20 Questions – Big Battles

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Originally Posted by michael_black22

yo guys:
Here are my ideas about what the Big Battle must have:
1. Locks
2. Different Loot Table between solo/3/6/12 man
As far as I understood you can get pretty much everything in solo but will take longer to get those special marks if do not group or join a raid.
Since we can expect a new small update with something new in around 03.2014 or so, means one thing...If Turbine puts no locks on this Big Battle then players will spam it like they do now with all the 6/12 man getting tired of this fast.
If one thing Turbine can learn form this time we have now, since they can not bring something new every 3-4 months...locks help a fresh content not to get burned fast.
Is very fair from Turbine to give us all a chance to test it on Bullroarer before buying....ty for that.
Even if the books are asking for a different instance, like the Big Battle, still one thing I will not want to see is that everything can be gotten in a solo mode.
Big battle is a nice project and saw many players saying that this is the point when they will want to go into grouping more. Let´s only hope the reward system will guide players more to group and go into kins.
Being in a kin makes the community stronger and together we can stand through the times like we have now. (even if not many of my kinnies are coming atm onlineI´m still coming online and on teamspeak)
In the past, having locks on the raids made me level 2 character per year and now I end up with 7 maxed out toons(all-lm and burg) but for the players with 1 or 2 alts , if they see no locks coming on Big Battle then they will not bother making a new one now , till HD.
Considering the fact that we get only one instance...please try to take this also into consideration.
If there will be no locks then HD´s Big battle will have the almost the same meaning like the u11 one... 1 toon I´ll bring to 95 or max 2 ...and the rest of them will stay at 85 being scaled anyway when going in.
No locks makes your hard work (6 months work or so) being burned in max 2-3 months...your call if u want it that way.

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Interesting points about locks - are you meaning something like a 24 hour or 3 day cool-down before a character is allowed to play the instance/Big Battle again?

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Originally Posted by Angadan

Specifically, the term 'lore-breaking.'

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There's also logic-breaking. Ie, the Rohirrim were extremely distrustful of elves. So it is illogical to assume there were a few others scattered around in the ranks of the soldiers. If another elf had shown up it would have been such an unusual thing that it would have been written about. This isn't necessarily a break in the lore but it doesn't make sense.

On the other hand, this is a game and some things sort of have to be allowed. Since day one of the game we've been allowed to play hobbits and dwarves and elves. Now 6 years later if we're told that sorry we can't take those characters into Rohan there would be a huge uproar! This is not the same thing as something new that is lore breaking that is not needed for game play (like rune keepers), but a continuation of the lore break that occured six years ago.

People who do not want to accept this have some alternatives that are not that difficult to achieve. First, never group up with elves or hobbits or dwarves while in Rohan, and don't bring any of your own characters there if they're not human. Second, use suspension of disbelief to ignore other players who don't meet personal ideas how how areas should look. Third, just avoid going to Rohan since it's impossible to make it match everyone's internal visions of how it should look. Foruth, if some people who are not you are making an all hobbit group for big battles, ignore it since that isn't you.

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Originally Posted by Minquinn

Will tanks and healers have a large role in how these big battles play out or will 12 hunters be sufficient?

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My guess is that yes, 12 hunters will be sufficient for an adequate score. But it won't be optimal. As described this won't be a simple instance with a simple win or fail outcome. There are many degrees of winning. If you think running a mile in one hour is as good as you want to do then that's up to you.

Compare to skirmishes. You can run the 12 person skirmish raids without a tank. It's not as pretty but you can complete it. But you do a lot better with some tanks. With big battles, doing a lot better may mean getting better rewards.

I'm glad to see it's not session play as speculations were earlier, but actually with your own char.

However, I'm still wondering though if the game can handle it? Lag-wise I mean. If I look tonight, we tried erebor t2c, then there's so much lag and you have only 12 ppl, 2 trolls and about 5 adds on a limited amount of space. I'm very curious if HD actually contains ideas/plans/things :P to make the whole server traffic less so there's less lag. A bit is Always there but thats normal.... but atm lotro has a lot.. Just wondering :)

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Originally Posted by Vincent_Price

Solien, you know what the good news is?

That the groundwork for the Big Battles has already been laid (and is closing to completion and is very much balanced so it's would be quite enjoyable - i want to believe).
So as the tools are ready, the devs will have at least 1-2 less steps to create for the Pellenor Fields/Black Gate or other huge battles that took place.

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I was just thinking this today. It won't all go smoothly, but they'll learn from it. There is that much more chance of a really exciting and dynamic Pelennor Fields.

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So instance-wise, i doubt there's anything more to create from scratch. 3mans/6mans have been covered, skirmishes have been covered, 12 man raids have been covered, and now Big Battles are being completed.
Everything else from now on will be an improvement.

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That may be a little simplistic in its optimism, but I agree in general that if this tool allows them to tackle the epic confrontations of the LOTR stories, it's a big tool to be added.

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The fact that Turbine also recently installed devices to monitor lag (something needed especially for War-Steed rubberbunding), makes me ultra happy for the future of LOTRO.

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I wish I could join you in your 'ultra-ness'. I'm much more cautiously optimistic now, though.

The plan, so far, put out for Big Battles, should expand the group options for many players. It will allow experienced players to fill in by getting a character to 10, or using that level 65 they did not advance. Will performance suffer without experience? Absolutely. However, people who are past level 50 have a large number of their skills and they'll likely get some group experience sooner than they would have otherwise. If a group is SERIOUS about getting the best medals, they simply won't accept inexperienced players scaling up...they'll do it like they did the past 7 years. This plan breaks down some barriers for friends who are at different levels. It breaks down some barriers for people who have played a long time but do not 'level like a maniac'. It has the potential to offer a LOT.

If the class revamp comes out okay, it too has the potential to bring some balance and harmony to the classes as a whole and to some neglected ones in particular.

And yes..the lag MUST go. The communication must get better with the paying customers. Some other parts of the game must get a breath of fresh air too (as has been promised or at least 'hinted' at in previous dev postings).

There are pitfalls, to be sure. But ultimately, I think this new BIG BATTLES dynamic was an important one for Turbine to add and it could breathe some new life into the game as we move into the epic battle phase of the Lord of the Rings story.

Sure would be cool if the Big Battles plan goes well, the lag gets fixed, and we got a 24man raid for the Pelennor Fields. The PUG community has grown dramatically in the past year or two and while it has some cons, the pros of more people playing with more people and achieving something is good for the community.

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Originally Posted by Lohi

There's also logic-breaking. Ie, the Rohirrim were extremely distrustful of elves.

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I would describe Eomer's opinion of elves in general being more of wonder than distrust. He clearly saw them beings of great ability: "'Have you sprung out of the grass? How did you escape our sight? Are you elvish folk?'" (TT p. 435). He most certainly WAS distrustful of Galadriel, or rather of the rumours and myths he'd heard of her: "Then there is a Lady in the Golden Wood, as old tales tell!' he said. 'Few escape her nets, they say. These are strange days! But if you have her favour, then you also are net-weavers and sorcerers, maybe.'" Notice he didn't say, "You are elves therefore you are maybe sorcerers...but rather, you have her favour, therefore you may be...." Later he calms down a bit, and says words that would not easily be said to people for whom one has innate distrust: "Will you not come? There are spare horses as you see...Yes, and we could find a use for Gimli's axe and the bow of Legolas, if they will pardon my rash words concerning the Lady of the Wood. I spoke only as do all men in my land, and I would gladly learn better." In short, the Rohirrim distrusted their northern neighbor more so than elves in general, and quickly came to value having met this particular elf (and dwarf and man).

Still, you raise a good point, one that is supported to an extent in the books. At this particular time in Rohan, with the King demanding his nation become insular (at Saruman's manipulation, of course), it WAS strange to find an elf and dwarf walking together in the lands of Eorl: "'It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live..." (TT p. 440). One gets the impression that the oddness lies as much in an elf and dwarf getting along as it does in finding them in Rohan, but still, your point has some support here.

