An Update: On Upcoming Changes to Hunters

I've been playing since before release, and was an avid Beta Tester for the game. There, i've now thrown my completely worthless credentials down. ((Because everyone knows how long it took for them to fix Fleetness with all of us crying about it.))

Do- Not - Change - Hunters - Again. Let me see if I have this straight. You're telling me, that what you want to do is completely destroy our secondary (Even if it is minor) role as CC, make Bowmaster the trait line everyone uses (Even though horrible Hunters only know Bowmaster anyways) and minimalize the heightened steady DPS of Huntsman in order to make them (Possibly?) more solo friendly.

I still don't agree with the raid changes to Purge Poison, because honestly in four years of play I could give less than a ???? about Raid roles. As far as i'm concerned raiding is still broken. We're forced to trait out of Agility, for Vitality and Resistances, just to alleviate the work the Healers have to perform. So we're still not focusing on what we should be focusing on, which is dealing damage and helping the Burg's and Lore-Masters keep encounters manageable.

Trapper of Foes is like that trait line folks with a foreward thinking mind wanted, but we never had a dev bold enough to tell the LM's and Burgs to share the play ground with. It could STILL be an amazing CC Line. Turn Explosive Arrow into Explosive Arrows, creating a 3 target AoE daze that is sustainable if you're 5 Traits in. (Adjustable with Legacies.) Keep the AoE Purge Poison, (I may find a use for it... someday. Other than using it to remove Poisons in School and Library.) Add a Fear such as what the War Cry Gambit on Wardens possess' at the moment in for animal's.

Huntsman should remain as it is, with perhaps a change in how Strength of Earth works. I've still never found the Morale regen to be useful, especially now that the channel is about worthless. Make it a Heal Over Time Pulse instead of an ICMR. It isn't that tough to balance it without creating a longer cool down. This could help in a lot of situations, (Maybe even ranged tanking situations for raiders.) Especially if you throw it on the Resolute Aim protection for Inductions if you're traited 4+.

Bowmaster should still levy heavy penalties. Keep it tied to Strength Stance. That's why the Stance was backed up, with being a part of the line. Just like the other two are.

If Huntsman and Trapper of Foes are ruined to force players to use Bowmaster, I will be hanging up my Hunter after 4 years of an up and down relationship to focus on my Warden. Being forced to be a mindless face rolling Bowmaster player isn't my idea of a challenging or fun class.

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Originally Posted by CWood

Depends on how you look at it, I guess.

[snip]

Interested
[snip - total 5]

Neutral
[snip - total 6]

Dubious
[snip - total 11]

Opposed
[snip - total 9]

That's 9:22 that are actually opposed to the changes, or roughly 1:7. Even if you count the ones that are dubious as being opposed, it'd still only be 20:11, or 2:1. That's a far cry from 19:1.

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Yah, it absolutely does depend on how you count it. For instance, you weakened the negative reaction by dividing it into two groups, dubious and opposed ... then you strengthened the favorable response by including neutrals (it is not true here that 'not opposed therefore equals in favor'). So, even with your categorization, it really comes out at 11+9 against 5, or 20:5 --> 4:1 unfavorable. Still widespread disfavor among those who took a position.

Let's face it, ZC threw out VERY little information...just three short phrases. Most of us would truly put ourselves in the "wait and see" group because of the total lack of detail. But ZC didn't throw these 3 phrases out to get zero feedback...he was looking for responses. As I thought through this, I considered an analogous conversation, like this:

ZC: blue
Us: wait and see
ZC: deep blue
Us: wait and see
ZC: deep metallic blue
Us: wait and see
ZC: deep metallic blue with fins
Us: wait and see
ZC: deep metallic blue with fins, chrome bumpers and wheel well trim
Us: NO NO NO, we don't like blue, we wanted red, we hate chrome, and fins are so 1953!
ZC: *frazzle razzle*

Even if he's giving very little info, ZC is looking for a response. So, responses make sense. So far, the forum community response to the idea of more melee is strongly blech.

I said alot more than blech, but it would be the appropriate translation.

Thank you for letting us know whats going on, ZC.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.

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Finally :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.

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First i was like: "Woahohoho.. dont touch my loved Huntsmenline and morph it to a Melee-Hybrid-Whatever."
Then i startet to think about this idea and i realised that this change could be be what i always wanted for this class.

Huntsmen, for example, as a range tanking line is an awesome idea.
But only if Bowmaster Hunters got the choice of being a slow, high hitting damgedealer oder a swift, not as high hitting one (maybe through crossbow and bow, then theres a significant differnce between this 2 weapons).

I know that i could do more damage in Bowmaster but i simply don't use it because its to slow for my demands.
And that bugs me. I can't claim the highest possible DPS (Bowmaster) and get this swift felling (Huntsmen) at the same time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

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If im honest this confused me. Trapper of Foes brings barely CC to the Table.
I hoped that Bards Arrow finally becomes a normal Skill.
Because the Minstrel, as a no CC class, got a better Bards Arrow as we do.

But i'm curious what you've planed for our class.
You have truly earned my trust through the last Hunterupdate.
Can't wait for more information on that topic.

I am all for a Bow and Blade Warrior. I have always thought it was silly to be shooting my bow at something that is 2 feet away. If they can give Hunters 3 solid options for playing styles I don't see why anyone would complain. Unless they want to control how other people play their class for some odd reason.

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Originally Posted by Lothran

@ZC: I actually believe most of those in all three categories I tried to shove them in are actually willing to wait and see to some extent, but we're a somewhat battered and bruised lot from all the sharp turns the Turbine bus has made in the past with this (and other) classes, and so we're a bit skittish. With some really nice suggestions (and a few crackpot ideas) in the thread of ways we REALLY think you could improve the class, there's definitely room to do something here. Just hoping it does not include anything to do with shifting the class within melee range of the enemy, even if just in one of our 3 trait lines. Best to you!

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this basically sums it up... I'm not in opposition to improvements or changes... I'm in opposition to doing it again and again and again in so short a time period. Though I am not a fan of the melee/ranged hybrid idea for this class... that's something a class like the Ranger should be if they ever decide to add more classes, and is something I would like alot... just not for the Hunter.

to be honest... the phrase "bow and blade" makes me think of melee/ranged combos... and some of the update2 changes add to that thoughline:

heart of the bard: combo with bard arrow bleed.
alternate OD set bonus: HS or SB remove induction for next barbed arrow

and then there is the pre-update 2 stuff:

swift stroke + agile rejoinder combo
barbed arrow + scourging blow combo

if the "bow and blade" combos were more potent, they could work... if there were more combos, it could work... if more melee skills added focus, it could work... if a melee combo skill was a focus attack, it could work. if melee skills do more damage so i don't have to lose DPS just because i'm in melee, it could work.

toss me in the "wait and see" bordering on "interested" camp...

yes, i'm optimistic... partly because of update2...

and i am one who really wants bowmaster divorced from S:S... we should be free to choose a stance based on the stances' inherent benefits/drawbacks... not based on how deep down a traitline we invest... because NOT investing deep down the OTHER traitlines makes the OTHER stances useless...

and i also think that bowmaster is not worth retraiting capstone for solo content because huntsman provides just as many kills almost as quickly... but that's just me i suppose. /shrug

Just a random lunch-time idea: what if Scourging Blow could have different additional effects (traited) when consuming the BA bleed, based on the current active stance?

Strength: Roots the target for 4s (useful for PVP and leveling I guess)
Precision: Gives 1 focus, or maybe applies a self-buff for... 8s that reduces focus cost by 1
Endurance: Further reduces aggro by xyz amount and/ or returns xyz amount of power

Could be a new trait called "Barbed Scourge" ~
It could replace a current HM trait, so that each trait line has a "Barbed something" trait in line, just for symmetry. Or it could even be the new HM legendary trait.

So long as I never hear the phrase -hunter tanking- ever again, I really could care less how the class is changed.

I've seen some good points being made by people who don't mind us going hybrid ranged/melee. I understand that making skills that have been mostly useless since .. (well since the start) should be changed so they get use except for some parry buff. I don't really see the need in changing our traitlines so that they may become useful. If our melee skills would be seriously buffed on the damage side I don't really see how that would make us too strong.

The main problem I have with melee is that there are only a few situations that I want to be in melee (esp. in raids). When I hear ranged/melee traitline I hear solo/pvp play. I enjoy raiding the most out of the time I spend in lotro and in OD hunters can't really take the damage that bosses do when standing around them. So my main fear is that I will loose a traitline I love using in raids.

I've said it in my previous post and Ill say it again. If ToF line would be buffed on "everything else" I think this is a perfect opportunity to buff melee and not ranged. Instead of giving us better/good dps I think this traitline should give some nice utility on our melee skills. Let the hunters debuff some mobs or buff fellow players with melee skills. Fighting other mobs in the vincinity of our chain stunned mobs adds a risk that if they get broken free we may be taking some hits. We are forced to NOT stay max ranged of our CC'd mobs if we want to melee others. I think this can make gameplay more interesting when traiting ToF.

The argument that while other classes traitlines differ a lot on ways of dps and our blue and red don't is incorrect and I don't mind that S:S is linked to the red traitline. I like that the red traitline is our barbarian playstyle. We don't care who we piss off and don't mind our power consumption and this fits strength stance perfectly. In this stance we get way more agro problems so maybe it would be more logical to add some better melee skills to this line since they will be close to us anyway (but no real need for it tbh).

The blue traitline (and it may not have been intended like this when the game got released but MMOs evolved dont they :P) is the hunter that stays back, doesn't want to draw extra attention on himself. He picks off his targets quietly and with precision. I think ZC should build upon the speed, threat and possibly on moving while dps'ing in this traitline. I'm not talking about letting us kite but letting us do our skills while moving at -50% speed (-50% speed would only apply if we were doing a skill ofc) would be fun (think poison OD and many other fights require us to move around a bit the whole time).

ZC should not change the blue traitline because it was intended to have some melee when they started with LOTRO. Hunters have been on a bad raiding spot since we got nerfed with Moria and with the last updated this has been improved a bit. I'll wait and see what ZC has for ideas but don't nerf our raiding capabilities again..

since we're on the idea of class revision:

how about new passive skills over 50?

~increased cap for crit chance... (or B/P/E for defensive classes)
~buffs for stances through passive skills...
~reduced inductions through passive skills... (i think this one particularly should be considered, as we have much more experience wielding our bows, so should be able to fire off arrows more quickly than when we were novices)
~reduced focus costs...
~increased melee/ranged offense (or healing for certain classes) rating through passive skills...
~incoming healing rating
~in combat power/morale regen

just brainstorming here... but the passives of course would be class specific, with maybe a few generic ones for all classes (like the offense/healing rating)

Whatever you do, please make sure that a hunter can compete with other damage dealers.

With the upcoming changes for Champs and the past changes for Burgs (not to forget about RKs either), it is time to step damage up a few notches...!

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Originally Posted by Skofield

Whatever you do, please make sure that a hunter can compete with other damage dealers.

With the upcoming changes for Champs and the past changes for Burgs (not to forget about RKs either), it is time to step damage up a few notches...!

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This sums it up. I do NOT want to become a hybrid range/melee/utility. Fail wardens can do that. I want to have 1 role, ranged DPS, and I want my class to live up to its 'nuker' description.

Guess I gotta reserve judgment until I see the actual changes, but I have to say, I'm worried. Hunters are in a better place now than they've EVER been in the history of the game. Red & blue lines are both great for different things. Strength & Precision are balanced perfectly. There are more good traits than there are slots (a good problem). There are multiple ways to trait. We have more useful skills in the rotation now that Barbed Arrow was improved, Blood Arrow added, and Merciful Shot & Heartseeker both rendered viable as part of a regular DPS rotation if appropriately traited.

I'm not usually one to be afraid of changes, but this has me worried. Improvement is welcomed, but endless tinkering for the sake of endless tinkering is a slippery slope.

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Originally Posted by Aestis25

Guess I gotta reserve judgment until I see the actual changes, but I have to say, I'm worried. Hunters are in a better place now than they've EVER been in the history of the game. Red & blue lines are both great for different things. Strength & Precision are balanced perfectly. There are more good traits than there are slots (a good problem). There are multiple ways to trait. We have more useful skills in the rotation now that Barbed Arrow was improved, Blood Arrow added, and Merciful Shot & Heartseeker both rendered viable as part of a regular DPS rotation if appropriately traited.

I'm not usually one to be afraid of changes, but this has me worried. Improvement is welcomed, but endless tinkering for the sake of endless tinkering is a slippery slope.

