Player Guide: Class Changes Summary: Captain

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Originally Posted by auximenes

I don't like the idea of modifying the Herald to not be able to be hurt. Unless it's an Oathbreaker or something similar, the Herald standing there not being attackable just doesn't work for me.

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The original suggestion was the Oathbreaker variant.

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Originally Posted by auximenes

As for removing the Herald entirely, I'm completely against that. It's totally relevant to what the Captain stands for, a leader of Men. What could show that leadership more than a Captain directing a Herald?

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I don't think anyone is asking for the complete removal of the herald. I am asking for an ALTERNATIVE for those of us that hate the things.

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Originally Posted by RockX

My biggest concern with the suggestion of making the Herald not able to be hurt in certain circumstances is how easily it just screams 'exploitable' to me and what sort of questions is raises. For example, when would the herald be damage immune? When could you switch it? Would this break group content? Would the buffs retain the same degree of potency?

Also, don't forget. The Captain can be a leader of dwarves and Oathbreakers as well. :)

Edit: dwarves? dwarfs? I can never remember which is the correct Tolkien pluralization.

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D0rfs.

(Actually, dwarves).

Please bring back cosmetics for heralds but not at the expense of banner slots :)

I just want the old plantable banner that was dependable and imo way more effective than using a derpy pet which I refuse to use even when soloing the moors.

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

I don't understand what you are saying here. EG you would be ok with an invulnerable herald as long as it cannot deal damage? I thought thats what I was asking for.

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In my mind, a lot of the fragility of the current version of the herald is due of how he attacks/assists. If you turn him into a wallflower, and give the captain a threat transfer skill, he could be defensible.

My suggestion was to strip the herald of his mellee attacks (so he doesn't deal damage, but has buffs to provide instead), but still leave it so that he can take damage, so that you have to actually work on protection in order to have buffs available for you. An invulnerable herald is just easymode and pretty much the same as giving said buff buttons to the Captain.

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Originally Posted by IzzyJ83

I just want the old plantable banner that was dependable and imo way more effective than using a derpy pet which I refuse to use even when soloing the moors.

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I would prefer the banner myself, but I was given the distinct impression that it is not an option :(

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Originally Posted by Bezmer

In my mind, a lot of the fragility of the current version of the herald is due of how he attacks/assists. If you turn him into a wallflower, and give the captain a threat transfer skill, he could be defensible.

My suggestion was to strip the herald of his mellee attacks (so he doesn't deal damage, but has buffs to provide instead), but still leave it so that he can take damage, so that you have to actually work on protection in order to have buffs available for you. An invulnerable herald is just easymode and pretty much the same as giving said buff buttons to the Captain.

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I would contest that an invulnerable herald is just a way of having a herald without actually having to be a pet class, because banners are not an option. Giving back the banners, or buff buttons to the captain would also be better.

I dislike pets, and I am not alone. I think the herald is not, and has never been an integral part of the class. Instead it is some half-worked cludge to let captains use group skills (EG words of courage is useless to the solo player without a herald even before the x-brother skills) that never really worked and has been unpopular since... well always? The first lotro raid had Zaudrus green and Thorogs purple eyes, and guess what, the pets were banned from it because they killed the group!

I don't know why you consider non-pet classes "easymode", and frankly I don't care. Captains have three distinct roles that work now (DPS, Healing, Tanking) along with buffing which works sometimes depending on the trait spec and group makeup. We don't need pets as well.

Take the herald out back, shoot him and bury him IMHO.

BUT since that isnt going to happen, I will keep making suggestions that minimise its (negative) impact on my gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Tirian-Hammerfist

I didn't realise that this had been fixed yet - I thought that if equipped a banner (which naturally anyone of high rank would), then we couldn't customise the way the herald looked? Or did I miss out on a change?

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Equip the armaments, summon the herald, then equip the banner and you get to keep the herald cosmetics.