Nevertheless, every rule has its exceptions. There are no Americans in North Korea today, except for the ones that are. There are no elves or dwarves in a closed-off Rohan at this point of the tales...except for the ones that are. Think of it this way: Rohan is such a VAST land, with such wide bounds, and it commands one of the natural migration paths between the northwest of Middle-earth and Gondor, etc. ... how would it be possible that there were NOT at least some elves and dwarves in the country (whether the boundary guard forces were aware of them or not)?

Thanks for your post, I enjoyed reading it!

I appreciate the inputs of those commenting on the lore, and I understand the varied perspectives. Honestly, I really am SO very happy that this won't be based on session play, so that's a win as far as I'm concerned. The fact that the Rohirrim did not speak kindly of the elves of the Golden Wood makes me a little uncertain about how my elf would fit into this, and I really just don't think I'll send my hobbit this way (sure, I can just play it and have a good time, but I do like to be able to wrap the stories around my characters as they play--it helps me with my fanfiction and rp that are important parts of my LOTRO hobby), so I'd love to hear more about how the story is going to work. I'd be really happy to see some thoughtful crafting of tales and dialogue--I know it isn't easy to merge the game and the story here, and hence my curiosity.

I don't think it should be too lore-breaking for our characters to slip into the Battle of the Hornburg. It wasn't impossible for Merry to disguise himself as a bag and ride along with the Rohirrim toward Mundburg. Elves and dwarves and hobbits could easily pretend to be among those warriors in Helm's Deep that seemed to have seen too many or too few winters. It's dark and raining and they're wearing armour.

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Originally Posted by michael_black22

yo guys:
here are my ideeas about what the Big Battle must have:
1. Locks
2. Different Loot Table bettwen solo/3/6/12 man
As far as i understood you can get pretty much everything in solo but will take longer to get those speacial marks if do not group or join raid.

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Sorry friend, your ship has sailed along with mine and we missed the boat.

Oh, and Sapience, I read the siggy thread. I got the humor, but my old siggy is gone and I don't see a point in making another. Blessed be, my friend.

Thanks for the answer Staveisle, and yes i know but i might get over-optimistic, but that's part of my character :D


Having locks on raids is a valid point. It helps slow down the situation where the "Fight becomes a daily routine" or worse "an hourly routine". Can totally understand that.

But the thing to that is it won't help 95 group with 10-92 levels. Everybody who is 95 (or most let's not generalise), would like to waste their 1 chance of the week to fully complete the instance with all the rewards. Since the outcome is determined (Victory for the Rohirrim and the fellowship), it will certainly lock after he instance is completed (1 hour).
So nobody from the 95 floor would like to pick a level 35----> Battle will be complete and the 95 (who only joined to complete all the tasks, couldn't find an all-95level fellowship, so settled with that 50level Lore Master), will be locked for 1 week just because of the circumstance.

So my suggestion is, if we are to have locks, we'll have only for the all-level-95 Battle, and not if any 10-94 levels have joined. I know it sounds weird and it kind of defeats the whole purpose of having a lock, but i can't think of anything better.

By the way i don't think people will "Farm" HD. If i understood right this raid lasts 50-60 minutes in it's 12man form. Nobody will run a 50minute instance that has such a big chance/danger of not getting all the loot. Most PUGs are not that organised and 98% won't even try T2C.
So my opinion is : no HD farm by default. :)

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Originally Posted by Angadan

Nevertheless, every rule has its exceptions. There are no Americans in North Korea today, except for the ones that are. There are no elves or dwarves in a closed-off Rohan at this point of the tales...except for the ones that are. Think of it this way: Rohan is such a VAST land, with such wide bounds, and it commands one of the natural migration paths between the northwest of Middle-earth and Gondor, etc. ... how would it be possible that there were NOT at least some elves and dwarves in the country (whether the boundary guard forces were aware of them or not)?

Thanks for your post, I enjoyed reading it!

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thank you for supplying me with the reasoning to back up my instinct. i plan on keeping my ears covered. and my lute strings dry.

