Player Guide: Class Changes Summary: Captain

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Touching on the doubt side of things, after seeing how you have been basically railing on the class and fighting any and all changes to it since HD B2, even after it took several turns for the better with each additional update, it quickly gave the feeling that your mindset was basically "it changed now it sucks", rather than "how can we make this better?". That my desktop fried itself in late November, and my laptop can't effectively do LotRO, isn't helping with the **ARG** factor here.

---

To be honest, in B2 "now it sucks" was a fair description. And it wasnt much better in B3 and 4 from what I recall.

However I have tried to include suggestions at each point, the fact that my phrasing wasn't gushing with positivity is irrelevant. A number of my suggestions were taken up (whether they were already planned or a direct result of my suggestions I cannot be sure). The captain is in a better place because of those suggestions, and I intend to keep working on improving the captain through suggestions.

I am sorry to hear about your computer issues, I would probably have a nervous breakdown if I didn't have regular access to a decent gaming PC.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aardnebby

Classes split into 3 traitlines, only 2 specs unlocked for VIPs, blatant money grab here.

---

Two comments on that one:
a) they need to make money, this is a "convenience" thing and is part of their current business model. Call it a money grab if you like, it is the F2P model. This aspect doesn't outrage me personally, though the price point was set oddly high (IMHO) for a per-character enhancement.
b) I bet VERY few people bother with the 3rd spec. Hard core folks, sure. I got one using my monthly TPs. But even before HD, most more casual folks picked some traits and stuck with them, rarely changing. You could see people who didn't even have all their virtues slotted. Bards weren't frequented. I bet 2 specs is more than enough for most... I'm not bothering with the 3rd HD spec, as I don't find vanguard that useful...

As I get used to the new Capt, don't mind it much. I dislike some of their choices, but some are interesting and I don't mind an occasional shake up. But I do think the Epic Battles are getting old, bugs in game are frustrating, and the game balance is way crocked (6 man thorog without heals? Solo SH or turtle?? MOORS????). Worst for me, the lack of end game instances removes a good part of my motivation to "gear up". Hopefully they will get things together soon. I'm a lifer, so won't leave but can easily see cutting way back on playing time if they don't improve matters.

Apparently playing guide has become "random discussion thread"...

A. Which is why I specifically said VIP. If a monthly sub AND a yearly expansion that cost as much as a full AAA game is not enough money there is a serious problem.

B. As a captain we have 3 very different specs. I dps by default as the buffs are better but if we lack either a healer or tank then the captain is expected to fill that role.

you don't need to be "hardcore" to want to play your class without either a pay wall or deliberately added frustration just to justify the convenience sales...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aardnebby

A. Which is why I specifically said VIP. If a monthly sub AND a yearly expansion that cost as much as a full AAA game is not enough money there is a serious problem.

B. As a captain we have 3 very different specs. I dps by default as the buffs are better but if we lack either a healer or tank then the captain is expected to fill that role.

you don't need to be "hardcore" to want to play your class without either a pay wall or deliberately added frustration just to justify the convenience sales...

---

I use 3 specs also, yellow for moors and tanking, blue for main healing, red for normal. Fact is, you can heal pretty well with red with some blue added, and get by with 2 specs because of how soft the content is...

And the greed is not a "serious problem" to me, though I accept that others have a different perspective as apparently you do. I have a lifetime acct, and am OK spending my turbine points earned on stuff like this. To me, lack of an interesting end game and buggy content == serious problem. Lack of challenge == serous problem. Slightly greedy choice == minor irritation at best. Could they give VIPs more for their money? Sure. But is that my personal priority? No. Again though, I recognize that others have different issues than me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

I use 3 specs also, yellow for moors and tanking, blue for main healing, red for normal. Fact is, you can heal pretty well with red with some blue added, and get by with 2 specs because of how soft the content is...

And the greed is not a "serious problem" to me, though I accept that others have a different perspective as apparently you do. I have a lifetime acct, and am OK spending my turbine points earned on stuff like this. To me, lack of an interesting end game and buggy content == serious problem. Lack of challenge == serous problem. Slightly greedy choice == minor irritation at best. Could they give VIPs more for their money? Sure. But is that my personal priority? No. Again though, I recognize that others have different issues than me.

---

Indeed the lack of challenge is a serious problem, but I predict that if the game's content were to become more challenging, the problems with the trait system will become more obvious. Before the trait trees, it was relatively simple to swap a couple traits in a given build. With 65 points to spend each time a tree needs to be tweaked, however, this exercise is much more tedious. Having 2 free saved specs is small compensation for this, in my opinion. And if the developers introduce content challenging enough to require careful traiting, the price of the 3rd saved spec will provoke much wailing* in these forums.