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Originally Posted by Cazthelm

According to my copy of the hobbit, "dwarfs" is the correct pluralization :)

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According to my copy of the Hobbit, "dwarfs" is the correct pluralization but Tolkien decided that in Middle Earth, he was going to use "dwarves", darn it. He had some sort of justification that slips my mind.

Yes, Dwarves is indeed the correct spelling in the Tolkien world.

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

I don't know why you consider non-pet classes "easymode", and frankly I don't care.

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I don't consider non-pet classes easymode. I consider giving the captain a bunch of new buffs without the player having to put any effort in making them available is easymode. This has nothing to do with pets.

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Originally Posted by Bezmer

I don't consider non-pet classes easymode. I consider giving the captain a bunch of new buffs without the player having to put any effort in making them available is easymode. This has nothing to do with pets.

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I am not asking for "a bunch of new buffs", I am asking for the return of something like the banner style approach. The reason my suggestions are not "bring back banners" is because we have been told that isnt going to happen. So I am trying to come up with alternative solutions and compromises that won't annoy me as much to use.

Using heralds right now does not require skill, it requires luck and/or patience. You can use a herald on Thorog, or the Lieutenant or any other instance with an Eye style mechanic if you get lucky enough, or do enough runs that you get through it. Or you can EDIT *removed to avoid mentioning potential exploit involving pets*

Likewise in situations where the aoe kills the herald (Iorbars peak for example) you can spend ages positioning the herald just right (so you get the buff) but making sure that it never gets into combat, or you can use it as a combat pet and be resigned to summoning it again 3-4 times. Or you can do it without the buff at all with far less hassle.

There is no skill to using a herald. So an alternative to the herald cannot be considered "easymode".

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

I am not asking for "a bunch of new buffs", I am asking for the return of something like the banner style approach. The reason my suggestions are not "bring back banners" is because we have been told that isnt going to happen. So I am trying to come up with alternative solutions and compromises that won't annoy me as much to use.

Using heralds right now does not require skill, it requires luck and/or patience. You can use a herald on Thorog, or the Lieutenant or any other instance with an Eye style mechanic if you get lucky enough, or do enough runs that you get through it. Or you can EDIT *removed to avoid mentioning potential exploit involving pets*

Likewise in situations where the aoe kills the herald (Iorbars peak for example) you can spend ages positioning the herald just right (so you get the buff) but making sure that it never gets into combat, or you can use it as a combat pet and be resigned to summoning it again 3-4 times. Or you can do it without the buff at all with far less hassle.

There is no skill to using a herald. So an alternative to the herald cannot be considered "easymode".

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There is enough skill in using a herald when he's active-buffing and when you have to keep him alive.

I'm not concerned about banners (or the herald's resemblance thereof), I'm concerned about the herald having useful functionality while not being an annoying drag. My full suggestion is further down in the forums.

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Originally Posted by Bezmer

There is enough skill in using a herald when he's active-buffing and when you have to keep him alive.

I'm not concerned about banners (or the herald's resemblance thereof), I'm concerned about the herald having useful functionality while not being an annoying drag. My full suggestion is further down in the forums.

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I disagree. Heralds do not "active buff" at the moment, nor do they need to, that is our job as the captain, not the job of the unpaid peasant with a flagpole. There is no skill in their handling as I have shown, keeping him a life is a matter of position and forget or resummon every time he dies. I read your suggestions, and it seems you are the one asking for new buffs, not me! You are attempting to increase the role of the herald while keeping its worst issues, and basically asking for the complete opposite of what I suggested. If the herald is to be tied to a (single) buff and a fairly pathetic self heal, there should be an alternative method that does not involve dealing with the NOT FUN but instead ANNOYING aspects of that pet. You wish to keep a buffstick that dies. Let me explain again:

Any defensive buff on a herald is like a chocolate fireguard. If the whole group needs a (damage reduction/extra morale/extra mitigations) buff instead of extra damage/power cost reduction the reason is because the whole group is taking damage. Including the herald. At the moment, the herald drops in seconds, and the buff goes with it. Just like a fireguard made out of a substance with a low melting point, it is not helpful, instead it is just annoying because you need to clean up after it melts (by resummoning the herald) when you should be putting out the fire (healing/tanking/dpsing depending on your role).