T2 CM...lol
I´ll tell u what that is: my warden (with antistun) getting all the cookies/adds together...(ofc hopping we dont get gimped^^)..../joking i dont think will be that easy../hope-ing

I only brought my suggestions ...the rest is a : "Wait and see" situation... one thing is sure ...i´ll first wanna test: the BB and what "remaind" form my toon´s skills ...then i´ll see if is worth my money.

Let me start off by saying that I'm really expecting something off Helm's Deep since I was underwhelmed by the RoR expansion. I loved the Isengard story, instances, landscape and feel a lot but the RoR instances let me down quite badly. There was no connection towards the Lonely Mountain instances from the Rohan story and landscape whatsoever. I was immensly appalled by that and the gut-wrenching grind in Hytboldt and Wildermore.
Now, since that let me down for about a year or so and I was on the brink of quitting a game that gave me so much joy in the past, I'm looking forward towards the Helm's Deep expansion for what made this game what it is: great storytelling and likeable content. Please don't throw away that opportunity and introduce something disconnected again. The sparkling mannequins and Laila's Market were bad enough in my book. And what about the spinning Hobbit-lottery? At least make it a little animation where a little hobbit comes running carrying the present, gives a kiss on the cheek and leaves the gift. What you have done there looks like the slot machine found in Las Vegas... If you want to introduce something weird: put lolcats everywhere. They don't have to do anything in the game as well as sparkling stuff (let alone vampires) and mithril marketsplaces. If you want to improve profit: improve quality not increase places to get money from. Please.
Just my two cents...

First of all, big thank you for the 20 questions and so many detailed answers in the thread.
I'd love some further explanations on how the system works. I'm already delighted at the news that the rewards are finally progression-based, not RNG-only.

However, I feel several issues we have seen in the past seem to be neglected.

1. Locks / burn-out
Having no locks means that a large part of the community will burn trough the content in no time (several days).
This has been proven by Durchest and BfE farm in the past. (BfE was farmed 400+ times in the first few days by some people.)

On the other hand, hard locks would exclude people from helping low-lvl alts or doing practice runs, testing new strategies.

I'd suggest the following system:
Let the people do the content as much as they want.
However attaining platinum rewards would lock you out from getting the [quest for those] platinum rewards for some time until the lock expires.

Such a system would allow to help low-lvls or doing practice runs, and at the same time there would be some reason to come back after a few days.

QUESTION: Are you considering a system that would prevent rapid burn-out by replaying the content and getting rewards more than once per day(/ half-week / week / ...)?


1A. Complete once, then run the quickest one

The community will take advantage of the path of least resistance in terms of reward/difficulty ratio.
This has happened all the time in the past, examples include Grand Stair, ToO Lightning, BfE.

This will likely end up in the complete-once-for-deed-then-run-the-quickest-one scenario.
The average time of completing a current t1 raid is like this:
FoS: >20 minutes
FotLM: 10 minutes
BfE: <5 minutes

It is no wonder that any of the t1 raids except BfE was hardly run.

QUESTION: Are you considering a system that would encourage to run not only the quickest BB raid/instance repeatedly? By repeatedly I mean on a regular basis, not only once or twice for deed.

2. Gaming the system - Exploting the grading system (medals)
Skirmishes were frequently run with letting waves of mobs slaughter the NPCs to speed up the skirmish.
A similar issue that could arise here is that people get a platinum medal in ONE selected objective, ignoring the other objectives.
By splitting the effort in several runs, the difficulty would be trivialized, but the rewards will be best from a reward/difficulty ratio.

Example:
Assume we have 3 objectives:
I. protect the Rohirrim
II. kill 100 orcs
III. protect the defence structures

One can easily imagine a situation where the group does 3 subsequent runs, all focusing on only ONE objective, earning platinum score for one objective in one run.

QUESTION: Is such exploiting/circumventing of the grading system possible? If yes, are you considering ways to prevent it?

