Names in Middle-Earth, Quick Guide

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Originally Posted by MataTahu

Let's see if I can ninja a post from a dev... ;)


Pretty sure Esteldin is Es-tell-deen as the name is Sindarin (Estel being a name for Aragorn given by his mother, meaning Hope, I think).

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You are correct, and I'm the one you ninja'd. ;)

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Originally Posted by Argenaut

Berephon, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the "i" customarily (or even always) pronounced as a long e in English? Esteldin then is pronounced EsTELdeen?

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Yep. (Filler text here.)

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Originally Posted by Berephon

As someone else already mentioned, the Men of Westernesse used predominantly Sindarin for naming in Middle-earth. Rhudaur was a Westernesse kingdom, thus the use of Sindarin there. (These are assumed to be the original names of the fortresses, not "modern" terms.) :)

There is little to no Quenya used in our game, so assume Sindarin for any Elvish names.

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Doh! I am forgetting my history. It's been a while since I've read Appendix A; definitely time for another reading.

It's interesting that the name of Ost Guruth managed to survive even with the locals for so long!

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Originally Posted by Laire

It's interesting that the name of Ost Guruth managed to survive even with the locals for so long!

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Ost Guruth did not seem to survive (considering half of it is in ruins), actually locals there are not living there for ages. Most of them wanderers, found it as their new home, or settlement for a while.

Someone teach Berephon how to Multi-Quote! :p

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Originally Posted by SiSL

Ost Guruth did not seem to survive (considering half of it is in ruins), actually locals there are not living there for ages. Most of them wanderers, found it as their new home, or settlement for a while.

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Yes, but the locals call it Ost Guruth nonetheless. One would imagine that a new name would be given to the place by them. I mean, where did they learn the name?

In fact this is how I made all my characters names for Lotro, freep and creep alike, coming from the back of the Silmarillion.

Freeps:
Atanikano - Commander of the Second People (aka Men, Atan as the plural form for Adan, or Edain as another plural form), Surname: Menelmir - The Heaven's Jewel

Edhelkano - Commander of the Elves

Kemenheru - Earth Lord, Surname: Gondereg - Stone Thorn

Creeps:
Saurdincu - The Abhorrent Silent Bow

I have a few more clever creep names, but I havent played them in so long, i forgot what they are.

And although naming weapons is for moot at the moment, I usually do try and keep it in the language, such as Raukobane (obviously "bane" isn't neceissarily Tolkienish, but it works with the word Rauko for demon, being Demon Bane)

1. I agree with the suggestion to sticky this post. Awesome quick reference.

2. My sub-suggestion: As one who is linguistically challenged . . . I suggest we get one of the highly lore literate (or someone who has lots of time and can do audio capture from the game) to create audio files of pronunciations of as much of this as possible and link to them from the post. Maybe even a prounciation of all the place names in the game. Linked to in the lorebook!

How do I pronounce Esteldin? Click here! Ooooo. Now I get it. Garth Argawen? Gabilshathur? I may not ever remember how to spell them, but if I hear them said, I'll finally know how to say them!

~ Wil

Added Tyl, Tyrn, Tûm, Men

Great post! Please stickify!

Now...I wonder where a name like Amonceleb (surnamed "Silverhill") could have come from...? /teehee :D

You're doing plurals? Well, put "erain" in there as well- Erain is plural for Aran. It took me a while to figure it out... but I *did*. Yes, I'm proud of myself.

Speaking of plurals, there should be a Sindarin plural guide. My command on Sindarin plurals is a bit dismal, but I know a bit XD I also rechecked it with sites I trust, so gained a bit more there.

OP, again, do w/e you want with this ^^ If you do add it on, hopefully some others can add to it.



Sindarin Plurals

Sindarin plurals are somewhat challenging, and can make a Sindarin word you know (such as 'aran', or 'king') completely different ('erain', or 'kings'). So, here's a little tidbit on Sindarin plurals.

In Sindarin it's the vowels of the word that change, and they change differently depending on whether they are a final vowel (the last vowel in a word, or in words with only one vowel) or a non-final vowel (the vowels before the last vowel). I only touched briefly on accented vowels. Here is a basic guide to how to make a word plural in Sindarin:

NON-FINAL VOWEL

A- Changes into an 'e'. (Mallorn --> Mellyrn; Amon --> Emyn; Dunadan --> Dunedain)
AU/AW- Changes into 'oe' (Naug --> Noeg)
E- Does not change (Mellon --> Mellyn)
I- Does not change (Ithorn --> Ithyrn)
O- O is confusing. It can change into an 'e' (Orod --> Ered) but there are cases of it not changing at all (such as 'roval' in Landroval). In archaic Sindarin ö was used, and may have survived in some words.
U- If a short u, it changes into 'y' (tulus --> tylys); if a long u, it changes into 'ui'.
Y- Does not change.

