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If you dont like it, dont use it. If your in a kin that wants to use them, then find a new kin.Quote:
Originally Posted by seafoodbasket
Utopia, or anyone else with knowladge of the Lua stuffs:
Is there any way to adjust the size/color/opaqueness of the Examination Tooltip Display?
I want to be able to see what I'm looking at, it just doesn't have to be so big and getting in the way of stuffs.
Thx again, you guys rule!
Not that I can think of with the scripting. But I think you can skin the tooltip window to make it more opaque. That would probably affect other windows at the same time though, but I am not that familiar with skinning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grampsaz
I agree 100%Quote:
Originally Posted by seafoodbasket
I am not any kind of doomsayer, that kind of scripting didn’t kill WoW, but it did take a tremendous amount of fun out of playing.
As long as the API scripting has extensive limitations, so that it can only display what the UI already displays ( but in a different fashion ) I have no issue here.
I think the most important difference is not that these things exist in WoW, but that the community itself made these things "mandatory". Although I don't have a problem with a lot of these ideas, such as aggro/dps meters, as there will always be those who want as much information as possible. The problem comes when there's a way for one player to enforce an arbitrary requirement on another. For that reason, I sincerely hope that plugin communication between players, and other methods of checking what plugins a player has never gets implemented.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayln
In my mind, Lua plugins exist solely for players to improve their own experience within the game, not to govern what other players do.
This should be stated over and over. The mandatory use of addons is wholly and entirely created by the community.Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia
BTW D_U,
Are any of the following possible with the API?
Range Finder - shows the distance between you and your target, I doubt it since you can't access the target info yet.
A Graph paper type overlay for the screen. I had one of these in WoW. Pretty much you loaded it up and it placed lines across your screen so it looked just like graph paper. You could then move UI elements around and line them up nice and straight. Just a handy little tool to make the custom UI's nice and neat.
The fact that gearscore etc is not available is a great deal to get excited about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grampsaz
No to the first one, but the 2nd one should be more than possible. I was thinking about creating a "Drawing" class similar to other languages that allows you to draw lines, shapes etc. And I was also playing around with a cheap MS Paint type idea, unfortunately the latter doesn't work too well, because there seems to be a delay between successive mouse position calls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gedachtnis
So yeah, in short - it would be relatively easy to place a graph on the screen with a transparent background, and making it so it isn't MouseVisible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia
Ahh yes, Align for WoW. This my OCD would love for perfectly aligned and positioned windows. mmm...
ALIGN!! That was it, and yes I'm right there with ya, spending hours getting it just right :DQuote:
Originally Posted by myskaal
Do you use Notepad++ or something similar to write with?Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia
I'm an IDE type and NP++ seems to be the best thing I can find to mess around with Lua. I'm also a C#/C++/Java type and the syntax and style is a little odd. Would you recommend playing with regular Lua scripting to get started? I don't want to bork my game trying to get used to plugins.
I use Ultra-Edit for most scripting, including Lua (C# I use the VS IDE), and I actually did put up syntax highlighting plugins for UE/Np++/PSPad - although admittedly they aren't as perfect as I'd like them to be - but they do include all the API classes/functions/keywords.Quote:
Originally Posted by FyreBrand
As far as learning it goes - while it is different than the standard C-based languages, it's not completely so. The best I could suggest is keeping this on hand for examples of structure.
The first thing to keep in mind is that Lua doesn't assume that when you're calling a function via an instance of a class (i.e. myPlayer.GetLevel()) that you're actually passing that instance to the function. So instead you'll have to use the ":" operator (i.e. myPlayer:GetLevel())
Most of the rest is just difference in structure, and some operators. for example:
if/elseif/else
other than the wordy replacement for brackets, there's a couple other things to note: First, -- is the Lua equivalent of // (--[[ and ]]-- are block comments) . Second, ~= is the Lua equivalent of != .Code:if (x ~= true and y==false)then
--do something
elseif (x==true and y~=false)then
--do something else
else
--do whatever
end
for
That actually would be the equivalent of doing:Code:
for x=1,200 do
--do something
end
You can however add your own incremental as a 3rd parameter to the if statement, otherwise it will automatically increment by 1.Code:if (x=0;x<=200;x++){
//do something
}
while
There's a few quirks here and there, as well as stuff like scoping and "self", but most of that can be easily picked up on just by looking over the Turbine example plugins as well as the plugins of other authors.Code:while (x < 20) do
--do something
end
Overall though, there's relatively few actual Lua functions we'll have access to. We're limited to the base functions, as well as the math library, so the lion's share of functions will be from the LotRO API. So while you could take the time to learn the language from scratch, you'll probably be better off just adapting like you probably have been - think of how you'd do it in your "native" language, and adapt it to Lua syntax/structure.
Just to let you know, don't be surprised if you have to go in and fix errors from accidentally falling back on c-based operators/structure pretty frequently at first. I think all of us have had that problem - and to an extent still do. :p
Thanks. That is super helpful.
Where are these beta UI plugins available? I got a beta toon and I'd love to try them out.
umm...in the beta forums???Quote:
Originally Posted by couillon
probably in a sticky with Lua in the title
:D
nm, logged my beta forum acct and viola!, all the beta forums become visible at the bottome of the page, doh! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by couillon
why did you make a separate account instead of adding the beta key to the sub'd one?Quote:
Originally Posted by breteob
:D
Because that's what some of us were asked to do? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Darej
Apologies, I have 2 accts. Ony one acct rec'd a beta invite. While logged in the non-beta sub acct, i tried to find the beta forums...doh!, not visible to me. I then logged into my beta sub acct and viola, there was the beta forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by breteob
Digital, I played around with the buffbars addon, not yours (yet) but the other one. If you are aware of it, there is a cooldown timer for pots when you use them to cure a debuff thats applied, or morale pots ect.
I'm assuming its able to do this because these pots are placed in the custom UI slot for that addon.
If that is able to be written, is it still not possible to write one for skills on other UIs?
I'd love to see a bar with timer for skills and a filter for skills with cooldowns under 10s over 5m ect.
Not to speak for D_U but the author for BuffBars found a workaround for the pot cd's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grampsaz
Basically BuffBars watches for a change in the stack size of the relevent pot. when the stack decreases BuffBars starts it's own 2 min timer. Split a stack of pots in your bags, it sets the timer off ;)
I know there was some talk with one of the addons at some point about having a timer trigger off of a keystroke. I'm not sure how far that idea got though. Pretty much you would have to define the keystroke, then define the length of cooldown for each one you want to track and change it anytime you changed Quickslots. Also try splitting a stack of pots in your inventory multiple times, it will trigger a cd timer each time, I imagine you'd have the same issue if you tried using the keystroke before the cd was finished.
EDIT: It doesn't matter which pots are in BuffBars Quickslots, if it's watching potion CD's any stack split or use will trigger it.
Ahh gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gedachtnis
I just got a -Rep for this post. :confused: Whatevah.Quote:
Originally Posted by auximenes
You can manually edit the location coordinates by loading up the UI save file and tweaking it with a text editor like Notepad. That's how I get my UI elements to line up nicely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gedachtnis
There's a reason I write overviews of addons in action and not actual addons ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by auximenes
I'm one of those people who knows just enough to be dangerous to themselves. :eek:
Text editors and such are mine enimies!
Since this is the only place to talk about this (I dont post on beta forums) I hope nobody minds me asking another question :D
The "Noob" Plugin, great fun, but me and a kinmate are thinking about a plugin for champs (could be done for hunters/tanks/wardens/WL) That would take some tech for Buffbars, recognize when a stance was off, and instead of NOOB on your screen a really big "Hows that no stance treating ya?" would pop up.
A few of us think that would be great fun and have some actual practical usage.
Thx.
Sorry if thats already posted, but is already available the API specification for LUA use?
I am not in the betta, but would like to study it to play with it once released.
I think that's a great idea, and definitely do-able. My minstrel would like the champs in my group have "Thats what ya get for staying in Fervour stance!!! lololol"Quote:
Originally Posted by Grampsaz
Since it's a corollary to other plugins currently in existence, I will defer to those authors to create it.
Sorry, the API is not currently available outside of beta. IIRC, the Lua plugins might not even be released with F2P+V3B2. It could, theoretically, be a long while before they post the API for all players to see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grothaal2
.
I used to have an addon in WoW that when I was tanking and someone pulled aggro it would send them a class specific whisper;
"I think you've angered the boss, might I suggest casting Earth-Shield now?"
to a Shaman for example.
"Hey that's great DPS, I think the boss is hungry for some Lazer Chicken now"
for a moonkin druid, etc.
You could go in and edit the whispers too, great fun!
YES! Definitely YES!
This is not possible with the current APIs:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gedachtnis
- We do not have access to information about a player's target, or target's target, or when those change. (That information may be available as part of the initial release of Lua scripting, but has not yet been implemented.)
- We do not have any information about threat. In the event that a creature switches targets for scripted reasons, the plugin could quickly become annoying. (Information regarding threat is not expected to be made available for the first release of Lua scripting.)
- Plugins cannot send chat messages. (While they can output text to a player's default chat window, the ability to send messages is not expected to be added for the initial release of Lua scripting.)
Yes I know. Hence I didn't ask for it. Was just mentioning a fun little addon I had at one time in a similar vein as the couple of previous posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredelas
I am curious though, since I haven't tried NoobDetector. How do you put a message up w/o being able to write to chat?
Plugins can output text to the default chat window using a built-in API method (Turbine.Shell.WriteLine). All this does is print text in the player's window. It does not actually send or receive chat messages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gedachtnis
The NoobDetector plugin doesn't do anything except print a reminder in your own window when you do something noobish.
There is a 'new' plugin made by someone that wrote it specifically for Hunters. It scans the Hunters active buffs (Strength stance, find the path, ect) and if they aren't active they get a reminder notification.
I've sent a PM to the author to see if he had time to make a champ one. I'll cross my fingers :D
How would you want that to work? I'm just curious what you're looking for in functionality and why. I'm leveling a champ (at 35) and find it fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grampsaz
Pretty basic really. Does a check to see if you've got ANY stance active, if you dont, then you get a notification pop up on screen.Quote:
Originally Posted by FyreBrand
In terms of why? Well, two parts. One its funny, just a running joke in kin, when you see a Champ with zero power we're always like <Name> How's that no stance treating ya? Always good for a few laughs.
Two, obviously Champs need a stance on, so even though there is a new notification when Controlled Burn wears off (F2P) Its a subtle horn animation, specifically when CB runs off, I'd like to know when its time to toggle on a stance again.
I see, thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grampsaz
Something that reminds you that you aren't in a "stance" would be awesome or if it could tell you didnt have a Track mines/wood/etc on.
I'm constantly forgetting that this game thinks everytime you log in it should clear your active toggles so I regularly spend 10 minutes or so without Guardian's Defence/Parry on.
If it doesn't cost power/morale to maintain it shouldnt turn off when you log out (but thats a different rant)
But, if toggles didn't turn off all the time, how would you ever get the deed done for turning it on?
I read today that the same author recently released one that tracks stances, food buffs, etc. I am excited to download it tonight and play around with it. Looks pretty cool and helpful
.
So anyone can do a decent logon screen and Ui without the very beautifull and extremly usefull not to mention ME like STORE buttons ?
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=348020
I would love to have them but my programming skills are below zero...
AFAIK those cannot be re-skinned by us..at least i have heard of no one being able to do so since i started playing in '06.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krakenheim
:D
Login screen can't be changed, adjusted, or skinned by players. Only the in-game UI can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krakenheim
Can we have some kind of official word as to whether this will be in for F2P (even in it's current form). I have a number of mates hanging out for an answer ... oh, and me too.
While Turbine has been replying to other threads in the Beta Lua Scripting forum, they have specifically avoided answering this question so far. It probably won't be announced until the final beta build has been tested in the next 2 weeks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lichbane
Please be careful what you allow. Addons like dps meters, threat meters, boss mods, raid mods, etc. have the potential to cause a lot of problems.
I, like most other people, used a lot of addons when playing WoW. People couldn't even raid on patch days if all the addons weren't updated. I had so many addons, I had an addon to scan to see when they were updated and then download them (Ace Updater).
Once these type addons become available, any raid member who uses them will have their overall raid performance enhanced. As people see the benefits, more and more people will use the addons, and raids will start requiring it. When that happens, the Devs will tune encounters based on the assumption that raids will use the addons. People/raids, who don't use the addons, will be at a huge disadvantage.
That is why I adding WoW type addons/mods would be a problem in LOTRO. It becomes a slippery slope. When an addon is so useful it makes content easier, then it basically becomes required for everyone. I do not think that is a good thing. I do not want to get to the point where I have to download/update 10-15 addons again just to raid.
As someone who has authored and collaborated on some WoW addons, I have some sympathy for your situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradd
However, many of the absolute best and most innovative ideas for UI changes have come from third party authors and their addons. Blizzard (the developer) has not been shy about begging, borrowing, or (according to rumor) buying some of these ideas to incorporate into their own stock UI.
In fact, for the entire duration of the Cataclysm alpha and beta, addons have all been disabled (since the UI is undergoing constant and radical changes). When it launches, players should find themselves "needing" fewer of their favorite old addons, because the UI has become so much more intuitive and incorporated many of those ideas.
Without this type of innovation, it's possible WoW could still be stuck with its clunky and deficient UI from 6.5 years ago. I think the same can be said of LOTRO.
UI changes I support. Addons like grid that help clean up and/or organize the UI are not the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredelas
Addons like DPS meters, Threat meters, Boss mods, etc. do more harm than good. Thay make raiding easier, forcing the Devs to make the content harder, which in turn forces players to use the mods or fall behind.
If trends continue the same way they have been during the F2P beta testing, you may very well see Turbine employees creating plugins in their spare time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradd
That is to say, if Turbine provides APIs for accessing combat events, you can bet that they will also provide some of the first examples of DPS meters, threat meters, and boss event parsing plugins. (All of these things can be calculated, estimated, or implied from combat events.)
Also, I think LOTRO would receive a huge boost from anything that makes raiding (or group content in general) more accessible. The alternative to this is dumbing encounters down and removing challenging elements for everyone.
PLEASE NOTE THAT NO FRAMEWORK IS IN PLACE (YET) TO IMPLEMENT ANY OF THE FOLLOWING TYPES OF PLUGINS:
DPS/HPS/Skill Usage meters: Many players appreciate straightforward, intuitive ways to evaluate their own individual performance in a given scenario. Some group leaders may appreciate similar functionality. Due to combat logging being near instantaneous, there are already tools to do some of this analysis outside the game.
The availability of this kind of analysis in game cannot lead to content becoming easier or being made harder. The only deflation or inflation that could result is that of certain players' egos. It might lead to an emphasis on personal accomplishment rather than group accomplishment. This is a social problem that already exists, not a game systems problem.
Threat meters: Threat/hate/aggro is a cloudy topic, currently ruled by intuition, speculation, and trepidation. However, even in the absence of APIs to determine exact threat levels, it's likely that with enough testing, they could be estimated from combat events. This type of plugin would take some of the mystery and risk out of group encounters.
Unless you consistently group with the same players with the same classes, same builds, same equipment, and same playstyle, knowing your limits as DPS or healer, or maintaining situational control as a tank can be extremely stressful. For players who level to 65 with limited exposure to groups (an easier task now than ever before), this can be a serious impediment to experiencing the "end-game" content. These are the types of players (and group leaders) who would benefit the most from threat meters. Other players who enjoy the added risk can continue without them.
Boss mods/Scripted encounter guides: Turbine will not intentionally create an encounter that cannot be completed using the stock UI. (I say intentionally because they seem to have designed quite a few buggy encounters in the past that could not be completed at all.) If you consistently group with players who are willing to learn encounters for weeks on end before meeting any measure of success, then you and your friends will not enjoy or benefit from these types of plugins.
-----------
To sum up, most of the fears, apprehensions, and doomsday foretelling about these types of plugins are a really a result of the inherent social inadequacies they expose in a lot of us. We all share these same shortcomings. For some players, these types of plugins will be the social lubricant that facilitates their experience of content that would otherwise be unavailable to them. For others like yourself and the people you group with, you'll simply gain an additional challenge and mark of pride for choosing not to use these plugins.
The apprehension many of us have is based in our experience using similiar addons in other games. We have seen first hand what they will do. People will play to the meters instead of playing smart, raids will force people to use certain addons, and the Devs will make encounters harder and harder based on the assunption that people are using the addons. It will pit player against player, and overall diminish the play experience for many of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredelas
If Turbine goes down that slippery slope, I am not one of the people who will refuse to use the addons. I do not enjoy beating my head against the wall. I do not want to face encounters I have no chance of completing because I don't have the addons the Devs assume I have.
So, if Turbine makes the mistake of allowing those type addons:
I will download them ...
wait to play after patches until the mods are updated...
let the mod tell me what to do and when to do it so I don't have to think ...
and play to the meters (refusing to use any skill that is not measured)...
just like everyone else will be forced to do.
TruthQuote:
Originally Posted by Bradd
Maybe Blizzard has changed in the year or so since I left WoW, but when I was there the encounters were getting more and more difficult as the mods became more sophisticated and refined. It had simply become nearly impossible to complete raid content without mods.
- If raiding mods were available in LOTRO...
- (big) IF Turbine kept encounter difficulty at a level that didn't require those mods...
- (big) IF raiders didn't complain the content was easy because the mods made it easy thus forcing Turbine to increase encounter difficulty...
Then I'd be fine with them. However, those are a lot of If's.
I frankly don't trust Turbine to keep encounter difficulty at a level where us normal humans can complete it. All I have to do is look at current content (and how that content is tested/tweaked) to see that isn't going to happen. It'll just get worse with the availability of raid-focused mods.
I'd bet it's going to happen though.
One thing to keep in mind is that Turbine has a ripcord feature for the plugin system.
I can't find an exact quote, but I do believe I saw somewhere that they can disable individual parts of the plugin system if they find there is a problem.
What does this mean? Well, IF they give us access to some aspect of the game that allows folks to trivialize content, they can disable that system very easily, and those plugins would no longer work.
Now, I have no idea if the following would work, but maybe that have a way to disable parts of the plugin system when you are in an instance? That would be great if they did cause they could then allow things like DPS meters (which I am not fond of) to work in the normal landscape, but not during raids.
This would allow folks to try different things to find the best DPS rotation for themselves, but not when in a raid. Maybe we could get a dev response if this is possible.
These type mods would be a huge boost to the people who make them, and to the sites that you download them from - because of the money making potential. For the general playerbase, they will do much more harm than good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredelas
A lot of people will judge people based on what they do on the meter (even though it is not an accurate measure of contribution to the raid). Human nature being what it is, people will blow the meter results out of proportion - it has happened time and time again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredelas
There are numerous examples of how the meters can negatively affect raiding. They lead to people denegrating other players. People insult other players if they do not meet some arbitrary standard of DPS (which often does not take into account the none dps aspects of the class). Meters cause friction between people who should be working together.
This can lead to people playing to the meters instead of playing smart. I recall Pallies in WoW who refused to cleanse because it caused their numbers to be lower on the heal meter. In LOTRO a RK who removes corruption, casts Do Not Fall to XXX, etc. will be lower on the meter than one who DPSes exclusively. If the RK who exclusively DPSes is praised because of his high DPS, the better RK (who uses all of his skills) will have an incentive to only DPS as well. Meters cause bad play.
Human nature is what it is. People want the big numbers and judge people based on the big numbers. Comparing epeen is a time honored tradition in MMOs. The only way to keep the tools from being abused is to control them.
(If people want to merely tweak their own rotation or gear, they can use some of the tools already present in LOTRO. There is no reason to allow implementation of group meters.)
I used a Threat Meter when raiding in WoW. Having a working threat meter allowed me to pump out the maximum amount of healing, while staying just below the tank in aggro. Groups who use threat meters will have their overall dps and healing output increased (since you know exactly how much you can do without getting aggro). You don't have to think about controling your aggro, the mod does all the thinking for you. This will trivialize content for raids that use the meters and potentially force the Devs to increase the difficulty to compensate. Groups that do not use the meters will then be facing content with little chance of success.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredelas
Boss Mods basically take the thought out of playing. You have a mod telling you what to do and when to do it. You have a computer running the raid and you are in effect merely a drone. There are several negative effects of these type mods. First, it takes a lot of the fun out of raiding. You feel like an automaton obeying the instructions of a computer. Secondly, and more serious, they trialize content. Boss Mods compensate for not paying attention. Using Boss Mods, you can eat supper, watch TV, and raid at the same time. Raids that were once challenging become boring (for people using the boss mods), which will potentially force the Devs to increase the difficulty to compensate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredelas
_____
When any addon is so useful it makes content easier, then it basically becomes required for everyone. Raids will require people to have certain addons to come. People will get so used to having the mods they can't play without them. I have seen it time and time again in WoW. People would not even bother to log in on patch days until all their addons were updated. I do not want to get to the point where I have to download/update 10-15 addons again just to raid.