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Originally Posted by FragLimiT

And what about the spinning Hobbit-lottery? At least make it a little animation where a little hobbit comes running carrying the present, gives a kiss on the cheek and leaves the gift. What you have done there looks like the slot machine found in Las Vegas...

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Sorry for the off-topic, but that's the best implementation of Hobbit-Presents i've ever read.
I don't have a big problem with how the Hobbit-Presents work, but that's a much-much better idea! It will also make you smile if you're having a bad day!

Pleeeeaseeee dear devs, consider this! :D

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Originally Posted by dietlbomb

I don't think it should be too lore-breaking for our characters to slip into the Battle of the Hornburg. It wasn't impossible for Merry to disguise himself as a bag and ride along with the Rohirrim toward Mundburg. Elves and dwarves and hobbits could easily pretend to be among those warriors in Helm's Deep that seemed to have seen too many or too few winters. It's dark and raining and they're wearing armour.

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Well, until we start shooting lightning bolts from our fingers anyway. ;-)

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Originally Posted by hurant

One can easily imagine a situation where the group does 3 subsequent runs, all focusing on only ONE objective, earning platinum score for one objective in one run.

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Based on J-dub's comments, I don't think that a platinum score will be possible if you only focus on one of those objectives. To me, it sounded like getting a platinum award will be based on not only the number of objectives you complete, but how well you do them. While there are obvious questions about 'What constitutes completing an objective well?', this is a new aspect of group play in this game.

In past raids, there might be 2 or 3 ways to complete the objective (despite the effort put into creating One True Path™), and at the end of the day, it didn't matter which one you chose. A flawless Durchest T2CM fight (no one dies, seamless aggro swaps by the tanks, consistent management of corruptions, that sort of thing) yielded the same results as a train wreck run where people die and his aggro is all over the place, but in the end, the group wins.

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Originally Posted by Solien

In past raids, there might be 2 or 3 ways to complete the objective (despite the effort put into creating One True Path™), and at the end of the day, it didn't matter which one you chose. A flawless Durchest T2CM fight (no one dies, seamless aggro swaps by the tanks, consistent management of corruptions, that sort of thing) yielded the same results as a train wreck run where people die and his aggro is all over the place, but in the end, the group wins.

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Yeah, this new system might offer an improvement in that department. So far it looks like going after T2 OR T2C in one run, with possibility to fail or change your mind in the process. One of tanks just died? Rez him, T2C is lost, but we can salvage T2 yet.

On the other hand, you could spend several hours, wiping on T2, when T2C is still too far away to consider. When you, eventually, give up after making some progress, you get... nothing. You can technically run some pity party in T1, but not everyone wants to bother at that point - and it's still one t1 after so many hours. New system looks like you can get a reward for every failed attempt at T2 equivalent (if you do not mess up *too much*), just of T1 quality, but with no locks either. While lack of them is still troubling, the only upside I can see about it is that there's no need to wipe after you fail T2C, while your group might still pull off T2. No idea if it's enough to compensate for Farmville Syndrome affecting everything else.

This looks like a dream: Challenging solo content in lotro. I have not seen that ever since Icy Crevasse or Death from Below have been nerfed. So I hope this announced challenging content stays challenging. And I hope the same goes for the group versions as well, the last year was really disappointing for me. Now let scaled instances be challenging again as well with the class changes and I will be happy.

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Originally Posted by hurant

First of all, big thank you for the 20 questions and so many detailed answers in the thread.
I'd love some further explanations on how the system works. I'm already delighted at the news that the rewards are finally progression-based, not RNG-only.
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1A. Complete once, then run the quickest one

The community will take advantage of the path of least resistance in terms of reward/difficulty ratio.
This has happened all the time in the past, examples include Grand Stair, ToO Lightning, BfE.

This will likely end up in the complete-once-for-deed-then-run-the-quickest-one scenario.
The average time of completing a current t1 raid is like this:
FoS: >20 minutes
FotLM: 10 minutes
BfE: <5 minutes

It is no wonder that any of the t1 raids except BfE was hardly run.


