Explorers. And, no, I didn't explore that area in the late 30s, I was still stuck over in Evendim clearing green quests out of my journal. I'm lucky I found it before 41 (which is when I could have made a set of Solid Westernesse Armour that is almost comparable). If I had access to an XP slider (or some way to opt out of all the bonus XP), I could have indeed explored that area at the "target" level ;^)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraggy
I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways: either "no one will use it" or "so many people will use it that it will measurably increase our CS call level." Either so few people will use the feature that it's not worth implementing, in which case the CS issue is moot, or so many people will use it that it becomes a CS issue, demonstrating just how popular the feature is....Quote:
Originally Posted by APErebusAU
Actually, losing items is far worse to me, as they represent sometimes hours of effort lost. It's made even worse when the cause of the loss is the instability of Turbine's servers, rather than any fault of the player. (FWIW, =I= didn't lose Ruby Shards, I lost a stack of Red Dye. But that's just due to luck, since I was just about to put a stack of Ruby Shards into my housing storage just before the crash occurred. And yes, Customer Service very rapidly responded to my ticket saying they couldn't help me, even though the loss was entirely due to the company's failure. Only reason I filed a ticket was to let Turbine know that crash + rollback =deserves= a mountain of CS tickets; it's the only way to convince them to take measures to reduce the number of such occurrences.)Quote:
B. But losing a stack of ruby shards doesn't stop you from advancing the content, which leads to...
This really isn't the sort of feature anyone is likely to turn on at level 57. It's rather clearly, by design, intended to allow players to progress more slowly through the low- and mid-level content. At those levels, we're talking a couple of hundred white or yellow opponents. In a game that requires killing 240+ Worms in Angmar to get a single point of Valour, you simply can't convince me that having to kill 200 opponents in order to gain a level is going to be a real concern....Quote:
C. You are kidding me? If I, as a stupid user, accidently turned off all of my XP in moria, and did all of the content from 57-60 without any XP, you want me to grind the 300k+ XP required? at 300xp per kill (roughly) I'm looking foward to the 100,000 enemies I must kill. Fantastic!
Trust is earned. I've been doing business with Turbine for almost a decade. I still remember when Azeraphel's answer to everything was "We don't have the tech! We don't have the manpower! It's too much work!" Strangely enough, within months of his departure, things started getting done.Quote:
From my point of view, this is such a non-issue. I see people looking for reasons why Turbine MUST do it, without access to any of the data that Turbine has to make these decisions.
The lack of trust is almost kind of painful.
And from my point of view, this is indeed a non-issue. It's such an obvious feature to add, the benefit of allowing Explorer and Social players to progress at their own chosen pace far outweighs any imaginary (or real) CS issues.
As I said, either "no one will use the feature" or "so many people will use the feature that it will generate a flood of CS tickets." It can't be both....Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrindal
Many suggestions have been made to avoid CS calls. A simple "/xp off" that reset every time you logged woud do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by floon
It's not a game system that requries it; it's the game itself. There are far too many quests to do on-level (which is how many of us like to do them).Quote:
Originally Posted by floon
A valid point, but I could live with that limitation. Nothing in the game works exactly like I might wish it would.Quote:
Originally Posted by floon
My guess is a real mentoring system would not be "a little more effort"... not even close. (I've been a professional software developer for 20+ years; so my guess is based on some experience.)Quote:
Originally Posted by floon
I do that now, in a sense. I'm part of a "iron-man" group which restricts its members from getting help from alts or using crafted items, etc, in order to make the content less trivial. It's really fun when a mob drops some yellow items, and everyone in the group says "ooh, I could use that!". In normal play, those same yellow items are sold to the vendor without a second glance.Quote:
Originally Posted by floon
Yes, I could use level 1 armor or weapons to make it more challenging in some ways. But grey mobs still won't aggro. And I don't want to be a self-gimped level 30 doing level 20 quests. I want to be a skilled level 20 (equipped with the best gear and traits I can earn) doing level 20+ quests.
If Turbine were actually considering a Mentor feature, that would be nice to know. But my guess is it's not even on the list.
Are there more important things? Of course! Sure, there are lots of PvP players who would like some love - and although I don't PvP much personally, I think they deserve some new content (even though that's a huge development effort). However, it seems to us (XP-reduction supporters) that this feature is a piece of low-hanging fruit.
Let's say (for example) the effort to implement this is about the same as the effort to improve the in-game Mail interface (which is being done for SoM). Turbine could then make a valid argument that more people want an improved mail interface, and therefore they did that. Ok, fine - improvements like that are nice (and every player benefits), even though they aren't necessary (as they don't add any functionality to the game).
The problem with this comparison is that (unlike the mail system) there is currently no way in the game to do what we (those who support this feature) want. We simply can't do it. None of the suggestions (roll an alt, use a butterknife, etc) works.
I certainly appreciate Floon taking the time to read and respond to us. I guess I just don't buy his arguments.
- What we're asking for should be easy to implement (we've suggested many ways to do so).
- It can be done in such a way as to prevent the CS issue.
- There is a reasonable number of players who would use this feature.
- There is no other way for us to achieve this effect.
- It should be considered.
Incorrect. There are at least half a dozen players consistently posting in favor of it, a few more who've said they might use it if it were added, two players who keep posting "shut up, shut up, shut up," and a few more who say that they're not opposed to the feature but don't think it's worth any significant investment on Turbine's part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thane9
It's hardly the one-sided picture you paint.
And seriously, I doubt the same developer is responsible both for PvMP issues -and- coding UI features. Totally different skillsets, most likely....
Take what Floon says with a grain of salt.
Is his opinion valuable and informed? Of course. But just in case you're blind to it, he's human and in addition to his general work duties, he enjoys stirring the pot.
I can can think of four or five Fark.com handles he may be using at any given time. :)
/supports xpoff or throttle
//doesn't care if it doesn't go backwards, has low level alt group
I'd just like to point out that I am one of those "detractors of the idea" who has changed my view on the subject. However, like Floon, I still don't think there is a serious need for it. I just understand why some folks want it. I can even think of a couple reasons within the last month I may have used this very feature myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxFire