There are more mountains in Gondor than playable landscape. As others have said, Gondor does not seem a kingdom at all. A revamp of Gondor is needed. If not, the devs could settle the score with fully fledged new gondorian regions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantion
Yeah, all right, everyone's persuaded me.Quote:
Originally Posted by provamail10
I think they should revisit those zones and crack open Central Gondor's closed-off vales . . .
And an Ered Nimrais zone would be great! They could have passes leading out to Central Gondor, the Beacon Hills, and Taur Druadan, as well as perhaps parts of West Gondor - - - with some passes leading down to the hidden area perched up high above Minas Tirith and down to Pelennor Fields . . . That's all on the same "Zone 3 Gondor" map. Since Boromir talks about those tough mountain passes that could freeze a man . . . we know they exist. I do think though the game lessens Boromir's concerns RE- how we're climbing all over the Misties between Rivendell and the Wolf-Denes as it is.
Cheers! :D
I'd love to see those areas made playable. Lower the impassables in a few select locations, throw in a few points of interest, and throw in some of the old-school, non-vectored quests that you find by exploration, like the ones they tucked into Mitheithel.Quote:
Originally Posted by provamail10
100% agree, would love to see the amount of impassable space lowered significantly. Even if it's a big area of open landscape with nothing else, would be cool to have more options to traverse through middle earth. Gondor is a great example of a full region that feels way too boxed in.Quote:
Originally Posted by auximenes
All this talk about Gondor reminded me of a photoshop file I had made on my PC, with all the impassable landscapes.
It's interesting how different the philosophies for different regions are, depending on when they were added (the game's own health/time constraints/expectations for the future), or the number of times each of these were revisited and revamped.
Compare this map of Bree-land's traversable landscape (which doesn't even include the disappearance of most of its southern borders that's coming with the new Cardolan region!)
https://i.imgur.com/8eDz5rR.png
... to a similar map of Gondor (and I didn't even darkened the sea, which is obviously impassable too):
https://i.imgur.com/HqsUMDO.png
(Note: there are some smaller impassables here and there that are so insignificant I didn't even bother to paint in black)
You can really notice the difference here. Bree-land has become a very traversable space from pretty much any direction, while on the other hand Gondor feels very crammed-in, almost like a corridor in comparison -- even more so when you consider that the players' average mount speed won't be the same at low levels than it is at level 100. I honestly don't have any hopes for a change in how the White Mountains are arranged here, it feels too late for that... which is why earlier on this thread (1st page actually) I specifically mentioned the big gap directly above the Cape of Belfalas. That one could actually do wonders for lessening that feeling of narrowness that is so present on this whole kingdom, without messing up with the bigger mountain range.
Definitely something could be done with the gap that shapes up the Blackroot Vale too, but that one's small enough that it would be hard to give it a purpose other than bringing it down for the sake of it. "Emyn Ernil", on the other hand, seems big enough that I can definitely see it being given an actual purpose as a smaller, Wildwood-like area, with its own content and a questing hub (perhaps for levels 105-110?). It could also be remade to offer new landscape connections between Western Gondor and Central Gondor, since at the moment you can only get from one region to another by going through two very small passages that don't really feel very realistic compared to how most of the game world is done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valather89
And of course, as some of you have already noted, there's also Anfalas, or Far Gondor as it's called around here. It's probably supposed to be less populated than the eastern parts (?), but I can see it expanding Gondor in a similar way that the Yondershire has expanded the Shire: fewer towns albeit bigger in size, and a way more expansive wilderness around it, including the long shore and a mostly-traversable Pinnath Gelin.
Nice comparisons :)
I wouldn't mind Blackroot Vale expanded but then again, like you said it would be just for the sake of it, and even then it doesn't do any good if it doesn't have any new settlements. The problem with Gondor isn't just that it's boxed in, in theory that's ok since mountains and valleys being there are ok, but the real problem is it doesn't feel lived-in and you can't fix that by just expanding landscape and opening pathways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valather89
While Emyn Ernil and the Belfalas gap seem like the best spots to add more functional content in - again, there are more interesting and more crucial spots needed, as we discussed on the previous page under my lvl ranges suggestion, plus it's hard to come up with decent questing there anyway - you can't have corsairs there and you can't have orcs, the action is on the coast and in the direction of Minas Tirith. Also, while the situation right now is not ideal... there is a very good chance you end up making it even worse if you open it up and turn it into "Wildwood" styled area with things to do... so rather than actual lived-in civilization it would be just filled with game'y mob spots that the game needs and whatnot, whereas as it currently stands - there is still quite a lot of civilization visible from the housing area, if you climb the cliffs North and look into the distance (though the exposure is very limited).
My suggestion would be this:
If they ever have time to revisit Western-Central-Eastern Gondor - maybe while they're working on Far Gondor? - I would keep it to minimum and limited to what Scenario and landscape folks can do independently, so without having to bring the content team into this endeavor, which certainly makes it simpler and less of a bigger project. With that mindset, I would focus on a few things:
1) Bring down the impassables surrounding the giant gap of Belfalas on all sides to allow a more precise look into the space. The gap wouldn't become traversable but make the "fake" distant civilization of Belfalas more visible from all of these adjacent regions. Maybe make it a little bit more impressive and believable too, as a lived-in space, so not just Gondorian-styled castles with mega structures and towers, like the ones currently visible from the Cape of Belfalas, on its Northern borders... but actual houses visible from the distance, like actual cities, but not these mega castle hubs. Something more similar to how Morlad was done. The existing castles can be there too, though. Make it look impressive and like it's a lot of stuff in there, different things might be visible from different spots all around the gap. This would make it feel like we truly have an entire lived-in space attached to Gondor and Dol Amroth, away from the threats of the shore and thus irrelevant to the story we experience but it would be there, it would have exposition and that would be enough to make a difference. If the space doesn't need to be too refined (because it won't be traversable) I believe it's something fairy simple to achieve once a world-builder delves into it! Copy-paste some houses, parts of existing settlements, shape some of the terrain, sounds fairy simple (well, I know it never is, but certainly much simpler than coming up with a fully traversable quest zone... one that is nowhere near on the list of our filling-the-gaps priorities at that).
2) Now, this depends on time constraints, either A) give the same treatment to existing untraversable valleys that can house some distant settlements B) make these valleys traversable with villages filled with people but there won't be any quests there
- East of Morlad seems impossible - because there is this old mine with wild orcs, so clearly it needs a mountainous barrier there. Same for North and East of Ethring, it's got tunnels of the Dead and the orc cave, so it's clearly supposed to be a backyard spot, would be weird if more lived-in landscape popped up beyond it. Unfortunately, a hard no here.
- Everything East of Calembel (though maybe a bit more in a Northern corner, we don't want to distort whatever was the story deal with the Dead tunnels near Ethring) seems like a great spot to delve new passes and valleys, with new spaces that can be filled in with new villages.
- The valley above Linhir could work and it could connect with the valley above Pelargil, if it was all made traversable. But if untraversable... well, even just allowing the player to climb high enough on surrounding cliffs and see into these valleys with multiple villages tucked in... that would work and can make it all feel more like a lived-in kingdom!
I'm of the opinion that not everything needs to be traversable if it's not necessary/feasible but giving Gondor some nice final touch to make it feel more alive, even without making it all traversable and questable, would come a long way to solve the current feeling of nothingness and non-aliveness of these parts of the kingdom.
Well, overall, we're all raising some great points here about what needs the most attention and in what capacity. I hope Scenario is reading this thread and bookmarks ideas in the back of his head :D
These areas being suggested for opening up could be left empty of aggressive enemies (assuming there are no quests added) to allow for great big beautiful open areas for RP events and meetings.
I’ve been away from the forums for a bit, so it is really awesome to see that this thread is still going strong, with plenty more ideas to fill in the gaps - I also take great joy from the idea that Scenario was reading this thread much earlier on in its life saying ‘just you wait’ to himself!
In relation to the most recent discussion - Gondor is clearly the next big target for filling in the gaps, and various posters have done an excellent job of illustrating this. The run through the Gondorian lands at the moment can be quite a drag (mostly due to the outdated rep system in Central Gondor!), so anything new that can be added in to make the regions fresh and interesting would definitely increase their replayability.
In terms of Eriador, it is so amazing to see Cardolan and Swanfleet added. Where should the next filling in the gaps region be here? Well, given that we’ll be getting Cardolan and have lots of Arthedain, I think it is only fair that we get more Rhudaur - either the Remants of Rhudaur, Mount Gram or the Weather Marches (to use my names for them). Fingers crossed for one (or all of these) being part of the schedule for next year (alongside a return to capped level adventures!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valather89
Ty for this! I'm gonna borrow your map.
I agree with what's been said so far to expand Gondor --- and make it feel more settled. There are some ways to do it.
1- Fill-in those vales with settlements in the northern part of Central Gondor. Make that huge lake of the Ringlo River accessible and put another town along its shores. Let players climb to where the rivers flow out from the mountain snows. Even better yet: retract or knock-down some of those mountains! Too many vales - not enough open lands in Northern Lower Lebennin! :D I'd rather Ost Anglebed become a "middle hill-town" than strictly a mountain fort! :D
2- Make Ered Nimrais a region between Far Anorien, Central Gondor, Eastern Gondor, and Old Anorien. Maybe explore that business with the strange Nameless afflicting Taur Druadan from the south some more - maybe a hidden passage to another region down deep beneath the mountains? Potential there. We merely "sealed it up" in Taur Druadan; we didn't quite "rout" the evil.
3- Yes, Emyn Ernil should absolutely be its own zone above the Cape of Belfalas. They can just have a wall of bushes around the "public version" of the Cape like they are doing with the Bree-land Homesteads.
4- Tarlang. How about . . . a Wildermore style rustic Gondorian mountain village (*like Byre Tor but Gondorian) up the slopes of Tarlang? Or a mountain-hold? With winding passes leading down from Blackroot Vale, up from Tarlang's Crown, north from Havens of Belfalas, and west from Lamedon? And how about the Ruins of Garth Lotheg from the Erech session play (Volume 3 Book 3 I believe?) finally? They should be kind of cut into the mountainside from the Lamedon direction - if my understanding is correct.
*Or better yet: Perhaps they rebuilt Garth Lotheg in the intervening three-thousand-year-long Third Age?
5- An Ered Nimrais zone could also perhaps expand into more settled Gondorian vales stemming from eastern Lamedon and Ringlo Vale. I'd like to complete the course of the River Gilrain as well. Etc.
6- Don't just have Tolfalas be a mountain rising from the sea. Have traversible parts of it. Perhaps there's a smaller port city on the southern reaches of it? Perhaps some mountain passes climbing high up above the sea? Lots of potential.
7- Finally, there's 1 more obvious expansion of the Kingdom they could make that few have noticed. Yes, yes, yes, the area around the River Poros is technically an extension of South Ithilien, and yes, it's technically Harondor.
But it makes ZERO sense not to have the opposite side of the Anduin settled, at least somewhat, in the parts of the river closest to Pelargir, Upper Lebennin, and south of the Mouths of Anduin - just along the same inlet as Tolfalas. They could have walls and the like with defenses to hold against foes from Harondor to the south (*honestly, the "deserted, debated land" part should be farther south of Pelargir, not literally across the river from it!!!) - and it would kind of make sense to have a smaller defending port city on the southern shore of the Anduin where it hits the Mouths.
Granted, Corsairs of Umbar could've harried those ports as they went after Pelargir, which would make some sense. Or perhaps the ports went into "siege mode," the Nazgul got impatient, and so the Scourge skipped some ports and just went straight for Pelargir (*a costly mistake in the end). I'd honestly prefer that approach since they have the Corsair fleet more directly on the northern shorelands.
