Thanks for stopping by, and for taking in the feedback provided. I love LOTRO, and I really wish to keep on loving it for a long time yet. By weighing in and letting us know you are reading, it's already helping.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frelorn
Printable View
Thanks for stopping by, and for taking in the feedback provided. I love LOTRO, and I really wish to keep on loving it for a long time yet. By weighing in and letting us know you are reading, it's already helping.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frelorn
Thanks for this comment and for taking the feedback. Crossing fingers!Quote:
Originally Posted by Frelorn
Very nice to hear it. There are a few suggestions that I've made on my OP of what I consider reasonable for the grind. Perhaps the team can take a look at it? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Frelorn
That's one thing I do sorely miss, I'll be honest about that. I only started playing in time to actually get to pre-order one Expac, and that was Helms Deep. RoR launched just previous to me starting the game, and was the new content. It was great to experience that anticipation and wait for launch of HD (even if that expac was not as great as some of the earlier ones). I'd watched my hubby get excited for years previous to that, when he was pre-ordering Moria, RoI, RoR etc. I did still get some sense of excitement when I purchased all those for myself, but the anticipation part of it wasn't quite the same as pre-ordering.Quote:
Originally Posted by BangoTwinkletoes
I miss expansions.
I'm surprised that Frelorn chimed in on this thread.
But don't kid yourselves, this isn't the first time Turbine has said "The team is going to be looking into..."
Just saying...
I'm a hopeless optimist, so, it works for me at the moment :)Quote:
Originally Posted by bucko39
Hello my old friend. I believe I chimed in on a thread in the past where you had been whining that the game had 'become a grind'. You were complaining that quests "now" were just endless go here go there fetch this, and I asked you exactly what was your complaint. You did not like that post anymore then this one. :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurin
In fact I think you have been waiting and dying to pounce on me ever since. But I stick by it. What has changed about quests. Day one in this game I had to run here and there and fetch and carry and I have fetched and carried from level 5 to 95 -- and then 5 more for good measure.
Does the fact of the 'store' change some of this. Yes I think it does. Not just our perception but the reality of it. Turbine does a booming business selling LI upgrades be it star-lits or legacy tier increases. Turbine does a booming business selling essence removal scrolls. Does that make me suspect that the accountants are rubbing their collective hands with glee with all the new jewelry. Every toon in the game that wants to be all he, she can be needs re work their toons to up grade from the two slotted jewelry from the last release to the 3 slotted jewelry of this release. For most this will also entail redoing some armor pieces.
So is it possible the need for some of these things was motivated by the desire for turbine to make a profit and not for the enjoyment and benefit of the players. Yeppers. But that does not negate the fact the OP was complaining about grinds that make one toon better equipped. Stronger, better able to kill, then a toon that has not done them. And that my friend has always been the nature of online games. It is this way by necessity. To keep playing a game we the players need to feel there is something we want in game that is obtainable by playing the game. The thing we all want is to be better than. Better then we were, and better then the other guy.
PS old friend - you are right. I only read the first post. I had avoided opening this up till today because I really did not want to read another post bellyaching about 'the grind' of vitues and the grind of this and that. To me this is the nature of the beast and it has always been this way. But after a post gets legs like this one and goes to 19 pages I felt it was time to read the original post and refocus folks on what the OP said. So often these threads get derailed and become some sill feud.
Link?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandie2
I have noted ("whined" of course in your vernacular) that at this stage of the adventure, we probably shouldn't be washing dishes anymore. Other than that, I think you have me confused with someone else.Quote:
You were complaining that quests "now" were just endless go here go there fetch this, and I asked you exactly what was your complaint. You did not like that post anymore then this one. :-)
Wow. I think that you think that others are thinking about you too much.Quote:
In fact I think you have been waiting and dying to pounce on me ever since.
I honestly have no idea who you are. Nor any recollection of interacting with you before. I'm sure we have interacted at some point since I've (sadly) made almost 4000 posts. But apparently I made a much bigger impression upon you than the reverse.