We do not need more buffs, we just need better access to the ones we already have! EG x-brother not limited by trait line! ditto with Tactics! Or ofc you could make it so the Tactics buffs are context sensitive instead of being a one size sucks for 2/3rds of your fellowship.

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Originally Posted by Lohi

Equip the armaments, summon the herald, then equip the banner and you get to keep the herald cosmetics.

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Aye. Which, for the record, is a workaround that's been possible since HD launch, not the permanent fix that RockX promised us will be coming. :)

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

I disagree.

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I have no idea how you manage, since so far you've appeared genuinely disinterested in even trying to figure out what exactly I'm suggesting.

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Originally Posted by Bezmer

I have no idea how you manage, since so far you've appeared genuinely disinterested in even trying to figure out what exactly I'm suggesting.

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Let me deconstruct.
1. Making the herald do no damage, but still being vulnerable to attacks (OK, so far this means there is even less reason to keep this thing around, all the bad stuff of a melee pet with no melee bonus!)

2. New fellowship buff - Raise banner (ok, why are we doing new buffs again?)

3. New personal buff - Lend x (So basically replacing herald DPS with a buff to captain DPS, and replacing the current heals with a more flexible power OR morale heal)

Blahblah traits relating to the above.

4. ANOTHER new herald skill giving it a defensive buff (uh... to give you more buttons to press when dealing with the stupid thing that isnt even melee hopefully?)

5. A threat copy for something that does 0 DPS and has 1-2 heal skills that are probably going to be for small amounts or on long cooldowns (this will effectively do nothing)


Lets look at my herald issues shall we:

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

Poor herald performance (various) - At level cap DPS is still pathetic and the Heightened Allies trait is effectively worthless compared to almost any other trait even at double the cost - no idea what I can suggest here because something tells me even if the herald does 10 times the DPS it does now (400dps instead of 40!) the pathing is not going to improve and we are stuck with the herald whether we want it or not. There are several AoE skills that kill the herald despite us being told most would not affect it. It cannot be summoned on the move (you have to stand still for the induction). It still suffers various "eye" effects. The only contribution to the playability of the captain is when you want x-brother while soloing, wouldn't a stance do just as well (such as Warspeech used to work for minstrels).

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So, does this address the herald being sucky at DPS? Maybe, cos it turns their DPS into a buff on the captain. Why not just dump the herald and cut out the middle man?

Does this address the pathing? Nope.

Does this address the herald dying to AoE skills? Well maybe if it is not in melee, but you are still stuck with the annoying "positioning it just right". I'll give you half marks.

Does this address the eye mechanic and the issues it causes with pets? Nope.

So marks out of for? one maybe, one 1/2 and two nopes.

That's how I manage, with LOGIC.

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

Let me deconstruct.
1. Making the herald do no damage, but still being vulnerable to attacks (OK, so far this means there is even less reason to keep this thing around, all the bad stuff of a melee pet with no melee bonus!)

2. New fellowship buff - Raise banner (ok, why are we doing new buffs again?)

3. New personal buff - Lend x (So basically replacing herald DPS with a buff to captain DPS, and replacing the current heals with a more flexible power OR morale heal)

Blahblah traits relating to the above.

4. ANOTHER new herald skill giving it a defensive buff (uh... to give you more buttons to press when dealing with the stupid thing that isnt even melee hopefully?)

5. A threat copy for something that does 0 DPS and has 1-2 heal skills that are probably going to be for small amounts or on long cooldowns (this will effectively do nothing)


Lets look at my herald issues shall we:



So, does this address the herald being sucky at DPS? Maybe, cos it turns their DPS into a buff on the captain. Why not just dump the herald and cut out the middle man?

Does this address the pathing? Nope.

Does this address the herald dying to AoE skills? Well maybe if it is not in melee, but you are still stuck with the annoying "positioning it just right". I'll give you half marks.

Does this address the eye mechanic and the issues it causes with pets? Nope.

So marks out of for? one maybe, one 1/2 and two nopes.

That's how I manage, with LOGIC.

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1. Making the herald do no damage means he doesn't assist and he doesn't unnecessarily aggro stuff when you pull. People have complained about this

2. This buff is intended to replace the aura, since the technical difficulties behind the aura range appear to be well documented.

3. Is "blahblahblah" supposed to be some form of "logic" I do not understand? I'm finding it hard to follow your critique there -- I actually consider the buffs "less" flexible, because buffing the captain makes it harder to keep the herald alive (since he's spending his own morale/power).

4. What you call a "defensive" buff is herald utility. A herald can't cast when he's dazed/stunned.

5. The idea behind this skill is to provide an oh-snap button when your herald gets jumped while you're out of combat by something that can take him away quickly (and this can be very quickly, given that the herald uses his own health to heal the captain).

To me, it looks like you'd like to have good utility from the pet, while not doing any work to keep this utility available. That's unlikely to happen, as it's never been the case before, neither for heralds (heralds could die), nor for standards (standards were on a timer/cooldown).

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Originally Posted by Bezmer

1. Making the herald do no damage means he doesn't assist and he doesn't unnecessarily aggro stuff when you pull. People have complained about this

2. This buff is intended to replace the aura, since the technical difficulties behind the aura range appear to be well documented.

3. Is "blahblahblah" supposed to be some form of "logic" I do not understand? I'm finding it hard to follow your critique there -- I actually consider the buffs "less" flexible, because buffing the captain makes it harder to keep the herald alive (since he's spending his own morale/power).

4. What you call a "defensive" buff is herald utility. A herald can't cast when he's dazed/stunned.

5. The idea behind this skill is to provide an oh-snap button when your herald gets jumped while you're out of combat by something that can take him away quickly (and this can be very quickly, given that the herald uses his own health to heal the captain).

To me, it looks like you'd like to have good utility from the pet, while not doing any work to keep this utility available. That's unlikely to happen, as it's never been the case before, neither for heralds (heralds could die), nor for standards (standards were on a timer/cooldown).

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1. This is an improvement, but not a solution since the herald still aggros just by being one extra body that does not exactly follow your footsteps.

2. I see, it wasnt clear it was a replacement. I don't really understand why you want different buffs (the herald buffs are actually not bad atm)

3. The traits thing is basically irrelevant to my points, ofc the traits will need to do something else if the herald does no dps so i just put blahblah to show I am aware but not commenting directly. As for the heals now being "heals" rather than masochistic captain style heals well sure I guess thats an improvement, but I figured they are like that for a reason.

4. The herald is so irrelevant atm I dont _care_ if he is stunned/dazed. And frankly these changes aren't going to make me care.

5. You could just toss a words of courage for the same effect since the herald will produce ZERO threat unless he heals the captain in that time.

I want banners back. I have been told that is not going to happen. So I am asking for a herald as close to banners in functionality as is humanly possible. BANNERS (as opposed to the new standards) cooldown was basically irrelevant (3 seconds?). They had a power cost that was significant, and they lasted 5 minutes before you had to replace them. That worked for me.

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

1. This is an improvement, but not a solution since the herald still aggros just by being one extra body that does not exactly follow your footsteps.

2. I see, it wasnt clear it was a replacement. I don't really understand why you want different buffs (the herald buffs are actually not bad atm)

3. The traits thing is basically irrelevant to my points, ofc the traits will need to do something else if the herald does no dps so i just put blahblah to show I am aware but not commenting directly. As for the heals now being "heals" rather than masochistic captain style heals well sure I guess thats an improvement, but I figured they are like that for a reason.

4. The herald is so irrelevant atm I dont _care_ if he is stunned/dazed. And frankly these changes aren't going to make me care.

5. You could just toss a words of courage for the same effect since the herald will produce ZERO threat unless he heals the captain in that time.

I want banners back. I have been told that is not going to happen. So I am asking for a herald as close to banners in functionality as is humanly possible. BANNERS (as opposed to the new standards) cooldown was basically irrelevant (3 seconds?). They had a power cost that was significant, and they lasted 5 minutes before you had to replace them. That worked for me.

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1. Technically, this is true. In practice, it's been very rare for me that the herald will aggro something unless (1) I jumped off a cliff, or (2) he was trying to assist.

2. Altering the current auras if they convert into buffs isn't technically necessary. But if they're going to be on a cooldown longer than the timer, might as well pump them up a bit.

3. The current Herald traits are irrelevant, because the herald damage is irrelevant. Given the overall reluctance of Turbine to give any sort of relevancy to heralds as melee assist, I thought I'd steer the discussion in a different direction. I feel that if the herald can provide a substantial buff to the captain, as well as a reasonable source of morale and power heals, it may be worth keeping around and traiting for.

4. Right. The main motivation behind trying to churn something out was precisely that the herald is currently quite irrelevant.

5. Fair enough. Consider this a redundancy mechanism then.


I don't particularly want banners back. I play solo a lot and I like to have my x-brother skills. I already think it's great that we can get banner stats _and_ herald utility at the same time. And I think there is enough that can be done with the herald so that he's worth keeping around without being as much of a nuisance as he is right now.

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Originally Posted by Bezmer

1. Technically, this is true. In practice, it's been very rare for me that the herald will aggro something unless (1) I jumped off a cliff, or (2) he was trying to assist.

2. Altering the current auras if they convert into buffs isn't technically necessary. But if they're going to be on a cooldown longer than the timer, might as well pump them up a bit.

3. The current Herald traits are irrelevant, because the herald damage is irrelevant. Given the overall reluctance of Turbine to give any sort of relevancy to heralds as melee assist, I thought I'd steer the discussion in a different direction. I feel that if the herald can provide a substantial buff to the captain, as well as a reasonable source of morale and power heals, it may be worth keeping around and traiting for.

4. Right. The main motivation behind trying to churn something out was precisely that the herald is currently quite irrelevant.

5. Fair enough. Consider this a redundancy mechanism then.


I don't particularly want banners back. I play solo a lot and I like to have my x-brother skills. I already think it's great that we can get banner stats _and_ herald utility at the same time. And I think there is enough that can be done with the herald so that he's worth keeping around without being as much of a nuisance as he is right now.

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1. You obviously don't do the instances where it is possible to avoid some of the fights by hugging a wall IF you unsummon all pets first.

2. I would rather have cooldowns shorter than timers and basically make them work _like_ auras, but with a decent range.

3. I appreciate this is a different approach than my own suggestions *shrugs* But thats basically the opposite to what I would prefer since my issue is not just that heralds are irrelevant, but also that they are _annoying_.

4. Heralds in this case will never have aggro. As such, the only way they will get a stun or mez is if it is an AoE. So rather than a new skill, just tie them to the captains one so they get the benefits at the same time. If it matters that much anyway.

*Shrugs* All my suggestions are for an ALTERNATIVE herald summon (the Oathbreaker summon if you will). I am not saying dump the herald completely, I am saying put in an alternative for us pet-haters.

And as an entirely separate complaint, is it just me or do we have 4 separate "Master of War" buffs with identical or similar icons? That's really annoying!

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

1. You obviously don't do the instances where it is possible to avoid some of the fights by hugging a wall IF you unsummon all pets first.

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Well, I'm not sure being able to skip mobs is intentional in the first place :P

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

2. I would rather have cooldowns shorter than timers and basically make them work _like_ auras, but with a decent range.

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I guess you're still considering BB as a main issue here? Would it be useful (and possible?) to make the buffs from herald apply to all nearby allied units, including the BB soldiers? That way range won't be a problem IMO because the aura will still affect a lot of allies.

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

3. I appreciate this is a different approach than my own suggestions *shrugs* But thats basically the opposite to what I would prefer since my issue is not just that heralds are irrelevant, but also that they are _annoying_.

4. Heralds in this case will never have aggro. As such, the only way they will get a stun or mez is if it is an AoE. So rather than a new skill, just tie them to the captains one so they get the benefits at the same time. If it matters that much anyway.

*Shrugs* All my suggestions are for an ALTERNATIVE herald summon (the Oathbreaker summon if you will). I am not saying dump the herald completely, I am saying put in an alternative for us pet-haters.

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Sadly I'm reaching the same conclusions, heralds are becoming more and more annoying for every day. Adding more Herald skills is IMO a waste, might as well just give the Captain himself more/better buffs to offset your suggested Herald skills. If I were to suggest some Herald skills I'd rather see additional skills in terms of controling the herald efficiently, afaik there is not a /follow-target for Heralds? What about making a ground-targeted skill to direct the Herald to go to?

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

And as an entirely separate complaint, is it just me or do we have 4 separate "Master of War" buffs with identical or similar icons? That's really annoying!

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Yes! I would really like to see some renaming of some of those buffs.

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Well, I'm not sure being able to skip mobs is intentional in the first place :P

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Then they shouldnt make patrols with handy side rooms you can duck into while the patrols pass. I am mostly talking about various caves I have explored while leveling rather than regular instances, but I am sure there are regular instances where it applies too.

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

I guess you're still considering BB as a main issue here? Would it be useful (and possible?) to make the buffs from herald apply to all nearby allied units, including the BB soldiers? That way range won't be a problem IMO because the aura will still affect a lot of allies.

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This would be a valid alternative, but frankly much more of a gamechanger for BBs because the NPCs have much more influence on the battle in the main areas, and much less influence in the side quests. As for the tech, I am not sure how it would work. It may even make captains more useful in a raid because it might end up working like Standards so it helps the entire raid/even non-grouped people (within a limited area).

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Sadly I'm reaching the same conclusions, heralds are becoming more and more annoying for every day. Adding more Herald skills is IMO a waste, might as well just give the Captain himself more/better buffs to offset your suggested Herald skills. If I were to suggest some Herald skills I'd rather see additional skills in terms of controling the herald efficiently, afaik there is not a /follow-target for Heralds? What about making a ground-targeted skill to direct the Herald to go to?

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*Shrugs* Dump the peasant, give us a real alternative IMHO. Pathing will still be an issue whatever you do.

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Yes! I would really like to see some renaming of some of those buffs.

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And more visual effects for the more important buff (Auto crit on next skill is far more important than 6% crit chance or whatever)

I know what we need, Herald Throw! Just steal the mechanic from Saints Row 2 :P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlNSdrwExP0 (lotsa violence)

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

I know what we need, Herald Throw! Just steal the mechanic from Saints Row 2 :P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlNSdrwExP0 (lotsa violence)

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Let me just give the herald a Dubstep gun while I'm at it.

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Originally Posted by RockX

Let me just give the herald a Dubstep gun while I'm at it.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Em4hG_yO7gU

Haha, then we can really show those silly Minstrels how to crush orcs with music :D

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Originally Posted by RockX

Let me just give the herald a Dubstep gun while I'm at it.

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So RockX, while we have your attention, what are your thoughts on the state of the Herald?

Is it a "You are stuck with it, make the best of it" or "I'm already digging a shallow grave"?