Massively Helm's Deep news and pictures!!!

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Originally Posted by monk_tbd

Not sure i understand.
There are arguably two or three traits per line that one would call "best" for a class which you maybe cannot get anymore in a single build.
If they would have changed the current system so that choosing two "best" traits from different lines would cause penalties so big that you would do yourself a disservice to do it then you likely would not.
While you wold still have the choice it would basically also move you into the direction of a cookie cutter build. I am aware it leads to cookie cutter builds.

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Then we're in agreement, aren't we? Hasn't turbine said that the reason they are doing this, at least one of the reasons, is because they feel that too many people are using the same build and they believe this will way will lead to more customization? That's where the break in the logic for me is.. How long will it take us to very quickly identify which combination of point-spend will yield the best results? LIke probably Day 2 of launch. And in Day 2 and 2 minutes, it'll be posted here and we'll all start traiting that way - generally and out goes, nearly instantly, one of the main reasons they did this, all for nothing did they destroy one of the great things about LOTRO's customization, most admittedly flawed though it was.

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At least if you spec into a certain role.
A lot of minis heal currently with 4y/3b. Some use 4b/3y. Some like the blue traits.
I like my 4y/3b. I expect this not to work as good anymore with the revamp i.e. I likely will not be able to get anthem duration and cd to the same levels without giving up more healing (which I already did anyway by not having 4 blues).
Something like this will happen to all classes.

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Sure, I'm the same with my hunter. But we don't need to go to trait trees to accomplish this, this can be achieved by revamping the traits themselves. Nor will going to trait trees get you out of your 4/3. It may be that it changes the traits themselves, but the ratio could still be the same, or you simply find a different combination to meet the same ends that the 4/3 met.

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You need to see that the revamp is not done for long term players but also for players coming new to the game.

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I do see that most definitely. I do not think that's a good thing.

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So what is your point then? Toon development past 60 should be just LI and gear grind?

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Isn't that obvious? Invest the money in endgame to retain your players, rather than rehash and reshuffle old content to constantly churn new ones.

That use of Massively by the incorrect image with placeholder TP icons, has generated huge amounts of unnecessary bad vibes.

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Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

That's where the break in the logic for me is.. How long will it take us to very quickly identify which combination of point-spend will yield the best results?

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they will probably be gating whole rolls behind trait lines. for example, champion. single-target dps, aoe, tank. a single-target champ will not be able to do any aoe. the aoe champ will do a little single-target but not nearly anything like the red champ. and ofc, tank.

in that, you can never ever say one line is better than another. the points in the line you probably could, and what you off-spec too will be personal choice of what you need a little off.

with retraiting still costing just silver and being able to be done on the fly. I assume we'll be quickly retraiting from trash to boss a lot. ofc, the aoe champs not great on a single boss. but all the adds before it will have needed aoe. Big battles will probably love aoe too.

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Invest the money in endgame to retain your players, rather than rehash and reshuffle old content to constantly churn new ones.

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instance cluster are the most expensive development process in an mmo. to churn them out regularly, we've seen they fall behind with time scheduals and end up comeing out very buggy in the process.

I think we have enough scaled content now, I agree. there are so many possibilities for new raids and fights. but content gets "out leveled" the content that spent ages to make is not wasted as soon as they level up. so making an investment to scale some of these up has made sure when we pop into a new expansion, there is always something different we could be doing, even is thats repeating an instances we've not done in months for a laugh.

I think atm it's more difficulty and the reward system that needs a look at. we have enough content and it'll feel newish with revamped classes for a month or 2. erebor cluster wasn't fun, but it didn't help the rewards were also terrible. such a kick in the teeth at what we've all been waiting for.

I would also like to add that the architecture at helms deep looks suspiciously like Isengard.

I think at least they could have used a few different shades of gray for HD.

http://www.blogcdn.com/massively.joy...kPnDeScynj.jpg

Honestly I'm a bit worried the closer I look at this new trait tree ... The TP & Mithril coin icons tell me that having multiple characters is going to become pretty expensive in the future.

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Originally Posted by Minquinn

I would also like to add that the architecture at helms deep looks suspiciously like Isengard.

I think at least they could have used a few different shades of gray for HD.

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Weren't they both meant to be fortresses built by the Numenoreans to guard the Fords of Isen from the North and South?

It might be odd if they were too different...?

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Originally Posted by Zombielord

Honestly I'm a bit worried the closer I look at this new trait tree ... The TP & Mithril coin icons tell me that having multiple characters is going to become pretty expensive in the future.

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sapience said on facebook the screenshots they used were not the correct bunch.

here is an example of what it really looks like from sapience. (quote later)

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/x...pse211690b.png

the bar at the left side is probably set bonuses.

the bar at the right is probably how many save slots you get. not sure if thats how many you get default as we've been told 2 free, maybe they bought some.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

Actually it's not. We stated repeatedly to the press (I know, I was there and actually typed it out in explicit detail) that the in game screen we showed them at the time of their preview was place holder and that the turbine point icons on the left hand column were entirely place holder art and would be replaced in the next build. Which we sent them a screenshot for.

THIS is the correct screen shot that we sent them after the tour. The skills on the left unlock as you progress through the trees. They're not gated by Turbine Points.

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Originally Posted by Zombielord

http://www.blogcdn.com/massively.joy...kPnDeScynj.jpg

Honestly I'm a bit worried the closer I look at this new trait tree ... The TP & Mithril coin icons tell me that having multiple characters is going to become pretty expensive in the future.

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You should have a read of Sapience's post.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

THIS is the correct screen shot that we sent them after the tour. The skills on the left unlock as you progress through the trees. They're not gated by Turbine Points.

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I've noticed that the icon on the right is a Mithril Coin icon instead of a Turbine Point icon for the additional Tab purchase. This leads me to think that the tabs will be a character unlock instead of an account unlock. Why aren't these being handled the same way as war-steed trait config tabs?

First off, if you read the thread you'd know those were placeholder icons and that massively used an old screen shot. Second, the mithril coin icon is only present in the saved spec line. We've known for a long, long time that we were going to have 2 free save slots, just like with MC, and that the rest would have to be unlocked with either tp or mithril. Looks like they may have chosen mithril, though that may change before live and become tp. If they keep mithril then it won't cost many players a dime to unlock all the save slots, as many established players have more mithril coins than they known what to do with. Even for those of us who either never had many coins, or like me found a way to spend them(I'm looking at you travel-to-quest-giver icon as I leveled far too many alts), it won't be a big imposition. With 2 saved specs most people will be perfectly set. For those of us who decide we can't get by with just 2 specs we still have the option of keeping one saved spec and using the other as a reset pt/respec slot for whatever untoward situations arise. Many may choose to unlock a third, fourth, of even fifth slot, but that is purely a matter of choice, of paying for a luxury or convenience. Show me proof in our one little picture of any further attempt to monetize the trait trees and we can have an earnest discussion, but beyond the regrettable choice of place holder icons in the massively pic, it seems people are making a huge issue out of absolutely nothing.

In any event people get too hyped up about the store. Except for the moors the store and lotro is really just pay for convenience rather than the dreaded pay to win cash grab that people freak out about. Say it with me, "TP does not equal the devil"

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Originally Posted by thefamilyosc

Looks like they may have chosen mithril, though that may change before live and become tp. If they keep mithril then it won't cost many players a dime to unlock all the save slots, as many established players have more mithril coins than they known what to do with.

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Just because I have a lot of mithril coins, doesnt mean I wouldnt prefer an account-wide unlock option to a character-level option that mithril seems used for.

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Originally Posted by Minquinn

I would also like to add that the architecture at helms deep looks suspiciously like Isengard.

I think at least they could have used a few different shades of gray for HD.

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I need a lore-junkie to correct me on this but....
Isengard used to be a guard tower for Rohan, and was probably built around the same time as Helms Deep was.
So its pretty lore-accurate that they are similar in architecture.

But Helm's Deep just looks too colorful to me.... Perhaps it will look better at night

Nope, Isengard was build by the Numenoreans shortly after the fall. As their kingdom weakened they let Saruman use it, figuring it would be better to have an ally occupy it, ooops. As for a similarity in architecture I really don't see it I guess. Maybe a little bit in the color palette, but hard to do much differently when you're talking about using stone. The actual tower of orthanc was some form of nearly impervious jet-black stone, but the surrounding walls would ahve been quarried from stone nearby. Not too much of a stretch to assume that the stone used for building the Hornburg thousands of years later would have been quarried from very similar types of stone given their relative proximity.

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Originally Posted by angrolas

I need a lore-junkie to correct me on this but....
Isengard used to be a guard tower for Rohan, and was probably built around the same time as Helms Deep was.
So its pretty lore-accurate that they are similar in architecture.

But Helm's Deep just looks too colorful to me.... Perhaps it will look better at night

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Normally I won't argue with a Kinnie but it was built by Gondor I believe.

That doesn't excuse the lazy design we have been getting lately.

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Originally Posted by angrolas

I need a lore-junkie to correct me on this but....
Isengard used to be a guard tower for Rohan, and was probably built around the same time as Helms Deep was.
So its pretty lore-accurate that they are similar in architecture.

But Helm's Deep just looks too colorful to me.... Perhaps it will look better at night

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I *think* they were build by completely differant people. dunadain built isenguard, old rohirrim (more like gondor) built hornborg.

but tbh, though battles I *think* it would have been remade from the same rock quarries that isen got made from. so the stones and maybe who made finishing touches on them might have been the same poeple

the rocks also might look dark and that style because of the lighting, the last picture has it looking quite a bit differant tbh.

can't tell till we see it ourselves but I wouldn't be surprised if it's rehashed textures.

Isengard : http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/t/toweroforthanc.html

Hornburg : http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/a/aglarond.html

Both seem to be Gondorian in origin

I stand corrected about the Hornburg, though my original pt about the source of the stone still holds.

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

I *think* they were build by completely differant people. dunadain built isenguard, old rohirrim (more like gondor) built hornborg.

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While Isengard was built by the Numenoreans in the Second Age, the best I can find at the moment for the Hornburg is:

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Men said that in the far-off days of the glory of Gondor the sea-kings had built here this fastness with the hands of giants. The Hornburg it was called...(TT7:Helm's Deep)

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Slightly confusing to me, because Gondor was established after the Downfall, but the references to sea-kings I can find all refer to Numenorean kings, not kings of Gondor. My view of this would be that it was also built pre-Downfall, and the mention of Gondor refers to the rather large settlement they had established on Middle-earth, before it became the Kingdom of Gondor, and so I think it likely they were built at around the same time by the same people.

The EofA article on the Hornburg says it existed some 3000 years before Helm, but does not give a source for that.

Perhaps someone can find something more definitive?

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Originally Posted by 4tesZeitalter

...I personally don't like such a colorful user interface. I prefer darker themes with less colors.

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You can always use a plugin for UI with different colors, if upon release the new UI is too bright for your taste. There are several options for individual windows & the whole UI. http://www.lotrointerface.com/downloads/cat65.html

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Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

Then we're in agreement, aren't we? Hasn't turbine said that the reason they are doing this, at least one of the reasons, is because they feel that too many people are using the same build and they believe this will way will lead to more customization? That's where the break in the logic for me is.. How long will it take us to very quickly identify which combination of point-spend will yield the best results? LIke probably Day 2 of launch. And in Day 2 and 2 minutes, it'll be posted here and we'll all start traiting that way - generally and out goes, nearly instantly, one of the main reasons they did this, all for nothing did they destroy one of the great things about LOTRO's customization, most admittedly flawed though it was.

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What I remember is that they want people to be more specialized in their roles. So that a certain toon cna have three roles filled properly by speccing deep into a single trait line tree. You can spread but you will be much less effective in each by doing so.

I agree that it will lead to cookie cutter builds. However I do not see thatmmuch of a difference as to what it is now, a warden tanking uses mostly blues with one or two mandatory yellows, a mini healing at least 3 blues. Of course you could choose which traits to slot and you will lose some customozation as you have to trait into a tree to get the best traits but there is still an option to spend points differently to get different traits. As I said before you likley won't get the best from each trait line anymore (again my mini example where two of the 4 yellows were a staple for all builds for me and the other two yellows were meh so the two meh ones I likely still get at the beginning of the tree).
Granted I likely will not get my favourite two yellows anymore but if that is what the devs want - to force specialization - then there is not much we can do besdies either eating what we get served or check out another restaurant.

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Sure, I'm the same with my hunter. But we don't need to go to trait trees to accomplish this, this can be achieved by revamping the traits themselves. Nor will going to trait trees get you out of your 4/3. It may be that it changes the traits themselves, but the ratio could still be the same, or you simply find a different combination to meet the same ends that the 4/3 met.

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I do see that most definitely. I do not think that's a good thing.

Isn't that obvious? Invest the money in endgame to retain your players, rather than rehash and reshuffle old content to constantly churn new ones.

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They have to cater to new players too. With HD there will be a 95 level wall to reach the endgame. With BB that can be done already from level 10 onwards.
They decided that the money lies not in endgame as much as in solo content. If you think differently then that is your view but surely not in line with Turbine's metrics.

Do I like it like this?
It depends, I surely do not like the single rng for each player, the massive farming going on of certain instances, the problems of bugs that reward people who jump on new content first until the loop holes are filled, generally the itemization and reward structure that rewards mindless gridning of the rng instead of constant rewarding to get closer to the cake.
I do like however the amount of time that goes into the story telling of quest lines. And while th lore helps to do that I still think it is made very well.
As long as scaled instances will not be again dps fests for grinding I am fine with scaled content.
And until I tried BB i will hold back any criticism about them although I am not too confident (given the solo hytbolt grind) but we will see.

Even though I am not too positive about all this I am still looking forward to HD and I am open to be positively surprised.

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Originally Posted by Mirnir

While Isengard was built by the Numenoreans in the Second Age, the best I can find at the moment for the Hornburg is:



Slightly confusing to me, because Gondor was established after the Downfall, but the references to sea-kings I can find all refer to Numenorean kings, not kings of Gondor. My view of this would be that it was also built pre-Downfall, and the mention of Gondor refers to the rather large settlement they had established on Middle-earth, before it became the Kingdom of Gondor, and so I think it likely they were built at around the same time by the same people.

The EofA article on the Hornburg says it existed some 3000 years before Helm, but does not give a source for that.

Perhaps someone can find something more definitive?

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I believe you, though my sarcasm was aimed at the game textures looking remarkably similar.

I can't remember how far Dunland extended before the Gondorian land grant of Rohan. I believe it was in Gondorian control at the time of issue. I'm not a lore expert. For me seeing these places for the first time is epic. I was excited to ride to Isengard on the first day of release.
While the scenery does not bother me while playing for some it does.
For me It's more about gameplay.so the class revamp scares me most.

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

That use of Massively by the incorrect image with placeholder TP icons, has generated huge amounts of unnecessary bad vibes.

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The fault lies with the persons responsible for creating and releasing a mock-up featuring the most ill-chosen icon in the game. The lack of situational awareness by the ones´ responsible is baffling. Cant blame the press for picking up the ball and running with it.

When you´re being so super-protective of all specifics and then mess up your grand first peek, thats just funny.

Anyway, The potential for goodness is there. I actually have no problem with increasing character limitations again. Just hope the new dev guard can pull it off. Not impressed at all with the look of the fortress - I know this is a tired old engine, but this fortress looks like the venerable Quake II. Lets hope it gets a glimpse of life before release.

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Originally Posted by Vandervahn

The fault lies with the persons responsible for creating and releasing a mock-up featuring the two most despised icons in the game. The lack of situational awareness by the ones´ responsible is baffling. Cant blame the press for picking up the ball and running with it.

When you´re being so super-protective of all specifics and then mess up your grand first peek, thats just funny.

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Definitely up for funny post of the year right here.

I certainly would have preferred the screaming face that is every other button in this game.

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

remove your tin foil hat please and calm down.

read the posts here. think rationally. look at the picture. remember lotro is already in a ###### state. stop day dreaming.


depends what class tbh. warden is very cookie cutter at times. other classes have completely useless lines and completely useless traits. hunter for example, can live 100% play time in one line maybe changing 1/2 traits for raiding. that, is terrible, terrible depth in choice.


they have got rid of legandaries iinc. there at the bottom of the line now, capstones. I guess other lesser legandaries have just been converted into traits in lines. for example, you see the eagle picture in the blue line. you see the bog learker in the blue line. I suspect others like maybe hunters bards arrow and rain of thorns will be gated to yellow for example.

class traits are all on the picture I presume. no more

race and virtue traits are apparently having a little work over. but I don't expect much.

stats are a form of reward system. armor rewards bigger stats, biggers stats makes us happy. we're humans, watching numbers go higher seems to make us happy.

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Read them. Rational, utterly calm, tin foil hats. Right. And who's making their arguments personal, then? Whatever. I'm only giving over what impressions all this advert-ese imparts to me -not valuations of your mental state. I know what human nature is. I know my loves and hates. And your condescending explanations aside, where grander stats and higher numbers come let's agree to not agree there.

To me, though, these trees yet reek of dubious change for the sake of change- a "feature" which isn't much of one- but only offered when an expansion is looming and such "features" are expected.

And in keeping to what I was on about - The hinted at trees -trees from games such as Diablo, World of Warcraft, and now lotro -through the Warsteeds menu- do not offer more choices than what we have for traiting now. Having set through my share of these games, as I'm certain you've done, I know trees of this sort gate the better traits/talents with the more rubbish traits which come before them. That's what I'm seeing of the dotted lines on the screen captures. Whatever capstones or milestone skills are gated by trait investiture now -or by tree investiture later- are irrelevant.

But of traits, with what we have now, players pick and choose as they wish within their respective sets -red, blue, yellow- without suffering those dotted lines. How is a talent tree having rid of useless lines other than to have you suffer through them to reach the "good deeper in?"

And you know what the good deeper in is- It's the minger defence.

-How is she?

-Oh, I don't know...

-Honestly...

-Honestly? Dog's bottom for a face but she's a wonderful wit, a glorious dancer, and whatever comes after it's drunk and lights-off, even so. Live a little, then, and never you mind the itching after.

No. Just... No.

Nothing of what I saw speaks to increased freedom to choose. It's why I'd said what I'd said, all rather calmly, that if such is the way pressing onward, why bother?

If characters are being shoved into more rigid roles, if the coming traits trees are bearing that in hand, then simply toss the trees and traits. Give the roles of classes on character creation. Make lotro more a third person hack/slash,shoot- or press buttoins whilst you watch that done sort of game only. Role your tanky, damagey, or healy character and off you go.

Why this fiddling with traits, though? Why this and why now to something which is arguably for the worse -without even saying "potentially" as there are enough examples of these trees to know what we're being handed- when the game is aging and has other, grander, problems? Why throw out that which works and not the terrible legendary items and their legacies? Both of which have done more havoc to class balancing than the traits they we're crudely thrown over.

Why again, when it's accepted with every expansion that we must destroy our older legendary items, and such a change would come far easier? Wouldn't the legendary item mechanic be the more throw-away of the two then? But no. Let's rather have new trait trees. Let's follow other games lead rather than leading, as that's done ever so well in a market filled with so many other failed clones and copies.

I'm not shouting here. I'm not saying the sky is falling. I'm saying that after Rise of Isengard, and after Riders of Rohan lotro needs a better makeover than trait trees. Send her to fatty camp, teach her to eat right, so she isn't crushing the breath of life out of every new boyfriend she sets on(later model PCs). Then have the extra hanging skin trimmed off her so she isn't a laughable flying-squirrel. That. That rather than leaving the emperor(Turbine/Warner) standing there not only naked and drunk, but come to putting lipstick on a pig and calling it a queen.

Let Helm's Deep be a triumph, something you want to call a friend and show off to them. Not something worthy only of slinking off from -ninja-stepping out the door the morning after, and with a terrible headache besides.

/Edit:


If the new trait system will indeed be like the one we've seen with mounted combat then everyone should be aware of the fact that you can't (!) max out the entire skill tree without using the store. If the character skill trees will work the same way then we're a huge step closer to P2W land.

:( Bye, bye LOTRO. Awesome game while it lasted, but I guess it's time to move on. Hope everyone that stays has fun...tree system just isn't my thing. I'm done.

Trying to understand better what we see in the updated screenshot linked by Sapience.