Once these type addons are implemented and become comman, one of two things will happen:
Either the Devs will make raids more difficult (or more gimmicky) under the assumption that most people are using them, or
People will quickly become bored because the instances are easy with the mods, and demand more and more end-game content as a result.
+rep for speaking your mind and making some valid points!
These will all be important things to bring up again if (when?) Lua scripting actually goes live and if (when?) additional APIs are considered for implementation in future updates.
The developers have shown themselves to be refreshingly receptive to critical feedback (framed constructively, of course) on how these types of things actually get implemented. I look forward to much empassioned debate in the future! :)
My thoughts are that Turbine opened the ports to hell :)
If something can be built even as a basic metter, they will develop a metter. This metter will spread. The clamour for more API interfaces will come.
Turbine 'could' close the API and make it invalid IF they wish.
But, seriously, will they? lol, sure they will... (j/k)
They say it to make the changes more acceptable, saying they would roll some changes back, but my bet is that they will never do it.
If a metter is made, it will endure.
Some plugins are nice, but we have already a plugin that pops in your face what pot you need to use. Convenience, clean the bars...sure.... (the thinkless game has already arived).
Its a trend thats likelly to be more and more present.
Two thoughts or requests, how ever they come off :D
Buff bars tech with a reversed AmIbuffed.
So amIbuffed does a check to see if Glory is active (example) if it isn't you get a reminder.
Buffbars obviously shows buffs and debuffs, which I think is great, what I'm interested in is the UI bar that pops up when a debuff/pwr/morale threshold is met.
So take the viewer tech from amIbuffed and mix it with a ver. of buffbars.
What I'd like the end result to be is, if your a guard and you get a parry response a UI will pop up with your parry skills, get a block, UI pops up with your block response skills.
Burg same thing, get a crit, UI pops up with crit response skills.
Mins, tier 1 ballad played, UI pops up with tier 2 ballads.
Champs, defeat response skills pop up in a custom UI
Hunters, parry response.
Capts, defeat responses
Warden, when at <50% morale, a UI with five slots pops up with Dark before Dawn gambit being the end result
RK's only show skills on several UIs that will only show up when your at the right attunement (might be out of the scope of this suggestion) Or if/when a RK has certain buffs up (Closing remarks ect) then EC pops up.
Loremasters, cant think of a thing for them :D
But ya, see where I'm going with this? Is this at all possible?
I played around with a plugin for Mini that more or less did exactly what you are saying. For example, 3 skills only show up when WS is active, and T2, T3 and Anthems would appear as you play the required ballads. I am sure the same type of thing could be done for other classes as long as there is an effect (buff/debuff) applied to the character.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grampsaz
Personally, having played with my Mini for a while with this type of thing on the beta server, I did not find I liked it very much. I can't really explain why, it may just be I am so used to playing with my hotbars set a certain way that it is an adjustment thing.
I haven't played with the plug-in either, but I'm also very picky about my hotbars for both my minstrel and my lore-master. I have a scheme where certain kinds of skills are on certain bars. I am a keyboard + clicker so a purely click oriented interface doesn't appeal to me, and I'm not a fan of pop-ups.Quote:
Originally Posted by D.H1cks
I have watched a you-tube video gramps linked in the dps meter thread about the buff bars and I like the look of the plug-in. It looks well written and designed. I will likely use this, but probably only for displaying debuffs. I really hate having tons of pots and clickies on my main bars, even when I have room. When I get a debuff is the time I would rather have an icon pop up that allows me to pop a potion if my curative skill is still on cooldown.
FYI: the unannounced dev diary can be found here...
http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/devdia...-lua-scripting
.
YES!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by ScrappyTheGreat
It's getting released!!!
Thanks Scrappy!
I have a plugin finished that is very similar to this for Guards, Burgs, Champs and Captains. May be adding more classes. Right now my kin and I are bug testing it, but it should be available soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grampsaz
I don't know why people get their panties in such a wad when the subject of DPS/HPS/Threat Meters come up. They have so many valid uses that they far outweigh any possible PERCEIVED negative aspects. There's a reason why WoW has the best raiding experience out there for ACTUAL RAIDERS--that reason, in addition to great, well-thought-out content in general--is meters.
DPS Meters: If you're a DPS class and you don't give a rat's behind how much DPS you're putting out, YOU FAIL. It's really very simple. If your JOB is to provide DPS to a raid or to an instance group and you don't do that, it doesn't really matter whether you're a ****** player, haven't given any thought to your gear or traits, or you simply don't have a clue about your class or rotation--not only do you just suck, but you're negatively affecting the success of your group or raid. If I have 24 other people that I run with all the time and know exactly what they're capable of, and I know they don't suck, and one or more of them are unable to make a raid and we invite some new guys that nobody knows, myself, the other raid members, and the raid leader have the RIGHT and even an OBLIGATION to know what the new guys are doing. If I'm at the top of the dps meter and out of the 18 other dps, 14 are relatively close to me, those 14 are doing their jobs correctly. However, if the other 4 dps have 10% or less of my overall dmg/dps they are not only screaming "I don't have a clue what I'm doing!", they are hampering the ENTIRE group/raid's progress/success/enjoyment. Furthermore, they should never be invited back (unless it is established in the future that--according to the dps meter--they have improved). Having SOME idea of what people are capable of when it comes to DPS is NOT a bad thing, it's critically mandatory to the success of the group as a whole that that person's performance be judged and it be determined whether they obviously know what they are doing or obviously don't have a clue. Not having access to a dps meter means you don't really know if your raiding partners are beneficial to the raiding group as a whole or not. Not standing in pancakes is important, but putting out 5, 10, 20 percent of the dps that everyone else is putting out quite simply means you don't belong in that raid. END OF STORY.
A few of you have said roughly "dps/hps/threat meters makes the content so easy that the only options are to increase the difficulty or be bored". That is a bunch of bull and you know it... Good, quality players working together flawlessly and with great skill is what makes content easy. Not meters. Meters are tools that anyone COULD use but the people who get the best use out of them are the ones who spend hours practicing/refining their rotations based on DPS meter data which is easily/readily/quickly available right inside the game. AND they spend hours trying out different traits/skills/gear/buff combinations to squeeze out every last drop of DPS. AND they spend hours researching/studying boss fights/encounters so that they're not only prepared but downright GOOD when the fight happens. These players will ALWAYS be more successful than Joe Blow and Suzy Q EVEN WITHOUT meters because they quite simply--put the WORK in to get that way. Depriving anyone, and especially the good players who give a rip about the game and their abilities of this simple, easy to implement tool known as a DPS meter is utterly ludicrous even if the person wouldn't use it anyway.