One solution to this would be to allow players to subtract spent trait points without resetting the entire setup, but the developers seem to be opposed to this (at least that's the gist I gleaned from beta). I don't know whether the motivation is the difficulty of producing this feature, or whether it is to encourage players to spend more turbine points on saved specs.



*I also predict that making the content more challenging will cause other flaws in the trait trees to become more obvious, such as the crude over-specialization of certain classes' roles (e.g. champions' ST vs. AoE trees and inability of captains and champions to off-tank while not specced for tanking), and the extreme constraints in the trees' topology. I'm all for challenging gameplay, but if the challenge includes careful optimization of the trait budget, I might find something more fun to do with my spare time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lohi

But the herald is a big improvement. It's an improvement over the original herald, and it's an improvement over choosing between banner or herald, and it's an improvement over a banner alone. So ya, it is an improvement. The problem that you are having is not with the herald but with no longer having the old style banner, which is a reasonable gripe, but put the blame where it is due.

---

I disagree. The herald is improved over the old herald, but I liked playing with a banner.

For solo play, can't we just have the ability to shield-brother ourselves and not have to deal with a pesky NPC in order to have access to our skills? As an aside, this would also eliminate the need for the X-bro skills to apply to our target and ourselves. If this were coupled with the ability to choose which X-bro skill we wanted, we would be able to choose to buff ourselves for our role or buff someone else (eg. the healer when we are tanking).

For group play, I probably won't even summon the herald in challenging environments. The buff is ok, but not great enough to make me trust my herald's AI.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Touching on the doubt side of things, after seeing how you have been basically railing on the class and fighting any and all changes to it since HD B2, even after it took several turns for the better with each additional update, it quickly gave the feeling that your mindset was basically "it changed now it sucks", rather than "how can we make this better?". That my desktop fried itself in late November, and my laptop can't effectively do LotRO, isn't helping with the **ARG** factor here.

Going back to the armaments, I've wondered if the lack of herald armor on the banners aren't a pretty major factor with the perception that heralds are flimsy. IMO, we need to have a complete cycle of items (like the warden carvings) that allow us to give a specific herald bonus with a specific banner bonus.

As far as DPS goes, the herald should be on par with the skirmish soldiers IMO. That basically means that heralds do meh DPS, but the trait does +uber DPS for the archers and +almostAsUber DPS for the heralds.

---

The captain class was a complete disaster in the first few beta rounds. I think this* class has improved to be about 80% as fun as what it was before HD. I am pessimistic that it can be restored fully due to the developers' fervent opposition to restoring the classes' versatility.

But I am hopeful that the new armaments will help with some of the problems the heralds are having now. But this won't solve pathing**.



*The champion and minstrel are still unplayable, IMO. Devs, please get on this.

**You should have taken my advice, devs. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dietlbomb

**You should have taken my advice, devs. ;)

---

Yes cause clearly we need....

( DEFUN POINT ()
"A language that's basically a problem to deal with until it clicks in your head making the herald problem worse until that happens for the devs."
)
(POINT)


But more to the point..........

#include<iostream>

int main()
{
cout << "However, if you're referring to the algorithms there, I imagine the AI dude already knows them." << endl;
return 0;
}

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Yes cause clearly we need....

( DEFUN POINT ()
"A language that's basically a problem to deal with until it clicks in your head making the herald problem worse until that happens for the devs."
)
(POINT)


But more to the point..........

#include<iostream>

int main()
{
cout << "However, if you're referring to the algorithms there, I imagine the AI dude already knows them." << endl;
return 0;
}

---

Actually I was joking. Changing the programming language of game features would be stupider than changing the game's character development paradigm.












But, apart from the Real-time issues, Lisp might be a better choice for game development than freaking C++.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dietlbomb

But, apart from the Real-time issues, Lisp might be a better choice for game development than freaking C++.

---

Except that it's got a learning curve that makes EVE Online look like a cakewalk =P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aardnebby

Assuming you aren't the one pulling ofc, then the issue is when you pull a mob, the herald then runs to it, aggroing anything nearby.

---

I usually use the archer herald to eliminate this situation, and add to DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ssslippy

I have my banner in my ranged slot. From what I understand the armament needs to be equipped for the bonus and summoning with it only changes the look.

---

Yes, that's how it works now. I slot an armament, summon the desired Herald, then switch to a banner.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by auximenes

I usually use the archer herald to eliminate this situation, and add to DPS.


Yes, that's how it works now. I slot an armament, summon the desired Herald, then switch to a banner.