[/B]

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This is my main question. I like the flexibilty of the proposed system but this worries me. Variety keeps people happy and is better than a mono diet. Servers where key players and kinleaders are still running a variety of content seem to have a much more engaged community overall. Those where it's only the same old same old sammy runs and it's only those runs that are ever run, whether by pugs or kins and alliances, the numbers appear to be shrivelling, and the players who remain are getting bored and fractious :)

so i really hope this content stays appealing for a long time. good luck devs with the tricky balancing of competing wants!

Just a couple of thoughts after 19 pages of thread…

Solo/Grouping:
It sounds like Turbine has done a good job at recognizing that there will be people who want to group and those who don’t and have strived to make the mechanic scale to fit both needs. I’m not huge into grouping (what drives my interest in MMOs is the community). That being said, the group mechanic for this type of instance might actually coax me into looking join a few group instances.

New Medal System:
I like the fact that most of the medals can be traded up. I’m a little bummed that you might not be able to trade up to platinum, but I understand the reasoning. As long as there is the ability to solo into a platinum medal then I guess I’ll just have to up my game. :cool:

Character Scaling:
I’ve seen this done in other MMOs with a good deal of success. In my experience it actually encourages new players to play with their higher level friends which really increases the fun component. I am sure that the scaled character will not be as “decked out” as the true level 95. I suppose that there will be some groups that are into running instances at “optimal efficiency” and they might not want to group with lower scaled characters but I’m guessing there will be a lot of groups that are looking for a fun battle experience and will enjoy having their lower level friends along.

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Originally Posted by Angadan

[Snip] Nevertheless, every rule has its exceptions. There are no Americans in North Korea today, except for the ones that are. There are no elves or dwarves in a closed-off Rohan at this point of the tales...except for the ones that are. Think of it this way: Rohan is such a VAST land, with such wide bounds, and it commands one of the natural migration paths between the northwest of Middle-earth and Gondor, etc. ... how would it be possible that there were NOT at least some elves and dwarves in the country (whether the boundary guard forces were aware of them or not)?

Thanks for your post, I enjoyed reading it!

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...especially those select hobbits, dwarves and elves specifically chosen by Elrond to follow follow along after the Fellowship to aid them in their secret endeavors.

It sounds like we will have a set of trait trees specific to Big Battles whose benefits we will not be able to realize outside of said Big Battles, true?

If so, how much of an impact will these trait trees have on our ability to complete challenges for medals within BBs?

Are these instances being designed and tuned around the concept that you will need to have spent the points earned from bronze medals to be able to attempt silver medal challenges, and silver completed for gold, and gold for Platinum? Can someone who has no medals to their character's name, but is otherwise outfitted and played at a top level reasonably expect to be able to achieve the highest medals?

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Originally Posted by spelunker

It sounds like we will have a set of trait trees specific to Big Battles whose benefits we will not be able to realize outside of said Big Battles, true?

If so, how much of an impact will these trait trees have on our ability to complete challenges for medals within BBs?

Are these instances being designed and tuned around the concept that you will need to have spent the points earned from bronze medals to be able to attempt silver medal challenges, and silver completed for gold, and gold for Platinum? Can someone who has no medals to their character's name, but is otherwise outfitted and played at a top level reasonably expect to be able to achieve the highest medals?

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Actually - I believe the trait sets are a permanent part of the class upgrades that are being planned - which traits can be unlocked by spending medals/points earned during the Big Battle instance...

As far as for affecting lvl 10+ upscaled - I think that as "What happens in Big Battles, stays in Big Battles"...in other words, the upscaling in good ONLY while in the instance, and the upscaling ONLY consists of multiplying your EXISTING stats/gear/virtues, etc to the level those would be if you truly were 95 (without gaining gear/virtues/stats that come at levels beyond your current level.

Any medals apparently are used to purchase only class traits (NOT gear)...and once those traits are slotted, they affect/improve your overall performance - even in the Big Battles...which of course these traits would also be upscaled just as your morale/power/vitality, DPS, etc would be...

Anyways - that's how I understand it will be...but then I could be wrong, or they could change things up before release...