Not enough. But as I said, I think you have me confused with someone else.Quote:
What has changed about quests.
And what were you doing on day 1. Where were you in-game. And what was going on around you? What had your character experienced? And now compare that state to where we are now. Perhaps you begin to see the only point I've made about current quest content.Quote:
Day one in this game I had to run here and there and fetch and carry and I have fetched and carried from level 5 to 95 -- and then 5 more for good measure.
I know.Quote:
PS old friend - you are right. I only read the first post.
Well, it hadn't been derailed. Well, until you just began talking about quests and quests content in order to carry on some bizarre, long-forgotten argument you seem to think we had (and we may have, I just simply don't recall).Quote:
But after a post gets legs like this one and goes to 19 pages I felt it was time to read the original post and refocus folks on what the OP said. So often these threads get derailed and become some sill feud.
But, as originally stated, all of your questions and "points" have been addressed (hence my skipping the two paragraphs in this latest reply where you pull out all the dismissive cliches and tropes about "grind"). Please do us the courtesy of getting caught up before dragging us all back through it again.
And, while we're on the topic of courtesy, I am asking you politely to knock off the "my friend" and "dear friend" stuff. Everyone sees what you're doing. We've been asked to tone down the hostility and I'm doing so. And please don't insult everyone's intelligence by asserting that you actually mean it.
--H
Thank you for replying to this thread, Frelorn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frelorn
But - at least for me - this update was the straw that broke the camel's back.
To sum up my feelings towards this whole grind: I have simply stopped playing and paying at the rate I did before.
The total sum of around €1200 I spent since 2010 until the end of 2013 has dwindled to zero, nada, niente since 2014.
My total game time of around 40 hours per week in 2010 which had dropped to around 15 hours a week pre-U16 sees me clocking 2 hours per week (if at all) after U17.
2015 saw pushed-back dead-lines, rushed half-finished content, failed hardware-upgrades and botched transfer timelines in stunning regularity.
While the U16 imbued LI-system was announced with the official line of reducing the "craft-and-grind aspect of the LI system" and having LIs which "grow with you", in reality it was exactly the opposite. Grind has reached a never before imagined extent, and LIs grow without us/after us.
Why would I spend less time and money on this?
Really?
Does that really need an answer?!?
<sigh> Okay, let's try to sum it up...
Zero worthwhile, bug-riddled end-content with exponentially increasing amounts of grind each update.
Fun-factor and server-performance dropping in free-fall while the bug-ratio and bug-intensity are ever increasing.
The player base was and is being sucked up in a store-driven black hole powered by a money-hungry, quality-despising, small-minded, customer-ignoring tie-and-suit-elite of managers.
Note: I am not accusing the actual devs here, who I suppose would have loved to produce higher quality content. Who are probably suffering under totally ridiculous dead-line setups with a far too small budget and too few programmers, graphics designers, quest authors, etc pp...
It was fun during my first three years (2010 to 2012).
Then the plug was pulled on a brimming-full-to-the-rim pool of good-will towards Turbine.
During the last three years (2013-2015) the pool's walls were chipped at, pick-axed, and finally jackhammered into a sieve by Turbine's/WB shoddy business decisions.
All the while not replacing the plug!
Even with pouring in tanker-loads of water by my rabid fan-status of anything "Lord of the Rings" by JRRT the levels of goodwill were dropping dangerously quickly.
The pool walls easily could take the box-full of lit firecrackers of the gold HD/DA jewelry item grind. Still retaining appreciable levels of good-will.
Even after the skill trees introduction with its concurrent balancing issues (which are still unresolved three years later).
Even with trait points hidden behind the complete quests of the West-Emnet expansion (requiring the then 9 lvl 85-95 alts to go through every last quest of the expansion).
The first stick of dynamite-fishing for money in this dwindling pool of goodwill was the essence grind (universal pots only reasonably available in the store).
Then came the direct hit by the Howitzer shell of the imbued LI system with U16, followed by the bunker-buster bomb of the grind of U17.