---

Heralds still have AI problems -- for example, if you get aggroed while on horseback, once you dismount the herald will occasionally attempt to run back to the mob that aggroed, and he can't be rallied in the process.

Perhaps setting the herald to passive, and toggling off assist mode is the solution? I can't seriously imagine anyone needing herald DPS.

Quote:

---

The champion and minstrel are still unplayable, IMO. Devs, please get on this.

---

The Guardian is considerably more unplayable than either of these two, since the block/parry responses blink like Christmas lights.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dietlbomb

But, apart from the Real-time issues, Lisp might be a better choice for game development than freaking C++.

---

Agreed, but too many under thirty programmers are scared of it, think it's hard, or are otherwise ignorant of it. However look at Lua, similar features to Lisp but is newer and thus not shunned, and some games have had major portion written in it (Baldur's Gate series), not just add-ons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Except that it's got a learning curve that makes EVE Online look like a cakewalk =P

---

Probably the simplest language to learn.

Outstanding issues:

Short buff range of auras, EG herald buff, IDOME, Motivation - Suggested solution would be to make this a skill like our tactics (massive 80m range, duration of say 10 seconds) but is re-triggered every 3 seconds without user input.

Poor herald performance (various) - At level cap DPS is still pathetic and the Heightened Allies trait is effectively worthless compared to almost any other trait even at double the cost - no idea what I can suggest here because something tells me even if the herald does 10 times the DPS it does now (400dps instead of 40!) the pathing is not going to improve and we are stuck with the herald whether we want it or not. There are several AoE skills that kill the herald despite us being told most would not affect it. It cannot be summoned on the move (you have to stand still for the induction). It still suffers various "eye" effects. The only contribution to the playability of the captain is when you want x-brother while soloing, wouldn't a stance do just as well (such as Warspeech used to work for minstrels).

X-brother skills - Lack of flexibility - should be made general skills - why are we buffing other peoples tanking ability when we are in tank stance? Likewise heals? I want to shield brother the tank when I am a healer! I want blade brother always available because more dps = faster runs. I want to song brother when I have a captain tanking and he needs more power, or because I have a full team of minstrels and RKs and LMs who want more tactical mastery.

Tactics buff over-rights tactics of other captains in the group (sometimes? For some reason with Focus/Relentless it didnt seem to over-right, but with On Guard/Relentless the most recent one took precedence). Tactics skills should be more controllable OR stack.

Tactics - on guard - still utterly awful. The only person in the group with power problems is the tank traited captain (so power cost is pointless for 5 out of 6), the parry rating and defence % are only useful if you are taking damage. Of no interest to anyone.

Tactics - focus - 2% tactical mitigation? huh? Incoming healing % isn't really a buff, it's the same as increasing all your heals by a few % (less than 5%, because most people who need healing a lot already have incoming heal %, and going from say 130% to 135% is actually an improvement of approx 3.8%). Yes yes it increases self heals, but seriously?

IMHO reduced length of duration on last stand still makes it pointless, putting it into the tank line is counterproductive and the heal is pathetic. Can we do something with this skill to make it something I will use at some point? A bubble for example?



Not captain specific:

Classes split into 3 traitlines, only 2 specs unlocked for VIPs, blatant money grab here. VIPs should get a free 3rd spec for every character. Then make 4th/5th specs available for sale.

Destiny points removed and never replaced despite sapience saying a new system was in the works.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aardnebby

Short buff range of auras, EG herald buff, IDOME, Motivation - Suggested solution would be to make this a skill like our tactics (massive 80m range, duration of say 10 seconds) but is re-triggered every 3 seconds without user input.

---

I feel obliged to argue with passion against the re-triggering buff. I find it one of the most annoying mechanics ever.

Quote:

---

Poor herald performance (various) - At level cap DPS is still pathetic and the Heightened Allies trait is effectively worthless compared to almost any other trait even at double the cost - no idea what I can suggest here because something tells me even if the herald does 10 times the DPS it does now (400dps instead of 40!) the pathing is not going to improve and we are stuck with the herald whether we want it or not. There are several AoE skills that kill the herald despite us being told most would not affect it. It cannot be summoned on the move (you have to stand still for the induction). It still suffers various "eye" effects. The only contribution to the playability of the captain is when you want x-brother while soloing, wouldn't a stance do just as well (such as Warspeech used to work for minstrels).

---

I agree that heralds have performance issues.

My suggestion here would be to conceptually do away with the herald as a combat unit, and turn him strictly into a pet that carries a specific type of standard (and provides a corresponding aura), and can cast a limited array of heals and active buffs on the captain. Archer herald will, obviously, be dealt away with. This also means that all modes will be removed, and heralds will be (and remain permanently) in passive/follow mode. Heralds can also get a Withdrawal type of skill for better survivability.