Apparently (according to Sapience) the numbered column of icons on the RHS are different specs.

But what is the column of un-numbered icons (all of which contain what looks like a shield) on the far LHS, I wonder?

My first impression is that the trait tree looks extremely sparse for 95 levels of character advancement.

The image shows six "tiers" of talents, plus what is probably a capstone for the trait line. If this is all there is, that would suggest it takes 15 levels to advance through a single tier.

So I'm wondering if there are "super-tiers" such that what we see is only part of the full tree for the LM (in which case the shield-like icons on the left would have a purpose).

Edit: Looking at it some more, perhaps the icons on the left select Virtues/Racials as opposed to class traits...?

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Originally Posted by LagunaD

Trying to understand better what we see in the updated screenshot linked by Sapience.

Apparently (according to Sapience) the numbered column of icons on the RHS are different specs.

But what is the column of un-numbered icons (all of which contain what looks like a shield) on the far LHS, I wonder?

My first impression is that the trait tree looks extremely sparse for 95 levels of character advancement.

The image shows six "tiers" of talents, plus what is probably a capstone for the trait line. If this is all there is, that would suggest it takes 15 levels to advance through a single tier.

So I'm wondering if there are "super-tiers" such that what we see is only part of the full tree for the LM (in which case the shield-like icons on the left would have a purpose).

Edit: Looking at it some more, perhaps the icons on the left select Virtues/Racials as opposed to class traits...?

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I think that the icons on the left represent skills / traits / something that unlock the deeper to trait into that specific traitline. Notice the colored "arrow" that being filled in and is pointing down that the icons are situated on. I'm guessing that as you trait into that traitline that "arrow" (or whatever you'd like to call it, ribbon, whatever) fills in, as the fill in encompasses an icon, you unlock it.

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Originally Posted by Rainith

I think that the icons on the left represent skills / traits / something that unlock the deeper to trait into that specific traitline. Notice the colored "arrow" that being filled in and is pointing down that the icons are situated on. I'm guessing that as you trait into that traitline that "arrow" (or whatever you'd like to call it, ribbon, whatever) fills in, as the fill in encompasses an icon, you unlock it.

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You are talking about a different part of the graphic.

I am talking about the 3 icons that look like a shield, on the very left side. The topmost is to the left of the "Class Traits" label.

Edit: Looking at the original Massively images, it appears those 6 tiers are probably all there is. The LM they are playing in their walk-through is near max level, and has not quite filled in the MoNF tree.

One tier every 15 levels seems...very underwhelming.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

Check my avatar. :) I play a hunter. I do have an almost capped LM (I need to stop being lazy about it and get it finished).

That said, the image is actually from the image pack we sent to all the press who were present (wasn't just Massively) on the call and stream. Not sure why they used a placeholder.

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Will probably not get an answer, but which server do you mainly play on, Sapience?

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Originally Posted by LagunaD

I am talking about the 3 icons that look like a shield, on the very left side.

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The way they're oriented they look like tabs, I'd assume clicking either of the other two would bring forward the virtue tab or the race trait tab. Could be wrong about the nature of the 2 tabs, but I'd bet very good money they're nav aids ala internet browser tabs.

The upcoming features sound very interesting.

I am cautiously optimistic about the class changes. I was initially sceptical about these, as I thought the classes would be dumbed down too much, but each piece of information suggests otherwise. It seems the trait trees have a lot more going on than the current set up of choosing 5 of 8 in red/yellow/blue, and 2 of another.

For those complaining about lost customisation, I wonder why people consider the current trait system better. At the moment we already have numerous cookie-cutter builds. Group captains have to be at least 5 in Hands of Healing, and they generally only change to 5 dps when soloing. The same applies to most other classes. There are healing lines, dps lines, tanking lines, and so forth - and due to the fact that bonuses are locked behind going 2, 3, 4, or 5 deep with one line, it encourages most players to adopt a certain type of build.

From what the images show, it seems like there will be more potential choice - though cookie-cutter builds are likely to remain, regardless of what Turbine does (because players find what is considered an ideal way to play a class for a particular end, and that becomes promulgated quickly).

One thing I do like, and which is long awaited, is the class respecs. If I can finally switch from healing to dps traits on the move, I am a happy player.

-Bel

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Originally Posted by Belnavar

From what the images show, it seems like there will be more potential choice

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That's far from clear, to me. Of course, we have very little solid information.

In the Massively image, the LM is close to, or at, max level, and has only enough talent points to fill a single tree. It appears to require 31 points (out of ~40 total available?) to unlock the capstone of a trait line. That doesn't leave much of anything for off-spec.

Moreover, it sounds like access to certain abilities may be gated with the trees, so you will have fewer abilities overall, and much more narrowly focused.

While idea of Rift-like talent trees could work, what I've seen so far of the implementation (admittedly lacking in details) concerns me.

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Originally Posted by LagunaD

That's far from clear, to me. Of course, we have very little solid information.

In the Massively image, the LM is close to, or at, max level, and has only enough talent points to fill a single tree. It appears to require 31 points (out of ~40 total available?) to unlock the capstone of a trait line. That doesn't leave much of anything for off-spec.

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As far as the total goes, I noticed the same thing, but then I realized that they were using a stock LM for their example. Most likely auto levelled, probably just to 85, given no class deed completion pts(assuming they had made it in at this pt, my understanding was this info went out to a while ago). With 1 pt every 2 levels we SHOULD have 47-48 base pts at lvl 95. Assuming that we get 1 pt per class deed/legendary deed...3 trait lines x 8 trait deeds per + 7 legendary trait deeds...we could very easily have 80ish pts with total completion. That would/could give us approximately 1.5 trees completed. Not saying this is the number, but definitely within the realm of reason.

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Originally Posted by thefamilyosc

As far as the total goes, I noticed the same thing, but then I realized that they were using a stock LM for their example. Most likely auto levelled, probably just to 85, given no class deed completion pts(assuming they had made it in at this pt, my understanding was this info went out to a while ago). With 1 pt every 2 levels we SHOULD have 47-48 base pts at lvl 95. Assuming that we get 1 pt per class deed/legendary deed...3 trait lines x 8 trait deeds per + 7 legendary trait deeds...we could very easily have 80ish pts with total completion. That would/could give us approximately 1.5 trees completed. Not saying this is the number, but definitely within the realm of reason.

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Well, I doubt you start getting trait points at Level 1; I'd guess probably starting at level 10 or 15 (tying it to the first class quest would make some sense). Starting at Level 15 would give the 40 points the Massively LM has, assuming they are Level 95.

We don't know much about the trait deeds; the twitter transcript does mention that choosing a specialization will "affect the cost of traits as you spend them"; so traits outside the specialization may cost more.

I guess we'll just have to wait for more info; but my initial impression that the trait trees look pretty sparse for 95 levels of character advancement remains...

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Originally Posted by robbie1435

Will probably not get an answer, but which server do you mainly play on, Sapience?

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You really expect him to tell you that???

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Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

You're neglecting that too, because it's rather out of character for the Rohirrim to have siege engines. It's not a straightforward question of prudence or competence, there's also the need to have the requisite technical savvy in military engineering. That's one likely reason why Tolkien didn't mention them at Helm's Deep, and also why he had Sauron's lot using massive trebuchets during the siege of Minas Tirith (going by the description of projectiles being hurled very high, way over the walls into the city behind) without the Gondorians apparently being able to respond in kind.

It fits the game, though, if only because Turbine have always been cavalier about the war-gear in use - hence all the plate armour, two-handed swords, crossbows and so on, so it's not worth arguing about a catapult or two. So it's understandable on that basis, but lore-wise nope, it's a non-starter even if you try to dodge around it and look at character. (And for that matter Turbine's Edoras is way too big and grand to be in character, either, but then they always make places like that madly huge and showy so no change there).

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If you go in to the extended bits of the legendarium, I'm thinking specifically of Unfinished Tales, and you look in to some of the notes on the Rohirrim you'll note that reference is repeatedly made that they traded arms with Gondor rather frequently and were availed of the forges and other military technology of Gondor which itself was well skilled in seigecraft. In other words there is no doubt that the Rohirrim are both well aware of and supplied with the materiele for seigcraft. That they continue to focus on mounted combat is obvious but for any army which also has a tradition of foot soldiers (note the mentions of foot levies in the Westfold in regards to the history of the Battle(s) of the Ford) they would certainly have taken advantage of any tools of seigcraft at hand in their defended strongholds.

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Originally Posted by LagunaD

Well, I doubt you start getting trait points at Level 1; I'd guess probably starting at level 10 or 15 (tying it to the first class quest would make some sense). Starting at Level 15 would give the 40 points the Massively LM has, assuming they are Level 95.

We don't know much about the trait deeds; the twitter transcript does mention that choosing a specialization will "affect the cost of traits as you spend them"; so traits outside the specialization may cost more.

I guess we'll just have to wait for more info; but my initial impression that the trait trees look pretty sparse for 95 levels of character advancement remains...

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They were pretty explicit about wanting the feeling of progress to be pretty immediate for new players as they levelled. It may indeed start later, but my bet is toons will get their first pt at lvl 3. Costs outside spec are doubled, so if we assume ~40ish pts to truly max a tree, we'd have 40 pts to spend on other trees at 2pts cost per 1pt trait gain.

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Originally Posted by Iozeph

To me, though, these trees yet reek of dubious change for the sake of change- a "feature" which isn't much of one- but only offered when an expansion is looming and such "features" are expected.

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we've been told a few reasons for the update. but I admit, i not exactly why a tree trait system over other alternatives (what other alternatives? I dunno...)

explinations have been popping around the big biggest one on the twitter page ages ago mentioned "we believe our current classes can do too much, instances will feel harder in our new class designs" or something along those lines.

secondly, you have the quote from massively which nicely explains it too.

"The team had grown unhappy with two major observations regarding class development: that the early game was too unfocused and lacked choices when it came to class builds, and that the late game ended up featuring classes that were all good at more or less the same things. Hence the desire to give meaningful choices early on with an emphasis on creating memorable and focused builds."

there not changing it just for change. the classes (not just traits...) are not balanced well and the hybrid class designs are no longer the focus. the developers and designers play lotro to, there not changing it just to annoy people, they probably honestly believe this will make the game more enjoyable for it's market. I'm not just siding with them because I feel there profession oppinion is highly valid, but we're not even in a buffet system anymore. the set bonuses are basically a ######## tree system. no point haveing a half baked system. so either full buffet or full tree imo, and they seem to have chosen.

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do not offer more choices than what we have for traiting now

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where is the grand choice in our current trait system?

so, I could easily do a whole play session with 2 trait set ups. 1 just for tanking, 1 for dps. and thats warden, probably one of the most up to date classes. playing a hunter or burglar and I might as well never retrait when I'm doing PvE. it's so much more cookie cutter than people seem to be making out.

please, tell me your class, lets get a deep descussion on choice. I'll start figuring out the maths of it if people start complying.

iinc, there are 4586471424 (24 to the power of 7, correct me if I'm wrong) combinations in the current buffet system. many of those are just in a differant order. also there would be repeated traits. but how many of those do people actually use. 1? 2? 10? so how many was the design? maybe we could fix it! still, thats maybe 6-9 veriations at max. and still, warden/RK who probably use the lines to the max still have very cookie cutter traits compared to others

with the 52 points we see with tree system, (snip pointless info), thats already 6 core veriations of traits. 9 if you count that you might mix your secondary traits up (like 5red, 1blue, 1yellow kinda) with a large variation of distribution to how much you split up your traits bewteen your main line and second line and where in those lines you actually spend them. go back and look at the picture, how many did he not max while going for the cap? a full blue LM can still be slightly differant to another blue LM by >10 points spent which could mean a lot.

which one, in acutal play, has more viable choices?

would love any other maths boffins to correct me or help me, late at night I'm probably wrong.

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

iinc, there are 4586471424 (24 to the power of 7, correct me if I'm wrong) combinations in the current buffet system.

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You are wrong.

There are 346104 unique ways of combining each class's (non-legendary) class traits.

24!/(7! * 17!) = 346104

Due to capstones (which require 5+ class traits), the total number of combinations (class + legendary) is a bit harder to work out.

There are 346104 * 4 = 1384416 unique class + legendary trait configurations that don't involve a capstone legendary

There are an additional 3 * [(8!/(5! * 3!))*(16!/(14!*2!))+(8!/(6!*2!))*16+8] * (4!/(2!*2!)) = 3*[56*120 + 28*16+8]*6 = 3*7176*6 = 129168 ways of traiting involving a capstone legendary.

So the total is 1513584 unique class+legendary trait builds for each class currently.

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Originally Posted by Vandervahn

The fault lies with the persons responsible for creating and releasing a mock-up featuring the most ill-chosen icon in the game. The lack of situational awareness by the ones´ responsible is baffling. Cant blame the press for picking up the ball and running with it.

When you´re being so super-protective of all specifics and then mess up your grand first peek, thats just funny.

Anyway, The potential for goodness is there. I actually have no problem with increasing character limitations again. Just hope the new dev guard can pull it off. Not impressed at all with the look of the fortress - I know this is a tired old engine, but this fortress looks like the venerable Quake II. Lets hope it gets a glimpse of life before release.

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Not solely. Yes, the icons were poorly chosen, but according to Sapience the press were explicitly told that the icons were placeholders. That particular piece of info was 'conveniently' left out of the Massively article. Intentional to get more 'controversy'? Wouldn't be surprised, although the updated version is up there now.

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Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

You're neglecting that too, because it's rather out of character for the Rohirrim to have siege engines. It's not a straightforward question of prudence or competence, there's also the need to have the requisite technical savvy in military engineering. That's one likely reason why Tolkien didn't mention them at Helm's Deep, and also why he had Sauron's lot using massive trebuchets during the siege of Minas Tirith (going by the description of projectiles being hurled very high, way over the walls into the city behind) without the Gondorians apparently being able to respond in kind.

It fits the game, though, if only because Turbine have always been cavalier about the war-gear in use - hence all the plate armour, two-handed swords, crossbows and so on, so it's not worth arguing about a catapult or two. So it's understandable on that basis, but lore-wise nope, it's a non-starter even if you try to dodge around it and look at character. (And for that matter Turbine's Edoras is way too big and grand to be in character, either, but then they always make places like that madly huge and showy so no change there).

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Someone can correct me if I am mistaken, or back me up if I am correct:

In Volume VIII of The History of Middle Earth "The War of the Ring," there are early draft versions and outlines of the Helm's Deep battle. If I am recalling correctly, some of these did in fact contain reference to the Rohirrim using catapults. Again, I may be wrong, but I think it was in there.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

The housing update is not part of the expansion. That doesn't mean we aren't still planning on making changes this year (after the expansion launches).

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My question is simply is there enough time to do that?

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Originally Posted by Fralin

My question is simply is there enough time to do that?

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Depends upon the extent of the changes, I suppose. From what I've heard its more akin to tweaking than revamping.

That said, a great influence will be the expansion launch. If there's a few bugs deemed to be urgent and/or game-breaking then it will be all hands on deck.

I'd place odds at fifty fifty. We haven't even seen a beta yet, we don't know what state HD is in. In theory, given the extended time they've had to work on it, it should be rather more polished than previous betas; plus the council should be pushing for major bugs to be sorted before anything resembling an open (or non-NDA) beta; bad bugs are bad publicity.

It's a waiting game, but I'm thinking that early next year is far more likely.

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Originally Posted by thefamilyosc

They were pretty explicit about wanting the feeling of progress to be pretty immediate for new players as they levelled. It may indeed start later, but my bet is toons will get their first pt at lvl 3. Costs outside spec are doubled, so if we assume ~40ish pts to truly max a tree, we'd have 40 pts to spend on other trees at 2pts cost per 1pt trait gain.

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See, I'm thinking it's the ideal thing to be tied in to the novice trait we receive after the opening instance - but at the same time it will be a lot more useful for players to get up to speed in a starting instance. You don't want to present a new player with a wealth of stats and decisions early on, but you can tempt them with future skills and traits; as well as offering an introduction on how their class will play in the future.

It will help the new player, without opinions on the old system to colour their memory, if it happened in the relatively safe and secure intro. If trait costs were waived in that instance, all the better.

I am looking very much forward to the new books of the Epic. Great to get more interaction with Aragon. Oh and new cosmetics! Yummies.

The class changes, well, there'll be some adaptation to change. As a champion I'll likely lose some things and gain some new things. It remains to be tried out in game actually. It's not as much about tree or trait to me, it's a lot more about 'how it plays'. Staring at trees/traits is like 1% of my gameplay, combat is substantially more. The animation changes may turn out meaning more to me than the trees - is that a wierd thing to say?

There's just one thing at this point that's not settling right with me at this time. It's the look of the Hornburg. I must keep in mind I'm looking at low-res screenshots that likely still veil some of the Burg itself. But still, here's where I think there's room for improvement:
- The stonework looks way, way too dark and "feels evil". It's almost like something from Angmar, and not from the good side of it. Make it a tad darker and sharpen the protruding elements and you're working towards the Black Gate. I think Peter Jackson actually got it right, his Hornburg looks like a fortress of powers of Good, not of the Dark.
- The wall looks too low, or at least not imposing enough. Maybe it's because of the lack of smoothness rather than a percieved lack of height?
- The wall's protruding elements protrude too much.

Maybe I'm just biased/spoiled by the movie? There's that scene where you see the Hornburg, nestled at the foot of the mountains, bathing in sunlight. Right at that moment the movie captures the very greatness of the Hornburg. You just see it has never been taken and can't see how anyone will. How it is indeed a bastion of Hope and Safety. I'm lacking that feeling with these leaked low res, probably not taken at the best kodak moment screenshots.

Oh, now that I think of this: weather. The first time I see the Hornburg not yet under siege, please make it a blistering sunny day. Then bring thunder and rain when it's under siege. You probably thought of this, but it's something theatrical that really sets the stage. I know you can do this.

Anyway, I hope this feedback somehow reaches the artists doing this artwork.

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Originally Posted by Belnavar

The upcoming features sound very interesting.

I am cautiously optimistic about the class changes. I was initially sceptical about these, as I thought the classes would be dumbed down too much, but each piece of information suggests otherwise. It seems the trait trees have a lot more going on than the current set up of choosing 5 of 8 in red/yellow/blue, and 2 of another.

For those complaining about lost customisation, I wonder why people consider the current trait system better. At the moment we already have numerous cookie-cutter builds. Group captains have to be at least 5 in Hands of Healing, and they generally only change to 5 dps when soloing. The same applies to most other classes. There are healing lines, dps lines, tanking lines, and so forth - and due to the fact that bonuses are locked behind going 2, 3, 4, or 5 deep with one line, it encourages most players to adopt a certain type of build.

From what the images show, it seems like there will be more potential choice - though cookie-cutter builds are likely to remain, regardless of what Turbine does (because players find what is considered an ideal way to play a class for a particular end, and that becomes promulgated quickly).

One thing I do like, and which is long awaited, is the class respecs. If I can finally switch from healing to dps traits on the move, I am a happy player.

-Bel

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The thing I'm worried about is how many DPS skills will become nerfed or unavailable to use if you trait for healing, and vise-versa. I read that there will be less skills and consolidated skills. I'm just wondering how this is going to nerf the classes overall. Will we have to go more specialized now with less potential to mix it up? I guess we'll see.

And about the shots of Helm's Deep. I don't know but does it seem a little ..ornate? I know the argument that this game is about the books and not the movies, but I think PJ got it pretty close on this one, and is this going a different direction just to be different than the movie? It's not bad though.

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Originally Posted by LagunaD

You are wrong.

There are 346104 unique ways of combining each class's (non-legendary) class traits.

24!/(7! * 17!) = 346104

Due to capstones (which require 5+ class traits), the total number of combinations (class + legendary) is a bit harder to work out.

There are 346104 * 4 = 1384416 unique class + legendary trait configurations that don't involve a capstone legendary

There are an additional 3 * [(8!/(5! * 3!))*(16!/(14!*2!))+(8!/(6!*2!))*16+8] * (4!/(2!*2!)) = 3*[56*120 + 28*16+8]*6 = 3*7176*6 = 129168 ways of traiting involving a capstone legendary.

So the total is 1513584 unique class+legendary trait builds for each class currently.

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epic!

have some math rep +1

I thought it was too easy to be right. late night. but thank you for clarifying. no idea how to truely made an idea of how many true veriations on the tree system we saw other than counting it out tbh.

I am more than disapointed that we now learn that despite official hints of housing revamp that there will be none. Although I have heard rumours of crafting instances in neighbourhoods which I think is pretty lame if it is the only further "up-date" beyond the restoration of the original mechanism of forclosing on rent indebited homes.

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Originally Posted by Lyllie

I am more than disapointed that we now learn that despite official hints of housing revamp that there will be none. Although I have heard rumours of crafting instances in neighbourhoods which I think is pretty lame if it is the only further "up-date" beyond the restoration of the original mechanism of forclosing on rent indebited homes.

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You really need to start reading things more thoroughly and not letting your mind run off with your attention the moment you hear something. They've always stated that the housing changes were coming, that they would see a more staggered release(escrow and forclosure changes already), and that we wouldn't see the bulk of said changes until AFTER HD. In this thread alone Sapience posted that the housing changes are still coming. We're getting the housing revamp. They're not renegging. The changes may not be as awesomely sweeping as you'd like, but if you'd been reading for the past many months you'd have known that already.

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Originally Posted by monk_tbd

Not sure i understand.

A lot of minis heal currently with 4y/3b. Some use 4b/3y. Some like the blue traits.
I like my 4y/3b. I expect this not to work as good anymore with the revamp i.e. I likely will not be able to get anthem duration and cd to the same levels without giving up more healing (which I already did anyway by not having 4 blues).

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It seems that what I've been doing for years now... going one solid colour (Specialization) on all of my trait lines on all of my toons... and something which I've been laughed at, sneered at, and derided for, in-game, is about to become the norm.

There's some sweet satisfaction in there for me somewhere. ;)

I've always enjoyed having a more specialized character. If you think about it we can all do many things, but we can't all do them anywhere near as well as someone who is specialized in something. If someone puts 20 solid years into something, doing it all day, every day, they're likely going to be better at it than someone who just dabbles into it on the weekend, natural talent notwithstanding.

Whilst I don't think we should necessarily be forced to 'specialize', I do think it should be more difficult, and less effective to be a 'Jack of all Trades, Master of None'.

Just my two coppers.

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

It seems that what I've been doing for years now... going one solid colour (Specialization) on all of my trait lines on all of my toons... and something which I've been laughed at, sneered at, and derided for, in-game, is about to become the norm.

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Well the main mini in our kin always has 5 blues plus capstone.
Every playstyle is valid if it is fun :).
The only sneer someone would have gotten from me is if a warden pre-changes had skill and power slotted and was proud of it (for those who cannot remember this gave +40% damage on the default gambit which is basically the NULL gambit i.e. no at all a proper gambit).

There are classes where I might just slot 7 straight colors like runekeepers e.g. but for me some classes just do not provide 7 good traits of a single line.
E.g. I do not like the mini capstone I prefer anthem buffing instead which surely offsets the capstone advantages.

Overall I do not think that the revamp is largely aimed at this but more aimed at that Sambrog is done using a few champs for tanking and aoe and a cappy for heals.

I do not mind specialization if I can keep the utility. And one great utility we will have is to be able to respec on the fly whenever we are out of combat. This means on one pull I can go with half heals half dps spec, on the next I can go full heals, on another I can get my buffing up.
Even though more than two specs are gated behind TP we should not forget that this can completely change our roles from one pull to the other (I am looking mainly at you runekeepers, loremasters and champions).
Doing something like this is almost the norm in e.g. Rift. changing your role on the fly depending on the pull.

Q: How will the new class trait trees affect, if at all, the way we currently earn our Legendary traits?

This may have been answered elsewhere, but I haven't seen it, so apologies in advance if it has been.

For example, on my Champion at level 46, I have half of three books unlocked from grinding pages in the Misty Mountains. To get the other half of the pages requires me to grind them in another zone, in my case, Angmar, Eregion, or Moria.

So...

I have some questions as to how these legendary skills will work with the upcoming class changes.

Are these three initial legendary skills now part of some tree that ye acquire upon attainment of a certain level and/or unlocking part of the tree?

If so, what happens if I have a few pages missing from each skill, are we simply out of luck and have to just get it through the tree?

It also seems that that if the pages have already been fully ground and we've attained the skill that we'll still need to 'unlock' the trait in the tree, if it's at the bottom. (Capstone) ?

In other words, spend skill/trait points to get to the bottom of the tree to use something we may already have slotted in one of our 3 legendary slots.

Or are legendary traits not touched at all in this initial revamp? (And if not, are there plans to change them?)

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

It seems that what I've been doing for years now... going one solid colour (Specialization) on all of my trait lines on all of my toons... and something which I've been laughed at, sneered at, and derided for, in-game, is about to become the norm.

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Probably not still. If you go all one color you'll lose quite a few skills you may want or need, so going absolutely one color will probably be even more of a hindrance. That being said, it appears we may have enough points to throw into the other two branches even if we max one branch.

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Originally Posted by monk_tbd

Even though more than two specs are gated behind TP we should not forget that this can completely change our roles from one pull to the other (I am looking mainly at you runekeepers, loremasters and champions).

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I think this may actually make captain tanking more viable as well. Captanks kinda suck at AoE aggro but we're pros at single target. We could run around as healers for all the trash and just let the DPS tank them, and then for the boss where a DPS class wouldn't survive we can swap to tank spec.

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

Q: How will the new class trait trees affect, if at all, the way we currently earn our Legendary traits?)

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legendary traits are now the capstone the tree iinc. other lessers ones have probably been put around, for example the eagle has been moved very low into the blue line.

we've been told class deeds are still in place. so I'm assuming things like moria book deed, moria rep and moria class quests, alone side all class deeds, class quests and book quests will now give 1 point on the trait tree. but many there will be some rework with class deeds, 21 of them iinc and that might be too many points from what we see, but I might be wrong. tottle assumtion

you probably won't unlock any legenadry traits anymore. they will all be on the tree's. the quests/deeds and stuff will just add another point I assume.

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Originally Posted by TinDragon

]I think this may actually make captain tanking more viable as well. Captanks kinda suck at AoE aggro but we're pros at single target. We could run around as healers for all the trash and just let the DPS tank them, and then for the boss where a DPS class wouldn't survive we can swap to tank spec.

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retraiting any time is so weird to me. good weird. most tree systems have extreme costs or even real money to choose another line.

being able to swap anywhere (I pressume out of combat ofc and not in moors) even un-updated lines like hunter yellow might seem viable more when you see something your slightly scared off. or in RoF one hunter might have desided to switch to make those spider super Ez mode (did it once, it was...).

thinking about how the current trait system, and the screen shot we've seen, I would even make 2 tanking set-ups with basically the same line but a few tiny variations of where I spent my points to mini-max.

so they've really won my vote there. preparing for raid might never be the same again... "dude, get some points there, we need the banana buff to survive the giraffe attack!!!" "shut up steve. I'll respec to lemon spec so he can just dps cos he's an idiot and not got gear in that line well"

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Originally Posted by TinDragon

Probably not still. If you go all one color you'll lose quite a few skills you may want or need, so going absolutely one color will probably be even more of a hindrance. That being said, it appears we may have enough points to throw into the other two branches even if we max one branch.

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If the point is to revamp the classes to encourage specialization, then going 'off tree' into other areas is likely going to be penalized in some way, yes?

How often do we get points and how many do we get to start? (Do we get additional points every level, every other level, etc...) And what is the max points pool we will have at 95?

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

If the point is to revamp the classes to encourage specialization, then going 'off tree' into other areas is likely going to be penalized in some way, yes?

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Right now the rumour/believed truth/whatever you want to refer to it as is that going into other trees will cost more points, so like if something is 5 points to max in your specialization it may be 10 points instead in another tree. I think something similar to that was mentioned on the Twitter chat. Assuming that's true, you can either give up some points from your main branch to fully maximize certain traits in your off branch, or use the same amount of points as you'd use in your main branch and make it half as effective.

The other thing to note is that specialization seems to affect the traits on the far left (to the left of all three branches). If that's true, I'd imagine specialization wouldn't penalize you too significantly for going into off-branches as it'd already be preventing you from using certain traits with that method.

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How often do we get points and how many do we get to start? (Do we get additional points every level, every other level, etc...) And what is the max points pool we will have at 95?

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At the very least we're getting a point every 2 levels and a point for every class deed, so at minimum we should have 71. That's not counting legendary trait deeds/quests or anything else that may also give points.

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

How often do we get points and how many do we get to start? (Do we get additional points every level, every other level, etc...) And what is the max points pool we will have at 95?

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I've estimated 80ish pts, though the total may well be closer to 70 depending on whether we start getting pts immediately or not and if any of the class trait deeds are removed by the revamp. From the info we have, my estimate is pretty generic. 1 pt every 2 levels at lvl 95 = 47-48. 1 pt per class trait deed X 24 deeds = 24. 1pt per legendary trait deed = 7.


Edit: and they have stated that spending outside your specialization will cost double pts, ie 1pt per to specialize tank, 2pts per to add a little from the dps tree.

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Originally Posted by TinDragon

Right now the rumour/believed truth/whatever you want to refer to it as is that going into other trees will cost more point

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not a rumour. it was in the twitter chat ages ago. I assume the same as you though, just double cost of points if you go off line. which if you go to far into another line, you might not get all the set bonuses from your main line. so you are very much promoted to go deep into your main line, but I bet there will be some capstones people might not want always.

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The other thing to note is that specialization seems to affect the traits on the far left

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probably the new set bonuses.

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At the very least we're getting a point every 2 levels and a point for every class deed, so at minimum we should have 71. That's not counting legendary trait deeds/quests or anything else that may also give points.

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I bet the total is probably lower. remember that the class revamps will be removing and consolidating many skills so will break many class deeds. or even have some skills gated to late into a line so might seem a little unfair. so I expect the total number of class deeds (use x y times) will be cut down. I expect maybe 77 to be the maximum, but in realitity is might be around 60-65 concidering the screenshots have the guy at 53 which is probably an auto leveled guy with all the old deeds done too I bet. so thats 44 in leveling and 9 extra that came from where.

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Originally Posted by thefamilyosc

1 pt every 2 levels at lvl 95 = 47-48. 1 pt per class trait deed X 24 deeds = 24. 1pt per legendary trait deed = 7.

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remember that we've been told we choose our spec at level 6. assuming we don't get a point till then or then, thats 44 points to 95.

again. I don't think all old class deeds (hit x y times) will be in place.

although I'd love to play a game of "the price is right" with people XD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcYVnr4IC2I

I bet 65 :P

Regarding the shield-like icons to the left of the trait tree lines, I have an educated guess what they may be - specialisations. As it was clearly stated during the Twitter chat on class revamp, we will have to pick a specialisation at an early level, which will give you specific bonuses (answer 3a). I think the best analogy to specialisation is the warsteed types in mounted combat - light, medium and heavy. Thus, the traits we see at the very left of the window are probably the specific bonuses granted when you pick a specialisation. Notice how the Keeper of Animals trait line has a slightly larger font and is in bold yellow. I think this is the trait line picked as specialisation in the example, which ties in with the fact that some of the traits on the left have a blue frame around them.

The other two tabs with a shield icon (probably still a placeholder image) are likely the layout you get when you specialise in one of the other two trait lines. The most logical conclusion would be that if you pick one of these other tabs, you will have different traits to the left. In effect, this gives you once again a 3x3 combination, though in this case it is clearly stated in the Twitter chat that when you specialise, trait costs will be lower in your picked trait line (answer 3a).

Regarding how these bonuses are unlocked, I think it's common sense to say that they are unlocked the deeper you go into the trait line you picked to specialise in. This is also strongly inferred in the Twitter chat (answer 5), and ties in with the image - if the whole trait line was unlocked, you will probably have access to all bonuses.

This poses a question however - does that mean that you will be able to change specialisation the way you can change warsteed type (i.e. any time out of combat, without additional cost)? It would be logical, given how the same approach is used with the mounted combat trait lines. I'd love if Sapience or someone else could confirm that, I doubt anyone would like too many speculations.

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Originally Posted by Adanamir

the shield-like icons to the left of the trait tree lines, I have an educated guess what they may be - specialisations

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you choose a spec then how you spend your points. like how you choose a horse size which explains the bonuses are the general design and roll of that type, then you get to mess with points.

there probably just place holder icons for virtues and race traits as they have not been removed and needed a new UI with class and legendary traits removed. those will peobably be able to be used on the fly too, so makes sense.

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This poses a question however - does that mean that you will be able to change specialisation the way you can change warsteed type (i.e. any time out of combat, without additional cost)?

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yes.

they called retraiting "re-spec" before. mentioned somewhere else that will not be able to retrait just a few points but the whole thing. so re-spec will be the whole thing. which, just costs silver and on the move.

it's probably like that for an incentive so you buy more save slots, as I'm sure they could impliment tanking off points like MC, but choose not to for the little fluff that could have been added to store. it's not pay2win, just pay for convenience.

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

I bet the total is probably lower. remember that the class revamps will be removing and consolidating many skills so will break many class deeds. or even have some skills gated to late into a line so might seem a little unfair. so I expect the total number of class deeds (use x y times) will be cut down. I expect maybe 77 to be the maximum, but in realitity is might be around 60-65 concidering the screenshots have the guy at 53 which is probably an auto leveled guy with all the old deeds done too I bet. so thats 44 in leveling and 9 extra that came from where.

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I'm not too sure on this for two reasons.
1) When they had first stated consolidation was a big thing, that was several months before they had mentioned anything about skills being limited to trait trees. I have a feeling not as many skills will be consolidated as you may think.
2) Whenever they change skills around, consolidate, etc they've ended up changing the requirements for the deeds. Obviously part of that reasoning is because they needed to keep that many deeds since they kept that many traits, but the fact that they can just change the requirements of the deeds tells me that they're more likely to change than completely remove deeds.

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remember that we've been told we choose our spec at level 6. assuming we don't get a point till then or then, thats 44 points to 95.

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I haven't seen that, but I doubt you're lying and it does make sense that if specialization starts at 6, so do the points. The only question that may change number of points at that point is whether level 6 gives you a "special" point to put into a specialization, or if you're immediately able to put a point into a trait.

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Originally Posted by Adanamir

The other two tabs with a shield icon (probably still a placeholder image) are likely the layout you get when you specialise in one of the other two trait lines. The most logical conclusion would be that if you pick one of these other tabs, you will have different traits to the left. In effect, this gives you once again a 3x3 combination, though in this case it is clearly stated in the Twitter chat that when you specialise, trait costs will be lower in your picked trait line (answer 3a).

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That could be it, but my guess is more on the other two tabs being for virtues and racial traits. I assume with retraiting on the fly that bards will be removed or repurposed, and we do know that virtues are being updated to fit the new UI in some way.

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Regarding how these bonuses are unlocked, I think it's common sense to say that they are unlocked the deeper you go into the trait line you picked to specialise in. This is also strongly inferred in the Twitter chat (answer 5), and ties in with the image - if the whole trait line was unlocked, you will probably have access to all bonuses.

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They do have mini lines and the traits on the left line up with the lowest they've gone in the specialization tree, so that's a safe guess. It'll be interesting to see if you could "specialize" in healing but then go far enough in a DPS line to unlock the healing specialization traits.

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This poses a question however - does that mean that you will be able to change specialisation the way you can change warsteed type (i.e. any time out of combat, without additional cost)? It would be logical, given how the same approach is used with the mounted combat trait lines. I'd love if Sapience or someone else could confirm that, I doubt anyone would like too many speculations.

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Already confirmed that when retraiting you have to redo everything including specialization, and that it costs silver. So it'll be easy to switch, but a little time-consuming and won't be free. Of course, that's what we have builds for. I'm assuming there's no silver cost to switch to a different build, just to retrait your traits in that build.

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Originally Posted by Lyllie

I am more than disapointed that we now learn that despite official hints of housing revamp that there will be none. Although I have heard rumours of crafting instances in neighbourhoods which I think is pretty lame if it is the only further "up-date" beyond the restoration of the original mechanism of forclosing on rent indebited homes.

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I'm not gonna bother looking for the quote, but we were told at least a month ago that the housing revamp would not be part of HD launch, but following after.

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Originally Posted by Gardhik

Every older beta member know that sapience has a hunter who can one shot everything and pops balrog like candy. P

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I have my own little Balrog dispenser. :)

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Originally Posted by GrimbleGrumble

I'm not gonna bother looking for the quote, but we were told at least a month ago that the housing revamp would not be part of HD launch, but following after.

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Correct. We've always said this year and if you recall back to the Helm's Deep press release, Housing isn't on it because Housing isn't part of the expansion. Never was.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

I have my own little Balrog dispenser. :)

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Balrogs being one of the least deadly things it dispenses.

*shudders at some of those delving bosses*

We read infos and saw pictures, gameplay videos about HD, but When will come the original announcement from Turbine?

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Originally Posted by AaylaKheledlire

We read infos and saw pictures, gameplay videos about HD, but When will come the original announcement from Turbine?

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With rumours about upcoming beta tests I really wonder if I actually might have missed the preorder O.o

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

they called retraiting "re-spec" before. mentioned somewhere else that will not be able to retrait just a few points but the whole thing. so re-spec will be the whole thing. which, just costs silver and on the move.

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I didn't mean this exactly, but I realise I could have answered my question at the end myself. I am well aware that if you want to change the trait distribution within a chosen specialisation, you need to do it all over again, just like in MC. What I speculated about was whether you could change specialisationson the fly, which I guess are similar to warsteed types. The most probable answer is that we will be able to, but we will have only two trait slots to do it, as in MC.

To clarify, here is an example - you play a minstrel, and one of your trait slots is a healer specialisation. You get some healing bonuses, like specific traits/skills/bonuses (which I theorise is what we see left of the three trait lines). Then, in another trait slot, you choose a DPS specialisation; you get different bonuses to the left, and you trait mostly in your red trait line. After that, you can switch between the two trait specs out of combat at will (without any cost). If you want to specialise in the third trait line, however, you will either have to rearrange one of your existing trait specs (which will cost silver), or unlock a third trait slot with mithril coins or TPs.

This probably means that the other two tabs are indeed racial traits and virtues, as many people said above. By the way, I wonder whether non-capstone legendary traits by any chance part of those specialisation bonuses the devs spoke about in the Twitter chat? I'd guess they are, it would make sense ...

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Originally Posted by AaylaKheledlire

We read infos and saw pictures, gameplay videos about HD, but When will come the original announcement from Turbine?

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Probably around end of April 2013

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Originally Posted by Adanamir

I didn't mean this exactly, but I realise I could have answered my question at the end myself. I am well aware that if you want to change the trait distribution within a chosen specialisation, you need to do it all over again, just like in MC. What I speculated about was whether you could change specialisationson the fly, which I guess are similar to warsteed types. The most probable answer is that we will be able to, but we will have only two trait slots to do it, as in MC.

To clarify, here is an example - you play a minstrel, and one of your trait slots is a healer specialisation. You get some healing bonuses, like specific traits/skills/bonuses (which I theorise is what we see left of the three trait lines). Then, in another trait slot, you choose a DPS specialisation; you get different bonuses to the left, and you trait mostly in your red trait line. After that, you can switch between the two trait specs out of combat at will (without any cost). If you want to specialise in the third trait line, however, you will either have to rearrange one of your existing trait specs (which will cost silver), or unlock a third trait slot with mithril coins or TPs.

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Yep, that's pretty much exactly it.

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By the way, I wonder whether non-capstone legendary traits by any chance part of those specialisation bonuses the devs spoke about in the Twitter chat? I'd guess they are, it would make sense ...

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Some may be, some may not. You'll notice the Eagle, currently a non-capstone legendary, is near the top of the blue tree for LMs.
Since non-capstones can be used in multiple builds, I doubt most of them will end up being specialization bonuses, since their whole purpose is being able to be equipped at any time. Even something like "Challenge the Darkness" would be tough to place in one specialization, since the way guards are set up it's effective in two different trait lines (since the guard has two tank lines).