HPS: It's simple. If you have 4 healers and 3 are within a few percentage points of each other and 1 has 10-20% of the other's heal output, that 1 person sucks. They don't know what they're doing. They aren't geared right. They don't know their class or their rotation. THEY DON'T BELONG IN THE RAID. They are severely hampering the overall success/enjoyment of the entire raid. They let people die which leads to wipes or really long fights which leads to people getting pissed off at each other and the game in general.
Another thing: a few have mentioned that some people "play to the meters" to look good or stroke their e-peen/ego. The bottom line is if you're DPS or Heals and you have a skill that removes a negative effect and you're in a fight that has that negative effect happening every so often and you DON'T USE YOUR SKILL that removes the effect at all, it doesn't matter one bit how much numbers you put on the board, you're not doing your job skillfully or effectively. That's why GOOD DPS meters not only track the actual numbers themselves but also skill usage frequency. Without that simple, easy to implement DPS meter, you have no idea if your fellow raiders are using their abilities in a manner that positively impacts the overall success of the raid or group... or not.
No, the fact is: without a good dps meter, we're all just bumbling idiots who THINK we know what we're doing when in truth we're all just guesstimating at our own abilities and the abilities of the others in the raid group. I would much rather have meters AND a challenging raid than have NO meters and an easy raid meant to be SO EASY that literally ANYONE regardless of skill can do it. Because the truth is, some people are NEVER going to be able to go into raids and be successful. And I for one would much rather eliminate those people from my raiding team. If i'm gonna spend hours a night raiding, I want to surround myself with competent, skilled players who care as much about the success of the group as I do. DPS Meters help tremendously towards that end. DPS/HPS meters separate the wheat from the chaff. And I'm not talking about one mage/loremaster who gets 0.37% more dps than another mage/loremaster--I'm talking about those people who literally get 5-20% or thereabouts of what everyone else is doing be it heals or dps. Those people exist in droves and I don't want to group with them. Not when I'm spending hours of my life, and tons of my own resources ingame to attend a raid for a SMALL CHANCE at obtaining an item that is going to make me put out more dps/heals thereby making me an even better player.
Now with all that said--here's why I don't like DPS meters: people who have a few aoe abilities and on a big aoe pull they happen to get a respectable amount of spike DPS and feel the uncontrollable urge to spam their meter in MY raid all the while completely oblivious of the fact that they're at the absolute bottom of the dps chart--even after the tanks. That is what is truly bad about DPS meters, those complete and utter bumbling idiots who don't have a clue what they're doing who see a big number pop up for a second and it makes them think they're 1337. In the wrong hands, any powerful tool can be utterly annoying and even dangerous; in the RIGHT hands that powerful tool is even more powerful and helps to craft a powerful player who can go into any raid and do their job well.
Threat: Accurately gauging one's own threat relative to the other members of the raid (namely tanks) is NEVER a bad thing. It's a hell of a lot better than pretending that you know how to manage your threat... pulling off the tank... and causing a wipe. Another wipe. And another. After all those wipes we're ALL pissed off at you or whoever's fault it is because we're collectively NOT there to fail. We're there to succeed and get phat lewtz.
This has been my rather lengthy assessment of why meters are NOT the great evil some of you purport them to be, they're actually an incredibly powerful/useful tool in learning more about yourself, your class, the game, and the many fights IN the game.
Let the flaming begin...
and the above post and the posters l33t name are exactly why we do not need that kinda bunk here.
thank you ever so much sir for proving our point for us.
bless you
:D
I'm going to say this one more time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darej
As long as someone is abiding by the EULA/ToS/CoC, they have the right to play this game any way they see fit, with or without others who share their interests. It doesn't matter whether that play style is making pies in the Shire, grouping up to just have fun in an instance, or yes, even feeling that winning/succeeding is the only way to have fun.
Nobody here has told you how you should play and you certainly have no right telling others how they should play. If you don't like that playstyle then the solution is simple. Don't group with them. Chances are they wouldn't want to group with you either.
uh..did you even read the post i was referring to?Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia
i was responding to his argument about why meters/gearscore should be allowed.
his whole post showed exactly why we do not want those kinda of things here.
its not a legitimate playstyle here since the mods dont exist.
so not really sure what you are getting on me about.
:D
Yes, actually I did read the post - and despite the wall of text it is, the poster makes a good point - for those who want to put winning first (actually, I'm not sure you did read that post, because the poster mentioned nothing of gearscore). Putting winning first is the playstyle. HPS/DPS meters are just tools to use to improve themselves, and make sure they've got the right group to do the job. Saying that this isn't a legitimate playstyle because these meters don't exist, is kinda like saying that collecting cosmetics wasn't a legitimate hobby until the wardrobe. Both statements are just as wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darej
People who raid/group for the explicit purpose of beating the instance, get their fun/enjoyment from doing just that. Anything less is simply unacceptable. Naturally they want more information to be able to take on the instance with the best group they can assemble - and such meters can be used to assist them with that goal.
Yes, the unending complaint will always be: "But that means they can judge other people and kick them if they don't perform well enough for them!" Yeah? So what? They make the group and they get to choose who stays or goes. If winning isn't the most important thing to you, then you probably wouldn't have been a good fit anyway - and should probably find a group that finds fun even in losing (which, from my experience is the majority of groups). If it is, and you're not performing well enough, then it's your responsibility to improve.
Everybody has the right to play the game the way they want to, and the right to request tools/features/options to make that playstyle more enjoyable to the individual. Just because one doesn't like that playstyle - doesn't mean that it's somehow illegitimate.
Edit: I apologize for the heavy dose of sarcasm, I don't mean to be offensive about it. However, it does irritate me when I see anybody of one playstyle demonize another's. It doesn't even matter if my playstyle happens to be the same as the one who's doing the demonizing. For the record - winning does not mean everything to me, and although I'd like to play around with a personal DPS meter to improve my rotation/performance, I would never require a group dps meter. That being said, I do not wish ill on anybody who does or wants to. Everybody here has the right to play this game the way they see fit, without anybody else telling them that they're not welcome here.
Please, kind sir, enlighten me as to what EXACTLY it is about my post that proves your point and proves why you don't need/want meters in LOTRO. Instead of using such a simple-minded blanket statement which says absolutely nothing, use examples and your communication skills to prove what EXACTLY it is about meters we don't need.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darej
Is it A: You don't enjoy grouping with quality players who know what they are doing and use every tool available to them to become a better player? Or is it B: You personally have never used any sort of meter and consequently have no idea how to use them to better your own performance. Or maybe it's C: You quite simply don't want others to know how poorly YOU are doing.
And as to my name, a name proves NOTHING in any sort of intelligent debate about any subject. My name here happens to be the same gaming handle i've used ever since Duke Nukem and I don't see that changing any time soon, nor do I see how it could possibly reflect in any way on the conversation at hand.
So please, kind sir, actually use your brain instead of saying "the above post proves why we don't need that bunk here" and come up with an actual statement of your own as to WHY we DON'T need meters in LOTRO or any other game where performance determines success. Until then... your point remains UNproven.