Still not sure what type of buffs would be good to go on a herald -- perhaps add back the old banner bonuses in some form as active buffs? (+ICMR for hope, +ICPR for victory, strength/agility or perhaps physical mastery for war). Those could be perhaps 10s buffs on a 20s cooldown. Perhaps, for an extra twist, Improved Sure Strike could be changed to reduce the cooldown of these buffs, rather than the cooldown of Battle Shout. I'm out of ideas here, but you get where this is going.

This will potentially minimize the awful impacts of the herald in combat, and can add an interesting twist to the way the Captain uses pets.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bezmer

I feel obliged to argue with passion against the re-triggering buff. I find it one of the most annoying mechanics ever.

---

It's not ideal, but we have been told the technology used to make auras is limited to 20m range, which is basically useless for big battles, I was trying to come up with a way to give the buff to people who are further away, since I have been told we will not go back to "apply once, lasts 30 minutes" system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bezmer

I agree that heralds have performance issues.

My suggestion here would be to conceptually do away with the herald as a combat unit, and turn him strictly into a pet that carries a specific type of standard (and provides a corresponding aura), and can cast a limited array of heals and active buffs on the captain. Archer herald will, obviously, be dealt away with. This also means that all modes will be removed, and heralds will be (and remain permanently) in passive/follow mode. Heralds can also get a Withdrawal type of skill for better survivability.

---

I suggested something similar in beta (an oathbreaker herald that did no damage and could not be damaged, he just provided the buffs).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aardnebby

It's not ideal, but we have been told the technology used to make auras is limited to 20m range, which is basically useless for big battles, I was trying to come up with a way to give the buff to people who are further away, since I have been told we will not go back to "apply once, lasts 30 minutes" system.

---

This makes sense. They have a similar mechanic for some guardian skills, and they annoyed me mightily. Must have been for the same reason.

We used to have auras before (herald, banner), too. I've never noticed them being limited to 20m. Was I just not paying attention, or did they use a different technology?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aardnebby

I suggested something similar in beta (an oathbreaker herald that did no damage and could not be damaged, he just provided the buffs).

---

Was there any comment?

I don't necessarily like the idea of them taking no damage, since keeping your herald alive adds an interesting twist to captain gameplay. Otherwise the situation is pretty much the same as having an extra self-buff.

As I'm writing this, I get an interesting idea about buffs that interplay with the x-brother skills: herald can "lend" physical or tactical mastery to the captain based on the herald's level own level of said characteristics. Therefore, even though he doesn't have direct offensive contribution to combat, there is still full use of tactics/x-bro skills proc-ing on him.

edit: Perhaps this Herald suggestion merits its own thread, too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bezmer

This makes sense. They have a similar mechanic for some guardian skills, and they annoyed me mightily. Must have been for the same reason.

We used to have auras before (herald, banner), too. I've never noticed them being limited to 20m. Was I just not paying attention, or did they use a different technology?

---

It was less of an issue when the group was not required to split so far appart, however with big battles you regularly have the fellowship, raid, or small fellowship 40+ m away from each other as an intended mechanic. So making MORE of our buffs SHORTER range seemed completely counterproductive to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bezmer

Was there any comment?

I don't necessarily like the idea of them taking no damage, since keeping your herald alive adds an interesting twist to captain gameplay. Otherwise the situation is pretty much the same as having an extra self-buff.

As I'm writing this, I get an interesting idea about buffs that interplay with the x-brother skills: herald can "lend" physical or tactical mastery to the captain based on the herald's level own level of said characteristics. Therefore, even though he doesn't have direct offensive contribution to combat, there is still full use of tactics/x-bro skills proc-ing on him.

---

No direct response other than the fact that those making the decisions seem to be in favour of the return of the heralds whether we like it or not.

I am against having to keep a pet with about as much survival instinct as Sara Oakheart alive as part of our "class mechanics". As a quest maybe, but not as part of playing the class. We are supposed to be jack of all trades/all rounders with great buffing, but that was removed and replaced with tank/healers with buffs dependent on what we are doing. The pet thing has always been a side show and frankly detracts from the play of the class.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aardnebby

I am against having to keep a pet with about as much survival instinct as Sara Oakheart alive as part of our "class mechanics". As a quest maybe, but not as part of playing the class.

---

If the herald cannot assist/fight this is not an issue -- it's pretty much protecting a (walking) flagpole.