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+1

./10char

::cracks knuckles::

First off, to the "but we just got updated!" people. Rumblings in other class forums may have begun to tip you off that more then just the Hunter is getting some work. We haven't made global announcements yet, but I think it may be fairly clear where this is going. Also, it will be some months before anything I've teased here hits game.

Next, I want to give a big thankyou to the whole Hunter community here. The debate and discussion has been very helpful! I very much wanted to just throw some chum in the water and see what happened. While I didn't know exactly what to expect, I'm glad for what I did get.

So, keeping in mind that we are still not out of the planning phase for the changes, here is a little more about where my head is at.

Bowmaster: My main goal is to remove the strong tie to Strength Stance. This does not mean nerfs, only that the buffs Bowmaster bestows onto S:S will apply regardless of stance. This change indicates a general shift in the stance design on the class. All stance altering traits and set bonuses will be repurposed and their buffs will be redistributed. My intention is to allow Hunters of all traitlines the ability to change stance based on circumstances. As part of this, I'll be changing the stances around to ensure each of them is better at what they do well. Besides that the Bowmaster will be very close to what it is now.

Huntsman: While I knew that bringing up melee would pique peoples curiosity, I admit to being taken aback by how much negativity it generated. Legolas quickly dispatching enemies at range and in melee is the archtype the class was built on and one that many still identify with. A monthly update was not enough time to make the kind that would bring the Huntsman up to a Legolas standard, but an expansion is. Before I say anymore, yes, I understand that Hunters do not use melee much. I believe that this is more because that there is little reason or benefit, not because it isn't exciting to switch between melee and ranged combat during a fight. However, it seems I did my job too well in the last update, many are rather fond of the state the Huntsman is in and do not want it changed. Such feedback has effected me, and I'm backing off from making the Huntsman a melee/ranged hybrid. Instead, minor edits like Bowmaster will be made, mainly removing traits that effect specific stances.
That said, here are some details for what I was planning for the line: All melee skills grant focus, ranged skills increase melee damage while melee skills increase ranged damage (with applications/removals to encourage switching between ranged and melee at some kind of tempo - 10 seconds ranged buffed, 10 seconds melee buffed), extending Fleetness to buff melee, make quickshot usable while moving (ie: no induction). Basically, allow the class to fluidly swap between melee and ranged and gain benefits for doing so, while giving it even more mobility and induction-less attacks.

Trapper of Foes: "But you just made it awesome, don't nerf it!" Don't worry, I'm not changing Trapper to nerf it. When the last update hit, a lot of feedback on the line was focused on the damage reduction still being unappreciated, and penshot still not being what people hoped for. I intend on changing both of those. Further, the realities of endgame are that CC is often negated by boss mechanics, making a class that CC's focus on support through debuffs, buffs or restoration. The trapper will trade some of his straight CC for more generally applicable support abilities. Lastly, I'm going to try to add new trap mechanics in that make the Trapper more about traps!

I think that's the important stuff. I'm going to be out for two weeks after this, so don't expect any more info any time soon. Please do continue discussing things, talking about what you want and don't want, and focus on examples, not hyperbole :)

GL, HF!

I still think it is silly to be firing off bow shots at melee range. Especially ones that have a long induction time. You would be helpless to fend off attacks while doing this sort of thing. That's why Legolas switched to melee weapons in the first place.

I would not advise changing your original thoughts due to some vocal folks on the forum. That is a bad precedent.

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Huntsman: ...
That said, here are some details for what I was planning for the line: All melee skills grant focus, ranged skills increase melee damage while melee skills increase ranged damage (with applications/removals to encourage switching between ranged and melee at some kind of tempo - 10 seconds ranged buffed, 10 seconds melee buffed), extending Fleetness to buff melee, make quickshot usable while moving (ie: no induction). Basically, allow the class to fluidly swap between melee and ranged and gain benefits for doing so, while giving it even more mobility and induction-less attacks.

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hmm, that might actually make melee useful... adding focus and +ranged dmg. could be interesting with Resolute Aim and Needful Haste to help with inductions

interesting

We should have a stance that allows us to hit hard from range. This should be the stance that hunters would use at most times. We are primarily a ranged class. When in this stance we should receive a damage bonus to ranged skills and be able to compete against other damage dealers. We are primarily a damage dealing class.

Another stance should be a melee stance. It would improve our melee damage. Once we are forced into melee combat, we would gain a benefit from switching to this stance, i.e. once in melee range, this stance should be the one that is most efficient. Overall the damage output should be lower than what we deal while using the "ranged" stance, so hunters would have an incentive to stay at range.

The last stance should be a hybrid stance. It would deal slightly less damage than the "ranged" stance, but slightly more than the "melee" stance.

If hunters have the choice, they should always stay at range. This is what we are. If for some reason we are force into melee combat, then switching to a more appropriate stance would be the best option. Then of course there would be encounters where our opponents would go in and out of melee range. For these encounters the hybrid stance should be most efficient.

And as you already had in mind, untie the stances from the traitlines. They should not have anything to do with it. I believe the traitlines are almost where they should be. We need one that deals damage in a "slow" manner (longer inductions, higher damage per skill), one that gives you more flexibility (shorter inductions, lower damage per skill) and one that lets us CC and support group play (remove poison). And please do remove the focus loss penalty for movement.

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

My main goal is to remove the strong tie to Strength Stance. This does not mean nerfs, only that the buffs Bowmaster bestows onto S:S will apply regardless of stance. This change indicates a general shift in the stance design on the class. All stance altering traits and set bonuses will be repurposed and their buffs will be redistributed. My intention is to allow Hunters of all traitlines the ability to change stance based on circumstances. As part of this, I'll be changing the stances around to ensure each of them is better at what they do well.

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Will be interesting to see what you have planned for Precision Stance in this regard, since currently most of it's value is in the buffs it gets from Huntsman traits.

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

That said, here are some details for what I was planning for the line: All melee skills grant focus, ranged skills increase melee damage while melee skills increase ranged damage (with applications/removals to encourage switching between ranged and melee at some kind of tempo - 10 seconds ranged buffed, 10 seconds melee buffed), extending Fleetness to buff melee, make quickshot usable while moving (ie: no induction). Basically, allow the class to fluidly swap between melee and ranged and gain benefits for doing so, while giving it even more mobility and induction-less attacks.

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Gotta admit, this is interesting, and perhaps I was too hyperbolic- afterall this is al buffs- nothing but upside. Nonetheless, as a non-Moors / primarily PvE raid player, I think the melee buffs are largely wasted on me. I would probably use the change to get inside to generate focus (even more burn) but the real guys that need the melee buffs are the PvP guys, which I usually see running deep into the red line.

I suspect this would have offered up enough different playstyle options to allow really good hunters to further distance themselves from bad ones. Added complexity does that.

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

That said, here are some details for what I was planning for the line: All melee skills grant focus, ranged skills increase melee damage while melee skills increase ranged damage (with applications/removals to encourage switching between ranged and melee at some kind of tempo - 10 seconds ranged buffed, 10 seconds melee buffed), extending Fleetness to buff melee, make quickshot usable while moving (ie: no induction). Basically, allow the class to fluidly swap between melee and ranged and gain benefits for doing so, while giving it even more mobility and induction-less attacks.

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I will confess I haven't read the first 7 pages, but this sounds great to me, very interesting indeed! I've felt for a while the Hunter is a pretty two dimensional class (simple ranged skills and c/c) but bringing a melee component in and mixing things up as you describe could mean a whole new approach and play style. Hopefully you can find a middle ground there somewhere if it's really met the opposition you indicate.

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

::cracks knuckles::

First off, to the "but we just got updated!" people. Rumblings in other class forums may have begun to tip you off that more then just the Hunter is getting some work. We haven't made global announcements yet, but I think it may be fairly clear where this is going. Also, it will be some months before anything I've teased here hits game.

Next, I want to give a big thankyou to the whole Hunter community here. The debate and discussion has been very helpful! I very much wanted to just throw some chum in the water and see what happened. While I didn't know exactly what to expect, I'm glad for what I did get.

So, keeping in mind that we are still not out of the planning phase for the changes, here is a little more about where my head is at.

Bowmaster: My main goal is to remove the strong tie to Strength Stance. This does not mean nerfs, only that the buffs Bowmaster bestows onto S:S will apply regardless of stance. This change indicates a general shift in the stance design on the class. All stance altering traits and set bonuses will be repurposed and their buffs will be redistributed. My intention is to allow Hunters of all traitlines the ability to change stance based on circumstances. As part of this, I'll be changing the stances around to ensure each of them is better at what they do well. Besides that the Bowmaster will be very close to what it is now.

Huntsman: While I knew that bringing up melee would pique peoples curiosity, I admit to being taken aback by how much negativity it generated. Legolas quickly dispatching enemies at range and in melee is the archtype the class was built on and one that many still identify with. A monthly update was not enough time to make the kind that would bring the Huntsman up to a Legolas standard, but an expansion is. Before I say anymore, yes, I understand that Hunters do not use melee much. I believe that this is more because that there is little reason or benefit, not because it isn't exciting to switch between melee and ranged combat during a fight. However, it seems I did my job too well in the last update, many are rather fond of the state the Huntsman is in and do not want it changed. Such feedback has effected me, and I'm backing off from making the Huntsman a melee/ranged hybrid. Instead, minor edits like Bowmaster will be made, mainly removing traits that effect specific stances.
That said, here are some details for what I was planning for the line: All melee skills grant focus, ranged skills increase melee damage while melee skills increase ranged damage (with applications/removals to encourage switching between ranged and melee at some kind of tempo - 10 seconds ranged buffed, 10 seconds melee buffed), extending Fleetness to buff melee, make quickshot usable while moving (ie: no induction). Basically, allow the class to fluidly swap between melee and ranged and gain benefits for doing so, while giving it even more mobility and induction-less attacks.

Trapper of Foes: "But you just made it awesome, don't nerf it!" Don't worry, I'm not changing Trapper to nerf it. When the last update hit, a lot of feedback on the line was focused on the damage reduction still being unappreciated, and penshot still not being what people hoped for. I intend on changing both of those. Further, the realities of endgame are that CC is often negated by boss mechanics, making a class that CC's focus on support through debuffs, buffs or restoration. The trapper will trade some of his straight CC for more generally applicable support abilities. Lastly, I'm going to try to add new trap mechanics in that make the Trapper more about traps!

I think that's the important stuff. I'm going to be out for two weeks after this, so don't expect any more info any time soon. Please do continue discussing things, talking about what you want and don't want, and focus on examples, not hyperbole :)

GL, HF!

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I think if you wrote this in your first post, people would've reacted otherwise. I atleast would :) The changes suggested are in my opinion great! It would make the hunter a more advanced class. I especially like the part about making quick shot possible to fire while moving!

ooo,,, i like it ZC! those ideas actually sound like they'd make for much more fun while playing... i have not once even thought about retraiting when i switch between raiding and soloing... because it just wasn't worth it... no difference in playstyle. it was stand still, shoot arrows. notice i didn't mention anything about melee skills. i would SOOO like a buff like you describe.

also... it would make bowmaster actually be a master of the bow, dealing more damage regardless of stance... instead of simply huntsman being master of the bow. and it would make huntsman be the preferred choice for soloing (as most of the moria dev diaries pretty much explained that huntsman bonuses were based off of hunter feedback regarding soloing... ie induction knockback in melee)

yes, hunters HAVE BEEN primarily an archer class... but some raid/fellowship mechanics essentially force hunters to stand in melee distance of bosses (NCF, Mistress, being 2 examples) that hunters end up doing LESS DPS because of melee auto attacks. givng all melee skills focus-generating abilities would be very welcome, as would be more induction-less bow shots like QS. alot of your ideas are based on suggestions on these very forums. i would urge you to not abandon those huntsman ideas. they would give a new way to excel at perfecting our DPS rotations, for those of us that want that variety.

would your ideas for the new huntsman also be based on separating out faster induction speeds into passive skills we would buy from our class trainer at say level 55 and 65 or so? [edit: or would induction speed possibly be part of the base funcionality of one of the "new" stances? 2nd edit: maybe some of those proposed huntsman changes would be part of a stance? say the melee/ranged alternating buffs?]

and to make trapper of foes more about traps would be awesome! especially since we only have one trap skill that gets affected by all those set bonuses...

The problem with melee skills is that you need to be in melee range to use them.

If we cannot do the same amount of DPS at 40m as we can at 5m then we will feel nerfed whenever out of melee range. A ranged DPS class that's not as effective at range? I guess we could shift our thinking and stop calling ourselves a pure ranged DPS class. Unfortunately, raids are designed with the idea that there are ranged DPS classes in the game.


In general, Huntsman is preferred for raiding and fellowship instances. Sustained DPS over long fights. Usually standing out of range of any melee AOE attacks done by the raid bosses.

