Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

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Originally Posted by Valather89

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Ty for this Valather! *Smiles!*

One of the things I want to point out is that there is an inaccuracy on this map.

Look at Erebor in particular. Notice how the Lonely Mountain is surrounded in "orange" signifying developed terrain. However, that's not strictly true. There's a blockaded road leading north of the Iron Hills due north of Utterby. There are marshlands visible to the northeast by east of the Withered Heath. However, there is no contiguity - no landscape connections - between those zones. We may not, in fact, ride around the Lonely Mountain as the image would imply. Nor may we ride from the north side of Erebor and down into the Iron Hills from the north. It isn't developed terrain. Only the Iron Hills and the Iron-fold leading out to it = developed.

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Originally Posted by seekingerin

Oh, I don't think the game is going anywhere any time soon, and I hope it doesn't. I just thought it might be an interesting thought experiment and a way to frame a discussion about what areas of the game we're most interested in seeing. :)

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Much agreed! Keep this thread alive! :D

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Originally Posted by seekingerin

It's interesting to note some of the areas the devs have not marked as developed on this map. There's the far north of Mirkwood, as you mention; the bit of Mirkwood west of Dol Guldur; portions in and around the Misty Mountains to the north and South of Moria; the area between Angmar and Gundabad; the Weather Marches/Goblins of Mount Gram area; even the stretch of the White Mountains east of the Paths of the Dead is unmarked. That doesn't necessarily mean we're going to see all these areas developed, but it does mean SSG knows and acknowledges them as undeveloped and may consider them in play for future development. It would have been easy for them say, nah, we've done Southern Mirkwood, or we've done Northern Mirkwood, or we've developed all the way up to the Misty and White Mountains, so we can fill in all the mountains and the northern and southern ends of the forest. We've done enough. But they haven't done that, which had to have been a deliberate choice. They've identified and acknowledged the gaps.

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Yes, and I've noticed a couple more inaccuracies: Central Gondor. Actually, that orange area should be thinner on a vertical axis as we can't access those vales between some of those spurs of the White Mountains that are closed-off to player access; we may only see them from a distance.

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Originally Posted by seekingerin

A year ago, I would have thought it was unlikely that we would ever make it to Forodwaith, since it's such a barren land; but Loknashra's storyline is unfinished, and we've gotten some hints that there are things afoot with the hobgoblins in the north. I think a Forodwaith is very much in the realm of possibilities.

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Yes. It'll be interesting to see how they might plan to have "Drugoth" play a role in what comes next; it'll mean he's the last, even if a spirit, of the evil started by Agath-Kali in Bar Nirnaeth and the Witch-King in Minas Morgul.

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Originally Posted by seekingerin

I'm really hoping that CardoSwan and the technologies they've been leveraging and the work Scenario has been doing in recent years mean that we might get larger zones in the future. Rhun, as you say, warrants it; so potentially do Harad, Khand, Nurn, Forodwaith, and southern Eriador. There are many places in Middle Earth that would probably have been too large, too lightly populated, or too far away to develop properly a few years ago. But I think the technology and techniques that made CardoSwan possible could also make a lot of other places possible and raise the likelihood that we may actually get to see all the far-flung corners of Middle Earth someday.

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Much agreed! It'll be fun to see how they fill-out the world moving forward! My hope also is that this will lessen the "Iron Hills" effect, where they, in my view, made a mistake to under-scale the zone more so than other zones under the pretext it might be "boring" to have to ride that far. Well, I beg to differ. Those Iron Hills should be a great deal further east of Erebor than they are, and it would've been fun to have other Dale-ish towns like Utterby out there . . . maybe some hidden delvings to hone-in on the "Howling Pit" theme a bit more. I'm very glad that they are adopting the opposite philosophy with CardoSwan *smiles.*

I also think that the River Carnen, because Iron Hills is too far west, is way too close to the Celduin; the rivers are practically parallel. So, as with the Royal Road in CardoSwan, I think they should do 2 things: A- Expand the Iron Hills eastward, maybe by having an "eastern exit" from an expanded Jarnfast; B- Just redirect the flow of the Carnen due eastward for a bit, away from that line of cliffs that borders Long Lake, just so that the two rivers don't get too close to each other and converge closer to Dorwinion. I still can't stress enough: A Dorwinion without Elves of any sort will make me pretty sad; I really hope they'll do something magnificent. Tolkien hinted in his drafts there are other hidden Elven realms out there - like Thranduil's in Felegoth.

My favorite way of imagining Dorwinion is like this (*Scenario, please do feel free to rip any of these ideas XD ): Perched higher above cliffs, with perhaps a wide vale brimming with vineyards, perhaps some hills / mountains surrounding it, smaller river tributaries running through it. I like to imagine a hidden Elven realm built beneath the cliffs / mountains right on the northwestern Sea of Rhun Felegoth-style, maybe with great "windows" - meaning, just big openings in the cliff-face, overlooking the sea from farther above, perhaps a hidden harbor several levels below, and that perhaps, whatever devastation afflicted Rhun, they may have hidden themselves and survived. This could be a neat concept for a player main hub and explain where Thranduil was really getting his wine from - and that, perhaps, it was indeed Elvish wine!

The Chayasir could've dwelt in the vale itself, above-ground, while the Elves --- like the Avorrim cave Elves near Dol Amroth - largely kept to themselves in their own hidden vastness. There's just so much fun stuff they could imagine out there . . . and Tolkien left plenty of room for it. These "Avari" could have their own made-up name; Thranduil could have visited them and could've taught them how to build a hidden realm of Felegoth's sort . . . they could be cut from the same cloth, as it were, as the Wood-Elves.

I still can't thank the Devs enough, especially Scenario, for all they're doing :) All my commentary's stemming from pure enthusiasm, nothing more or less :D All in good spirits!

My big take away from Scenario's stream (though I literally covered my screen at parts, didn't want too much spoilers) is this: the adjacent zones seem connected beautifully and in really open ways, evoking a sense of truly open-world. Here is hoping the Southern gate in Mithrenost in the Lonelands will be opened up as well!

Also, all this despite it being a starter zone with lvl 1 peeps walking around... so I would say Scenario overdramatizes a bit when he points out a certain "reluctance" they have :D But what I've already seen of Swanfleet and its connections is great, don't shy away from this, also such a great occasion to observe and see whether there'll be many complaints about something like this from new players or whether it's just something that doesn't bother people at all. If no complaints = then you can become even less reluctant when the situation calls for it ;)

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Originally Posted by Phantion

Much agreed! It'll be fun to see how they fill-out the world moving forward! My hope also is that this will lessen the "Iron Hills" effect, where they, in my view, made a mistake to under-scale the zone more so than other zones under the pretext it might be "boring" to have to ride that far. Well, I beg to differ. Those Iron Hills should be a great deal further east of Erebor than they are, and it would've been fun to have other Dale-ish towns like Utterby out there . . . maybe some hidden delvings to hone-in on the "Howling Pit" theme a bit more. I'm very glad that they are adopting the opposite philosophy with CardoSwan *smiles.*

I also think that the River Carnen, because Iron Hills is too far west, is way too close to the Celduin; the rivers are practically parallel. So, as with the Royal Road in CardoSwan, I think they should do 2 things: A- Expand the Iron Hills eastward, maybe by having an "eastern exit" from an expanded Jarnfast; B- Just redirect the flow of the Carnen due eastward for a bit, away from that line of cliffs that borders Long Lake, just so that the two rivers don't get too close to each other and converge closer to Dorwinion. I still can't stress enough: A Dorwinion without Elves of any sort will make me pretty sad; I really hope they'll do something magnificent. Tolkien hinted in his drafts there are other hidden Elven realms out there - like Thranduil's in Felegoth.

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They do need to extend Iron Hills or - at least - just leave it intact, it is what it is, but if they develop Dorwinion and then Rhun... make it extra large, so the Sea of Rhun is actually pushed as far East as possible! Because it should be pretty far, otherwise it will come across as pretty funny, like a gravity of some kind had pulled it towards the West. Or a devastation :P But I doubt that would be a plausible explanation :P
Maybe extending Dalelands a bit South/South-East, so it feels more like a Kingdom, could help to have more content there, before we get into Dorwinion.

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Originally Posted by Phantion

The Chayasir could've dwelt in the vale itself, above-ground, while the Elves --- like the Avorrim cave Elves near Dol Amroth - largely kept to themselves in their own hidden vastness.

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Nah. The Chayasir have me at the edge of my seat really, because there is a chance they might be from beyond Orocarni... though it's possible they're from the mountains near the Sea, but then again, that's actually almost the backyard of Dorwinion so in that case they shouldn't be all that aware of the devastation IN Rhun proper... and they really seemed to have come a looong way, the longest of all the refugees... which makes me think of Orocarni, and it's not like the game would shy away from it... it's already a thing in the lore, with the other dwarven clans, would be amazing to delve into it a bit more or what could possibly be in this part of the world, beyond the bounds of the map and beyond the bounds of Middle-earth proper...

Scenario's "baby" looks absolutely gorgeous. The devs can and should be very proud of what they've created there. That big waterfall, the blue skies, the woodlands, the swans, the hobbit villages and elvish ruins, and, most of all, the open feel it gives to that big part of Eriador...

The hype is strong and I'm really looking forward to seeing Cardolan.

Also, there will be new maps for the adjacent regions (and I caught a glimpse of Eregion's), which is nice. I've grown to like the style and they are getting better at it. First time "Western Enedwaith" is mentioned, too.

For RL reasons, work, time zones..., not all of us can watch Scenario's streams live (I always watch them on Youtube), so we don't have the chance to ask. @Scenario, could you set an official question page in these forums for those who can't attend the live streaming and are willing to ask? Many thanks!

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Nah. The Chayasir have me at the edge of my seat really, because there is a chance they might be from beyond Orocarni... though it's possible they're from the mountains near the Sea, but then again, that's actually almost the backyard of Dorwinion so in that case they shouldn't be all that aware of the devastation IN Rhun proper... and they really seemed to have come a looong way, the longest of all the refugees... which makes me think of Orocarni, and it's not like the game would shy away from it... it's already a thing in the lore, with the other dwarven clans, would be amazing to delve into it a bit more or what could possibly be in this part of the world, beyond the bounds of the map and beyond the bounds of Middle-earth proper...

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Ummm --- among the Chayasir are NPC's labeled as from "Dorwinion" and who are visually identical... and I didn't encounter quest-text saying they're different groups.... not that I can remember. Whether the Devs construe them as part of the same group or as distinct groups remains to be seen, but the general impression I got from the quest-text is that they're from Rhun and are fleeing its devastation.


Now I think I remember what you're referring to: the business about them climbing a snowy mountain pass..... so I guess that's possible.... I also thought it could've been the Mountains of Rhun though. I'm not sure. The writing side of me thinks this is a tale that needs some clear revisions to clarify to us exactly where these groups come from and how they happened to end-up in the Dale-lands. We also learn that, waaaay back when, the Chayasir originated in the ancient Dale-lands, which is interesting.

So......... we'll have to wait and see what they do, I guess :) It reminds me of when we first ran into the non-descript "Dunlendings" in Eregion who at the time resembled the Trev Duverdain . . . and it took Enedwaith and RoI to dig deeper and change-up their looks into the different groups from the Algraig to the Stag and Ox and Avanc and Boar and Falcon and so forth.

I suspect they'll want to do something similar when we get out there :) Here's hoping :)

Cheers! :D

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Originally Posted by Phantion

Ummm --- among the Chayasir are NPC's labeled as from "Dorwinion" and who are visually identical... and I didn't encounter quest-text saying they're different groups.... not that I can remember. Whether the Devs construe them as part of the same group or as distinct groups remains to be seen, but the general impression I got from the quest-text is that they're from Rhun and are fleeing its devastation.


Now I think I remember what you're referring to: the business about them climbing a snowy mountain pass..... so I guess that's possible.... I also thought it could've been the Mountains of Rhun though. I'm not sure. The writing side of me thinks this is a tale that needs some clear revisions to clarify to us exactly where these groups come from and how they happened to end-up in the Dale-lands. We also learn that, waaaay back when, the Chayasir originated in the ancient Dale-lands, which is interesting.

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Yeah, this is all interesting, but the visual thing would be in part to what you said about the Dunlendings of old, they just didn't care for more variety and assets at the time and technically they're all the same ethnicity so the looks served its purpose. I mean, it was similar with the Stout-axes too when first encountered in Mordor. LOL. Haven't been back there in a while, have they ever updated them? (my guess is no because they don't have time to go back ;P)

But yeah, it's hard to tell how much apart they're supposed to be. But the Chayasir mentioned being at the Sea and then seeing both retreating and new gleaming orderly armies (and that was after mountains already shook) so if it's After the Fall it can't really refer to the gleaming armies that left for Dale under Sauron's banner, gotta be a new one I guess? Maybe Blue Wizards at war? LOL. Through it's interesting how exactly that would be handled and how they managed to raise a new one. Either way this sounds like the Chayasir have seen enough of the core of Rhun, if they've seen such things, not mere provinces? It would be weird to come down from the mountains near the Sea with the intention of escape but then stroll near the Sea and central provinces of Rhun where these armies would be found. Granted, we don't know how it works geographically, but still, for all we know Rhun might extend as far as Orocarni :) That would explain the Zhelruka too. Unless their Hall of Torrents (which collapsed recently, I think that's how it was called?) was already a realm in exile akin to Thorin's Hall, in the mountains near the Sea, because they would have already left Orocarni a long time ago. Well, yes, all these things are a bit unclear... frustrating a player can't just ask questions, is just sitting there when everyone mentions a mysterious devastation in Rhun :D

Swanfleet is beautiful. I think I've been less interested in Swanfleet than in Cardolan for a few reasons: it's a smaller area, it looks less populated on the leaked maps, and I knew that the steep drop-off between Enedwaith and Swanfleet meant less of Swanfleet was going to have an open, easily traversable border with its neighboring zones than Cardolan. I've also been pretty wary of the enormous delta area; I remember how tedious it was to travel around the Gladden Fields, and I wasn't looking forward to long stretches of swimming when we were inevitably dismounted in deep water.

To the latter point: I'm deeply grateful that the world builders thought of us and our poor horsies and made sure the waters of Wadewater are shallow enough to ride a mount through. And to the larger point, I've absolutely been won over by Scenario's Casual Stroll. I love the natural beauty, the diversity, and the careful detailing of this region. I'm glad we got the stray unmarked Gondorian and elven ruins that populate this region; I love ruins and homes and farms that serve no purpose except to make the landscape more interesting to explore, and I'm glad there appears to be more of that sort of thing in Swanfleet, and hopefully in Cardolan as well. The hobbit settlements are pleasantly quaint; the cliffside that forms the border between Enedwaith and Swanfleet is impressive; and Caras Gelebren looks to be a truly magnificent location that will finally give us the large ruined city that should be in this location. And I also just love how enormous Swanfleet feels. It looks small in comparison to the Cardolan map; seeing Scenario ride through it shows us how vast it truly is. And Cardolan is, of course, even bigger!

It was really interesting to see how the landscape has changed since I saw it earlier in the year. The general height map doesn't seem to have changed too too much since then, though the area around Mossward seems to be much more traversable than it appeared at that point; I honestly didn't expect the Mossward area to be accessible until I saw the Swanfleet map. Comparing the overlook I saw to the overlook we get from Lintrev, there are far more details visible in the distance, which I of course knew was going to be the case; what I saw was clearly early in development. The hills are rougher and more natural-looking now, the vegetation looks a bit more thoughtfully placed, and there are actual structures visible now. Glyn Helyg (it will always be Cliffsburg to me!) and the surrounding areas are much as I remember them, but everything is more detailed and polished. I still love the idea for this village, btw; it's a really cool place. :)

One thing that bugged me that I kind of feel the need to call out is the connection to Maur Tulhau. I assume that the four Stoor villages are meant to be an interconnected community, a sort of miniature Shire that's even more isolated than the Shire proper. So I would expect there to be a road between Maur Tulhau and the other villages. There doesn't seem to be a road, though, and in fact there doesn't appear to be a proper entrance to Maur Tulhau from the other villages. Instead, we're expected to tromp through some dude's back yard. I understand they want to discourage low-level players from accidentally wandering into Enedwaith, but it doesn't look natural and detracts from the sense of interconnectedness between the four villages. Perhaps the plan is to rework this area before the update, and I hope they do so.

I confess to giggling a bit every time Scenario talked about what a well-kept secret Swanfleet was, lol. (You guys! You guys. Guys. I think he's talking about us, you guys, lol.)

/innocent

Scenario alluded to some ambitious plans. From the sounds of it, we have a ton of landscape coming next year; it sounds like the plan may be to give us a comparable amount of landscape to what we received this year. That's exciting! I'm looking forward to what SSG has in store. :)

My bet for next years "ambitious plans of tons of landscape" and a possible third Mordorian expansion would be lake of Nurn and the surrounding landscape. It is the only place that makes more sence to feel out in an "ambitious" way as it seems on the map it is bigger that plaute of Gorgoroth.

Rhun and Harad are so huge and open locations that even in an ambitious stand alone update could not fill it in one shot IMO but calculating terrain. plug in Lake of Nurn would do it ;)

I'm also placing my bet on Nurn. It's what I believe fits the "salt water" tease the best.

Rhun has an inner sea but I wouldn't say it's what defines the place. If I were a developer and wanted to give a hint about Rhun, "the smell of salt water" wouldn't be the first thing that would come to my mind, at all. It's also way too far from the current landscape, we'd need many connecting regions in between: the Barding-lands, Dorwinion, perhaps Middle Mirkwood... It's true that in the past we got Strongholds of the North and that region (Eryn Lasgalen and the Dale-lands) remained isolated from the rest of the game world for more than a year (until we got the Vales of Anduin), so it's technically possible to get sent anywhere on the map even if it's miles away from the current playable space. However, I think the narrative for a Rhun expansion would require some more build-up than what we have now. I don't think getting "teleported" there would work for this situation.

Two big candidates are Harad and Umbar. I'm not 100% sure they aren't coming next, and Umbar certainly fits "the saltwater hint" perfectly. However, there's a huge distance between these southern regions and LOTRO's Gondor: the region in between, Harondor (South Gondor), is a vast place, easily comparable to CardoSwan in size, I believe, and that's not even counting the huge amount of new assets it would require, especially as we approach Harad (arid landscapes, new style for buildings, many new exotic mobs, yadda yadda). So IMO Harondor would have to be the focus of an entire update all by itself. Harondor does have a good amount of coastline as its western border, but I wouldn't really say it's the most noteworthy feature of the zone either. And sure, as I said earlier, getting sent straight into Umbar on a ship is technically possible and that would skip the need to map the entire gap that separates it from the current "world". Would that work, however? The plot hasn't had anything to do with the corsairs for a while, and LOTRO's narrative usually takes its time to build things up.

Anfalas does fit the "smell of salt water" tease, certainly. The coastline is what defines the region (Langstrand). So why don't I think it's the chosen one? Easy: aside from people like us that are completionists and want to see the entire LOTR map, I don't think there would be anyone who would really be excited for a place like Anfalas. They are a business and they want to sell the expansion. Would you say an expansion focused on Anfalas would get the average player pumped up? I certainly would not. It's a region that might work as a secondary update (like Yondershire, the Angle, etc), but not as the focus for the next expansion. This is of course just my opinion.

Minhiriath has a coastline but Scenario ruled that possibility out. Lindon would be neat for another leveling path, but the idea of it being aimed for high level content seems far-fetched.

So that only leaves us Nurn. It directly borders an already existing region (Gorgoroth's map hints at it), it would fill a big chunk of the Mordor regional map and it would further advance LOTRO's current plot threads (more of Sauron's lieutenants). I would also understand the devs being a little hesitant to stray too far from the most known parts of Middle-earth and the events of the Third Age and the War of the Ring, and Nurn seems "conventional" enough, as it is still Mordor after all (which also makes it easily marketable and exciting enough for most fans, as the "Shadow of..." games can attest). It also feels like a perfectly suitable place for high level content, raids, etcetera. And most importantly: if I were Sev and I had to think of something to tease Nurn, the sea of Núrnen would certainly be the first thing to come to mind, as it's undoubtedly the most distinctive part of the region. And yes, I think it's salt water, too. :)

My 2 cents. Now watch me be completely wrong. ;)

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Originally Posted by Valather89

So that only leaves us Nurn. It directly borders an already existing region (Gorgoroth's map hints at it), it would fill a big chunk of the Mordor regional map and it would further advance LOTRO's current plot threads (more of Sauron's lieutenants). I would also understand the devs being a little hesitant to stray too far from the most known parts of Middle-earth and the events of the Third Age and the War of the Ring, and Nurn seems "conventional" enough, as it is still Mordor after all (which also makes it easily marketable and exciting enough for most fans, as the "Shadow of..." games can attest). It also feels like a perfectly suitable place for high level content, raids, etcetera. And most importantly: if I were Sev and I had to think of something to tease Nurn, the sea of Núrnen would certainly be the first thing to come to mind, as it's undoubtedly the most distinctive part of the region. And yes, I think it's salt water, too. :)

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This was a good analysis and yeah, I think/hope it'll be Nurn too, the rest of Mordor is big and can easily house additional regions outside of the expansion too, maybe even Khand. At the very least, Nurn makes the most of sense narratively at the moment and we gotta return to Mordor, it was awkwardly left behind but it still got stuff to deal with

Lindon being high level doesn't sound too off though - first of all, the main epic story gotta take us there with Frodo. So that's already a good cause. But even beyond that, let's say they don't want to bring Frodo to Grey Havens yet. Ok, but it could still work with the story if it's about dealing with the Blue-crag goblins and maybe what remained of Dourhands at Sarnur-proper (that we learnt from Scenario's stream isn't just the dungeon but something more akin to Thorin's Hall, on the other side of the mountains). So that could work. As for their reluctance to do high level stuff next to lower level zones, well... pathways towards Grey Havens seem pretty isolated as they are in Ered Luin, plus they can always use phasing to have these gates blocked for lower lvl players - note how that would tie perfectly into the lower level storyline where they're supposed to be closed off and off limit due to the goblin invasion. So that's NOT a bad idea for exciting content and I'm sure people would be overjoyed to see ELVEN-based content for a change, this makes the location attractive, could even be an expansion if they come up with good enough regional story that maybe could have some connection to a larger one (they could have Drugoth causing trouble there maybe)

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Originally Posted by Valather89

So that only leaves us Nurn. It directly borders an already existing region (Gorgoroth's map hints at it), it would fill a big chunk of the Mordor regional map and it would further advance LOTRO's current plot threads (more of Sauron's lieutenants). I would also understand the devs being a little hesitant to stray too far from the most known parts of Middle-earth and the events of the Third Age and the War of the Ring, and Nurn seems "conventional" enough, as it is still Mordor after all (which also makes it easily marketable and exciting enough for most fans, as the "Shadow of..." games can attest). It also feels like a perfectly suitable place for high level content, raids, etcetera. And most importantly: if I were Sev and I had to think of something to tease Nurn, the sea of Núrnen would certainly be the first thing to come to mind, as it's undoubtedly the most distinctive part of the region. And yes, I think it's salt water, too. :)

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It could also perhaps have ancient ruins of Ostirith, Tirharad, and Hordern along its northern edges. :cool:

Here is what I think is the most important for next Filling the Gaps regions - I gave it some thought and I think the map of Middle-earth with its level ranges speaks volumes about what is needed and where, so the "alternative" flow of the journey can be more or less continuous and not just randomly all over the place.

Keep in mind - the devs can't spew lower lvl regions one after another and neglecting cap, so I kept that in mind and limited myself to what really seems like a great idea and very functional in terms of spots and level ranges. Besides that, there are certain gaps on the map that can work perfectly as cap areas given their prominence/attractiveness/isolation so there is really no need to shoehorn low lvl content into them just "because".



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First of all, I was initially not very keen on the idea of CardoSwanfleet being a starter zone but I must say, it has its merits (I mean, other than being just a subtle ploy during the emergence of RoP). It actually does help with new players who wanna play together, and that's what this new intro is for. Granted, it does introduce a small confusion with Dourhands because their story will pop up apparently out of nowhere for such players on this new path but then again - it's not like Hobbit/Man characters were introduced very well to Dourhand dwarves and Skorgrim plot, that was always a glaring issue. Except with CardoSwanfleet it will become a tiny bit more extreme if CardoSwan doesn't even have any Dourhand intro... because Trollshaws doesn't have them either, and then BOOP, in Misty Mountains there is suddenly the "climax" with Skorgrim! But that's not too terrible, just a minor weirdness. So yes, overall there is an immense value with this starter zone - to make peeps comfy if they wanna play together! It was a huge problem with old starter areas.









So, about my Filling the Gaps thoughts.

Starting with the most important to less important:


1. From crucial stuff, Miniriath (+parts of Enedwaith?) as alternative to Moria.

Seriously, that's one needed the most! It would help to bridge Eriador with Isengard content and circumvent Moria. And no, don't make it too confusing with alternative epics and weird branching off. The player needs to be led to Moria so they're aware there is an important story to experience there, not made to "choose" - that would only lead to frustration. Let it be clear this is an additional region without the epic attached, with its own standalone story that is optional. And create accordingly - so it is indeed optional and creatively self-contained story, so no rangers popping up or elves of Elrond with references to what happened in earlier quest packs! I guess it could still tell a linear, extensive story that explores this region, maybe some cool flavor about Saruman's half-orcs or brigands of the South can be done there? But with Miniriath being so desolate... it would be quite fitting if it was a bit more spread out and free-roam in terms of how these quests and questlines work! Then, all that's needed is a regular vector to Enedwaith at the end of it, leading to the spot where a player would be able to pick up the Grey Company arc. I think that would provide a great value to the game and with new tools/workflow Scenario talked about... the team is certainly more capable to deliver a bigger landmass a bit quicker now :D

2. Mount Gram and surroundings.

This is not as crucial for lvl range but it does represent the biggest, glaring, jarring gap on the map of Eriador right now, the last glaring one remaining! Also, suggested lvl range as alternative route to Angmar would have been useful too. Furthermore, it could provide a means to circumvent Rammas Deluon (the line of sudden death) and give access to Gabilshathur and Eastern Angmar - if someone skipped the epic story, that might be a useful stable master unlock route. Could help flesh out Gabilshathur a bit more, like maybe we bump into some of their explorers in the confusing passes North of Gabilshathur as they're trying to scout their escape route from Angmar, since they're effectively trapped. But it's not really working well because, duh, this alternate route is difficult terrain and tightly secured by Gram forces. We could get Mount Gram. We could FINALLY have proper context/story lead-up to everything that's happening in Ettenmoors and see the troops from Angmar and Gram flowing in the direction of the Moors! This would connect Lonelands, Northdowns and Angmar, and give us more flavor about hill-men, maybe Earth-kin and Rhudhaur too, I bet. All very exciting prospects. Mount Gram can do all that and get rid of the glaring gap! Really - sounds like a priority candidate.


3. Emyn Muil + Nindalf on the Gondor layer of the world (teleport from the East Wall).

Deciding on level range for this may be difficult but it could be a nice alternate entry point to Gondor. Or, at least, it could help to enter Gondor without spending too much time in Rohan. Some people hate Rohan I think, so that makes it useful, plus there is some of Frodo's story still left to explore here. Not as part of the epic, just adventurous exploration quests and all that may feed into Dead Marches (which was a similar style). Hmm, maybe Dead Marches could be extended lvl-wise as well? Orion said he'll take a look into Gondor levelling experience, I think - btw, maybe all of these lvl 100 Gondor regions could be extended a bit? To be lvl 90 something to 105? To allow for more maneuver?


4. West-march of Rohan. A condensed 10 lvl experience with Western reaches of Rohan/borders of Miniriath/the missing chunk of the Royal Road in Dunland (Wulf's Cleft not being part of open-world landscape gotta be solved somehow).

This would connect Dunland content to Western Rohan. One would still need to backtrack to the Entwash on the Eastern side of Western Rohan to begin quest chains and Epics (assuming they haven't out-levelled yet - by doing all of Eriador/Moria in full - and can't jump immediately into "cool" stuff like Helm's Deep that's closer home). But like with Miniriath suggested above - all of that would need to be optional and self-contained, for the most part. Make sure your player realizes the main storyline requires him to start in East Rohan and that's where the weight of the story lies. With West-march being just an optional behind-the-scenes story for Erkenbrand's retreat and overall a well-balanced mix of Rohan, Dunland and Miniriath's landscapes and inhabitants for good measure.




5. Optionally, I guess there is room for additional lower level pathway towards Evendim and Forochel that could help make Ered Luin and Yondershire feel like it's less of a "tunnel." Self-contained stories of course! So it's not being too confusing

6, Similarly, it would be a nice touch to have this new CardoSwan-Trollshaws-Misty levelling pathway extended to lvl 50 - with extension of Misty Mountains, so maybe then we can have a different route from Trollshaws to the Misty Mountains (maybe an old dwarven road that once led to Helegrod?), so not just a "road" through the Last Homely House and the "hidden" valley.... :P

7. Southfarthing - who knows, this one is like a random lottery ticket and no choice would seem ideal here! But this is a region that will be needed to complete the Shire someday, although if we don't want to see Southfarthing ruined... probably not cap?

8. Cap suitable stuff - Forochel/Angmar (because it's dangerous and there is a road that leads to Forodwaith), Lindon and Grey Havens (because it's well isolated, very attractive as expansion and connected to future book storyline), Iron Pass (because it would be an extension of Car Bronach)









Excluding cap candidates... this is not even such a big list! - 7 items and only 4 of those seem extra important, as in: they can provide the greatest value at crucial spots. Meanwhile, they've given us 4 of such filling-the-gap regions already! And gotten better at creation of bigger landmasses. Granted, they need to focus a bit more on cap now. But it's not THAT far-fetched to have these crucial spots dealt with sometime in the future, a few years from now? If they keep it up and make choices that provide the greatest lower level value?


I wonder, does everyone agree this is the most functional potential way for the devs to proceed with these Filling the gaps areas? Or do you feel like something else is needed that's crucially important? I mean, not just your wish list of what you would like to see in the game - but what according to your observations actually feels crucial and like a priority for the game-world connectivity, available leveling and how lvl ranges connect? Did I miss something here?





PS:
Also, throw some additional auto-bestowal / mob dropped item quest activities into the world (standalone and maybe some of them repeatable, can be picked up regardless of quest chain you're on) and see the replayability and free-roam factor of the game increase significantly.

Or, alternatively, item gathering activities like Gundabad geodes, except can be turned in for XP. Or something else, with similar idea, scattered throughout the world.

The more of such activities = the better. Spread them out and observe the magic

And then you can effectively have a functioning *real open-world* like an ESO-styled free-roaming "sandbox" in Middle-earth. One can play through the storyline exactly as intended or feel free to "forge" their own path. (well, not as free as with ESO's level scaling but SIGNIFICANTLY ENOUGH to make a massive difference... and LOTRO is about journey, similar to how Bilbo or the Fellowship journeyed to their destinations, not about teleportation... so this approach, even without the scaling feature, would fit nicely)

Neat map and good suggestions!


I'd also suggest a level 105-115 alternative to Gorgoroth - one that doesn't involve "Light of Earendil."

2 good candidates are:


A- Anfalas / Cape of Andrast. It would finish off "Far Gondor" - and follow from Golasgil's request for the player to tell his people how he died facing the Olog at the Battle of the Black Gate. It could extend "Volume 5" by being about the aftermath of the War of the Ring; the Epic could weave players back through Gondor to pay respects and follow-up on older stories. The Morthond leader needs to return home and tell his wife how his fiery-haired twin sons died against the Mumakil. Much has altered in the politics.

I also think that upon completing the Epic, it should trigger players to see a new day-file in the previous "Dawnless Day" regions. The Ring's destruction should result in a blue skies Eastern and Central Gondor if possible. The alternative would be "after battle" versions, but I think that would be a ton too much to develop and not quite worth the time. I do think South Ithilien warrants a "White Company settled, restored Bar Hurin" for when Faramir and Eowyn take-up their new fiefdom, and plus, all Ithilien deserves to have blue skies. Yet, if the tech's too difficult to work it, I'll understand.

But in any case, Anfalas would be post-War-of-the-Ring, and it could have several areas, including a passage north to the Westmarch of Rohan, a passage along the coast to Druwaith Iaur, and so forth. It would also need to include the halls of the White Mountain Dwarves- given that it's a faction in character creation and all.

B- The areas between Emyn Muil, the current Brown-lands, and South Mirkwood - or perhaps even a "Far Mirkwood" that heads east of Dol Guldor and so forth. This would fill-in a gap that could help lead players further along toward the Eryn Lasgalen content / the destruction of DG from the Black Book. I really think Black Book of Mordor could use a new "on-ramp" for when the quest arc transitions into the northern lands; "Shades in the Swamp" is a bit late to the party, and it's annoying to have to do all of Gorgoroth to get to the Durin / Iron Hills and Grey Mountains parts. But that's a side note; I think the region could explore the aftermath of the coming of the Ents into the Wold and the retreat of Khundolar forces, Dol Guldor on its last legs and perhaps track down and thwart whoever took over the tower after Gorothul's death, and it could prepare for the eventual "Middle Mirkwood / Narrows / East Bight" and "Barding-Lands / Fields of Celduin" as well as frame whatever would come between such a land-mass and Rhun eventually.

I do think either would make for a decent Gorgoroth alternative for those who just don't want to slog through Light of Earendil again; I'd say it's a pretty important gap.

Now, I also think........ "Area B" along the eastern Anduin....... would equally so make for a great "East Rohan" alternative --- perhaps following-up on the Great River / Stangard content. In this case, it would be before the Easterlings invade and are driven from the Wold by the Ents, and it would be more of the lead-up to that offensive. Either way, I think it would work- whether 75 - 85 OR 105-115, etc. I could see either context working.

Anfalas wouldn't make much sense as a cap zone.... it would make total narrative sense following the conclusion of Volume IV Book 9, especially RE- Golasgil. So I'm leaning toward making Anfalas the Mordor alternative and an extended Brown-lands / Far Mirkwood as the East Rohan alternative.

Cheers! :D

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Originally Posted by Phantion

I'd also suggest a level 105-115 alternative to Gorgoroth - one that doesn't involve "Light of Earendil."

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Well, it was in the back of my mind but it is still relatively "fresh" content so didn't bother to give it much thought.

The problem with Anfalas is that it's a big BIG project and (probably?) they can't justify something like that in succession if it isn't cap (..without making players angry, I mean). One update/expansion could not be enough to cover all. As for content - would require heavy gymnastics too, so it's not just a Minas Tirith type of questing. Because you can't have the corsairs there, doesn't make sense considering everything we knew about their plan and advance. Orcs? Not really, aside from minor wild mountain orcs. I guess some brigands maybe but Gondor territory full of brigands would have been off as well. Oath-breakers but that's also like one or two locations at most. Can be a lot of wildlife though and something more going on for the dwarves *ugh, dwarves again!*


Connecting Easter Rohan / the East Wall to Gondor areas and Dead Marshes through Emyn Muil and swamplands seems like a priority here, level-wise. More or less, but at least it would enable bypassing most of Rohan for those who are willing (to be able to quest 5 levels above your level isn't uncommon with the game's standard difficulty, that's why it could work). So a surgical strategic addition. But yes, I can imagine more regions emerging all around that as Mordor alternatives or full-on Rohan ones. Given time and opportunity but that's not something I would say is anywhere near crucial. Mordor needs to wait :D (just like Minas Morgul and Gundabad, although with Minas Morgul I guess they could just extend lvl ranges for the Vales and Langflood in the future)

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Originally Posted by Phantion

I do think South Ithilien warrants a "White Company settled, restored Bar Hurin" for when Faramir and Eowyn take-up their new fiefdom, and plus, all Ithilien deserves to have blue skies. Yet, if the tech's too difficult to work it, I'll understand.

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Yeah, and a physical entry to Hobbit allegiance hall. That one is easy - South Ithilien isn't physically on the new After the Battle "Mordor" layer, so they can just extend their North Ithilien parts of it further South and cover these areas. So they might extend it, no problem there, and it'll have blue skies. Although... restored Bar Hurin sounds a bit off if Frodo is still around, in Minas Tirith... Like, I would rather see the funeral of Theoden before Faramir and Eowyn get all comfy in their new home, so Frodo gotta move.

Wonderfully well thought out, TesalionLortus! I appreciate the time and thought you put into this question. :) I like the focus on thinking about the areas we most need rather than the areas we most want to see, and I think your choices are pretty spot-on.

I like both Moria and Rohan, but you're right; a lot of people don't. As Phantion suggests, an alternative to Mordor is probably also a good idea, since it's a gloomy and challenging space and the light requirements haven't aged well. Looking at the map, I think there may be an interesting way to rejigger the suggestions the two of you have made to allow for more continuity and better flow in the landscape and story. Adjusting things very slightly, I think it would make a lot of sense to have a level 50-60 area set in Western Enedwaith, scaling things down a bit and building all the way down to the coast. (This would put higher-level content very close to Mossward, but there may be ways to mitigate that risk, just as SSG is comfortable putting low-level Swanfleet next to higher-level Eregion.) Players could then, as you suggest, be fed very naturally into the existing Enedwaith and Dunland. The Westmarch is a very small space as it exists in game now, and I don't think it would support 10 levels of content, but I think it would work if this region was extended all the way to the coast, into Druwaith Iaur, and perhaps a bit into the White Mountains. Then, instead of taking players all the way over to the Emyn Muil and Nindalf, SSG could have them circle around the White Mountains and into Andrast, Pinnath Gelin, and Andrast--again, all scaled down a bit, since scale is fairly elastic in LOTRO. Players could then move very naturally into Gondor from there. And then, as an alternative to Mordor, players could visit Nindalf and the Emyn Muil, then travel up the east side of the Anduin to deal with the Easterlings.

This would give us a fully contiguous stretch of landscape all the way from the Gwathlo, south to Andrath, and east to the eastern side of the Anduin. It would feed players from one zone to the next zone to the next starting with Western Enedwaith at level 50 and ending on the east side of the Anduin at level 115. It would allow players to skip all the disliked/problematic zones and provide for a lot of player choice. It would allow us to visit places that are important in the lore and allow for a different angle on the war; we would essentially be fighting on the peripheries of the war for a lot of the time, while still getting to make it to Minas Tirith and the Black Gates for the climactic battles. SSG could build a story around Saruman's dealings, the Dunlendings, the White Mountain dwarves and orcs before we get to existing Gondor, and then they could tell a story that explores the Easterlings in a little more depth after the Black Gate. And in fact, the could then probably build an alternative to Minas Morgul and the War of Three Peaks that gives us some more Mirkwood and begins to build out the landscape toward Rhun.

Actually, one other alternative... players could skip the existing areas of Gondor and visit Nindalf and the Emyn Muil, and perhaps a little bit of the Brown Lands, as a 95-105 area, and then continue north along the Anduin for an Easterling-focused Mordor alternative. It would break geographic continuity a bit, but it would allow for a complete alternative levelling experience and allow people to skip Gondor if they don't like it. It would also continue to allow for an experience focusing on the periphery of the War of the Ring, which could be a very cool experience. And actually, another alternative: if we want a full-fledged alternative levelling experience, we could shift the 50-60 zone back to Minhiriath, then use Western Enedwaith as an alternative to Enedwaith and Dunland.

Totally agreed about the Mount Gram/Misty Mountain areas, to fill in these gaps. I love the idea of using this area to give more context to the Moors. I think it might be nice to see these zones connected on the north side of the Moors, encircling the Moors and building out this part of Eriador all the way up to the Misty Mountains. As for the Southfarthing, I think I would still like to see a version of the Southfarthing set at a lower level; I propose that it be, say, a 28-35 region to bridge the gap between Cardolan and Mount Gram. Then I want to see a level-cap version of the entire Shire--the original Shire, the Southfarthing, and the Yondershire--set during the Scouring.

Putting it all together, we would potentially have an alternative levelling path that would start in CardoSwan, take us to the Southfarthing, then to Mount Gram and the foothills of the Moors for an alternative take on the war against Angmar and provide more context for the Moors. Then we travel along the coastline, starting in Minhiriath, then travelling into Western Eregion, then visiting the Westmarch and Druwaith Iaur, then Andrath. Then we go over to Nindalf and Emyn Muil, travel up along the Anduin, and then start building up toward Rhun. And I think it would be easy to provide onramps and offramps from the original epic quest if they built the game this way, much the way there's apparently going to be an onramp at the end of Cardoswan. We experience the war against Angmar in the areas around the Ettenmoors; we learn about the Dunlendings and Rohirrim in Western Enediwath and Westmarch; we're carried to Gondor from the west; we deal with the aftermath of the Black Gate and learn about the Easterlings along the east banks of the Anduin; we're in Black Book territory as we move up toward Rhun. We explore different sides of the same stories, which would allow us to travel back and forth organically between the original path and the alternate path at our whim.

Great suggestions for level-cap areas in Eriador; I agree that all of these areas are relatively isolated and should be relatively safe to build in. Great ideas! :)

I think there may be potential for the devs to build up this alternate levelling route slowly, while still giving us endgame content. They could transition to a release schedule where they release two endgame areas and one lower-level areas a year, with a big endgame-focused expansion in the fall and two small-to-medium-sized areas in the early spring and summer, one focused on endgame and one focused on the lower-level route. Given the huge amount of landscape and content they've developed this year, I think that should be very, very feasible. It would just take a little bit of a shift in planning and mindset.

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Originally Posted by seekingerin

Adjusting things very slightly, I think it would make a lot of sense to have a level 50-60 area set in Western Enedwaith, scaling things down a bit and building all the way down to the coast.

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Well, whether the Moria alternative would be set in Enedwaith or - Miniriath and parts of Enedwaith - is really an open question, true. It depends on the development idea and how it turns out, plus I'm not exactly sure whether the coastline and rivers that we see on the LOTRO's terrain map are final, these can change a bit probably, they're just a base outline. So who knows. But I think we can all agree here Moria alternative is a priority here and this area next to Enedwaith and Dunland is a win-win candidate.

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Originally Posted by seekingerin

Then, instead of taking players all the way over to the Emyn Muil and Nindalf, SSG could have them circle around the White Mountains and into Andrast, Pinnath Gelin, and Andrast--again, all scaled down a bit, since scale is fairly elastic in LOTRO. Players could then move very naturally into Gondor from there. And then, as an alternative to Mordor, players could visit Nindalf and the Emyn Muil, then travel up the east side of the Anduin to deal with the Easterlings.

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The problem with this is that focusing entire Far Western side of Gondor on lower lvl alternative route content sounds like a massive dedication.

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Originally Posted by seekingerin

They could transition to a release schedule where they release two endgame areas and one lower-level areas a year, with a big endgame-focused expansion in the fall and two small-to-medium-sized areas in the early spring and summer, one focused on endgame and one focused on the lower-level route. Given the huge amount of landscape and content they've developed this year, I think that should be very, very feasible. It would just take a little bit of a shift in planning and mindset.

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And this sounds like they would be slowing down even more with relevant new content being released :) I mean, note that not so long ago the devs weren't focused on any lower level areas at all and things were moving at a slowpoke pace with Frodo still in Minas Tirith and all these other plot threads still lingering. If they won't speed it up a bit / prioritize how they go about these stories and their progression... I would rather NOT see them slowing everything down even more by dedicating themselves fully to 1 lower lvl landmass a year. And that's just me with story concerns, but there are also all these cap players expecting "relevant" cap content and innis... Hmm, so I guess they shouldn't make this an official "certain required thing" on the schedule but more like once in a while, depending on circumstances, so perhaps when it's suitable because it's their occasion to take a break from whatever they've worked on previously (but don't go overboard with just low lvl content and nothing else like last year). Either way, whether that's 1 lower level landmass per year or 1 landmass per 1,5-2 years or something less defined and more on a whim, so irregular... they definitely need to make the cap progression and resolution of old storylines more rewarding rather than... take us on a stroll into a brand new thing that then will be put into the drawer for another 4 years and there are things already in the drawer that's been there for like 10 years...

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Originally Posted by seekingerin

And I think it would be easy to provide onramps and offramps from the original epic quest if they built the game this way, much the way there's apparently going to be an onramp at the end of Cardoswan. We experience the war against Angmar in the areas around the Ettenmoors; we learn about the Dunlendings and Rohirrim in Western Enediwath and Westmarch; we're carried to Gondor from the west; we deal with the aftermath of the Black Gate and learn about the Easterlings along the east banks of the Anduin; we're in Black Book territory as we move up toward Rhun. We explore different sides of the same stories, which would allow us to travel back and forth organically between the original path and the alternate path at our whim.

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I would rather see these lower level regions in off-the-charts locations (that's been kinda less relevant in the lore and War of the Ring) as self-contained stories, no epic books attached, just regular quests (which can still tell compelling or relevant stories about peripheries of the world or the war). So, no epic leading you there, but after you're done with it, a regular quest vector of some kind that takes you into the exact spot where you can pick up the Epic chapter relevant for Enedwaith/Dunland content. This treatment would suffice.

I was skeptical at first but they were thoughtful with CardoSwan, it seems. CardoSwan works because the alternate epics will be put in place of the original chapters that... weren't very relevant. The only thing you would be missing out on is the introduction of Ivar and Skorgrim as part of epic plot. Also, the player's first meeting with Radagast and some of the rangers, but I guess later meetings with them aren't really as suggestive of any possible meetings and relationship PC had with them before? Hmm, also Gandalf at the Pony! So I wonder how they tackled that one, Gandalf sounds like pretty important character in our PC adventures, so if there is no Gandalf in CardoSwan and then it's suddenly like "Oh, X, we finally meet again!" well, then that's not very thoughtful and pretty bad, but I guess that's something they taken care of. But overall, what CardoSwan story will skip: Amdir is not relevant, Council of the North was pretty self-contained and not that relevant, Red Maid also self-contained and not relevant - so their choice here is good, the heavy quintessential stuff with Angmar, Golodir and Amarthiel starts only after Rivendell. Granted, you meet Strider before Rivendell, but his dialogue as Aragorn at Rivendell doesn't really refer too much to that last meeting, I believe.

But branching off and "alternate" epic books for Moria, Rohan or Gondor wouldn't make much sense, I think. Besides, whatever story it could contain, may be told in normal quests. No need to make it frustrating and confusing. The role of the epics should be to lead players through the *right* storyline track where they experience all the relevant content that feeds heavily into the future stories. And aside from this one little trick they did with CardoSwan (which helps to streamline things a bit, without the confusion of the different starting zones with its different Epic intros) there is just no way in the world they can make the epic story feel cohesive by having 5 or more different paths to take, sounds like something MoL would have to pull his hair out over and it wouldn't even work in the end, would just leave peeps confused and bring the game's storyline closer to the utter mess that is WoW :P. Easier to have the optional/alternative stuff happen in regular quest content and self-contained storyline approach (that doesn't create loose ends) would have been ideal for such lower level zones! The game would really not benefit from... Yondershire's Bingo Boffins on steroids all over the place. I may know it was written for me and I enjoyed it, but still... I'm baffled at the concept of lower lvl player experiencing that kind of utter confusion at their entry level at lvl 20ish. I would rather not receive it if that was going to be the result and enjoy a similar storyline with completely different hobbit family just fine

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

The problem with this is that focusing entire Far Western side of Gondor on lower lvl alternative route content sounds like a massive dedication.

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The problem is, in part, your map.


https://i.gyazo.com/c1ab099d4be6546c...e4dcfdf943.png

First off, it was never an issue in the Cape of Belfalas or Lebennin - or West Gondor for that matter. Why? Mountains. Huge, over-scaled mountains. But mountains nonetheless.

A huge bulk of West Gondor is literally just impassable mountains - Tarlang especially - and the open ocean.

A huge bulk of Central Gondor - pretty much the whole northern half of Lebennin - is impassable mountains.

So, when we look at LOTRO's actual map, not the horribly distorted one terrainmap uses ---> we'll notice that, in fact, the whole Cape of Andrast is lined by these mountains, they dip down into Anfalas, and there's another whole clump of mountains between Andrast and Westmarch.

If we look at it through that lens - the same lens as Gorgoroth, Ered Mithrin, and to an extent, Vales and Wells and how they brought the Misties literally out to the Anduin in places:

It becomes a do-able lower-level zone. Sure, you'll have much narrower spaces like in Vales and Wells; Andrast, honestly, should feel like traveling around the Cape of Belfalas. It won't have huge, vast open spaces. It'll have narrow roads and passes, some open spaces more due south of Westmarch, some open spaces that would mirror Lower Lebennin somewhat in Anfalas / Green Hills, but you're not going to have a terrible ton to develop. You'll have plenty of mountains though :)

Before CardoSwan, I would've said it would have taken 2 updates. Now I just see it taking 1 somewhat larger update - - - which, again, the bulk of which is impassable mountains and open ocean. I don't see this as "massive" an undertaking as you do; I trust Scenario's new tech he's been all excited about since Car Bronach, the results of which we've seen in Yondershire and will, in about a month, explore in Cardoswan.

I still think players should have a choice: foray into Gorgoroth or, alternatively, deal with the immediate impact of the War of the Ring in the western reaches of Gondor. This should happen before Frodo leaves Minas Tirith. Also, I think ---> RE- Faramir and Eowyn, we're not really told that they settled in Emyn Arnen - after - Theoden's funeral. Theoden has an incorrupt body, as I understand it, like many mythic kings of legend. So, he's able to rest regally for quite a few months before being interred in his barrow in Edoras.

In the meantime, there's enough time passing for all these trees to get planted in Minas Tirith and for Dwarves to get down from Erebor to wrought new mithril gates for the White City, again as I understand it currently, and if I'm wrong there, correct me. I don't see a problem with a small "time-compression" to get an "After Battle Bar Hurin" as the main northern player hub for a Harondor region . . . including a vault, AH, etc., as a logical place to foray southward from. I also don't see a problem with Faramir and Eowyn, after overseeing their new home, traveling to Edoras for Theoden's funeral.

They could change the South Ithilien portal in "March of the Ring" to a clicky-horse and just use After Battle South Ithilien from there.

Cheers! :D

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Originally Posted by Phantion

First off, it was never an issue in the Cape of Belfalas or Lebennin - or West Gondor for that matter. Why? Mountains. Huge, over-scaled mountains. But mountains nonetheless.

If we look at it through that lens - the same lens as Gorgoroth, Ered Mithrin, and to an extent, Vales and Wells and how they brought the Misties literally out to the Anduin in places:

It becomes a do-able lower-level zone. Sure, you'll have much narrower spaces like in Vales and Wells; Andrast, honestly, should feel like traveling around the Cape of Belfalas. It won't have huge, vast open spaces. It'll have narrow roads and passes, some open spaces more due south of Westmarch, some open spaces that would mirror Lower Lebennin somewhat in Anfalas / Green Hills, but you're not going to have a terrible ton to develop. You'll have plenty of mountains though :)

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I don't mind but something tells me Scenario would love to upgrade the over-scaled mountains and make it feel like it's more natural... or at very least he would like to be a bit more ambitious with Far Western parts. :D Also, don't forget the content part (cities, quests and all that), it's not just the matter of how quickly Scenario and others can build landscape. CardoSwan covers 1-32 but these are 1) lower level quests so it would probably need more quests and content for something like 80-100 than CardoSwan has 2) it's more complex to build with all the passes, probably, and takes a bit more nuance than open spaces like CardoSwan. So that's why I'm skeptical it's an easy one-time project and again, we don't want it to feel like an afterthought because...

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Originally Posted by Phantion

A huge bulk of West Gondor it literally just impassable mountains - Tarlang especially - and open ocean.

A huge bulk of Central Gondor - pretty much the whole northern half of Lebennin - is impassable mountains.

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Whole Gondor is a fishbowl, as it stands currently. It's OK, it is what it is, but... yeah. I love these inaccessible valleys from the terrain map or the middle of Belfalas which hints at some sort of civilization and cities being there, as seen in the distance. This is how it should have been solved, a bit less of giant impassible mountains everywhere. So Far West Gondor can be a chance to correct that and create an illusion of alive kingdom that isn't as constrained.

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Originally Posted by Phantion

So, when we look on LOTRO's actual map, not the horribly distorted one terrainmap uses --->

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It's not distorted though, but perfectly accurate. And sure, I know where traversable parts are :) I like the world being filled in and hinting at more being out there, even though it's not accessible terrain. The illusion of a kingdom in Rohan worked because there were just SOOO many settlements, big and small, so even with almost entire landmass covered and not many villages in-between there was enough to make me feel like this is it, that's a kingdom with a lot of stuff in it. With Gondor we have... well, it has this sterile settlements in closely encircled valleys and the ones near sea, and that's it. Feels like it's very small. I doubt they will ever come back to that to torn down some impassable and hint at other villages and inaccessible bits of civilization out there, but at least with Far West part that's a good opportunity to do that. Gondor, when combined, should feel as large and alive as Rohan. Even if not everything is accessible there should be a strong illusion of the size.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

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Originally Posted by Phantion

So, when we look at LOTRO's actual map, not the horribly distorted one terrainmap uses --->

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It's not distorted though, but perfectly accurate. And sure, I know where traversable parts are :) I like the world being filled in and hinting at more being out there, even though it's not accessible terrain. The illusion of a kingdom in Rohan worked because there were just SOOO many settlements, big and small, so even with almost entire landmass covered and not many villages in-between there was enough to make me feel like this is it, that's a kingdom with a lot of stuff in it. With Gondor we have... well, it has this sterile settlements in closely encircled valleys and the ones near sea, and that's it. Feels like it's very small. I doubt they will ever come back to that to torn down some impassable and hint at other villages and inaccessible bits of civilization out there, but at least with Far West part that's a good opportunity to do that. Gondor, when combined, should feel as large and alive as Rohan. Even if not everything is accessible there should be a strong illusion of the size.

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It is interesting to see the speculation and justifications put forth for where players think the game world should/could expand. Some very well thought out ideas in this thread.

As to the map, part of the issue is that the map TesalionLortus used is not from TerrainMap, rather the Google map which is based on two things, TerrainMap and the old Lorebook map. TesalionLortus is correct that TerrainMap is 100% accurate to the game world since it is the compass map images that are the actual game world, thus the filled in parts are 100% accurate and not distorted. The background/border though is another matter. That is from the old Turbine Lorebook map which, like the game map world overview that Phantion is using, is an artist's interpretation of what the game world could look like beyond the already defined terrain (based on other existing maps of Middle-earth). That said, the current in-game world overview map is probably a better representation of the current expectations since it is about twelve years newer and can better account for the existing terrain - the lorebook map didn't have Gondor or Mordor or most of Rhovanion so it is showing its age. However, the world overview is just as prone to error as any of the other parchment maps where there is no actual terrain to base it on, so that overview is also likely to be altered as the world builders create the actual terrain.

FWIW, I've actually considered updating the Google map borders to the new world overview but that would lose the parchment look of the Lorebook map and would be a tremendous amount of work so I haven't... yet.

Yeah, thanks for clarification Garan! That's what I thought

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Originally Posted by Garan

FWIW, I've actually considered updating the Google map borders to the new world overview but that would lose the parchment look of the Lorebook map and would be a tremendous amount of work so I haven't... yet.

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I would say don't ( if what you're talking about is the "Middle-earth" map that's accessible in-game). I've had it in Photoshop just recently put underneath the terrain and the two don't match at all (Gondor mountains don't even match with the game-world, for example, Iron Hills are too far), proportions are all over the place so there is little guarantee there is any merit to the positions of the mountain passes and coastlines. Personally, I really like the gentle parchment layout that's being used currently

PS: The non-existing terrain will always be subject to error but for existing map layout I would love it if the LOTRO artist created a new global map by putting terrain map for reference in PS (or whatever other tool they're working with) and reflected the in-game world exactly (so gotta put the Iron Hills closer!), rather than try to be faithful to canon Middle-earth maps. Also, should include all passes that exist (exits between mountains) so it better reflects the in-game world in functional ways

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Originally Posted by Garan

It is interesting to see the speculation and justifications put forth for where players think the game world should/could expand. Some very well thought out ideas in this thread.

As to the map, part of the issue is that the map TesalionLortus used is not from TerrainMap, rather the Google map which is based on two things, TerrainMap and the old Lorebook map. TesalionLortus is correct that TerrainMap is 100% accurate to the game world since it is the compass map images that are the actual game world, thus the filled in parts are 100% accurate and not distorted. The background/border though is another matter. That is from the old Turbine Lorebook map which, like the game map world overview that Phantion is using, is an artist's interpretation of what the game world could look like beyond the already defined terrain (based on other existing maps of Middle-earth). That said, the current in-game world overview map is probably a better representation of the current expectations since it is about twelve years newer and can better account for the existing terrain - the lorebook map didn't have Gondor or Mordor or most of Rhovanion so it is showing its age. However, the world overview is just as prone to error as any of the other parchment maps where there is no actual terrain to base it on, so that overview is also likely to be altered as the world builders create the actual terrain.

FWIW, I've actually considered updating the Google map borders to the new world overview but that would lose the parchment look of the Lorebook map and would be a tremendous amount of work so I haven't... yet.

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Yes, thank you! :D

I didn't mean to imply the "terrainmap" part of it's inaccurate (*it absolutely - is- accurate). I should've specified the old Lorebook map........................ that's what I was trying to refer to. For example, the Misty Mountains are waaaay too wide on the Lorebook map, Gondor's much larger vertically than it is on the current world-map and the Tolkien map, and . . . . things of that nature. This is why "Mirkwood" on the Lorebook map has fringes appearing above the Grey Mountains on the Terrainmap, for example.

Generally, I prefer the proportions of the "current world map" even though there are some differences. I think that where the Lorebook map is too distorted vertically, the current world-map is too distorted horizontally. I appreciate all you do Garan with terrainmap; I don't envy the upcoming work you'll be doing RE- "Cardoswan" - but I thank you in advance so much for it :D

Cheers! :D

Thanks for the insight, Garan. :) I second TesalionLortus's suggestion to stick with the parchment map; I quite like it, and I agree that it probably matches the actual in-game terrain better. It's also a stronger contrast than the in-game map would be, which is helpful for visual clarity; it would be a lot harder to distinguish between the in-game map and the terrain than it is the parchment map and the terrain.

It seems like you've updated the parchment background over the years as the game world has expanded, correct? The rivers and mountains and coastline on the parchment version of lotromap.net's map exactly match the in-game terrain, but I assume that's because you adjust them when a new region comes out. For instance, comparing the current map to the 2013 version of the map that's available on the site, it looks like you've expanded the White Mountains to match their size in-game and you altered the path of the Celduin when the Dale-Lands were added.

The reason I ask is because it tells us whether the terrain is following a predetermined template that was set sometime before 2013--ie, the rivers HAVE to follow this exact route, and the mountains HAVE to extend this far, and the coastline HAS to be here--or they're making up the location of the mountains and rivers and coasts as they go. I suspect it's the latter: that they're using Tolkien's map and the Fonstad atlas as a general guide, but there's still a fair amount of flexibility in how large everything is. The path of the Gwathlo and Brandywine in CardoSwan have to fit with the existing in-game world, but they don't have to fit with what some developer decided in 2005 was going to be their path. The coastlines have to approximate Tolkien's map, but they don't have to go with that hypothetical 2005 plan.

Assuming that's the case, I don't think we can assume too much about the size of upcoming areas. The parchment map TesalionLortus used is an approximation of where the coastlines and rivers will be and how much space the mountains will take up, but they aren't exact. So Anfalas and Pinnath Gelin could be an enormous swath of terrain larger than all of Rohan, and the White Mountains could be just a narrow strip, and Andrast could be as far from Dol Amroth as the Old Forest is from the High Pass, all of which is what the current parchment map shows; or Andrast could be considerably farther east, the White Mountains could be as large in the west as they are in the east, and Anfalas and Pinnath Gelin could be comparable in size to Western and Central Gondor. Far Gondor, as I saw some dev refer to it years ago, could be the giant chunk of endgame landscape it sounds like they'll be digging into in 2023, or it could be a couple of small additions they'll be releasing years from now as part of an alternate levelling route they gradually build up over time. Until things are actually developed in-game, SSG has a great deal of flexibility when it comes to how they scale things. The location of the coasts is particularly in doubt; we don't know how far Andrast is from Dol Amroth and we don't know how far Eryn Vorn is from CardoSwan. So we can only guess at the size of the coastal lands.

Personally, I'm hoping that Anfalas and Pinnath Gelin are enormous, because I absolutely agree with TesalionLortus. The thing I disliked most about Gondor was how close they placed the Anduin to the White Mountains. It made Gondor feel tiny, just a narrow strip of land instead of the sprawling, powerful kingdom it should have been. Far Gondor allows SSG to give Gondor its proper scale and majesty. But I think we'll have to wait and see.

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Originally Posted by seekingerin

Thanks for the insight, Garan. :) I second TesalionLortus's suggestion to stick with the parchment map; I quite like it, and I agree that it probably matches the actual in-game terrain better. It's also a stronger contrast than the in-game map would be, which is helpful for visual clarity; it would be a lot harder to distinguish between the in-game map and the terrain than it is the parchment map and the terrain.

It seems like you've updated the parchment background over the years as the game world has expanded, correct? The rivers and mountains and coastline on the parchment version of lotromap.net's map exactly match the in-game terrain, but I assume that's because you adjust them when a new region comes out. For instance, comparing the current map to the 2013 version of the map that's available on the site, it looks like you've expanded the White Mountains to match their size in-game and you altered the path of the Celduin when the Dale-Lands were added.

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Thank you for the comments. I agree that I much prefer the parchment map. As you have noticed, there are sections, particularly around the rivers that have had to be adjusted to line up with what the developers actually created in-game. I've tried to preserve the style of the Lorebook map borders and to extend them in the same or similar style where possible.

I've just watched the "Casual Stroll" stream through Cardolan and I'm really impressed by its sheer size. Sure, I had seen the map and I knew how big the gap it filled would be, but actually seeing it is something else. It's huge and it gives an astounding feeling of openworldness. It certainly doesn't seem like the most eventful of places, so I can see some people finding it a little empty or monotonous, but hey, that's exactly how that place is supposed to be. The sight of the ruins in the distance, especially Caranost, is impressive, and the small towns and farms are nice and don't seem too lore-breaking: they had to be there, but it still totally feels like a mostly deserted place. Tharbad looks great and the rivers flowing southwards and getting closer and closer to the sea is always a beautiful sight. I also enjoyed the "backyard" parts of the Old Forest and the Barrow-downs, and of course the walls (both natural or man-made) south of Andrath and Harloeg being gone for good.

What surprised me the most was Sarn Ford. I expected the road to the Southfarthing to be completely blocked off, not to get a new portal completely skipping over it and taking you directly to Michel Delving. That explains why the map had the "To the Shire" label instead of "To the Southfarthing" (I guess the Shire map will also be changed with a "To Cardolan" label, thus deleting any mention of the Southfarthing from the game's map, which lowkey makes me a little sad lol). But don't get me wrong: I do like being able to "fast" travel to the Shire from there.

All in all an awesome place to get your horse and ride around.

I also tried to get some clues from Scenario's words about future updates and zones as I often do - to no avail. :D He did acknowledge at some point how Bree-land is now completely surrounded by other regions except for a small section at its north-east (which would be the gap north of Lone-lands: the Weather-marches/Rhudaur region as we usually call it here), but that's it.