Now dust devils are dancing in the drain, a dry desert wind whistling in the cracks of the barely recognizable ruins of this pool.
I am going to take a few more strolls through the content-parched remains of future updates to see how the powers-that-be at WB/TB mess up the rest of the game, see the crumbling sun-bleached skeletons of my once-maxed-out 10 characters be blown over by drifting sands of grind, and letting my once highly active kinship die in its Turbine-induced dehydration sleep.
My decision as of U17: return to the game only to satisfy my rabid "Lord of the Rings" fan-dom curiosity during each update, then leave again.
Maybe have a once-or-twice-a-month look-see what my old buddies from the RT-rounds are still doing, having a chat on their TS.
Plans for money spending on this grind disaster: Phaw! No way!
Plans for actually performing this grind: Hah, never!
For all others who still can and do gain any fun from the current state of the game:
Please, in no way feel attacked by me.
I congratulate you for retaining the spark which I have lost.
I hope that you can retain it - I couldn't.
This is only a personal decision, and a very personal opinion.
I really will miss the friends I made here, but I simply can't force myself to look at the grind disaster this game has become.
Hopefully the good memories will last...
I really hope things will change cause right know the game feels like a chord.
I've lost hope to ever gear-up my alts. While I agree with some grind, i'm only asking for a reasonable/doable one, allowing me to improve more than one char.
Thank you for a well written post, Milogson. You bring up several important issues with the game that Turbine have failed to address.
I canceled my vip some weeks ago. I haven't logged in since then. I've been VIP since 2011 and have spent a lot of time in this game and I have had a lot of fun. Now, Lotro is such a low quality product that I just can't bring myself to pay for it. I'm a fan of middle earth and Tolkien. I would love to continue playing lotro. If Turbine can't keep customers like me, something is very wrong.
My reasons for leaving;
-The grind is just too much.
Especially the things that you must do solo makes me want to stop playing. Lotro is a MMO, I want to have fun with my friends. Also locking trait points behind endless quest lines was a terrible decision. And on top of that the insane grind for morale essence is like some kind of bad joke. The increased use of RNG is even worse.
-Lag
with every update it's getting worse. If Turbine say; it will get better with new servers and hardware , I say; I believe it when I see it. We have waited for years. We have been patient. Also, Turbine blaming their customers for not having good enough computers, (when thousands of these people can play any modern game on max settings) might be one of the most embarrassing things in gaming history.
-Class breaking byggs will never get fixed.
The lore-master is my favourite class. For years now, me and other LM's have sent bugg reports and written posts in the forums. Some byggs have existed since HD beta, during this time we got several new buggs. Non of them has been fixed. I have given up. It is unacceptable. If Turbine had replied to just one of the hundreds of posts in the forums saying -sorry we don't have time to fix it, we are aware of this bug. Then maybe, I would have stayed. (I'm not asking for much here. How about just one (1!) reply in the class forums every second year?!)
-Turbine have failed to listen to feedback in too many situations. To not take advantage of so many dedicated customers and such a great community and not communicating with them is just epic failure.
Good luck Turbine, you'll need it.
I could go on and on, for example; loot tables, messed up trait trees with buggs and serious balance issues, keep releasing unfinished content that we all know will never get fixed, or all the other bugs that will never get fixed. All of it have been brought up so many times....
To me it seams Turbine only cares about $. Nine out of ten changes to the game includes a pointer to the store, EVEN IF YOU ARE VIP!
From now on, you are not getting one cent (or copper) from me.
Wow! I also have several 100's. I decided after doing almost ALL the Holtburg dailies on one guy that I had no intersted in doing that ever again. So I don't. I run around in store bought or mathom hunter armor, complete most of the epic quests, and have a blast...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nimnaur
The grind is unbelieveable if you choose to do it.... I find the game is still fun if you don't. Pay to Win, now that's another subject....