In general, BowMaster is preferred for soloing and PVP. High burst DPS that is very difficult to sustain. Usually standing at range but ending in melee range face-to-face with mobs.


It seems to me that any changes to the melee skills should be associated more closely with the BowMaster trait line instead of the Huntsman trait line.

My hunter has always been mostly Huntsman traited ever since it came out. I would do as much damage as I could at range, and when enemies got close, I would switch to melee attacks to finish them off. The problem is, it isn't really an optimal strategy. Standing there in melee range, not doing melee attacks, but using your bow with double traited Needful Haste is much better. This doesn't seem right.

After they took away Bow & Blade and gave it to all hunters, there's only one melee trait left and it's fairly weak. Some changes to base skills or upgraded/additional traits to help close combat would be nice.

Interesting ideas. Guess we'll have to wait and see how the ideas are all implemented. I'd hate to see another -5% nerf to strength stance. Still don't know how that was decided upon...

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Originally Posted by Yosoff

The problem with melee skills is that you need to be in melee range to use them.

If we cannot do the same amount of DPS at 40m as we can at 5m then we will feel nerfed whenever out of melee range. A ranged DPS class that's not as effective at range? I guess we could shift our thinking and stop calling ourselves a pure ranged DPS class. Unfortunately, raids are designed with the idea that there are ranged DPS classes in the game.


In general, Huntsman is preferred for raiding and fellowship instances. Sustained DPS over long fights. Usually standing out of range of any melee AOE attacks done by the raid bosses.

In general, BowMaster is preferred for soloing and PVP. High burst DPS that is very difficult to sustain. Usually standing at range but ending in melee range face-to-face with mobs.


It seems to me that any changes to the melee skills should be associated more closely with the BowMaster trait line instead of the Huntsman trait line.

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I agree. Bowmaster seems better suited to melee abilities for PvP/solo purposes, but I will be very sad if the burst damage gets nerfed.

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Originally Posted by Dom12

I honestly had to look back and make sure this wasn't posted on April 1..... :confused:

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I did too, bro.




@ ZC:
Thanks for the details, it's an interesting paradigm shift, but one that sounds more engaging than what we've got, which could make gameplay more fun.

Some interesting possibilities there, but I'd still want fleet stance to add to defences, probably evade. For me, conceptually, mobility == dodging...

Thanks, ZC. It's nice to have 2-way communication like this. No...it's great to have this type of communication!

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Huntsman: While I knew that bringing up melee would pique peoples curiosity, I admit to being taken aback by how much negativity it generated. Legolas quickly dispatching enemies at range and in melee is the archtype the class was built on and one that many still identify with.

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As far as Hunstman goes, it sounds good if we are going to have a Merciful Shot-type melee attack ("quickly dispatching enemies"), sure! I can see the back-and-forth you describe working in a group setting if you are peeling enemies off a tank one at a time. Would it be viable solo? I suppose it certainly would with traited Needful Haste.

Quick Shot become Fast certainly makes a lot of sense too!


.

I'm a huge fan of hunters getting some melee damage.

My feeling is that most of the "opposition" to hunters getting melee abilities comes from raid hunters who adamantly don't want to be in melee. For solo hunters like myself, the reality is that in a tough fight you're going to spend a lot of it in melee.

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Originally Posted by GSO86

That gives me an idea.... ToF traitline would allow Desperate Flight to work as an AoE for your whole group to escape!

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In early beta, it had an induction and did exactly that :D

Well, the reply from ZC looks pretty good.

This is what I imagine was his idea:
Bowmaster: ranged dps
Trapper of Foes: utility
Huntsman: fun build (like burgs have with the stealth and sneaking, captains with their heralds, loremasters traited blue etc)

I can support that, as long as our primary raid role will be premier ranged dps.

Also I love that the change to ToF will add more group utility, the CC aspect of it is perfect, but unfortunately as he stated if you can CC and not debuff or help the group in other way, you will always be behind Loremasters/Burglars.

The problem is that the "fun" build becomes useless in raids and certain fellowships. It might be fun solo but that's about it. the time you spend going to melee is lost dps, and you'll get murdered in a raid if you go melee.

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

::cracks knuckles::

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GROSS. /cringe Don't make me slap you around like I do my husband when he does that around me. :p

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Bowmaster: My main goal is to remove the strong tie to Strength Stance. This does not mean nerfs, only that the buffs Bowmaster bestows onto S:S will apply regardless of stance. This change indicates a general shift in the stance design on the class. All stance altering traits and set bonuses will be repurposed and their buffs will be redistributed. My intention is to allow Hunters of all traitlines the ability to change stance based on circumstances. As part of this, I'll be changing the stances around to ensure each of them is better at what they do well. Besides that the Bowmaster will be very close to what it is now.

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I'm definitely liking the sound of this already.

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Huntsman: <snip> However, it seems I did my job too well in the last update, many are rather fond of the state the Huntsman is in and do not want it changed. Such feedback has effected me, and I'm backing off from making the Huntsman a melee/ranged hybrid. Instead, minor edits like Bowmaster will be made, mainly removing traits that effect specific stances.

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/claps

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That said, here are some details for what I was planning for the line: All melee skills grant focus, ranged skills increase melee damage while melee skills increase ranged damage (with applications/removals to encourage switching between ranged and melee at some kind of tempo - 10 seconds ranged buffed, 10 seconds melee buffed), extending Fleetness to buff melee, make quickshot usable while moving (ie: no induction). Basically, allow the class to fluidly swap between melee and ranged and gain benefits for doing so, while giving it even more mobility and induction-less attacks.

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Color me intrigued...

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I think that's the important stuff. I'm going to be out for two weeks after this, so don't expect any more info any time soon.

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Ooh ooh, are you going somewhere tropical? Take me, please!

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Originally Posted by Daynab

The problem is that the "fun" build becomes useless in raids and certain fellowships. It might be fun solo but that's about it. the time you spend going to melee is lost dps, and you'll get murdered in a raid if you go melee.

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Well if 2 out of 3 builds are viable for raiding, thats 100% increase compared to last few years :)

And also take in mind not every hunter is raider, people who don't raid should have option for solo build.

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

::cracks knuckles::

First off, to the "but we just got updated!" people. Rumblings in other class forums may have begun to tip you off that more then just the Hunter is getting some work. We haven't made global announcements yet, but I think it may be fairly clear where this is going. Also, it will be some months before anything I've teased here hits game.

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Yes, and I look forward to it for the lines that need it and class that need it.

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Next, I want to give a big thankyou to the whole Hunter community here. The debate and discussion has been very helpful! I very much wanted to just throw some chum in the water and see what happened. While I didn't know exactly what to expect, I'm glad for what I did get.

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I've been playing this class for almost as long as my captain, so my captain since the game launched and this for almost those same 4 years.... you did a great job with Huntsman and I like what you did with it this last update...I'll go further into the ideas you had for Huntsman in a few lines... they were good but...

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Bowmaster: My main goal is to remove the strong tie to Strength Stance. This does not mean nerfs, only that the buffs Bowmaster bestows onto S:S will apply regardless of stance. This change indicates a general shift in the stance design on the class. All stance altering traits and set bonuses will be repurposed and their buffs will be redistributed. My intention is to allow Hunters of all traitlines the ability to change stance based on circumstances. As part of this, I'll be changing the stances around to ensure each of them is better at what they do well. Besides that the Bowmaster will be very close to what it is now.

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So let me get this straight, traiting bow master will add 10% damage to all stances? This is intriguing, and I very much look forward to hearing from this more.

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Huntsman: While I knew that bringing up melee would pique peoples curiosity, I admit to being taken aback by how much negativity it generated. Legolas quickly dispatching enemies at range and in melee is the archtype the class was built on and one that many still identify with. A monthly update was not enough time to make the kind that would bring the Huntsman up to a Legolas standard, but an expansion is. Before I say anymore, yes, I understand that Hunters do not use melee much. I believe that this is more because that there is little reason or benefit, not because it isn't exciting to switch between melee and ranged combat during a fight. However, it seems I did my job too well in the last update, many are rather fond of the state the Huntsman is in and do not want it changed. Such feedback has effected me, and I'm backing off from making the Huntsman a melee/ranged hybrid. Instead, minor edits like Bowmaster will be made, mainly removing traits that effect specific stances.

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Enduring precision made into a line or passive bonus? another new trait.... I'm all ears. Sounds good. Don't see any other major concerns with Bow master.

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

That said, here are some details for what I was planning for the line: All melee skills grant focus, ranged skills increase melee damage while melee skills increase ranged damage (with applications/removals to encourage switching between ranged and melee at some kind of tempo - 10 seconds ranged buffed, 10 seconds melee buffed), extending Fleetness to buff melee, make quickshot usable while moving (ie: no induction). Basically, allow the class to fluidly swap between melee and ranged and gain benefits for doing so, while giving it even more mobility and induction-less attacks.

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Okay here's where we really get into it. These are all AWSOME ideas. I'll start simple, while I LOVE the idea of more skills on the move this would severely hurt the RK's strength for DPS. A hunter has longer range than a RK, making it so more and more of their skills can be spammed on the move (quickshot) will slowly phase out the usefulness of Rune Keeper DPS. However adding the other 2 single target focus skills to be allowed while moving would be acceptable in my opinion.

bow & blade: I like it, don't get me wrong but this game has ONE and i repeat one dedicated ranged DPS class (not tacical, physcial ranged damage.) melee does not, and should not be integrated further into this even though your ideas are solid. I like your idea on the focus building, they are good. But the new raid set has no might on it because thats what we wanted, and how we wanted it. It's good.

A trait to replace Enduring Precision would be nice... I would like to see a trait that is -5 seconds on Rain of Arrows cool down.

I also have an easy enough sustaining focus in a full focus build... even if every melee skill granted focus i would have no reason to stay in melee... focus in generated incredibly easy and I am never short of it since Swift Mercy was implimented.

Now what would be good would be to take this idea and implement it into a 4th trait line, or better yet, I say a new class designed with hybriding in mind from the get go. Similar to the RK which is DPS or Heals... implement a class that can do solid ranged or melee damage based on trait lines or stances. the Ranger's were skilled with Bow and with Blade. this would present the perfect opportunity to add a class like this to the game to do what you suggested. Hybrid and switch between melee and ranged. 2 handed weapons and bows and crossbows would be amazing for this.

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Trapper of Foes: "But you just made it awesome, don't nerf it!" Don't worry, I'm not changing Trapper to nerf it. When the last update hit, a lot of feedback on the line was focused on the damage reduction still being unappreciated, and penshot still not being what people hoped for. I intend on changing both of those. Further, the realities of endgame are that CC is often negated by boss mechanics, making a class that CC's focus on support through debuffs, buffs or restoration. The trapper will trade some of his straight CC for more generally applicable support abilities. Lastly, I'm going to try to add new trap mechanics in that make the Trapper more about traps!

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i would love to see trapper of foes focus on, you knows... traps. Adding more utility and removing the dmg penalty is great as well. Looking forward to this one the most.

Examples as per requested. Add more to the legendary, have it sever the cooldowns for all traps. Allow trip wires in combat. Allow the combat traps to allow snares in combat and sever the cooldown between these 2 skills as well. Add more traps with more utility functions. You could have something similar the lure trap that helps allies. Athelas bundle. Would put up passive resistances to poisons and maybe a minor HoT. After all the Hunter is the survivalist class as well. this would fit it very well. Make AoE purge poison a trait in place of the Endurance stance trait since u are removing this. Make it function liek the LM Proof Against All Ills, no cool down addition. Just makes it AoE. The hunter's secondary role is back up CC and poison removals. THIS is what we need upgrading on, not Melee DPS. As Explained above a new class is best suited for that.

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

I think that's the important stuff. I'm going to be out for two weeks after this, so don't expect any more info any time soon. Please do continue discussing things, talking about what you want and don't want, and focus on examples, not hyperbole :)

GL, HF!

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Looking forward to your next post and/or updates. Have fun wherever your going for 2 weeks. :)

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Originally Posted by Daynab

In early beta, it had an induction and did exactly that :D

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that indusction was still there at launch. it was removed in june 07 with the first major update ot the game titled book 9. they also increased its cooldown to 30 minutes with that patch

with all due respect... why do we need 2 archer classes when a few tweaks can be made to hunters? you keep asking for a ranger class... hunter IS LOTRO's "ranger" class... because in LOTR lore... Rangers are a specific group of people including Aragorn, who are of mixed elven/human decent. the only ranger class in game will be/has been the session play ranger (not-currently) available in the moors. (i suppose some of the epic session quests would count as well) Turbine has already said as much.

i understand some folks are adamantly opposed to buffing hunter melee... but like currently... if you don't like the (buffed) skills... continue not using them. if you want YOUR hunter to only be an archer... then so be it... i want MY hunter to feel like the class i was promised... an archer that could ALSO hold her own in melee. in short, please allow others the versatility that they've (i've, we've) been longing for since SoA, so we can shelve our RK alts (which incidentally still do about 10-20% more sustained DPS than hunters in raids, based on the parses i've seen. RKs easily breaking 1000 anywhere, while hunters only see 900+ in S:S against the LT's bird)

i suppose what i'm saying is, i respect your opinion of not wanting to change hunter anymore... but i strongly and respectively disagree.

speaking of upgrades... is there any chance that Improved Swift Bow (learned at 54) could be further improved to earn default 3 focus?