Maybe these gaps could be filled as some sort of a Gondor revamp that could also . . . if you finish Volume IV Book 9 . . . automatically swap the Dawnless Day file back to a blue sky file upon completion of that book? As a reward for defeating Sauron? :D
Cheers! :D
Well, Phantion, I'm really negative about Belfalas gap here. I can tell you hate spaces being untraversable but I would rather not see them attempt that there... because as I mentioned, it may actually make Belfalas look even smaller and like nothing of note is actually there, which will be even worse than what we have now. Now, at least I can imagine there are whole cities and lived-in spaces there, in the middle of Belfalas, and that it's the most urban and lived-in space of this side of Gondor (where all these refugees from the coast run towards, you know, the ones that used to live in our premium houses...). By opening up this space you risk it being laughably small with 2-3 small towns and that's it. So I would rather have them hint more at this "inaccessible civilization" of these parts (with lots of urban buildings and houses visible literally from all parts of Gondor) rather than try to make the space questable. But they can certainly fill in these other potential spaces and valleys and make them traversable if feasible
Hmm, I like the Dawnless Day being there since it reflects the timeframe and quests in the area - so unless it's a switch I can choose... a hard no. If the area still has corsair ships and whatnot it's only natural it still has Dawnless Day in it. Sure, would it be cool to have all areas reflect changes after key moments, such as end of wars? Of course it would. But then again, not in a way that it is shoehorned into the areas that simply weren't designed with post-war content in mind and as much as I would love to see the "After Battle" world expand to encompass all of Rohan and Gondor with clear skies... well, that's certainly unfeasible and a bit of a waste of time. Unless there is nothing else left on the map maybe then :P Or, alternatively, if they just do this for the perfection's sake, so they come up with a bigger but one-time project where they just copy over entire landscapes of Rohan and Gondor onto After Battle layer, remove all Sauron/Saruman mobs, camps or good NPCs from places where they shouldn't be anymore and call it a day. Kind of a meh approach with not much content to play with, other than what makes sense for story purposes going forward, but it would do wonders for the world. This would of course be tremendous amount of work and looking like waste of dev time if they were to fill all these spaces with stuff to do (and that wouldn't make much narrative sense anyway, are we just going to kill wild bears and wolfs everywhere in time of peace?), but if they seriously took the "mass landmass, almost nothing to do but it makes the world feel sooooo good!" approach, well... I guess they would be able to do that in one/two updates, since it's just copy-pasting and readjusting some NPCs and mass-removing stuff (with a few places that were burnt repaired or just cleaned). But then again, who would be actually interested in that? If there was little content but mass copy-pasted landscape of places we already been to? Even though the effort would have been commendable... I can already imagine all the threads mocking SSG for lack of content, being lazy, coping old stuff or whatever else, the usual lack of nuance in player base judgment, so that's unlikely and a move SSG are not going to make, I guess. (but seriously, that would be the only feasible way I can see us getting fully-fledged After Battle versions of these huge kingdoms, if they focused on just making it happen rather than filling these post battle versions with content)
Did some exploring of the edges of Cardolan today on Bullroarer. Lots of neat little things that i wasn't sure would be in there.
Swimming up from Sarn Ford you enter into a "Brandywine River" Zone that just seems to be the River... it does have a few little entrances into the Old Forest... and that dock that you could see from the Woe of the Willow entrance... and an actual entrance into the instance itself.
Definitly enjoyed riding along the South Downs/Lone Lands borders... some nice views there. And i like the outflow from both the Midgewater, and the Breeland Homesteads, both areas make much more sense now. Still some hills we can't summit, but that's to be expected.
Definitely lots to explore! I'm still looking and hoping to find the Goonies cave from the end of the Forsaken Inn instance. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TesalionLortus
Well, with the Dawnless Day, the point is that it currently - isn't - a choice; the zones are time-locked in that moment.
I think that maybe . . . if they just put an NPC in the Black Gate area . . . kind of like the Eyes and Guard folks on Bullroarer . . . who if you right-click following the ending of Volume IV Book 9, you get the option of removing the Dawnless Day. The quest is irreversible - but it's still the player's choice. A player may regret that choice later - but that's on the player, not the design. I'd rather have that than naught - especially given how, with housing decoration day-files, we're seeing that "changing skies" around a particular area seems to be a more feasible thing.
---
Now, I get what you're saying there: that the imagination can fill-in all these missing spaces a lot more. But I think the reason the region feels so "laughably small," which is the current situation, is that it literally is! They only developed half of Central Gondor and named it Central Gondor, since their main focus was moving from west to east. I feel they were a lot more thorough with Rohan - and Rohan doesn't feel small to me (*though it may if you're on a warsteed riding at "ludicrous speed.").
Anyways, let's agree to disagree. I think they could put more "places of note" in some of the missing spaces in Belfalas- Garth Lotheg being a big one.
I love that instance! I can't wait to explore the new regions. With the "Goonies cave" ---> actually, if you look out, you'll notice you've climbed all under the Lone-lands and come out on the Hoarwell overlooking the Trollshaws. I think, believe it or not, the "image of the Trollshaws" you see from that cave is . . . a little bit north of Garth Agarwen along the river. So, they'd really have to redevelop much of the northern half of the Lone-lands to get out to where they lets out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feral_Yoda
Cheers! :D
The problem was they significantly shrunk Gondor (just the coast, mostly) and left no wiggling room, and that's something that can't be fixed by opening a little bit of what there is in Belfalas, would still feel overwhelmingly small if compared with Rohan. So hmm, this is really the case where yeah, I would say imagination and distance-engagement could do wonders where physical space couldn't. Well, in any case, hopefully there is opportunity to go back and do some tweaks somedayQuote:
Originally Posted by Phantion
I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here but, while I actually love the new maps (I know many who disagree, but I really do, they work specially well with zones that use a lighter and warmer palette of colors), it's funny how they highlight a few things that haven't aged that well over the years in terms of landscape design.