One wall-o-text deserves another I guess. :D
However would anyone get a negative perception?Quote:
Originally Posted by str8tschut3r
Oh, maybe that's how. ;) I suspect your post had the desired effect on many folks as you intended. Anyways, moving on...Quote:
Originally Posted by str8tschut3r
Okay, you almost had me agreeing with you, but then you argue against yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by str8tschut3r
Which is it? Are meters a requirement or not?Quote:
Originally Posted by str8tschut3r
I experienced that transition in WoW so I know it's not bull, and I suspect you know that as well. Look. I really could not care less if you had meters. I used them in WoW and I'd even use them in LOTRO if available. But I'd only welcome meters IF Turbine wouldn't increase instance difficulty based on the leet raiders complaining about "ez mode" instances. Unfortunately, Turbine already does that even without meters. It would only get worse with meters.Quote:
Originally Posted by str8tschut3r
You yourself write at length about how meters let the so-called "good" players refine their DPS/healing/whatever to such a degree that basically everyone is at the absolute peak and similar in performance. I agree with you. That will happen. The Devs themselves won't be able to put out more DPS or healing or whatever. I submit that will in fact result in trivializing content as it exists today. Turbine will soon hear the cries of "we beat the latest raid in a week!" and "no more care bear content!" They'll have no choice but to dial up difficulty (just as Blizzard did). That means the only folks who will capable of doing the content are those who:
- "spend hours practicing/refining their rotations based on DPS meter data"
- "spend hours trying out different traits/skills/gear/buff combinations to squeeze out every last drop of DPS"
- "spend hours researching/studying boss fights/encounters"
That's a lot of hours! In other words, the only folks who will capable of experiencing the content are the minority of the player base who have that kind of time. It's nearly there now.
I've been in LOTRO beta testing several times and I've been in raids testing new content on my main that I know very well. The instances aren't balanced for the average player. They just aren't. They're balanced to give leet raiders something to do for a while. Turbine has to do this or they'd be filleted alive.
Now, add in the meters. The leet raiders will get even more efficient (I know they will; we certainly did in WoW), they'll beat new content even quicker, and Turbine will have no choice but to further increase difficulty.
But listen to me. I don't want to nerf end game instances. Hardly! I've always advocated Turbine have a "quest mode" (with zero "phat lewtz"; just allow players to complete quests and deeds), "regular mode" (with decent loot), and a "hard mode" (with teh awesomest phat lewtz! that make "an even better player") for their raids and other large end game instances.
Give me a quest mode, then tweak that hard mode and make it insane. That way the leet raiders can have their glass chewing grind and their gear. Quest mode would allow other, average players to experience the story within those spaces. And why shouldn't they? They pay the same amount of money as the leet raiders. Should they be excluded because they aren't "Good, quality" "powerful" players "who give a rip about the game" (because everyone knows only leet raiders give a rip about the game), "are doing their jobs correctly" and "don't suck?"
Think about it. Of all the content in game, what content are you, the leet raider, excluded from? None. What content am I excluded from? Only the end game instances. (Please, let's not argue about how I could access that content if only I'd take the time, aka mortgage my life. I do NOT have that kind of time. Period.) A quest mode would allow everyone else to experience the content and the hard mode would allow you, the leet raider, to keep your challenge. Is that really too much to ask?
(Blizzard has apparently learned a lesson to some degree. I heard recently that they're using some tech to slowly increase a buff, something like LOTRO's Inspired Greatness I guess, within the top end game instance so the closer Cataclysm comes, the more likely it is that everyone will get to see that content before everything changes. Good move by Blizzard. It allows the leet raiders to have their brag and yet includes more and more paying customers as time goes by.)
To answer my own question above, yes, I believe it is too much to ask. Turbine doesn't seem interested in opening up their end game instances to their average players. So I don't think you have much to worry about. Turbine seems to be listening to you and not the rest of us. The end game instances have definitely been getting harder.
So I'm sure you'll get your meters eventually and the content will get even harder to compensate because you and your friends will have "tweaked" your outputs to the absolute theoretical max. And when you put your leet stats in your Bio (like some folks put their crit numbers in their Bio's today), I'll be sure to read it, be very impressed, then move on knowing that I'm actually enjoying the game instead of working a second job. ;)
I'll end with this. If Turbine posts and says "We're expanding Lua to allow meters (DPS/healing/threat/etc.) However, ALL beta testing conducted will have that aspect of Lua disabled (ripcorded). If raiders beat the content in a week when it goes Live, then so be it. We're not increasing the difficulty.", then I will join the campaign for meters. Until then, I hope Turbine avoids it. That's based on experience, not speculation or emotion.
@Thoroval
I agree totally with your idea of scalable difficulty. That way you get out of the game what you want to get out of it--and what you're willing to put into it. It would certainly allow all players to experience ALL content and remove the exclusivity factor. I for one would stand behind such a move on Turbine's part wholeheartedly, if it allowed me the chance to have the raiding experience I personally feel that I should be able to get from this game.
You yourself said that already the end game instances are getting harder. This is true. Any time you have a percentage of the player base that spends the majority of their time raiding end-game rather than "making pies in the Shire" the outcome is that percentage of players are of superior skill than the average player. Players of superior skill will ALWAYS be able to conquer content easier than those who possess either less skill or as you put it--less time to achieve that level of skill. So content shouldn't have one diffculty level that is "easy mode so everyone can do it no problem" but levels of difficulty with correspondingly increased loot quality.
There is nothing wrong with increasing difficulty when there are tiers of difficulty. The hardest modes will always be sought after by the best raiders and the easiest modes will always be sought by those not willing or able to put in the time to become a "l33t raider". There is nothing wrong with that setup at all. That way everyone gets out of the game what they want to get out of it.
As for my comment "without meters we're all just bumbling idiots" well that was written with a hefty dose of sarcasm which I realize doesn't translate well at all into text.
And for the record: I'm not trying to be such an elitist jerk that if you aren't within 0.001% of the best dpser then you can't raid. Quite the contrary--I'm trying to reach a point where myself and other raiders possess the tools to eliminate those players that literally don't know how to play their class as represented by their 20% or less dps output as compared to everyone else. If you've ever been part of a raid team and had even a few of those people in your group and wiped constantly as a result you can certainly understand my own frustration and the frustration of others put in the same position.
I don't mind wiping. I don't mind dying. I don't mind losing. As long as everyone knows what they're doing and has put in the work. It's when there are tons of players that don't understand the game well enough to be raiding that I get infinitely irritated and frustrated. If I'm going to raid, I want to raid with actual raiders or at least good enough players that the content is possible at the very least. I've been in too many fail-raids over the years to want to be in more of them. However, if I do find myself in a fail-raid I still give it my all and do the best that I can possibly do; if enough of the raid does that sometimes you still win. More often than not though--you don't.
I realize perfectly well that many of you HATE the way I feel and the points I have made because good raiders and good raiding mechanics are often points of contention for the average player. However, myself and the others like me should not be left out in the cold simply because there are more people that DON'T want to raid or raid well.
Dang... I just wanted to see which one of my weapons were behaving better in a few different circumstances without trying to add it up all in my head and come up with my own gestimated avg's... after reading this thread, guess there will not be one of these coming any time soon. Sigh....