Says the guy who bypassed the grind by exploiting the system and then came on the forums to gloat about it. BTW, according to the exploiters I have talked to, the "punishment", if you can even call it that, was well worth it. GG. ^.^Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandie2
Honestly, what would do it for me is to change the cost of Anfalas Scrolls of Empowerment at the various vendors. Currently, a single Anfalas Scroll of Empowerment costs north of 60,000 shards at the relic master and somewhere close to 3,800 marks and 600 medallions from the legendary barter NPC. Meanwhile, an Eorlingas Scroll of Empowerment costs around 28,000 shards at the relic master and somewhere around 600 marks and 70 medallions at the legendary barter NPC. This is an astronomical increase in cost considering the Anfalas scrolls are only 5 levels higher than the Eorlingas scrolls. I would think aa reduction of at least 30-40% in mark/medallion and shard costs would still be rather expensive, but at least it would make the grind more palatable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frelorn
Anyone who was caught using exploits should be stripped of all top end gear, even any which was obtained without the exploit. I'm fortunate enough not to know anyone personally in game that did that nonsense, not sure I would have the same look on anyone if I did know of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Jagannath
Anyone in here (opposing the original post) that used the exploit, needs to step out and shake the mud off before expecting players to jump into a store to buy what they themselves stole.
I can't wait for someone to drop in, point out the quicker means (DA Training Instances) and then declare all concerns about the grind to be therefore moot. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer55
As before, it's not just about the quantity of the grinding. It's also about the quality of the content that makes up the grinds. People often compare to Virtue grinds. But, the repetitive, day-after-day, to-do list nature of the current grind is what is largely new. As has already been stated numerous times.
I've ground out Virtues on my alts to cap several times. I kitted out several alts in Radiance gear back in the day. There were qualitative differences to those experiences compared to logging in, and just going through a monotonous to-do list of solo activities. And, it can never be said enough, one strongly suspects that it's designed to be onerous.
Perhaps I can't say it any clearer than this. . .
Most people "whining" here would be fully willing to handle any challenge/grind if they had full confidence that the grind is there for the right reasons.
The fundamental problem is that there is a tremendous difference between a grind/challenge put into the game where the designer thought: "I'd really like them to feel like they worked and earned their way to this reward". . . and a grind/challenge put into the game where the designer thought: "I have to make sure this system generates $x of revenue by making this as onerous as possible, thus diverting y people to the Store."
--H
That is awesome Frelorn, thanks to you and the team both for pursuing it and for letting us know it is under consideration! I do admit I decided to shelve my lvl 100 Cappy except as a token earning mule in part because I couldn't face doing it all again after 2 weapons for my hunter and 4 for my RK (Still working on that).Quote:
Originally Posted by Frelorn
I honestly have no problem with some grind...sincerely...it is just this update added so many levels of everything that it did become disheartening.
Lothhil, BW
The most alarming difference between Eorlingas and Anfalas scrolls is you could max a weapon with about 15 Eorlingas scrolls when cap was level 95. Now we need 86 Anfalas scrolls, and by the next update, we will need a lot more than that. Fine for those already working on their weapons, as they are working as they go - really really bad for those that haven't got there yet though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer55
I'm actually quite loath to add a suggestion to alleviate things this evening, because lol, right now, after the last three weeks in game and the last few days in this thread, my suggestion would probably be . . . .
Put an Eyes n Guard in Bree ;)
No player should ever feel it's that bad.
Thank you Frelorn. Now how about the BIGGEST thread in the forum, HOUSING.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frelorn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frelorn
Thank you.
In light of the significant grind involved with ILIs, please ask the Dev Team to take a look at the physical damage for the LM ILI staff. It's fixed, and does not increase at all.
This resulted from an LI adjustment years ago, where the DPS legacy on the LM staff was changed to a tactical damage legacy, and the physical DPS was set to a fixed range midway between the bottom and top ranges for other 2H LI weapons (which continued to have a DPS legacy).
This wasn't a significant problem when we replaced our LIs every expansion, because the staff's physical DPS range would continue to be re-set with the higher level LIs.