Yep, but about Pre-order :)

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Originally Posted by TinDragon

I'm not too sure on this for two reasons.
1) When they had first stated consolidation was a big thing, that was several months before they had mentioned anything about skills being limited to trait trees. I have a feeling not as many skills will be consolidated as you may think.

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from the ~21 current class deeds like that, I would think those would be reduced, so the total of ~80 you said seems too high imo.

going off the assumtion it costs 5 points to get to the next layor (looks like it). notice that if it costs 31 points to get the capstone and if the off line you go to costs twice as much, that'll cost 62 to cap that. at 77 points total thats 31 in main line minimum to get to capstone then a spare 46 points in your secondary line, which will get you ~2/3 down it.

I expect the line to be split up into sections too. capstone with markers of epicness along the way that might unlock skills or epic bonuses. if 77 was max, you'd be getting all your main line and 2/3rd of another, which sounds like nice choice tbh.

wouln't just be choosing what line you went down, but also what was your secondary. ofc you wouldn't get the set bonuses from your spec. but instead of just A/B/C, it's more like Ab,Ac,Ba,Bc,Ca,Cb with also a large choice how to even your mainline to your secondary/tertiary line. which sounds like some good viable choice to me.

why I say 77 might be the max. I also don't think that number came out of random for MC too. might be a plan there...

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2) Whenever they change skills around, consolidate, etc they've ended up changing the requirements for the deeds. Obviously part of that reasoning is because they needed to keep that many deeds since they kept that many traits, but the fact that they can just change the requirements of the deeds tells me that they're more likely to change than completely remove deeds.

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not completely remove, just remove some. it'll be there where the total numbers will be able to be maniplulate as they'll need legadary books and stuff to still give a class banus (class point).

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I haven't seen that, but I doubt you're lying and it does make sense that if specialization starts at 6, so do the points

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one of the first things we got told if thats still the design.

something like

"you will choose a specification at level 6, you can respec."

I assume thats like leaving the intro area you get to see how your class will really be. like SWTOR kinda. but instead of a choice that changes your class massively you might hate, it's a smaller choice you might be able to afford to change in a few levels.

I suspect it'll just give you a choice of what horse/spec you choose and not give a point, then a point every odd level till 95

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Originally Posted by Adanamir

To clarify, here is an example - you play a minstrel, and one of your trait slots is a healer specialisation. You get some healing bonuses, like specific traits/skills/bonuses (which I theorise is what we see left of the three trait lines). Then, in another trait slot, you choose a DPS specialisation; you get different bonuses to the left, and you trait mostly in your red trait line. After that, you can switch between the two trait specs out of combat at will (without any cost). If you want to specialise in the third trait line, however, you will either have to rearrange one of your existing trait specs (which will cost silver), or unlock a third trait slot with mithril coins or TPs.

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oh sorry, didn't think of that. I wouldn't mind it to cost a little, we've been told it's still only silver, so it's a tiny money sink to many capped players (larger for leveling players ofc). so I'd expect it'll cost money always as those high levels would be the ones retraiting the most. well, maybe. no idea tbh.

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Originally Posted by Adanamir

I wonder whether non-capstone legendary traits by any chance part of those specialisation bonuses the devs spoke about

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can see on the screenshot we got on lore-master that the eagle (earned from 45 class quests) is very low on the blue line. it also looks like the bog leerker is on the set bonuses for blue too, assuming that is the set bonuses on the right.

we don't see any others. unless the ring of fire thing is sticky gourd, but that means sticky gourd is no longer capstone and that tornado thing took over.

but they could also just be some placeholders in the mean time.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's a mix of both. some old legandaries go to set bonuses, some just on the tree. I'm sure there will be better new traits and we shouldn't really call them legandary anymore XD weird to think sometimes but it's not like some of them wore anyway. it'd be nice to see some brand new ones.

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Originally Posted by Pelenthius

As the "Community Manager" I have a question for you. Is Turbine specifically trying to drive off all of the Lifetime/Founder accounts? I see no purpose of making such dramatic & drastic changes to a perfectly fine system, much less put stuff into a "WOW" cloned Tree.

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What does your heart tell you?

Of all the things I have read today, and there are many because that is largely how I spend my time these days, I found this quote the most entertaining and relevant to this discussion:

"Specialization is for insects."
- Robert Heinlein

Cheers -- :cool:

OK, maybe I'm one of the minority here, but I'm looking forward to giving the trees a go.

That might be influenced by the fact that I was waiting ages for DDO to add the enhancement trees, and was definitely not disappointed by them. :D
Which also leads me to wonder if there was a global tree-system design team. Or maybe DDO and LOTRO just passed notes across the hall. ;)

But what I'm really wondering, and crossing my fingers for, is that it appears the new class tree won't be partially subscription locked anymore.
Ooooooh, that would make me so happy.....;)... but I'll hold my enthusiasm till I know for certain.

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Originally Posted by Widmore

But what I'm really wondering, and crossing my fingers for, is that it appears the new class tree won't be partially subscription locked anymore.
Ooooooh, that would make me so happy.....;)... but I'll hold my enthusiasm till I know for certain.

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From the twitter QA:

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Q3: Leixy: Using war-steeds as a template, how will trait points be earned and spent on trait trees? #LOTRO
A3: HoarseDev: You’ll earn a point every other level. You’ll also earn points from some deeds. #LOTRO
A3a:You’ll choose a specialization at an early level that will grant specific bonuses and affect the cost of traits as you spend them #LOTRO

Q5: banjolier: For players who spent TP to unlock trait slots, how will you convert our existing purchases to the new system? #LOTRO
A5: HoarseDev: Your specialization choice gives you access to bonuses as you spend points. #LOTRO
A5a: These are unlocked in the same way as the old slots and those purchases carry over to the new system. #LOTRO

Q6: Laire: Will we be able to save different trait set-ups? If so, how many? #LOTRO
A6: HoarseDev: Two set-ups to start. You can purchase more if you like. #LOTRO

Q7: Grhysli: How much of this new system is going to be gated behind the LOTRO Store? #LOTRO
A7: HoarseDev: Only the slots similar to the old Premium/F2P purchases and additional builds after the two you get for free. #LOTRO

Q22: @brrzap can we change specializations later or is this a 1-time choice? #lotro
A22: DeviledEGG Yes you can change your specializations. Respecing your tree will also allow you to choose a new specialization.

Q25: @ElinneaG Will new characters be able to see all the traits/skills before choosing a specialization? #LOTRO
A25: HoarseDev Yes. You'll be able to see all specializations and trees before deciding. #LOTRO

Q27: @nick_wilbur you guys keep saying specialization will be chosen at a low level & bonuses granted. Initially, what can we expect with toons at 85?
A27: DeviledEGG We'll autogrant you the correct number of points for your level. #LOTRO
A27a: Deeds that previously gave traits will give trait points. #LOTRO
A27b: You can choose your specialization and spend your points when you login when HD goes live. #LOTRO

Q33: @Scoed To respec for silver, will we have to refund and respend all points, or just the parts we want to change? #LOTRO
A33: HoarseDev It's all or nothing. #LOTRO

Q37: @Lord_Dolvic will we still have "use skill X" deeds, legendary trait page deeds and quests? Will they now reward trait points? #LOTRO
A37: DeviledEGG Completing these deeds will now reward trait points.
A37a: Jinjaah If you have already completed these deeds, your progress will be carried over. #LOTRO

Q39: @leixicon will all trait lines still be auto-unlocked for VIPs? #LOTRO
A39: Hoarsedev Yes they will. #LOTRO

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So there will be some gating behind TP.
For sure for the number of saved builds (2 are free).

It seems that maybe like the warsteed trees that one specialization will be free , whether you can choose which one or if it is given for a class (like the blue line is always free) is another question.
Maybe all specializations are open but only certain bonuses are not (see Q5) so maybe the set bonuses on the left are TP gated?

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

do you really think they would change a class so drastically?

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You DID say three posts earlier...

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

they have said something along the lines of "our current classes can do to much which makes instances too each. our updated classes won't be able to do everything and have people make some serious choices". which sounds like a nurf in some sence imo.

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... so yes. Not only do I (a stranger to the conversation) think they would change a class so drastically, but apparently TURBINE thinks they would change a class so drastically, and since you quoted them you believe they would change a class very drastically as well. I'd call it a drastic change to take a class that can do a lot, and "update" it to where it can't do everything. I think that making a tank less of a tank is NOT as drastic as taking a class that can almost do everything and reducing it to where you need a party to replace it.

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Originally Posted by bongart

You DID say three posts earlier...

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keep it in context. that was to someone saying they would turn tanks into dps'ers. I think thats ludicrous. ofc, expect big things, but in the confines of what relates to your class now, you class will *feel* new, not be completely changed you won't even recognise it.

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I think that making a tank less of a tank is NOT as drastic as taking a class that can almost do everything and reducing it to where you need a party to replace it.

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like speculated in the guardian thread, I think they will be close. an aggro tank and a defensive tank for blue and yellow. ofc with an aggro tank you will need help with your survival more than we've been before, and yes, *maybe* that line does more dps than blue, but by no means a dps class in the group. and with defence, I suspect we'll have another class who can manage the groups aggro like a support class we don't usally have (blue LM, yellow warden, yellow champ, yellow burg, yellow hunter, red RK maybe)

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

so you admit that it's not WAI yet?

just need to get that over and done first.

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Actually ColorSpecs asked YOU his question first... you just ignored it, didn't answer, and instead asked him to admit the system was broken. In truth, he never said to begin with that the system WASN'T broken or in need of repair. He commented on the CHOICE of REPAIR used.

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

the current trait system also is too open ended.

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Define this please, without using the phrase "open ended" in the definition. And remember, if you can simply pay silver and respec your character again (just like you could pay silver and change traits in the existing system) then the NEW system is just as "open ended" as the old one. The difference here, is that I worked my tail off to get all the traits I currently have now. With the new system, I lose them unless I spend a pile of points to get specific ones back. Of course, once I spend those points to get those specific traits back, I lose access to the other ones I worked my tail off to get. Oh wait... I can spend silver and respec. Which REALLY means that I can still swap traits and such but it just takes a ton of time to do so.

However, I'd still like to hear why you believe it is more open ended now than it will be in the future.