There are several threads discussing meters and other raid addons. The vast majority of people posting in those threads oppose meters for a myriad of reasons set forth in those threads.
There isn't anything in this thread, but forum posters arguing on the internet, to indicate Lua functionality won't be expanded eventually. It's hard to say if Turbine will provide advanced combat data, but they are pretty innovative. I'm sure we'll see more stuff that adds to the game. It's just hard to say what that will encompass. They are a little tight lipped when it comes to those things.Quote:
Originally Posted by miloatlantic1
Quote:
Originally Posted by str8tschut3r
Quote:
Originally Posted by str8tschut3r
First, I believe he was pointing out that your attitude is exactly the reason many of us do not want meters in LOTRO. Your comments give a blueprint as to how an epeen measuring stick (like a group dps meter) will be misused.
Also, you seem to believe that quality players would use group dps meters. You seem to think that the best raiders need group dps meters. That is simply not true. Quality players and high end raiders realize that meters do not show what is necessary for success. As was pointed out by a quality player / high end raider:
Quote:
Originally Posted by nirsul
Group dps meters matter most to epeening lewt dudes ... those who want to embarrass people, and tell them they "suck" or are a "fail" or "don't belong" or are "utter bumbling idiots" ... those who try to impress everyone with their meaningless high dps scores. That behavior harms the community and should not be encouraged.
@Bradd
So you're telling me that you want to group with people that don't know how to play their class, don't read up on fights, and put out immensely poor DPS or HPS? You must have never grouped with people that put out pitiful dps or heals and let people die or they die themselves thereby making the fight much harder and longer than it should have been.
If you truly want to group with people like that then more power to you, but denying others of the opportunity to gauge another's performance is wrong. Especially since performance determines success.
FTFY...Quote:
Originally Posted by str8tschut3r
excluding someone from a group based on your judgement on whether or not they are worthy...is morally and socially wrong.
also in lotro....putting out maximum possible heals/dps/threat does not always = success.
i have done things with PUGS that organized exclusive judgmental (oh you dont have the virtue slotted..FAIL..kick) groups could not.
teamwork > performance rating any day of the week.
:D
Quote:
Originally Posted by str8tschut3r
Meters do very little to make you a better player (and sometimes make you a worse player), and at the same time cause some people to be jerks ... telling others that they "suck" or are a "fail" or "don't belong" or are "utter bumbling idiots".
To answer your question directly, I prefer to play with people who know how to play their class, learn the encounters, and at the same time are decent people to be around. In other words, I prefer the members of my group to be good players and good people. In all honesty, if forced to make a choice, I would prefer to group with someone still learning his class, than a pompous epeening jerk.
In regard to player ability, people who worry about the meters will often neglect the non-DPS aspects of their class, spam AOEs when not appropriate, and/or neglect controling their aggro - in order to top the meter (or appease some jerk who is obsessed with the meter results). This leads to poorer play in general. As Nirsul indicated, "meters aren't used by nor will they be abused by "hardcores" or the top raiders. We don't need them ... let's be real: trying to get a global max DPS (which is what meters mainly measure) is the sign of a wannabe, since real top raiders know that you want controlled situational DPS (high at some times, restrained at others, and so on). Adaptive thinking/play is the sign of a top player in general, and how exactly a meter encourages that in anyway shape or form for most people has not been explained here..."
The best players do not need meters and understand how little they actually show. Meters are not a good method to judge the quality of the player. If you judge people by their dps meter output, it is a reflection on your knowledge, not their ability.
Are you telling me you've never kicked anyone from a group because they didn't work well in the group?Quote:
Originally Posted by Darej
kicking someone because they dont work well with the group is NOT the same as kicking someone because their gearscore or heal/dps/threat stats dont meet up to some arbitrary standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by FyreBrand
besides the only time ive ever kicked someone was because they were not courteous.
i have always helped those willing to learn.
also i would never be part of a kin who did otherwise.
nor would i ever associate with anyone so rude.
:D
You didn't say anything about gear score, you said whether they were worthy or not. If you kick someone they're not worthy of being in your group, for whatever subjective reason you decide qualifies. If someone is performing well or not is subjective, as is being courteous, as is traiting properly, as is teamwork, and so many other things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darej
I do understand your point and I've mostly always started with a competent core group when I pug that brings in extras. Usually this means even incompetent players are 'good' enough to complete the quest or instance. However, I also know what it's like to have too many people that can't do what it takes to finish.
There isn't anything immoral about having to kick someone because they aren't fitting well. It's just immoral if people are mean about how they do it. I usually feel bad when someone is kicked and I'm sure I would feel like hell if I got kicked for being a detriment to the group, but it's not necessarily a bad thing. I want the group to succeed and have a good time. If a player isn't a fit for the group then that isn't as likely to happen.
I don't think there is anything wrong with some play style groups that want minimum dps, radiance, gear score, trait set, virtue set, and not wanting to play with people who don't fit that criteria. They should be allowed to play the way they want. I would likely get kicked from a group like that, which is fine, because that isn't how I like to play. I probably wouldn't keep someone in the group who made a big deal out of that either.
I'm very confident in the development team's ability to add greater functionality to the game, through Lua scripting, in a way that makes the game more fun. Look at what they've added so far. There is some really good stuff right now.
did you not read the post i was responding to?Quote:
Originally Posted by FyreBrand
the worthy or not bit was lifted from what i had quoted
that person was the one saying using addons allows one to judge another player based on a number....and he also said not allowing folks the ability to use such things to exclude other players was wrong.
i was responding to him saying that judging folks based on that was morally and socially wrong.
it has nothing to do with playstyle....it has to do with turning folks away just becuase they dont fit into your ideal.
if someone is missing something they might need...or is maybe traited wrong for what you are about to do...explain to them why..and ask them to fix it.
dont just kick them because they do not fit.
if over the course of an instance you notice a player is not performing up to par...take a moment to help them..dont berate them for being fail and kick them.
the great thing about lotro...is that every class is multi-dimensional...they are not one-trick-ponies..they can adapt to many situations...fill more then one role.
a good player knows this and can play their class regardless of situation..
a good player also knows weakness/strengths of other classes....
a great player imbues that knowledge on others who are in need of it.
:D
I am not quite as confident. I am afraid we may be seeing the first step down a dangerous path, (as nirsul said) ... "thanks in part to a coder doing what coders usually do: deciding to unilaterally "fix" the things he found problematic about the UI, with absolutely no thought to the unintended consequences of his "fix"."Quote:
Originally Posted by FyreBrand
Hopefully, the Devs, that are so enamored with Addons, will stop and think about the consequences of additional functionality to both the game and the community. My fear is that they are having so much fun playing with their new toys, that they may not.