Unfortunately, this is no longer the case with ILI staves. The physical DPS of the staff was fine for the first iteration, but as we go through subsequent tier cap increases, the physical DPS of the staff is getting left behind.
The best solution is to do the same thing as was done with 2H weapon passives, which increase gradually with the main legacy. The staff physical damage range should increase gradually, based on the main DPS legacy. This will maintain it in is proper position relative to other 2H weapons.
I was talking this evening actually, to a kin friend of mine, and we were trying to decide why the game seems so empty and quiet of late. We both came to the conclusion that it is probably burn out from the latest grind (seeing as so many people we know are/were complaining about it). We talked over the various ways in which scrolls can be obtained, and DA dailies came up as one of the fastest ways. They are easy to do, but God, we've been running them for 18 months, and they are solo instances. I get the feeling I'm the only person playing the game when I'm in them. I do them, sometimes, but frequency is dropping dramatically. I have no idea why Turbine decided that a grind mechanism, which would be one of the most efficient methods for carrying out one of the longest living in game grinds - should be closed solo. If level cap is not going to see another rise, are we expected to still be running DA dailies a year or more from now I wonder? I ran Hytbold for 44 days, on 5 alts, and loved it, because there was something to gain at the end of it. I'm not talking just gear here, because I could get all the gear I needed after running it on one alt. I'm talking about satisfaction at seeing the city rebuilt in all it's glory and the sense of achievement that came with it. With DA dailies, I'm sick of the sight of them, plus they are tied to really poor RNG. I traded in 24 boxes last week and got a big fat zero of what I was after. Where Turbine want people to willingly participate in grinds for 18 months or more, it would probably be a good idea not to base the rewards from that grind on luck (especially for those that have bad luck).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurin
What was the punishment?Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Jagannath
Minimal. On this one the Jagannath AKA the ### clown, is correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by katia0203
It's part and parcel of the shift in game focus towards casual/solo vs, well. . . multiplayer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnenna
Hytbold was the culmination of that switch in emphasis. For years, the time-pressed, non-social, or merely just shy demanded that they should be able to get the absolute best gear in the game without doing what the game's design called upon them to do (group up). They demanded that the game instead conform to what they preferred to do (which is play the game solo on their terms). With Hytbold, they got what they demanded. But for design reasons too complicated to go into here, Turbine couldn't provide a solo experience commensurate in difficulty to a raid (and thus a reasonable source of endgame quality loot according to the old tried and true standard). So, instead, we got the daily batch of repeatable quests for day, after day, after day. Coordination, communication, learning together, persistence in the face of defeat, and so many other things were replaced with quest cooldowns, rep grinds, and token grinds while doing the same few short quests over, and over, and over, and over.
It all begins with Hytbold. And Hytbold was a result of the solo/casual folks finally getting their way. And now neither the solo/casual (with a few exceptions) nor the raider/grouper are happy.
And I write all of this as someone who had to stop raiding right after Moria (the first of my kids arrived). Even though I was no longer a raider, I recognized the role they played in the game. And indeed, recognized that they provided a sense of something bigger and greater out there, where some were facing the toughest challenges and earning the greatest rewards, and that was a valuable thing to a game, even for those in the game who would never set foot in a raid.
Thanks for taking the time to reply and acknowledge the issue being addressed in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frelorn
That said, I have absolutely no doubt that the issue will be looked into from a financial standpoint, not a content standpoint. If data shows that revenue increased as a result of increased scroll purchases from the store, the grind is likely to increase rather than decrease. Speaking your mind (civilly) on these forums is one way to be heard. I have done so myself. Speaking with your wallet is the most effective way of ensuring your opinion is heard by those making the decisions that will affect the future of the game. How you choose to do this is best determined on an individual basis. Even then, understand it may not matter. The system they have in place is similar to mobile apps. High spenders basically find the game for the majority of players. If X number of players quit due to the grind, but Y number of players increase their spending above what X players previously contributed financially, then the scroll grind will have been considered a success.