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Originally Posted by Lithium777

bow & blade: I like it, don't get me wrong but this game has ONE and i repeat one dedicated ranged DPS class (not tacical, physcial ranged damage.) melee does not, and should not be integrated further into this even though your ideas are solid. I like your idea on the focus building, they are good. But the new raid set has no might on it because thats what we wanted, and how we wanted it. It's good.

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I don't get your point. The raid set has no might, and raid hunters would be pure ranged dps hunters.
I don't see how that could possibly effect the fact that a "solo set" could have might and solo hunters can spec for a melee/ranged hybrid.

I don't carry a tank in my pocket, so improved melee skills would be of huge benefit to me.

quickshot usable while moving? yea thats not overpowered in pvp at all.

Maybe we'll get more debuffs in the ToF line that are triggered by causing the enemies to step into traps. Sorta like the Loremaster's Circles. As to how to position these... there's always the possibility of the Trap Launcher :D I would like to see Set Snare as a AOE effect rather than a trigger-once-and-it's-gone effect.

I'm probably going to get yelled at by some, but I love the idea of fluid fighting in and out of melee range. It would make the moors a heck of a lot more fun actually being able to have a chance at 1vs1's. Most of the time "hunters" get hunted in 1v1's vs wargs.

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Originally Posted by IGolbezI

quickshot usable while moving? yea thats not overpowered in pvp at all.

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I don't PvP, but to be able to do quick shot on the run does seem overpowered to me, or at the very least, does not make sense. It is a focus building skill, kind of hard to build focus on the run.

My first 2cents on this topic....

Firstly, thank ZC for the clarification.

I suspect all the aggro you just managed to tank was from saying that the hunter was designed to be a 'true bow and blade warrior' - which implied being another champ/guard wannabe, with the intention of being a viable melee character. In other words, not just someone who can survive the up close and personal, but should also be staying in melee range for a period of time in order to serve a good functioning role. That's not our role. Our role is ranged DPS (and now, some CC).

So, there was an idea that our role, our new function, was melee.... not that we'd just be more survivable when placed in that situation. There's a very big difference between the two concepts (and hence the comparisons with the other melee classes - and hence the 'negativity').


On the idea of the 'concept' of the hunter - Legolas. Let's just go back to the drawing boards and see what the picture really is. Scene 1: Moria, Balin's tomb. Enter: Cave-troll. What does our intrepid 'bow and blade warrior' do?? Pew-pew's at point-blank* range... note: NO sharp pointy stick (or metal), except that leaving the bow. Scene 2: Amon Sul. Enter, hordes of uruk-hai. What does our intrepid 'bow and blade warrior' do?? Pew-pews at point-blank range. He then takes out 3 (in the movie) uruk-hai, again at point-blank range, with his bow - melee daggers staying safely secured in their scabbards. After hearing a horn, he races through the woods, bow in hand, pew-pewing on the move (QS/PS on move, no induction?) Scene 3: Fields of Pelennor. Enter marmaluks. What does our intrepid 'bow and blade warrior' do? Pew-pews at point-blank range. Then, hops up on a marmaluk, and pew-pews some more. Then, jumps off the marmaluk, and keeps on pew-pewing.... daggers still safely secured away on his back.

In the movies, and basically intimated when not outright said in the books, Legolas leaves his knives on his back, unless absolutely necessary, which basically would mean when he was out of arrows (which, since it was a type of super-hero movie, meant never :p).

So, if Legolas is the design you're going for, then melee has to be few and far between, and rates much much lower than ranged DPS. Useable, but not an intelligent viable alternative as a class action/role. (IIRC, even when he did go melee, it was briefly, and then he was back on the bow again ASAP... yes?)

So, I'd say that the idea of melee skills building focus would fit this idea.


In reference to S: not having an impact on traits, I disagree entirely. While I agree, it would be nice to do our max damage at any time, in any stance, I think it takes away from the builds by doing so. I stay in S:P because I get trait bonuses from doing so. I would be in S:S because of the trait bonuses for doing so. Free-for-all mixing and matching would, IMNSHO, mean more cookie-cutting, not less.

ToF suggestion - how about a shot that not only Fears the enemy, but makes them attack their own??? The sort of fear that makes people crush others in their panic to escape? The sort of panic that makes you fight anything, and anyone, in your way??

I'm glad I didn't get to this thread til after ZC got in his 2nd post, with more details... I like the improvements to the melee skills, but certainly don't want to be another 'viable' melee character... that would just cheapen me. (any chance we can have a class that only does 1 thing, but does it well? Instead of all this 'mixed-role' thing????)


*(using the technically incorrect definition of 'melee range'.... )

I've always been amazed by how many hunters think hunters are rubbish in melee.

There are two legacies I like to have (on top of the more important ones to improve ranged damage) - Swift stroke Parry/Evade buff and Agile Rejoinder Heal Chance. I don't add many points to the first, but take the second all the way.

The result is that when an enemy reaches melee range, I use Swift Stroke, increasing my avoidance to near 30%. Any blow that is avoided doesn't set back inductions, it seems, making it easier to do bow dps. In addition, there is the (now 100%) Agile Rejoinder heal, which is larger than a Guardian's self heal.

Solo, add the Mirkwood crafted chestpiece with damage reduction, and the gloves with Heal procs. I wouldn't claim indestructability, but in melee range I'd rate my Hunter as pretty robust, and kills far faster than my other characters in melee range.

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Originally Posted by Daynab

The problem is that the "fun" build becomes useless in raids and certain fellowships. It might be fun solo but that's about it. the time you spend going to melee is lost dps, and you'll get murdered in a raid if you go melee.

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Cannot agree more.

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Originally Posted by Finrandiras

Well if 2 out of 3 builds are viable for raiding, thats 100% increase compared to last few years :)

And also take in mind not every hunter is raider, people who don't raid should have option for solo build.

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Are you saying you have problem soloing as a hunter now? So much so that it warrants a redesigned "solo" build?

There really isn't any solo quest content that a hunter cannot already solo as a ranged class. "Death from Below" is the ultimate solo test, and with the amount of CC a hunter has, many of the "fellowship" volume II epilogue content can be soloed quite easily as well.



I'm not going to say that a hybrid melee/ranged build is a bad idea, because I do in fact think it's a very interesting a concept. I've played such classes in other games before. Such a build really does belong to a new class though, and should not be squeezed into the Hunter class. Or if you must add it to the Hunter class, make it a fourth traitline.

Right now, as a ranged class, the hunter has a choice between fast-hitting and hard-hitting. These are healthy variations of ranged builds for a ranged class, regardless of situations. If you replace one of the traitlines with a melee/hybrid build just for the sake of it, then you end up limiting the actual options this ranged class has when it comes to actual ranged builds. Yes, notice I'm repeating "ranged" over and over. The Hunter is the only ranged class right now, and we should be getting even more viable variations of different ranged builds, and not be getting reduced to just one.

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

That said, here are some details for what I was planning for the line: All melee skills grant focus, ranged skills increase melee damage while melee skills increase ranged damage (with applications/removals to encourage switching between ranged and melee at some kind of tempo - 10 seconds ranged buffed, 10 seconds melee buffed), extending Fleetness to buff melee, make quickshot usable while moving (ie: no induction). Basically, allow the class to fluidly swap between melee and ranged and gain benefits for doing so, while giving it even more mobility and induction-less attacks.

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I love this and would like to see it in game. We have melee skills, but rarely use them, and as others pointed out many hunters end up doing induction bow skills while a mob is standing right in front of them. It's illogical and painful to play. I'd like our melee skills to be buffed a little and the rotation between the two and the 'on the go' nature of this trait lines sounds wonderful and makes it very different to the other lines.

I think you should go for it and just move some of the old trait bonuses to other lines, to traits, or to new skills as we level from 65-75.

-Bel

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

That said, here are some details for what I was planning for the line: All melee skills grant focus, ranged skills increase melee damage while melee skills increase ranged damage (with applications/removals to encourage switching between ranged and melee at some kind of tempo - 10 seconds ranged buffed, 10 seconds melee buffed), extending Fleetness to buff melee, make quickshot usable while moving (ie: no induction). Basically, allow the class to fluidly swap between melee and ranged and gain benefits for doing so, while giving it even more mobility and induction-less attacks.
GL, HF!

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As a player who almost exclusively solos, I LOVE these proposed changes. I don't know what kind of crazy ranged damage some of the people in this thread are doing, but depending on the enemy I don't always find I can pick something off before it closes to melee range with me. I would think I'm not the only one in that situation, so these would make some very welcome improvements.

Please reconsider axing your ideas because of the naysaying speculation in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

...All melee skills grant focus, ranged skills increase melee damage while melee skills increase ranged damage (with applications/removals to encourage switching between ranged and melee at some kind of tempo - 10 seconds ranged buffed, 10 seconds melee buffed)...

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This has potential awesomeness all over it. First, make the buffs stack. Second, make legs to extend the range/melee buffs. Those two changes would make Huntsmen a killer line and totally in the Legolas archetype. :D

Being new to the game I cant articulate discussion to the degree a lot of you have, you have been playing longer then I. What baffles me about the hunter is when a mob gets to close range my stongest attack is still a bow shot (at lvl 19 anyway). This dosent seem logical at all, particularly if the intent was and is to model the class after legalos. From what I have read, without the benefit of years playing the hunter it appears this dev is attempting to buff melee skills to create more realism (based of the legalos model).

Remember there are a lot of non 65 lvl hunters running around who dont have the time invested in the toon to have a lot of high end expirence and equipment. Yeah, I want to be a ranged hunter. I'll set my traps, I'll use my quick shot but when a mob gets close my best offensive option shouldnt be drawing another arrow from my quiver, it should be my blade.

While this is a simplistic view, I think a lot of discussion can get meyered in specifics for high end players, where class balance and game play has to be considered through out the range of hunters and their levels. Make my hunter a superior bowman, but, yeah im in favor of buffing melee. Dont need to be a tank, but It would be reasonable that when a mob gets close my swords do more damage then a quick shot.

Thanks!

alt = Cal lvl 19 hunter

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

First off, to the "but we just got updated!" people. Rumblings in other class forums may have begun to tip you off that more then just the Hunter is getting some work. We haven't made global announcements yet, but I think it may be fairly clear where this is going. Also, it will be some months before anything I've teased here hits game.

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I think many of us, myself included, weren't really thinking of this as being part of the expansion. Obviously, with a 10 level increase (so happy we aren't doing another meaningless 5-level hop!!), there are going to be some new directions taken for all classes. In that context, it certainly makes more sense.

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Next, I want to give a big thankyou to the whole Hunter community here. The debate and discussion has been very helpful! I very much wanted to just throw some chum in the water and see what happened. While I didn't know exactly what to expect, I'm glad for what I did get.

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No, thank you! We always relish the rare dev sighting here, even the cryptic posts like your first one are appreciated.

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Huntsman: While I knew that bringing up melee would pique peoples curiosity, I admit to being taken aback by how much negativity it generated. Legolas quickly dispatching enemies at range and in melee is the archtype the class was built on and one that many still identify with. A monthly update was not enough time to make the kind that would bring the Huntsman up to a Legolas standard, but an expansion is. Before I say anymore, yes, I understand that Hunters do not use melee much. I believe that this is more because that there is little reason or benefit, not because it isn't exciting to switch between melee and ranged combat during a fight. However, it seems I did my job too well in the last update, many are rather fond of the state the Huntsman is in and do not want it changed. Such feedback has effected me, and I'm backing off from making the Huntsman a melee/ranged hybrid. Instead, minor edits like Bowmaster will be made, mainly removing traits that effect specific stances.
That said, here are some details for what I was planning for the line: All melee skills grant focus, ranged skills increase melee damage while melee skills increase ranged damage (with applications/removals to encourage switching between ranged and melee at some kind of tempo - 10 seconds ranged buffed, 10 seconds melee buffed), extending Fleetness to buff melee, make quickshot usable while moving (ie: no induction). Basically, allow the class to fluidly swap between melee and ranged and gain benefits for doing so, while giving it even more mobility and induction-less attacks.

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Yes, many of us have grown rather fond of the huntsman line. And we've all grown up as hunters, seeing our melee skills as only worth the utility they add, and all but useless in terms of damage output. What you describe here has me very curious tho. I think that adding more synergy between our melee and ranged skills is an excellent idea. Right now, we have one skill - Blindside - that works with our DPS (ranged) skills, but it's rarely worth closing to melee ourselves for that alone. In groups, we're almost always better off staying back for maximum DPS. I would be very interested to see more benefits from melee skills that enhanced our ranged skills. The benefits for solo play would be obvious there, but I'd think that would give us some cool options in group play too. I'm envisioning the option to either sit back and rain old-school hunter DPS from a distance, or to close in and run a more multiple rotation with melee skills working in concert with quick ranged skills, and I'm liking the idea.

Honestly, in the past, it was convenient to be able to just not even slot several of our melee skills cause quickslot space was so limited, but with the Lua mods, I now have tons of space on my main bars, and I'd love to have a reason to actually use most/all of my combat skills.

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Trapper of Foes: "But you just made it awesome, don't nerf it!" Don't worry, I'm not changing Trapper to nerf it. When the last update hit, a lot of feedback on the line was focused on the damage reduction still being unappreciated, and penshot still not being what people hoped for. I intend on changing both of those. Further, the realities of endgame are that CC is often negated by boss mechanics, making a class that CC's focus on support through debuffs, buffs or restoration. The trapper will trade some of his straight CC for more generally applicable support abilities. Lastly, I'm going to try to add new trap mechanics in that make the Trapper more about traps!

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I've never bothered w/ ToF personally, but your ideas here sound compelling. In terms of CC in general, I'd love to see our core CC abilities get some attention, things that have been discussed for years like separate cooldowns for our skill trap/snare, and unified trap kits for the crafted trap options (I quit carrying crafted traps altogether, but if I could just carry a stack of trap kits, and use them for all the variations, I certainly would).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Forgotten_Legend

... but some raid/fellowship mechanics essentially force hunters to stand in melee distance of bosses (NCF, Mistress, being 2 examples) that hunters end up doing LESS DPS because of melee auto attacks.

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NCF?? I assume you're talking about the cauldron? Why are you in melee there?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

::cracks knuckles::

First off, to the "but we just got updated!" people. ...snipped... Also, it will be some months before anything I've teased here hits game.

Bowmaster: My main goal is to remove the strong tie to Strength Stance. ... snipped ... My intention is to allow Hunters of all trait lines the ability to change stance based on circumstances.

Huntsman: ...snipped... However, it seems I did my job too well in the last update, many are rather fond of the state the Huntsman is in and do not want it changed. Such feedback has effected me ...
That said, here are some details for what I was planning for the line: All melee skills grant focus, ranged skills increase melee damage while melee skills increase ranged damage (with applications/removals to encourage switching between ranged and melee at some kind of tempo - 10 seconds ranged buffed, 10 seconds melee buffed), extending Fleetness to buff melee, make quickshot usable while moving (ie: no induction). Basically, allow the class to fluidly swap between melee and ranged and gain benefits for doing so, while giving it even more mobility and induction-less attacks.

Trapper of Foes: ...snipped... Lastly, I'm going to try to add new trap mechanics in that make the Trapper more about traps!

...snipped...

Please do continue discussing things, talking about what you want and don't want, and focus on examples, not hyperbole :)

---

Wow ... talk about a developer who is representing his gamer audience ... one who asks for input and then lets us know that he is listening!!! Dang, it would appear that there actually is a "Santa Claus".

At this point, I am not sure how any Hunter can complain about the interactive service we are getting. Everything in the quote above is something that I can wholeheartedly support and, based on the last update which, as I said earlier, I loved, I am now fully in the "can't wait to see what what we come up with" category which is, IMO, the most any community can hope to expect from any developer. Talk about earning rep!

So, "talking about what you want and don't want, and focus on examples"...

In my opinion, Hunter our melee skills should focus on one thing - when faced with hand-to-hand combat, the goal is to do what you have to "open the fight" back up to bow range. I would like to see our melee skills:

1. De-buff the opponent in some fashion(s) (I care not what) to effectively slow them

2. Give the hunter a brief buff to speed - effectively allowing our non-combat speed buff to briefly work in combat

3. Give the Hunter a brief buff to allow Quick Shot to work "on the move", without any induction - like Penetrating shot can now.

End result is, when faced with H2H, the hunter can do what it takes to slow the enemy, get a couple of shots while retreating and then resume ranged bow work.

Granted, you can do something like this now with Dazing Blow, Distracting Shot, and or Bard's Arrow (if slotted), but there is little ability to actually shoot on the move and it is danged difficult to open the distance enough to get even one induction skill off in the grace period earned.

That said, I cannot describe how nice it is to know our dev will actually read this! :)

Most respectfully, etc...

Your obedient servant

Luinmiriel-Magellin

Elven Huntress, Honoured of the White Lady, Defender of Lorien

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tamiya

Right now, as a ranged class, the hunter has a choice between fast-hitting and hard-hitting. These are healthy variations of ranged builds for a ranged class, regardless of situations. If you replace one of the traitlines with a melee/hybrid build just for the sake of it, then you end up limiting the actual options this ranged class has when it comes to actual ranged builds. Yes, notice I'm repeating "ranged" over and over. The Hunter is the only ranged class right now, and we should be getting even more viable variations of different ranged builds, and not be getting reduced to just one.

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This is my concern as well. Being dependent on melee skills to buff ranged DPS means we will be dependent on being within melee range. That's not always as option.

It's a great concept for a SOLO hunter, but we need an option designed for high, sustained, range-only DPS.

Interesting stuff ZC, and I think that we have some nice improvements to look forward to.

I can understand the vision of trying to give hunters a more effective option for melee battle. After all, when soloing, the majority of our play IS in melee. It's only in groups where we may have the luxury to keep our distance.

However, when it comes right down to it, our melee skills just plain do not do enough damage to make them attractive to use. Why waste time on a skill that might do 200-300 damage when I've got a bow skill available that hits for twice that as a bare minimum and has a much higher chance to crit? I certainly use the melee skills for their extremely useful secondary effects--parry/evade bonus, interrupt, corruption removal, heal, etc., but I don't count on them to kill things.

Admittedly, some of that lack of damage is the fact that hunters don't set up their stats for melee. I'm sure I could do a lot better with those skills if I stacked might and melee offence/crit, but of course that means sacrificing my ranged abilities and/or surviveability. Given that I do a lot of raiding where my primary role is ranged dps, might and melee stats are not helpful at all. I'm just giving up something else that would be more helpful.

Really, I don't think this is a bad thing. I don't need to be great at everything. I don't need to be able to go into "champ-mode". Sure, when I first started LotRO, it felt kinda weird shooting stuff point-blank, but it's effective. Melee combat does make use of our melee skills to help us survive, but it's still the bow that delivers the pain.

I think the better option is for you to stick with your original idea for the Huntsman to be a melee/ranged hybrid. How exactly will you explain how melee attacks increase focus? So I hit something with my sword for a bit and now all of a sudden I am better able to sheathe my sword, pull out a bow, knock and arrow and get off a higher damaging bow attack? Why?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

*Many interesting things, and a thoughtful surprise or two*

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Thanks for the extra details ZC! I like a whole lot of this. Much of it you've seen for a long time, so it's a pleasant surprise to see that they've rung true with you as well. De-coupling Bowmaster from a specific stance, the damage hit to ToF and unusable PS root, reworking crafted traps, extra mobility, and some group utility (in-combat) are all great themes. I'm looking forward to seeing how these flesh out down the road.

Don't feel too bad about not being able to recreate Legolas either. I'd much rather be good at why I picked the class, and have more than one "flavor" of performing that role, than try and be good at both ranged and melee damage.

My biggest concern with the Bowmaster changes is what happens to the +threat & +power bonuses it currently has. If those stay along with the +damage to any stance it’s going to make controlling aggro & power in raids much harder. I currently only use Strength when I need the extra DPS otherwise I run Precision. If Precision gets slapped with those same bonuses I might have to go back to Endurance to negate them :(.

As far as Huntsman, I hope it doesn’t change too much, it’s my favorite trait line currently. As a primarily raiding hunter, I don’t use my melee skills that much so I don’t see a need for an entire line dedicated to melee. Just update the melee skills and leave the trait line basically as is.

The Trapper line changes look good. One reason I don’t run this a lot is because of the hit to damage we take. If that is reduced or removed all together I can see this becoming a much more useful line. I can see many more attempts at soloing instances with this setup with these changes :).

I’m looking forward to most of the changes. A lot will depend on how the stances & traits are changed to compliment these proposed changes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Next, I want to give a big thankyou to the whole Hunter community here. The debate and discussion has been very helpful! I very much wanted to just throw some chum in the water and see what happened. While I didn't know exactly what to expect, I'm glad for what I did get.

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Thanks for keeping us abreast of your intentions and thought processes, ZC. I think a lot of players in this particular forum (veterans anyway) are just a little surprised with all the attention Hunters have been getting over the past few updates (3.2, 3.3, and now RoI) since, in the past, changes to the class have been made in fits and starts, and most of the big ones tended to be presented as fait-accompli with little to no community input (I'm looking at YOU, 2.7). You could say that a lot of us have become somewhat accustomed to either outright neglect or zero-sum "buffs" that come with some sort of price. Your work on the 3.3 update was highly unusual in comparison and to have an even more major class update on the horizon (and announced so soon afterwards) leads many here to be wary - or at least, cautiously optimistic. I'm one of them! But this follow-up post has done a lot to assuage my personal concerns.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Bowmaster: My main goal is to remove the strong tie to Strength Stance. This does not mean nerfs, only that the buffs Bowmaster bestows onto S:S will apply regardless of stance.

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I like the idea that stances and traitlines will not be so intertwined. On the face of it, it seems like it would encourage Traiting for your role, and changing Stance based on the situation. In the past, most of the Bowmaster line bonuses only applied in Strength, so there was this psychological impetus to maintain that stance as long as possible - after all, why trait 4 or 5-BM if you're not getting the maximum utility out of it? S:P and S:E thus seemed "wasteful" if you were rocking a bunch of red traits. The 3.3 changes removed some of that stance-reliance, but the real meat & PO-TA-TOs of BM is still the +%Damage. Making it so you can TRAIT for +%Damage -OR- TRAIT for +Speed while not relying on a particular stance to get the full effect of the trait line is a positive step IMO.

However, like some others have posted, I'm concerned about the penalties of Bowmaster now applying to other stances as well (the +Power Cost anyway, since you removed the extra Threat). Dropping to Endurance has always been the go-to method of throttling power consumption, especially in a red-heavy build. From what it sounds like, putting more than 2 BM traits on is going to result in a flat power cost penalty no matter the stance, which bothers me a little.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Huntsman: While I knew that bringing up melee would pique peoples curiosity, I admit to being taken aback by how much negativity it generated... Before I say anymore, yes, I understand that Hunters do not use melee much. I believe that this is more because that there is little reason or benefit, not because it isn't exciting to switch between melee and ranged combat during a fight.

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I like the archetype of the archer character who's able to mix it up in your face with a fast and agile combat style, usually two light weapons. I end up playing one in every RPG that lets me. However in LOTRO it's just not been feasible because of:

1. Low default damage on melee skills
2. Few worthwhile melee legacies (the ones that are worthwhile do NOT affect damage)
3. Requirement to stack Might
4. Might -> Melee Offense "nerf" with Mirkwood

Those four factors all disincentivize melee combat to the point where most Hunters feel safe in ignoring "melee builds" completely: Use the skills for the buffs/debuffs/utility; don't rank DPS on melee LIs and use the points on ranged-based legacies; ignore or min-max Might out of a gear setup.

The result of course, is a feedback loop: melee damage is perceived as lousy -> build to emphasize ranged and ignore melee-boosting stats -> melee damage IS lousy.

However, that loop is also entirely justified! I know several experienced Hunters on these boards (like CWood) experimented with melee-heavy trait and gear setups pre-Mirkwood: max Might, dual-wield Axes to leverage the top-end crit mechanics, max melee legacies, etc. Result: "It still sucked." It's gotten "worse" since then because of the MOff and combat changes, and I say "worse" because most everyone gave up on it and drove everything into Ranged. It being better to play to your strengths than play to your weaknesses, when you can never ever overcome those weaknesses and even trying will cripple your strengths.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

However, it seems I did my job too well in the last update, many are rather fond of the state the Huntsman is in and do not want it changed. Such feedback has effected me, and I'm backing off from making the Huntsman a melee/ranged hybrid.