I did read the post you replied to and I think he's on a similar page as Arato; that is they have a more narrow and strict definition of what will or won't work for them and want to use combat tools to help make that clearer. I don't necessarily agree that is a good approach, or an approach I would be interested in, but I do think they have every right to play that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darej
My point is that we all have criteria we base group selection on. We all have criteria we boot group players for. If we're going to be totally fair we would have an in game auto-selection process for grouping and would never be able to choose our groups, and we would only be able to leave them, not boot players. That isn't realistic, but hopefully illustrates my point that we all like to choose who we group with for whatever reasons. We may consider their reasons juvenile (and that is a valid opinion), but they can indulge in them if they want.
More importantly there are reasons to have these tools available to all play styles whether or not some people will use it as a filter. I can think of group instances and quests I've been in where I haven't been on my "A" game and have wondered why. I've been in places where I've had aggro or couldn't grab aggro and wondered why. I've been in situations where I've wondered how much more or less effective a certain build is compared to another I use.
It's possible some of these tools could make some content easier, and I'm sure Turbine considers that when implementing their scripting API. In fact I'm sure of it because they can kill scripts dynamically without having to perform a server reboot.
People should be allowed to play how they like with whom they like as long as it is within the CoC/ToS/EULA.
I disagree with the way the leet raiders determine "worth" and thus who is "worthy" to be in their group, but I totally agree with you that they have the right to play that way. Removing their right to play the way they want would simply be removing my right to play the way I want.Quote:
Originally Posted by FyreBrand
However, I submit to you that the way I want to play has already been impacted by the leet raiders (aka min/maxers). Even str8tschut3r agreed with me that instance difficulty is increasing and that it's a natural side effect of the "players... of superior skill" burning through content more quickly. Meters will very likely result in further increases in instance difficulty (it certainly did in WoW; more on that below) as Turbine tries to maintain a certain challenge threshold for those leet raiders. This leaves the average player out in the cold and there's absolutely no hope for the below average performer.
(Btw, "below average" could be caused by a host of things from lack of time, resources, reflexes, experience, knowledge, practice, stable net connection i.e. satellite broadband, etc. None of these things makes that person of any less worth than anyone else. I've never booted a single player from any group I've been in charge of regardless of how bad they performed. In fact, the vast majority of the time I've successfully worked with the group in finding innovative solutions to beating the content even with the handicap.)
It's possible some of these tools could make some content easier? Based on my WoW raiding experience, I say bet on it. And that's really at the heart of my warnings regarding meters.Quote:
Originally Posted by FyreBrand
Let's say the Lua devs add support for meters and for the sake of this discussion let's even say those same Lua devs fully understand the impact meters could have. That's not enough. The instance devs must also be on board because in very short order those instance devs will start seeing their content being beat faster than ever (they can pull stats for that stuff).
That's exactly what happened in WoW when mages (my main over there) using DPS and Threat meters could crank out insanely high sustained DPS to within a tiny fraction of a percent of the tank's threat (it was so tight that I remember that our tank would need to call out "taunt resist" to ensure that our next damage spell didn't send us over the top to #1 in threat). The same type of thing happened with priests/tree druids with healing/threat meters. Every class was impacted. Just like Blizzard, Turbine instance devs will need to dial up the difficulty even further to stay ahead of these min/maxers.
Turbine as a development team must come up with a team-wide approach if they introduce support for meters. I've previously suggested a means to that end that let's everyone have access or challenge, whichever they desire.
In case it was missed, here is my suggestion (with expanded explanations):
- Quest mode - Not overly challenging. Average players can defeat the content in one go with a minimum of deaths. Primarily used to complete quests, deeds, get housing trophies, etc. No loot of any special significance to include nothing that would give access to radiance gear.
- Normal mode - Similar in difficulty to Uru/CD back in the old days (which would mean some current instances would need to be dialed back a bit). Normal access to gear like radiance barter items, but nothing that stands above and beyond other loot in game.
- Hard mode - Not like current hard or challenge modes. These would be insanely difficult, but the rewards would be worth it. I'm talking unique orange gear here.
But as I've said before, Turbine doesn't appear interested in listening to the rest of us. They continue to ratchet up end game instance difficulty to the point that my core group of 3 players (minstrel, guardian, and hunter started over 3 years ago) that have leveled together since level 1 will likely not complete the newest 3 man spaces (warg pens, etc.) in Mirkwood until we've outleveled it by 5 or more levels.
How do I know this? Because it was only recently after reaching 65 that we were finally able to complete Hall of Mirrors and Waterwheels in Moria. And that was with multiple wipes and did not include the final bosses or hard modes. That's pretty sad considering that we know how to play together so well that there's hardly ever any reason to situationally call out which FM to build, who should do what when things go south, etc. We're just not min/maxers and we're penalized for that playstyle decision.
I also have previously agreed that Turbine will eventually support meters, but I seriously doubt they'll implement my "tiered difficulty" solution or any other solution that gives the "less than leet" access to all the content (note: "content" = instance spaces/encounters/story and != gear). The rest of us just happen to pay the same amount of money as the leet raiders for access to that content.
Just wanted to chime in on "meters"...
Seeing as the community here has raided for the past three and a half years successfully, 12-manned Thorog (24-man raid) and 5-manned Thaurlach (12-man raid) on-level, both pre-Moria, and actually defeated the Blind-One on "hard mode" on-level pre-Mirkwood (an extreme challenge, triggered by going straight to the fight after the troll bosses without defeating the three other bosses afterwards), all without any meters... just how will such tools improve players? I fail to see any possible significant improvements...
Also, the most important thing in LOTRO is not to be "the best", but to have fun. Meters may appear to make things more fun in a way, but the only place where it may be genuine fun is within the appropiate player groups (and even then only when used responsibly). If there is something which makes things fun for one player but at the same time directly decreases how much fun another player is having (ie. misuse of a meter), such a thing should not be permitted ingame.
Another thing... in a recent dev chat earlier this month, it was clearly stated that they (the devs) did not want any plugins which would "trivialize" the content they create. Threat meters happen to do just that... so don't expect to see that kind of meter any time soon.
Keep in mind that there's a big difference between supporting HPS/DPS meters, ant threat meters - based off of nothing more than what we've seen pre-Lua. In game, we have a display of numbers for healing/damage - but threat itself has never been given a number at all. It's a completely hidden system that is, at best, described in terms such as "high" and "moderate".Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoroval
This is important to note, because DPS/HPS meters will not trivialize content - but giving numbers to something that has been previously only viewed in abstract terms, and making that visible to the player would certainly do so.
Technically, we can see our own damage/healing numbers - no one else's. So a personal meter would show us the information we already have access to. Group meters would show information we do not have access to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Utopia
I'm talking about information that's available to a player, as opposed to information only available to the game itself. The former wouldn't result in any trivialization of content, while the later has a much greater chance of doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradd
I take it the Mailblaster plugin was never created? Sounds like a nice one, but haven't found it anywhere. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Chazcon
Basically all plugins created can be found on lotrointerface.com. None of the three mentioned (admittedly ambitious) plugins were created - simply because the API does not allow for that kind of functinality. There is SortBag that can arrange items in your bags, and a sort function in HugeBag, but both do not do this directly when looting.Quote:
Originally Posted by arathornv
EDIT: I was fooled by the Dec 25th date... Should have looked at the year before necroing this thread :-)