I'm mainly speaking about the new Lone-lands map here. Most of it looks very nice. However, Garth Agarwen and Agamaur really stand out now, and not exactly in a good way, heh. I like that area and instance when I'm there, but those walls feel really off on a map. It kind of reminds you that you're playing a themepark MMO and not a recreation of Middle-earth, so to speak.
https://i.gyazo.com/84dd2cb330e16143...4039e52b31.jpg
... And that's another reason why it would be so cool to see the gap north of Lone-lands get filled in (yes, I was shamelessly trying to get to this from the start :D), so that the area's backyard is fixed and some of its walls are torn down to make the entire thing feel less "artificial" and off-looking. Of course, the red waters are always bound to stand out on a map (and I like them that way!), but I believe/hope the contour can be smoothed out a little at some point.
In a way, yes, but not exactly. The landscape is exactly what it is and feels natural for what it is - a magically altered bloody space.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valather89
The problem with Garth Agarwen is that it's at the border of the map and thus it makes it a bit off, because of the difference in colors. So yeah, having more landscape there could help but then again - it won't help too much, since the individual map of Lonelands would still have Garth Agarwen essentially as its border, with maybe only a new pass added and a text that reads "To Rhudaur" "To Gram" or something.
This is something I just said here, the new maps serve their purpose but due to how very accurate they are... there will be always some weird looking spots or artificial spaces at borders of the map or in the form of messy transitions, if you wanna have the individual region maps - that can't be helped. One solution to resolve this would be to have these maps encompass more terrain beyond the borders of the region, with less empty spaces, and then have the actual borders of the region put on the map to highlight that's the border - rather than have the map just abruptly end at regional borders and immediately transition into empty parchment. But that's obviously too much work to redo these maps in order to fix something that minor. But like I said in the other thread, would love them to include a scrollable stitched together version of Eriador someday and on that version of the map - Garth Agarwen wouldn't be such a weird-looking spot and would integrate more flawlessly with everything else surrounding it all from all sides, and if they ever get us to Gram, then even better and would become completely integrated
Btw, don't have disc space for Bullroarer. Would you be willing to send me good screenshots (without markers) of new maps for Lonelands, Eregion? (and Enedwaith? is there a new map too? : DDD ) Because... can't wait to put those on my stitched together version in Photoshop!
Or maybe no, wait. I forgot these maps are messed up in full screen in-game :P Unless you can get the "real size" with a plugin. Or otherwise I just gotta wait for someone to leak the actual images from the dat file, if it ever happens before the releaseQuote:
Originally Posted by TesalionLortus
I get what you're saying and I agree. However, that could also be fixed by making that hypothetical new zone be a part of the Lone-lands region instead of it being a new different region altogether, and updating the Lone-lands map whenever it's added to make the entire region much bigger than it is now. It would kinda mirror how the Angle of Mitheithel and the Wildwood have their own maps but at the same time they're still included in the Trollshaws and Bree-land maps, respectively. Although it's true that they didn't do that with the Yondershire, which is technically an area of the Shire but acts as a different region where maps are concerned - and the Shire map remained the same after update 33 (aside from the "To the Yondershire" text).Quote:
Originally Posted by TesalionLortus
I also agree with you about the Eriador map. It worked for a time, but it's no longer an accurate representation of how the current game world is. I do think that at some point in the future it'll likely get replaced with something like what you are suggesting here, but they're probably fine with the current map for the time being. I can imagine that the gaps we're talking about on this thread would appear much more glaring on a map like that, so they're wise to hold off on a change until they have all the regional maps updated with the new style and the entirety of Eriador mostly filled in (or, at the very least, totally planned out).