I don't like the idea of modifying the Herald to not be able to be hurt. Unless it's an Oathbreaker or something similar, the Herald standing there not being attackable just doesn't work for me.

As for removing the Herald entirely, I'm completely against that. It's totally relevant to what the Captain stands for, a leader of Men. What could show that leadership more than a Captain directing a Herald?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aardnebby

It's not ideal, but we have been told the technology used to make auras is limited to 20m range, which is basically useless for big battles,

---

Depends on which part of the big battles. For control points in helm's dike for instance the soldiers are always fighting about in the same area. But I don't think buffs apply to soldiers so that doesn't matter anyway. For group play everyone is so spread out that buffs won't work anyway; even in the old system you can't put a banner everywhere, but you could keep the crit buff up. I don't think buffs in big battles are that important overall and big battles themselves are just a side game being run less often that instances. The buffs in instances seem to be working better, as players do stick relatively close to each other for the most part.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by auximenes

I don't like the idea of modifying the Herald to not be able to be hurt. Unless it's an Oathbreaker or something similar, the Herald standing there not being attackable just doesn't work for me.

As for removing the Herald entirely, I'm completely against that. It's totally relevant to what the Captain stands for, a leader of Men. What could show that leadership more than a Captain directing a Herald?

---

My biggest concern with the suggestion of making the Herald not able to be hurt in certain circumstances is how easily it just screams 'exploitable' to me and what sort of questions is raises. For example, when would the herald be damage immune? When could you switch it? Would this break group content? Would the buffs retain the same degree of potency?

Also, don't forget. The Captain can be a leader of dwarves and Oathbreakers as well. :)

Edit: dwarves? dwarfs? I can never remember which is the correct Tolkien pluralization.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RockX

Also, don't forget. The Captain can be a leader of dwarves and Oathbreakers as well. :)

---

I didn't realise that this had been fixed yet - I thought that if equipped a banner (which naturally anyone of high rank would), then we couldn't customise the way the herald looked? Or did I miss out on a change?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RockX

Edit: dwarves? dwarfs? I can never remember which is the correct Tolkien pluralization.

---

According to my copy of the hobbit, "dwarfs" is the correct pluralization :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lohi

Depends on which part of the big battles. For control points in helm's dike for instance the soldiers are always fighting about in the same area. But I don't think buffs apply to soldiers so that doesn't matter anyway. For group play everyone is so spread out that buffs won't work anyway; even in the old system you can't put a banner everywhere, but you could keep the crit buff up. I don't think buffs in big battles are that important overall and big battles themselves are just a side game being run less often that instances. The buffs in instances seem to be working better, as players do stick relatively close to each other for the most part.

---

It's nothing to do with soldiers.

Previously:

Tactics and Motivation buffs were long duration (30 mins). IDOME was medium duration (5 mins). The group did not need to be near you after you had applied them, so if the group needed to split up to achieve objectives they got to keep the captain buffs (for a while at least).

Now:

Motivation and IDOME are a 20m aura, Tactics is an 80m burst effect with a short duration (30 seconds, -45 seconds with a fully upgraded LI legacy).

BUT ALL THE NEW GROUP CONTENT REQUIRES THE GROUP TO SPLIT UP TO BE SUCCESSFUL!

So basically our skills have been developed in the opposite direction that the content is going.

Why?

No one has actually answered that as yet.

EDIT:

The new "Standard of..." buffs are actually an even smaller area. And because they hit a mob, basically the hunter/RK/DPS Minstrel must now be practically within melee range to receive the buffs.
The same applies to heralds vs Banners, since the herald almost always ends up in melee, the aura extending from them is centered closer to the mobs. Previously a captain would plant banners in the middle of the room or similar, rather than in melee.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RockX

My biggest concern with the suggestion of making the Herald not able to be hurt in certain circumstances is how easily it just screams 'exploitable' to me and what sort of questions is raises. For example, when would the herald be damage immune? When could you switch it? Would this break group content? Would the buffs retain the same degree of potency?

---

Make the "walking banner" herald an alternate summon. It provides a greater buff (to compensate for the lost DPS provided by the fighting herald), but basically has all the combat ability of a banner, IE it does not have a morale bar, does not deal or take damage. You can only have one pet summoned at a time, so basically you choose when you summon it, and will need to dismiss previous pet to change. Or if the tech is up to it, make it a specific armament / banner / captain class item that modifies your summons as described above.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bezmer

If the herald cannot assist/fight this is not an issue -- it's pretty much protecting a (walking) flagpole.

---

I don't understand what you are saying here. EG you would be ok with an invulnerable herald as long as it cannot deal damage? I thought thats what I was asking for.