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I gotta say, thank you! I'm just loving Huntsman now, more so than ever before, and it's been my preferred trait line before there ever were trait lines. I was pretty worried that the increased melee abilities were going to come at the expense of Huntsman ranged abilities.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

That said, here are some details for what I was planning for the line: All melee skills grant focus, ranged skills increase melee damage while melee skills increase ranged damage (with applications/removals to encourage switching between ranged and melee at some kind of tempo - 10 seconds ranged buffed, 10 seconds melee buffed), extending Fleetness to buff melee, make quickshot usable while moving (ie: no induction). Basically, allow the class to fluidly swap between melee and ranged and gain benefits for doing so, while giving it even more mobility and induction-less attacks.

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I really like this proposal, especially the bit about all melee skills granting focus. Since the two throttles on Hunter DPS while in melee are Induction Setbacks and Melee Auto-Attacks, these changes reduce both. Using melee skills to power Focus shots will reduce the need for inductions in the first place, and the alternating ranged/melee damage buffs should smooth out some of the damage variance between hard-hitting Ranged skills and softer-hitting Melee skills and AAs. I'm curious how Fleetness would buff melee though - reduced cooldowns perhaps, rolling Fast Recovery into that skill?

Still a bit concerned though, as while I would certainly appreciate improvements to the rather dismal melee situation, I absolutely shudder at the thought of those improvements coming at the cost of the just-recently-promoted-to-"perfect" Huntsman sustained ranged DPS. In other words: I hope we don't "need" to use those melee-skill buffs to sustain similar levels of ranged damage. And I hope the intrinsic induction reductions in the HM line aren't reduced to compensate, as they are what makes Huntsman "feel" different from Bowmaster (to the point where, if I am heavily red-traited, I find myself getting frustrated at how ponderous these inductions are).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Trapper of Foes: "But you just made it awesome, don't nerf it!" Don't worry, I'm not changing Trapper to nerf it. When the last update hit, a lot of feedback on the line was focused on the damage reduction still being unappreciated, and penshot still not being what people hoped for. I intend on changing both of those. Further, the realities of endgame are that CC is often negated by boss mechanics, making a class that CC's focus on support through debuffs, buffs or restoration. The trapper will trade some of his straight CC for more generally applicable support abilities. Lastly, I'm going to try to add new trap mechanics in that make the Trapper more about traps!

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I remember you saying that you were purposely holding back on Trapper changes in the last update because of the line's potential to unbalance the class. I'm now officially super-excited that the line's two 800-lb gorillas are getting a look-see. I think there's a lot of promise here and I'm eager to hear more of the plans for ToF.

I mean my biggest complaint about the line (other than the obvious DPS hit and lolPenShot) has always been its focus on roots which are just about the worst possible form of CC imaginable, especially with the increasing usage of tactical-based mobs at endgame. I'd frankly love it if your new trap mechanics include things like traps that mez or stun instead of root (or both). Make them worthwhile, instead of something that's hardly ever a good use of time outside of very remote circumstances.

All in all, some very interesting stuff here and thank you for taking the time to share it!

Fears and stuns dont last long enough. I think they should be extended by at least 25%.
I want a trap that stuns.
I want a melee skill that stuns/slows and give a 2.5 second speed buff to allow for renewed ranged attacks.
I want traits to go beyond the present 10 cap.
I want pots that clear all wounds/fears, what have you, per use.
I want to be able to trait for further reducing induction times on certain skills.
I want to kite and shoot with decent dps.

I would be interested in bows that do different damage at different ranges, like shortbow-longbow.
If there is a "pet" in my future, make it a utility pet, not a buffing pet. (storage or tracking, in that line).

okay now ive seen zcs post i feel much better and now i want to make some possible suggestions and corrections towards my past posts

one when i say new skills i dont neccasarily mean ad new skills i mean make them inproved like improved swift bow

also someone mentioned they want traps that stun, we do its a crafted one tripwire ive used one on a lvl 50+ boss and he got cought and knocked out (best fight ive had with him)

on the topic of improved skills id like to purpose an improved BA (there may be a legacy for this already if there is plz say so) it would NOT NERF dmg for it or any others and would do a bleed or leach to the enemies power now this i would think would make it very usefull moors (not sure though since ive never done it before) plus if it was made i leach it would help making will/fate still important but allows for a bit more agility or even vit, now im probly abou to get yelled the heck at against this but i have talked to a 65 hunter in my kin and he liked the idea and i want to restate IT WOULD NOT NERF DAMAGE AT ALL

i would like at least one or two posts about the BA wether in be negative or postive

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FlyingNorseman

I think the better option is for you to stick with your original idea for the Huntsman to be a melee/ranged hybrid. How exactly will you explain how melee attacks increase focus? So I hit something with my sword for a bit and now all of a sudden I am better able to sheathe my sword, pull out a bow, knock and arrow and get off a higher damaging bow attack? Why?

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My thoughts exactly.

I am looking forward to checking out the changes. Precision FTW! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

Basically, allow the class to fluidly swap between melee and ranged and gain benefits for doing so, while giving it even more mobility and induction-less attacks.

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In theory, these would be a welcome direction shift in my eyes. The greatest underlying criticism of the Hunter class has always been the monotony of standing in one place and pew-pew'ing, rotating between only 3 skills the entire time. The latter part of that, in my opinion, has been very positively addressed the past couple updates. We have more viable DPS skills than ever. The first still applies. I agree more mobility/versatility for the class would be fun, on paper. I'm sure many of us had images of a mobile ranger type running through our heads when we first rolled the class, before MMO class archetypes of inductions & DPS parsing blocked out the forest for the trees.

The concern is that, while the Bowmaster line is a fun & perfectly viable trait line (I use it plenty), being able to fire off a bunch of shots in Precision while traited down the Huntsman line is a lot of fun, too. We don't want to lose that. If the two lines are consolidated into Bowmaster as sort of a "Stand here and blow it up" line, with Huntsman becoming the Mobility/Melee line, and Trapper remaining CC: ok, fine. Just make sure you don't lose all of what makes the Huntsman line fun.


Oh, and thank you Zombie, not just for the always-welcomed dev feedback, but for actually getting the class from a player's perspective.

I'm at work so I have not been through all of the responses but from what I can see, I agree with most of what I saw on the first 4 pages or so. Please, don't make us a melee class. That's just....wrong. Please don't take away the CC. Again, wrong. It looks like the idea is coming from a stance that all of us are of the same schools of thought and play style and that's simply not the case. Not everyone is constantly running endgame. Not everyone is a PvPer. Some of us like to play solo and be able to have a goodly amount of CC for survivability. I'll gladly sacrifice some DPS to be able to control 3 or 4 mobs at a time or even take down an elite when I have to, solo.

Please leave the hunters alone. Pretty please with Old Toby on top.

ZC thank you so much for coming here and sharing your thoughts and reading our feedback.

1) I think adding more melee DPS or adding new skills that do useful damage is a welcome idea. I like the idea of meele attacks generating focus.
2) some other posters mentioned no bow shots in ranged. PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS. I do not want this game to become wow, where i need to kite nonstop as my hunter. I hate that, and dont find it fun. . I enjoy standing in place shooting my bow at a mob. Kiting is ok for boss's and elites etc etc, but not always as a rule of thumb.

Just to give you additional feedback, I use Strength stance (4R/3B) exclusively for the landscape and questing. (3R/4B) Huntsman for Raiding/grouping like most everyone else, and the Trapper line has never appealed to me. Your enhancements for it sound awesome ! Some of the traits are nice and fun for leveling, but at the end game they are simply not good enough (My opinion and yours as well it seems).

Keep up the good work !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aestis25

The concern is that, while the Bowmaster line is a fun & perfectly viable trait line (I use it plenty), being able to fire off a bunch of shots in Precision while traited down the Huntsman line is a lot of fun, too. We don't want to lose that. If the two lines are consolidated into Bowmaster as sort of a "Stand here and blow it up" line, with Huntsman becoming the Mobility/Melee line, and Trapper remaining CC: ok, fine. Just make sure you don't lose all of what makes the Huntsman line fun.

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You must spread some reputation around blahblahblah

Well said.

Has anybody realized how hunters can be raid leaders alot of the time, in the moors atleast? I say, if we're gonna captain, we should prob get something in a line that gives every1 within a 10m radius +3 hope or sumtin :P
That'll be so totally awesome! /Squeal!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

[...] Next, I want to give a big thankyou to the whole Hunter community here. The debate and discussion has been very helpful! [...]

[...] Bowmaster: [...]

[...] Huntsman: [...]

[...] Trapper of Foes: [...]

[...] I think that's the important stuff. I'm going to be out for two weeks after this, so don't expect any more info any time soon. Please do continue discussing things, talking about what you want and don't want, and focus on examples, not hyperbole :)

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And again: We have to thank you ^^

I want...
...to have the possibility to trait for high dps through speed and focus generation (as currently huntsmen do)
...to have the possibility to use the above mentioned setting in raid enviroment,
without a major damage loss compared to bowmaster if i want to stay at range.
(because of the melee/ranged combination, you'd mantioned)
...to have a true utilltiy Line, your ideas for Trapper of Foes sound awesome. :)
...to have a quiver as legendary class item instead of the melee weapon (what are the odds to get that? I bet they are slim ^^).
...an alternative to the amber ring which i'm wearing since level 56.
...some traits removed and/or added as passive skills to have space for new ones (heightened senses for example).
...combined crit magnitude and powercost reduction legacies so they apply to both: induction and focus attacks
...more buffs which support ranged attacks (through other classes or self buffs)
...some true benefits from Stance: Endurance (Its pretty useless for the time being)
...to have "Bards Arrow" as a normal skill and get a new, true legendary skill.
...to get more advantages from "Bow of the Righteous" b/c its legendary (like the RK's "Martial Training" or the LM's "Sword and Staff")!
...some possibility for better threat managment.
...to be even faster than in full Huntsmen + Fleetness + Needful Haste (like the rush)

[Suggestion for some of my wishes]

• Maybe different speed through bow and crossbow?
• Maybe +0,5% crit chance or +1% damage for every focus point stored in Huntsmen?
• Maybe every crit in Huntsmen could lower the targets ranged defense to a certain point?
• Maybe a skill to appear in front of the enemy to hit him in melee range and automatically teleport
  back to the last position after that attack?
• Maybe remove class traits: "Heightened Senses", "Heart of the Bard" (A class trait which need a legendary skill, really?), Graceful Draw (does anyone use this trait or even endurance stance?)
• Maybe merge class traits: "Sturdy Traps" and "Combat Traps", "Strong Draw" and "Arrow Storm"

I don't want...
...to play with the slow Bowmaster line to deal high ranged damage in raids.
...to get hurt form the enemies AoE attacks because i run into melee range to benefit from the mentioned melee buffs in Huntsmen.
...useless legacies on the legendary items (for example: moralregeneration during strenght of the earth)
...Huntsmen as a solo build. Because i got a a focus consuming, swift and ranged playstyle. Don't take that away through nasty melee attacks.

In generel i love your ideas and I'm glad that you're in control now, ZC.

I don't like Bowmaster (as written: to slow) but there are denfinitely some nice buffs coming up.

What you'd planed for Huntsmen will be awesome for PvP and Solo Hunters.
I hope you won't forget the ones who want to Raid with Huntmen (swiftly, yay :D).

I'm looking forward to the new trapper of foes, as said: awesome!
Don't have an idea for that, but: Some sort of unique group support skill in ToF would be cool,
so a yellow hunter will be desired in group play.

PS: At the moment the powerconsum in Huntsmen feels higher than in Bowmaster.

Forage skill:
Hunters need abilty to forage for food. Wild mushrooms, asparagus, leeks, ramps, etc...things only obtainable by hunters..... for self buffs and group buffs....also medical foraging for weeds and medicinal plants for group buffs such as resists, antidotes, etc....

We need to be more suitable and desirable for group play in instances:
Need to make hunters tracking more desirable and useful to groups and raids, able to detect traps(should be implemented to make hunters needed in more instances), are survival skills need to be better implemented for group support.

Poison Removal:
We need to make group poison removal not dependant on equipping a trait. It needs to be something given at lvl 65 for our support requirement in groups and raids.

Pet:
Hunters should be able to have a hunting companion such as a dogs, birds of prey(falconry), ferrets, etc.....

New Class Items:
Caltrops need to be a class weapon for hunter...would along lines of trap but instead of rooting just used to do damage and movement debuff.
Poison doing DOT and power debuffs to enemies.