P.S.: The picture was a screenshot from Louey7's stream. I don't have the map myself - nor I have seen Enedwaith's yet. [Edited: I've just seen it now, but I'm not really a fan of this one, lol]
Yeah, but in this case it doesn't even fit, because it's hardly a gap within Lonelands, and whatever is up there North of Garth Agarwen is big enough to be its own thing, probably including Mount Gram. That's hardly "Lonelands" so wouldn't fitQuote:
Originally Posted by Valather89
Not really, it's the most off for Gondor with the missing chunks of mountains, that's why I filled all these spaces on my fan-made one. But for Eriador gaps it wouldn't be much different than your usual fade-out on individual maps. For the time being, they could even place some text hinting at places that exist in these gaps to make it look attractive and like these aren't just glaring empty spaces. But sure, first they gotta change all old maps to new ones, so it's all consolidated. Plus, more important... UI improvements so higher res map files are a realityQuote:
Originally Posted by Valather89
Were we ever to produce something to fit in that area, we'd likely call it Rhudaur.Quote:
Originally Posted by TesalionLortus
*squints suspiciously*Quote:
Originally Posted by Scenario
Rhudaur confirmed! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Scenario
Isn't Rhudaur suppose to be where currently Trollshaws are???Quote:
Originally Posted by Scenario
Sadly, my prediction is... it's nowhere near on their radar, since Scenario wasn't hesitant to tease us with a name :P
But let's delve into it!
https://i.ibb.co/Xy7zzZC/Untitled.jpg
I guess potential Rhudaur would be roughly the size of the Yondershire? Which makes it suitable as a regular quest pack update? On the other hand...
In my earlier suggested list of urgency I said this gap could bring us to Gabilshatur through the mountainous passes near Gram but if the new addition would be just Rhudaur, well, I guess the waiting could be long and there would be still such a glaring gap... So this makes me think perhaps this entire area is a great fit for next "mini expansion" whenever that may be (and the mini expansion thing seems to be more warmly received with lower lvl stuff such as CardoSwan - whereas with Three Peaks it was met with scorn, since it was cap and thus seemed more like a cash grab to many people). So maybe, hmm, maybe it's a good idea to focus these "mini expansions" on the gaps? Or needed lower lvl alternatives such as an alternative to Moria?
So, similar to Cardo-Swan, we could have Rhuda-Gram and that mini expansion could encompass Western stretch of Misties to connect with Trollshaws, Gram and Moors. Depending on how feasible it is and whether they can make a marketing buzz out of it, they can even move the PvMP Moors to another layer and have the pre-invasion open-world version of the Moors that is the proper intro to the actual PvMP storyline. Maybe. (which would be an opportunity to give Moors a landscape refresh) But not necessarily, just surrounding Moors and maybe have a few portal entry ways would be just fine too! Either way, as a mini expansion (but still mountainous space so there wouldn't be as much of a wiggling room for content as there is in Cardo-Swan) the area would be just fine to accommodate 30 something to 45 alternate route to Gabilshatur and then 45-50 that acts either as alternative to Angmar and alternative follow-up from the Misties that can feed players to Angmar, and maybe it all culminates in some kind of modern Goblin Town 2.0 with Mount Gram?
(as alternate route, but the Epic does need to introduce the Golodir story and deal with Rammas Deluon, so trip to North Downs and proper Epic entry to Angmar necessary... if someone cares about exploring that entire storyline, but otherwise, if not, a player could choose, just like they gotta choose now between Breeland, Cardo-Swan, Northdowns, Lonelands etc)
Rhudaur is a funny one. It's the Trollshaws but it's also North of Lonelands (Amon Sul was contested territory between Kingdoms) and parts of Eastern Angmar, and its official territory extended as far as Car Bronach, because we have Arnorian stronghold there, plus we had Rhudaur barrows. Through Trollshaws and Lonelands (+ mentioned Rhudaur) are probably the core Arnorian territory, whereas everything else would be hill-men and wild men populated, for the most part, under Arnorian authority, and that's where the Witch-king got his claws first and made allies. But yeah, that's one of the reasons why it would be so cool to delve more into Rhudaur next! Also, the whole Lost Temple business made it even more confusing and intriguing...Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleziana
Rhudaur did include the Trollshaws and the Angle of Mitheithel as its eastern and southern extents, and also the northeastern half of the Lone-lands (Garth Agarwen was a Rhudauran fortress). But we have yet to see what would have been the northern half of the kingdom. That was likely to be the first to fall under Angmar's influence due to its proximity, and probably included the original seat of its kings (we know they ended up fleeing to Thelgarth in the Angle, but from where?).Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleziana
So it would be a similar case as the new Cardolan region, which includes its old seat of kings (Caranost) and was a huge part of the old Cardolan kingdom, but not the entirety of it: much of Bree-land was a part of Cardolan too, and Minhiriath as well.