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

we've been told many times that there new designed is each spec having a set roll and classes unable to do as much all at once. anyway they do the buffet system with a greater focus on the set bonuse (which we're basically in a tree system tbh...) would mean that it's too open ended. so trees was the simplest solution to focus classes into rolls

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I don't follow this.

At any rate, I'd also be interested in hearing how mentioning "tin hats" is in any way positive, as you have pointed out that in bringing up your usage of the phrase is focusing on the negative. It appears more like YOU are being insulting by even taking the conversation in that direction by using the phrase. I can't think of a single way to use the phrase "tin hats" and have it be positive. Oh, and if you do attempt to come up with a positive way to use it, make sure you explain exactly how you INTENDED the phrase to be taken when you did use it.

Or are you going to just ignore what I'm saying and gloss over it as you appear to be doing?

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

from the ~21 current class deeds like that, I would think those would be reduced, so the total of ~80 you said seems too high imo.

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why I say 77 might be the max. I also don't think that number came out of random for MC too. might be a plan there...

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The number I gave was 71. 2 per level starting at level 2 would give 47, plus 24 from class deeds would be 71. Add in the 7 from legendary traits (that I wasn't including) and that'd put you at 78, exactly one point higher than you're estimating. Assuming we don't get any points before 6, that means take two points off that number (for lvl 2 and 4) and that leaves it at 76, one point below your estimation.

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Originally Posted by TinDragon

At the very least we're getting a point every 2 levels and a point for every class deed, so at minimum we should have 71. That's not counting legendary trait deeds/quests or anything else that may also give points.

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

keep it in context. that was to someone saying they would turn tanks into dps'ers.

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I did keep it in context. At the moment, you are the only one taking it out of context. That was to someone who was saying that they were probably going to take tanks and make them LESS of a tank and eventually useless. I'll show you the context you were replying to.

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Originally Posted by Minquinn

My other concerns about this xpac is that tanks will become used far less and ultimately become a useless class.

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There was no mention there by Minquinn of turning a tank into a dps class. It was mention of a fear of the tank class being made useless in general. So... I'm not the one with an issue keeping things in context.

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

I think thats ludicrous. ofc, expect big things, but in the confines of what relates to your class now, you class will *feel* new, not be completely changed you won't even recognise it.

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I think there is a problem with you not reading what you write. Let me quote you AGAIN...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

they have said something along the lines of "our current classes can do to much which makes instances too each. our updated classes won't be able to do everything and have people make some serious choices". which sounds like a nurf in some sence imo.

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Taking a class from where it could do almost everything, and changing it to where it most definitely CANNOT do everything, and forcing a player to rethink the class/character they play to the point of having to make serious choices.... that sounds a whole lot like changing a character class beyond the point of recognition. Your words.

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Originally Posted by bongart

Actually ColorSpecs asked YOU his question first...

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10 posts and your recalling everything I posted...

read back. everything you posted I replied to. I will just be repeating myself.

if you don't want speculative answers on little information we get from twitter/forums/others stuff then don't chat on forums. wait till dev dairies/live for facts.

again, that was posted before.

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There was no mention there by Minquinn of turning a tank into a dps class. It was mention of a fear of the tank class being made useless in general.

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same thing. very negative at something I highly doubt the team will do.

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Taking a class from where it could do almost everything, and changing it to where it most definitely CANNOT do everything, and forcing a player to rethink the class/character they play to the point of having to make serious choices.... that sounds a whole lot like changing a character class beyond the point of recognition.

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you will still have the core elements of your class. your champion can still dps, aoe and tank. just not all at once. there not going to change a tank to a dps class. there not going to make classes useless. your rotations and mechanisms will not be the same, it might *feel* differant. but it won't be a completely new class from the ground up. a champion won't suddenly become the preimum pet class. the wardens not going to be able to perma stun targets. the minstrel won't turn into a tank.

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Originally Posted by TinDragon

The number I gave was 71. (editted)1 per 2 levels(/editted) starting at level 2 would give 47, plus 24 from class deeds would be 71. Add in the 7 from legendary traits (that I wasn't including) and that'd put you at 78, exactly one point higher than you're estimating. Assuming we don't get any points before 6, that means take two points off that number (for lvl 2 and 4) and that leaves it at 76, one point below your estimation.

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there are actually 22 class deeds iinc. 2 traits are given from class quests. think thats the same with all classes. but still, I'd expect those class quests to give a point each too.

77 does sounds reasonable imo. that makes it look possible without removing any deeds. just changing slightly if they get broken ofc.

hope thats true tbh then. think around 70-80 is a nice number in total for good choice but not feeling very empty.

also I said ~80 because you said minimum of 71, wasn't sure what that ment exactly of a maximum. every play style will go for the maximum amount of class points, even 1 point off could mean your missing some potent trait.

Looks great so far. I hope this finally gets rid of the clunky nature (slow animations, clumsy feel) to many of these classes. This thing has on more than 1 occasion driven away players whom I have invited to the game. Especially burg and LM. Paring down these cluttered relic classes will be a breath of fresh air.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bongart

I did keep it in context. At the moment, you are the only one taking it out of context. That was to someone who was saying that they were probably going to take tanks and make them LESS of a tank and eventually useless. I'll show you the context you were replying to.



There was no mention there by Minquinn of turning a tank into a dps class. It was mention of a fear of the tank class being made useless in general. So... I'm not the one with an issue keeping things in context.




I think there is a problem with you not reading what you write. Let me quote you AGAIN...



Taking a class from where it could do almost everything, and changing it to where it most definitely CANNOT do everything, and forcing a player to rethink the class/character they play to the point of having to make serious choices.... that sounds a whole lot like changing a character class beyond the point of recognition. Your words.

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My worries are two fold. Class changes as well as content difficulty.

What happened with ROR was that outside my kin I was invited to less and less groups because my only reason for rolling guardian was to tank instances for other players. Since a tank was no longer needed for 3 and 6 man content I was then competing with other tanks for the 2 spots in most raids.

I will apologize for those I offend with my next statement.
I enjoy grouping in this game at all levels. The 6 man content used to be my favorite content. Since the mobs were hitting like wet noodles I got invited less and less as it became apparent that dps champs could easily tank the content. Why bring a guard or warden to slow down the group dps? We had 4 champs and 2 cappies busting out Bells. 5 champs and a cappy doing many other 6 mans. This is in my own kin and on our server. Many times when I asked if I could tank the content I was asked to switch to a dps toon. This led to my main toon being put on a shelf for everything except maybe every other raid.

Playing a warden has also been a huge dissappointment recently. I stopped playing one when they were rendered useless and then started again during the end of ROI when they were useful again. Then they changed main stats mid xpac. In my estimation done to support the lazy light, medium and heavy loot system of armor. So class changes has never been a strong point of the game aside from when the hunter changes were made back during Mirkwood/ITA. I don't play a cappy but I hear that's a class that got changed quite a bit.

Still think I'm wearing a tin foil hat?
(and I do find that term insulting. I have alot of knowledge about the games I play. I'm not having a paranoid delusion my fear are back with facts.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Minquinn

My worries are two fold. Class changes as well as content difficulty.

What happened with ROR was that outside my kin I was invited to less and less groups because my only reason for rolling guardian was to tank instances for other players. Since a tank was no longer needed for 3 and 6 man content I was then competing with other tanks for the 2 spots in most raids.

I will apologize for those I offend with my next statement.
I enjoy grouping in this game at all levels. The 6 man content used to be my favorite content. Since the mobs were hitting like wet noodles I got invited less and less as it became apparent that dps champs could easily tank the content. Why bring a guard or warden to slow down the group dps? We had 4 champs and 2 cappies busting out Bells. 5 champs and a cappy doing many other 6 mans. This is in my own kin and on our server. Many times when I asked if I could tank the content I was asked to switch to a dps toon. This led to my main toon being put on a shelf for everything except maybe every other raid.

Playing a warden has also been a huge dissappointment recently. I stopped playing one when they were rendered useless and then started again during the end of ROI when they were useful again. Then they changed main stats mid xpac. In my estimation done to support the lazy light, medium and heavy loot system of armor. So class changes has never been a strong point of the game aside from when the hunter changes were made back during Mirkwood/ITA. I don't play a cappy but I hear that's a class that got changed quite a bit.

Still think I'm wearing a tin foil hat?
(and I do find that term insulting. I have alot of knowledge about the games I play. I'm not having a paranoid delusion my fear are back with facts.)

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Champs and Wardens need a nerf. There is an argument to be made that really all classes need a nerf, which is likely what we're getting. I think Guardians will have plenty to do in HD.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Minquinn

My worries are two fold. Class changes as well as content difficulty.

What happened with ROR was that outside my kin I was invited to less and less groups because my only reason for rolling guardian was to tank instances for other players. Since a tank was no longer needed for 3 and 6 man content I was then competing with other tanks for the 2 spots in most raids.

I will apologize for those I offend with my next statement.
I enjoy grouping in this game at all levels. The 6 man content used to be my favorite content. Since the mobs were hitting like wet noodles I got invited less and less as it became apparent that dps champs could easily tank the content. Why bring a guard or warden to slow down the group dps? We had 4 champs and 2 cappies busting out Bells. 5 champs and a cappy doing many other 6 mans. This is in my own kin and on our server. Many times when I asked if I could tank the content I was asked to switch to a dps toon. This led to my main toon being put on a shelf for everything except maybe every other raid.

Playing a warden has also been a huge dissappointment recently. I stopped playing one when they were rendered useless and then started again during the end of ROI when they were useful again. Then they changed main stats mid xpac. In my estimation done to support the lazy light, medium and heavy loot system of armor. So class changes has never been a strong point of the game aside from when the hunter changes were made back during Mirkwood/ITA. I don't play a cappy but I hear that's a class that got changed quite a bit.

Still think I'm wearing a tin foil hat?
(and I do find that term insulting. I have alot of knowledge about the games I play. I'm not having a paranoid delusion my fear are back with facts.)

---

I don't think anything you said was offensive and that you stated your opinion very intelligently and politely. Outside of the hunter class, I don't know a lot about other classes and can't comment specifically on your concerns. But they seem valid and I understand where you're coming from.

I came across a couple of other media previews:

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/s...7754/gameID/45

http://www.onrpg.com/articles/lotro-...nsion-preview/


Nothing really new or different.