Better Implementaion of DOT attacks...we need bleed, fire, light DOT attacks to be more powerful and noticeable. Also we need the abilty to use poisons as dot attacks. Poisons should be a hunter class item.

LVL 65 in combat speed buff

also a better out of combat speed buff at lvl 65

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trogg

Forage skill:
Hunters need abilty to forage for food. Wild mushrooms, asparagus, leeks, ramps, etc...things only obtainable by hunters..... for self buffs and group buffs....also medical foraging for weeds and medicinal plants for group buffs such as resists, antidotes, etc....

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Very good idea, I like this alot... would love to see this

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trogg

Pet:
Hunters should be able to have a hunting companion such as a dogs, birds of prey(falconry), ferrets, etc.....

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This is not another MMO, I do not want this to be another MMO. Please don't make this another MMO. Keep it LotRO. Pets are for LM and/or Captains. I don't want to HAVE to manage this on hunter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trogg

New Class Items:
Caltrops need to be a class weapon for hunter...would along lines of trap but instead of rooting just used to do damage and movement debuff.
Poison doing DOT and power debuffs to enemies.

Better Implementaion of DOT attacks...we need bleed, fire, light DOT attacks to be more powerful and noticeable. Also we need the abilty to use poisons as dot attacks. Poisons should be a hunter class item.

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This was stated awhile ago but poison will never be usable by the free peoples.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trogg

Forage skill:
Hunters need abilty to forage for food. Wild mushrooms, asparagus, leeks, ramps, etc...things only obtainable by hunters..... for self buffs and group buffs....also medical foraging for weeds and medicinal plants for group buffs such as resists, antidotes, etc....

We need to be more suitable and desirable for group play in instances:
Need to make hunters tracking more desirable and useful to groups and raids, able to detect traps(should be implemented to make hunters needed in more instances), are survival skills need to be better implemented for group support.

Poison Removal:
We need to make group poison removal not dependant on equipping a trait. It needs to be something given at lvl 65 for our support requirement in groups and raids.

Pet:
Hunters should be able to have a hunting companion such as a dogs, birds of prey(falconry), ferrets, etc.....

New Class Items:
Caltrops need to be a class weapon for hunter...would along lines of trap but instead of rooting just used to do damage and movement debuff.
Poison doing DOT and power debuffs to enemies.

Better Implementaion of DOT attacks...we need bleed, fire, light DOT attacks to be more powerful and noticeable. Also we need the abilty to use poisons as dot attacks. Poisons should be a hunter class item.

LVL 65 in combat speed buff

also a better out of combat speed buff at lvl 65

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I don't think more buffs are needed, and I don't think a forage skill would be that great for what it would take to implement.

Hunters are DPS, Lore Masters are the support. If you want to be a support and not DPS, then you need to trait for support.

There are soooooooooo many threads on pets, look them up sometime. But, just no.

Caltrops are pretty much like what burglar's have, the cool down on them makes the worthless.

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Originally Posted by Thorgrum

Being new to the game I cant articulate discussion to the degree a lot of you have, you have been playing longer then I. What baffles me about the hunter is when a mob gets to close range my stongest attack is still a bow shot (at lvl 19 anyway). This dosent seem logical at all, particularly if the intent was and is to model the class after legalos.

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I'm not sure which Legolas you are referring to, but I prefer the Legolas from the movie. If a mob comes in melee range, take your arrow and poke it in their eye and/or throat. I guess that's more Bow & Arrow than Bow & Blade...

;)

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Originally Posted by NotYetMeasured

I'm not sure which Legolas you are referring to, but I prefer the Legolas from the movie. If a mob comes in melee range, take your arrow and poke it in their eye and/or throat. I guess that's more Bow & Arrow than Bow & Blade...

;)

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Blindside! best animation in the game. *stab in eye with arrow*

stop messing around with changing the same class over and over and get working on new pvp classes/maps geez

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Originally Posted by Lithium777

Blindside! best animation in the game. *stab in eye with arrow*

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Needs to really be blindside :p

Speaking of Legolas.... just where exactly, in either the book or movie, did he put down a trap???

Btw, ZC, since you're looking strongly at Hunter and what to do with it, may I also suggest looking at hunter gear. No, not just LI's or armour, but also other gear. I get sick and tired of seeing a nice piece of jewellery that has +tactical crit (esp that +6%) over and over and over and over and over again..... yeah, great for healers (who is going to be against that), and RK's must simply love the extra DPS they can do - but when is there going to be a similar amount of jewellery that has +RCrit or +Rdam?? Do RK's really need some nice shiny bling to compensate for something much smaller...????

Just going to throw in another thing, the first time I played my hunter during the introduction I died several times. Why? Well, the mobs got into close range and as such it was logical for me to change into melee. After a couple of levels I found out I should just stay in ranged mode all the time, as such I could just press 1-2-3-4-REPEAT (QS -> Barbed Arrow -> Swift Bow -> Penetrating shot) if I wanted too.

Now that you have given us a bit more information about the direction you want to go I like the idea of the melee building focus. It sounds like you want to give the hunter community the chance to "stance dance" to make us more adaptable in battle. I can get behind that philosophy IF>> you change your thoughts on huntsman. Leave it as it stands, the fast consistant dps TRAIT LINE that many have fallen in love with. Change the Bow and Blade hunter to the Endurance STANCE and you will make many of us very happy.

I will quickly rehash my previous post because I think it illustrates the perfect way to blend in the Bow and Blade hunter into every hunter's rotation at some point in the game. Endurance is, by far, the least used stance by hunters. I almost never run it anymore with the changes that were made duing last book. It needs some love.

Endurance is the ideal way to let a hunter go toe to toe with mobs. Hell, even the name screams, "I will stand my ground!" When in Endurance STANCE the hunter receives +25% damage to all melee skills, +25% to +50% bonus to armor (can use a traitline skill to bump it up for those who want it), -25% threat reduction, and -15% ranged damage.

This makes it the anti strength stance, you drop to it to reduce your threat but get a 30% penalty to ranged by doing so. This will also make it a great way to build back focus with the plans on making melee attacks generate focus. Many hunters who do use endurance have been running in S:S and have either run out of power or hit the theat cap. They use endurance stance to "reset" S:S. By making these changes it would allow this to happen much quicker, and give the dual wielding crowd a stance to run in prementantly if they choose.

The buffs make off tanking viable compared to optimal. It will not overpower a hunter to take the role of a guard, warden or cappie since we have no means to block attacks. It will allow the healers a bit of extra time to breathe a bit when a big baddie jumps on the hunter because the hunter has the ability to shed that threat plus a bit more survivability with the extra armor added. The hunter should pay a price to ranged attacks while in melee mode, but it is offset by the chance to get rid of some unwanted threat as well.

This change will keep the TRAIT LINES intact, and allow the hunter to be more deliberate in managing threat. Since it is a STANCE we will not be running to the bard nearest you to retrait all the time. It makes it a choice for hunters, even if you don't want to melee you get the threat reduction, and the -15% ranged hit will also lower your chances of climbing the threat ladder while in Endurance. Hunters that want to wade in with blades flashing can get a bonus for doing so. I humbly submit this idea as something that can make the class better by creating a useful stance rather than tearing apart a trait line many here love and would hate to see changed.

Oh.. make tracking invisible mobs innate at level 60, we are hunters after all. And.. do something with Bow of the Righteous it is anything but legendary. Give it more power return or revamp the skill. As it stands it is not worthy of its name.

Tydalmir

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Originally Posted by Lithium777

Blindside! best animation in the game. *stab in eye with arrow*

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Ha ha, now I have to look more closely the next time I use that skill.


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Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

::cracks knuckles::
Huntsman: While I knew that bringing up melee would pique peoples curiosity, I admit to being taken aback by how much negativity it generated. Legolas quickly dispatching enemies at range and in melee is the archtype the class was built on and one that many still identify with. A monthly update was not enough time to make the kind that would bring the Huntsman up to a Legolas standard, but an expansion is. Before I say anymore, yes, I understand that Hunters do not use melee much. I believe that this is more because that there is little reason or benefit, not because it isn't exciting to switch between melee and ranged combat during a fight. However, it seems I did my job too well in the last update, many are rather fond of the state the Huntsman is in and do not want it changed. Such feedback has effected me, and I'm backing off from making the Huntsman a melee/ranged hybrid. Instead, minor edits like Bowmaster will be made, mainly removing traits that effect specific stances.
That said, here are some details for what I was planning for the line: All melee skills grant focus, ranged skills increase melee damage while melee skills increase ranged damage (with applications/removals to encourage switching between ranged and melee at some kind of tempo - 10 seconds ranged buffed, 10 seconds melee buffed), extending Fleetness to buff melee, make quickshot usable while moving (ie: no induction). Basically, allow the class to fluidly swap between melee and ranged and gain benefits for doing so, while giving it even more mobility and induction-less attacks.

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I LOVE this idea, but we need a low aggro way to deal lots of DPS. How about you do ALL of the plans you just laid out, and instead bring back fleet stance, because quite frankly, that's what fleet stance should have been.

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Trapper of Foes: "But you just made it awesome, don't nerf it!" Don't worry, I'm not changing Trapper to nerf it. When the last update hit, a lot of feedback on the line was focused on the damage reduction still being unappreciated, and penshot still not being what people hoped for. I intend on changing both of those. Further, the realities of endgame are that CC is often negated by boss mechanics, making a class that CC's focus on support through debuffs, buffs or restoration. The trapper will trade some of his straight CC for more generally applicable support abilities. Lastly, I'm going to try to add new trap mechanics in that make the Trapper more about traps!

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Take care not to make us LM clones, but a different flavor of buffs.

i like the idea of less inductions on skills (as long as dmg isnt nerfed)i realy like what u (or maybe it was a dif dev) did wiht pen shot and the lesser inducs will helpwhen i accidently 4 enemies making any skill with an induction horrible to use (this ofcourse is if needful haste is on cooldown)

Don't listen to all these melee hunter haters ZC.

I don't know if all these anti-melee hunters are constantly running to their 40m range or what, but that's gotta be pretty cumbersome on play, and just plain silly. I won't do that. I REFUSE to do that. Okay... I often do that. :rolleyes:

But frankly, while soloing I'd rather not always get into maximum range so I can down a mob before it gets to me. If I'm rolling along I don't always want to focus up, lay traps, etc... I'd rather get right in the action. If I'm in a field of mobs or there is a mob I need to take out that is closer, even with my well-honed rotation, I'm going to be doing some melee with it, and frankly I'd like those skills to be better.

If I pull multiple mobs, sure I can do some CC (traps, fears, short stuns), but chances are the thing will be back in melee range before I get to it, and you know what I DON'T always want to fear the thing away or root it, and then run to range or sit around twiddling my thumbs till I have some distance to fill it full of arrows.

And sometimes it's just advantageous to be in melee range. No I don't waste my Blindside for focus pips, IF I know I'm fighting a mob that I'll need the Blindside interrupt for (which is one great reason to be in melee range on occasion).

So yes Zombie, your ideas of giving hunters the ability to more easily and naturally switch between ranged and melee with more effective melee skills, sounds like a GREAT idea. I'm all for it.

One melee skill (addition to a melee skill) I'd like to see, is one that reduces our threat when used.

This is unimportant when we are soloing, we will always have top threat.

But when in groups. If you pull aggro and a mob closes within melee range, it would be nice to have a melee attack that helps us reduce our threat, so the tank can more easily grab it back.

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Originally Posted by FoxFire

One melee skill (addition to a melee skill) I'd like to see, is one that reduces our threat when used.

This is unimportant when we are soloing, we will always have top threat.

But when in groups. If you pull aggro and a mob closes within melee range, it would be nice to have a melee attack that helps us reduce our threat, so the tank can more easily grab it back.

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That's a pretty good idea.

I do not have anything against using melee skills if I am in melee range, but:
I just want to use those skills to get a benefit for my next few range attacks. eg: gain focus or maybe the next induction cant be broken, or mezz an enemy so I can do the next range attack etc.
I would not be forced to use melee attacks, because they are making more damage than my range attacks. <- and this was/is my reason to say: I do not want to be an hybrid melee/range hunter in the huntsman traitline.

P.S. While you're at it.... Why don't snare-trap bleeds stack? They aren't all that powerful to begin with, and it's not often you're running around with more than a couple of hunters anyhow. So... can't you let those snare bleeds stack?

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Originally Posted by FoxFire

P.S. While you're at it.... Why don't snare-trap bleeds stack? They aren't all that powerful to begin with, and it's not often you're running around with more than a couple of hunters anyhow. So... can't you let those snare bleeds stack?

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Yes, please.

+1

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Originally Posted by FoxFire

Don't listen to all these melee hunter haters ZC.

I don't know if all these anti-melee hunters are constantly running to their 40m range or what, but that's gotta be pretty cumbersome on play, and just plain silly. I won't do that. I REFUSE to do that. Okay... I often do that. :rolleyes:

But frankly, while soloing I'd rather not always get into maximum range so I can down a mob before it gets to me. If I'm rolling along I don't always want to focus up, lay traps, etc... I'd rather get right in the action. If I'm in a field of mobs or there is a mob I need to take out that is closer, even with my well-honed rotation, I'm going to be doing some melee with it, and frankly I'd like those skills to be better.

If I pull multiple mobs, sure I can do some CC (traps, fears, short stuns), but chances are the thing will be back in melee range before I get to it, and you know what I DON'T always want to fear the thing away or root it, and then run to range or sit around twiddling my thumbs till I have some distance to fill it full of arrows.

And sometimes it's just advantageous to be in melee range. No I don't waste my Blindside for focus pips, IF I know I'm fighting a mob that I'll need the Blindside interrupt for (which is one great reason to be in melee range on occasion).

So yes Zombie, your ideas of giving hunters the ability to more easily and naturally switch between ranged and melee with more effective melee skills, sounds like a GREAT idea. I'm all for it.

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Agreed. I'd love some more melee utility. Having more utility doesn't mean I have to be in melee range more. It just means that if I am, I can actually get my weapons out that are just dangling there, looking pretty, and helping my stats and do some real damage, instead of hoping Needful Haste is up so I can get some ranged inductions off. I really don't see what all of the anti-melee fuss is about. /shrug

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Originally Posted by FoxFire

One melee skill (addition to a melee skill) I'd like to see, is one that reduces our threat when used.

This is unimportant when we are soloing, we will always have top threat.

But when in groups. If you pull aggro and a mob closes within melee range, it would be nice to have a melee attack that helps us reduce our threat, so the tank can more easily grab it back.

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I like this, for when I'm running around with my husband's Champ. I bet it would help when I'm running solo skirmishes with my stupid Protector, too. He does a pretty good job in duo+ skirmishes, but I want to kick him during solos. What I wouldn't give for a soldier reset option, so I could put a few thousand points towards leveling something else.

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Originally Posted by trogg

Poison Removal:
We need to make group poison removal not dependant on equipping a trait. It needs to be something given at lvl 65 for our support requirement in groups and raids.

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It can remain tied to traits, just make it part of a single slotted trait, OR at most part of a 2 equipped trait bonus. But the current 4 Deep into ToF is WAY too much (there are plenty of times we need group poison removal that wouldn't lend us to also being in the ToF line).

Also, yeah the poison removal animation is much too long. Maybe if it were shorter we wouldn't need a group poison removal as badly.

While I think I would enjoy more melee utility I wouldn't really want to be a hybrid ranged/melee. I was one of those hunters who tried the melee thing back in the day and I did run with axes. It wasn't terrible to be honest but I didn't enjoy it. I think what I'm seeing is people stressing the utility part which to me means things like the focus on Blindside extra parry on swift strike etc. So I'm all for more stuff like that.

What I would give for a knockback to put a mob back at range and not require me to move.....

Traited mostly huntsman and I do run enduring precision. I like speed. If there's any merging of BM and Hunstman skills so that Hunstman can be the hybrid melee/ranged then don't jack with the lowering of inductions. I like the speed and the thing I dislike most is sitting there watching a progress bar. I'm pretty sure I give up some dps by not running deeper in BM but I'd give that up for the lower inductions any day of the week.

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Originally Posted by Lycaunoss

What I would give for a knockback to put a mob back at range and not require me to move.....

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I made a proposal not long ago to have a new hunter skill that would allow us to 'Jump Back', out of melee range while also getting off a shot. (Perhaps even a melee hit + midair shot).

This would be useful for grouping when you are in melee range and your tank gets aggro, so that you can get back out of a mob's standard melee AoE range, without losing a beat in your DPS.

Yes, this skill would separate the skilled hunter from the ???????, in that you would have to have good situational/positional awareness, so that you don't jump back into something dangerous or into the aggro range of another mob. And it will just make us THAT much cooler (especially if they gave it a sweet animation - like a back flip or something :D)

(Haha, I can't believe that word gets censored out. Weird. Okay let's say huntorally-challenged :p)

Ok, I really would like to see a true trap... one that dangles the target like a strangling tentacle from the watcher.

poison removal... i would SO TOTALLY approve making the group version into a slottable class trait. i personally like the single target remove 3 poisons no cooldown version... many people prefere the groupwaide removal with a 30 second cooldown. this would allow for more diversity in hunter builds.

i do not want to be forced into a 30 second cooldown poison removal for shallow traiting into trapper... or ever, for that matter

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Originally Posted by Tarasque

Ok, I really would like to see a true trap... one that dangles the target like a strangling tentacle from the watcher.

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why not? how many times in movies and cartoons have we seen someone tie a lasso to a tree? then some guy steps into the losso and is hoisted up into the air, upside down!

Isn't it a little bit naive to think, a massive change in the hunter mechanics would only result in upsides with no downsides?

A shift to more powerful melee will result in diminished ranged ability. Like we had it several times before, with damage vs speed, speed vs power consumption, threat vs damage and so on.

My understanding of the hunter is to avoid melee at all costs. Kill the enemy before it gets to you. Trap it, slow it, mezz it, fear it. Get a feeling for induction CC that when it comes near you, it hasn't a chance to do you any harm.

If you want to improve hunters for no reason than making them stronger, simply improve the damage. Improve the attack speed, give him a real aggro dump. Remove those fancy unused legacies.

Maybe it is fun playing a melee/ranged class. Perhaps a new idea for a new class?

@ZC: Thanks for the clarification.

Bowmaster - I like the idea of this trait line being stance independent.

Huntsmen - As I've said before I love the DDO ranger (and also how RIFT rogues play). I've never thought of hunters as anti-melee, but as excelling as single target damage dealers. Hunter melee is very viable up until around level 35 when it start to lag behind. Having a more fast paced roguish feel to the class would be a lot of fun. Something should be just as afraid to get in melee range as they are standing within LoS range. Your idea of bow and melee skills building on each other sounds good on paper. I'm looking forward to how this pans out.

Trapper - I've always wanted to like this trait line and using traps in general, but they've never worked out when BM or HM can do the job just as effectively with less expense and greater efficiency. We've talked about different options for traps before (traps as skills on independent timers with a single common crafted component, etc). I would love to see a more versatile trap and buff/debuff focus in this trait line.

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One thing a lot of people like about huntsmen is the reduced skill timers (induction, etc). Maybe there could be a way for someone to trait for reduced skill times in any trait line. I think the reason behind this is because long inductions and long cooldowns aren't as fun as faster skills. When inductions, cooldowns, and skill times are shorter it gives a class a more action-oriented feel to it. That is the main reason I think people love Huntsmen; that and they can keep up good numbers while getting that faster paced feel.

Anyway, I'm sure you, Orion, and Gx2 will do a fine job. Class play in this game is one of its greatest strengths imo.

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Originally Posted by Nelavor

Isn't it a little bit naive to think, a massive change in the hunter mechanics would only result in upsides with no downsides?

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Basically.

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Originally Posted by Nelavor

Maybe it is fun playing a melee/ranged class. Perhaps a new idea for a new class?

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It would be, I'd love to play a class like this...however not the hunter.

i came up wiht this idea when when i was playing wiht knifes and main reason im suggesting is it would look so cool

what if we had skill that when the enemy falls below like 600hp (im 54 so ofcourse this # would increase wiht the lvl of enemies) u run fast get behind it and slice its throat i mean just picture that move it would be awesome and it could do like 400dmg or 200 and if if u go for lower dmg it could cuz i strong bleed or give u a buff

Ok, so I have been delayed posting, due to a busy weekend, and I have finally read this entire thread.

I must admit that my first reaction to the "Bow and Blade warrior" hint by ZC was "oh no! Not my favorite line!" However, after pondering and reading the second post (which granted, my delay benefited my hindsight), I can see great benefits to the ideas ZC has laid out. As I see it, there are pros and cons to the proposed changes.

Pros:
1. The hunter has always lacked the melée abilities the description claimed it would have. This would remedy that.

2. Hunters that enjoy soloing Rare named mobs might now be able to do so if the mob is CC immune, which is a pain atm

3. Hunters in 3-man and 6-man instances might see some improvement in off-tanking abilities, which would enhance their roles as the healer-protector.

4. PvMP might be easier, and these changes might enhance the hunter to have a strategy besides Camo+BH+HS.

5. The use of melée skills to build focus and an inductionless Quick Shot sounds great for kiting and building focus on the run, and building focus has always been an important aspect of the Huntsman line.

6. Alternating buffs as ZC mentioned would provide a more dynamic playstyle for the hunter, increasing the difficulty and making the good hunters stand out from everyone else.

Cons:
1. Hunters use Huntsman now because they like to shoot things really fast. I personally run 2/5/0 without the blue capstone usually, and with a full set of Hele armor. I feel so fast, and it's a rush! I would be saddened if my -induction bonuses went away. I also use the Focus Burn method, as I'm sure many of you here do, and the Huntsman line has many traits that are great for building Focus back up after it is used. Losing those would render a tried and true (not to mention loved) method useless.

2. The Huntsman line is the usual raid line, though I tend not to use Bowmaster at all even solo. I prefer the feel of the fast shots. Messing up the grouping line could affect the entire game.

3. Might is almost ignored or eliminated from most hunters' gear. It is my lowest or second lowest stat, depending on my jewelry setup for the situation. Melée offense comes a the expense of ranged offense on most jewelry. Therefore, even if you did buff our melée, unless we build our stats back up, we won't really notice the difference.?

4. Though these changes could potentially be great for PvMP, the devs maintain that they tend not to make decisions based on the effect changes will have on PvMP. I believe they try to balance PvMP from the creepside.

There are a lot of things to consider in these changes. Looking attempt pros vs the cons, I would like to see more melée incorporated, but not at the expense of the speed I am accustomed to.

Overall, I was very impressed with the update last time, especially considering how often the nerf-bat hits us. I had a laundry list of things in a thread a few months back (http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...28#post5155828) and almost all of my requests were met. I will put the remaining ones here for further discussion:

"Our group usefulness would be greatly increased by having the fellowship-wide poison removal, but our utility could be even greater. Hunters are crackshots, or at least they should be. What about different shots designed to impede our foes in combat? Parry debuffs are present in Enedwaith, how about letting us in on that action? Or disarms, like the ranged disarm present in orcs in Mirkwood. There are precedents, and there are no disarm skills for any class currently present in the game. This could greatly enhance our grouping ability, as dps classes often serve two roles (champs can transfer aggro, RKs can heal)."

"8. Make it so Strength of the Earth doesn't get interrupted by every breath of wind in the forest. That is all about that. Love the skill, best power regen in the game. Please never nerf it. "

I feel that it in fact was nerfed. It returns about a third of the power it did before, and the bonus to morale regen isn't worth it for such a short channel. It also still gets interrupted very easily. It was the only thing that saddened me about the update.

"9. Strong Traps trait should make it so that my traps DO NOT AT ALL let my prey out when I am shooting them. I personally believe that my traps shouldn't release them anyway, as I would hope that I am not shooting my prey's feet, but rather their head and heart like a good archer would. Every time something escapes my trap because I hit it, it insults me, as it implies I was a terrible shot. :P

10. Trapper of Foes could include a traitline bonus that allows us to move slowly in Camouflage. No bonuses to attack out of it, as we don't want to be burgs. Just make us a little more "hunter-ish""


To sum it up, ZC, you are my favorite dev and I trust you. Do what you will, and I will keep playing the class.

Gad damn it! The morons whining wins again! ZC, if he's still at Turbine go ask Sporkfire what happened to Planetside when they listen to a bunch of whiny brats who threw a tantrum because a change to give options and got the change reversed. I'll give you a hint - Planetside went from 3 servers and possible reactivating another one to barely 1 server in less than a year afterwards. If people whine about a change that gives options, especially when the change isn't even off the drawing board, those are the people you do not want to listen to. For all they knew your changes could have left Huntsman exactly as it was (ie NO CHANGE TO RANGED DAMAGE) and just added the extra damage to melee. Instead they started screaming worse than the most spoiled 4 year old you have seen when their parent tells them they get no desert until they eat the food they ordered.

Especially when you had changes like those. Want to play an archer go Bow Master (isn't the name a big enough hint?) or stay at range. Want to play a Huntsman then you need to learn when to stay at range, when to go melee, and when to swap between them. Please do not listen to these people in the future. It really stinks to keep seeing good ideas torn to pieces because some whiny brat can't handle the concept of their way not being the "best" way to play.