FINAL VOWEL/ONE SYLLABLE WORD

A- In polysyllabic words, changes into 'ai' usually (Adan --> Edain; Aran --> Erain); rare cases of 'e' and 'ei' survive from early Sindarin. In MOST monosyllabic words, changes into 'e' (Fang --> Feng), though 'ai' is also seen.
AI- Often unchanged, but in some cases changes to 'î' (Cair --> Cîr), and in even rarer cases, 'ý'.
AU/AW- Changes to 'oe' (Naug --> Noeg)
E- Changes into 'i' (Peredhel --> Peredhil)
EI- Changes to 'î' (Feir --> Fîr)
IE- I'm not sure; one source states 'i', but I haven't found any evidence for it yet.
IO- Changes to 'y' (Thalion --> Thalyn); 'ui' exists only in archaic Sindarin.
O- Changes to 'y' (Orch --> Yrch; Mallorn --> Mellyrn); a few rare cases of it changing to 'e' (Orod --> Ered). According to Tolkien, 'Enyd' was the correct plural of 'Onod', but people of Gondor may have used 'Ened' *headdesk* Just like modern day English, Sindarin by LOTR's time varied in spelling by what region you were from!
U- If a short u, it changes into 'y' (tulus --> tylys); if a long u, it changes into 'ui'. In a monosyllable word, changes into 'ui'.
Ú/Û- Changes to 'ui' (Dûr --> Duir)
UI- Does not change. (Lithui --> Lithui)
Y- Does not change.

CLASS PLURALS

-ath is one of the most common 'group plurals' for nouns (Elen + ath = Elenath, or host of stars seen in the sky). In some cases an 'i' appears before it, making it -iath (Gil + iath = Giliath, or stars).

A small tidbit taken from Ardalambion:
If the ending -ath is added to a noun ending in -nc or -m, they would for phonological reasons change to -ng- and double -mm-, respectively, whereas final -nt and -nd would both become -nn-: The class plurals of words like ranc "arm", lam "tongue", cant "shape" and thond "root" would evidently be rangath, lammath, cannath, thonnath, respectively. Also remember that since the sound [v] is spelt f only finally, it would be spelt as it is pronounced - simply v - if any ending is appended. Hence the class-plural of a word like ylf "drinking-vessel" must be written ylvath.

For peoples/races, the class plural -rim was often used (such as Rohirrim). The class plural -hoth (such as Glamhoth) was used as well for peoples/races, but "nearly always used in a bad sense", according to the Silmarillion.


If you have any more information about this, do speak up.




As I was doing this, I noted that accents really changed when words were brought together to form a compound word (DÛN + ADAN = DÚNADAN) as well as when they formed plurals.

Another interesting thing to note is Sindarin really likes to sound nice. So you will see 'c' change to 'g' in the spelling if it is naturally pronounced like that (Pinnath Gelin vs Pinnath Celin- while "celin" is the correct word, the 'c' sounds like a 'g' when spoken, so the spelling is changed to fit the pronunciation). When coming up with Sindarin names, keep that in mind. The 'c' and 'g' case is not the only case of mutation, either. But that's a whole other topic to cover, and I barely understood all of the plurals, nevertheless the mutations :P

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Originally Posted by SiSL

[LIST][*]iath: Fence (Doriath, Osgiliath)
[LIST]

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Small correction... Osgiliath actually comes from Ost + Giliath = Citadel of the Stars

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Originally Posted by Linwen

Small correction... Osgiliath actually comes from Ost + Giliath = Citadel of the Stars

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Correct, that's what it is called as a fame, however not direct translation; Gilliath mean "Fence of stars" and OST is Fortress..

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Originally Posted by SiSL

Correct, that's what it is called as a fame, however not direct translation; Gilliath mean "Fence of stars" and OST is Fortress..

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Incorrect- as I stated in my plurals post, '-iath' is a class plural. Giliath literally means 'stars', so Ost + Giliath = Citadel of the Stars. :)

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Originally Posted by Laire

Speaking of plurals, there should be a Sindarin plural guide. My command on Sindarin plurals is a bit dismal, but I know a bit XD I also rechecked it with sites I trust, so gained a bit more there.

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Here you go :) (No entry under a column means no mutation in that case):

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Original Vowels Non-final Syllables Final Syllables
a, â.......................e ........................ ai
e, ê.......................e.... ......................i,î
i,î.......................... i...........................i, î
o, ô.......................e.... ......................y, ŷ
u...........................y. .........................y
û...........................à º, u.......................ui
ŷ............................. ..........................ŷ
ai............................ ..........................ai
ae.........................ae. ........................ae
au.........................au, ó.....................oe
ie............................ ..........................i
io............................ ..........................y
ui..........................ui ..........................ui

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Originally Posted by Laire

Incorrect- as I stated in my plurals post, '-iath' is a class plural. Giliath literally means 'stars', so Ost + Giliath = Citadel of the Stars. :)

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And yes, as Laire points out, there are also class plurals like this. :) Iâth does mean "fence," but not in this case. This is the class plural ending -iath.

very very cool!

oh hey, here's a nub question :p if i want a nickname somethin like a 'red (car) wolf (draug)', how would it be called?

Cardraug?
Caradraug?
Draugcar?
Draugnacar?

just throwing ideas there :/

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Originally Posted by Redbeaver

very very cool!

oh hey, here's a nub question :p if i want a nickname somethin like a 'red (car) wolf (draug)', how would it be called?

Cardraug?
Caradraug?
Draugcar?
Draugnacar?

just throwing ideas there :/

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Cardraug or Cardrog. It's actually Carn + Draug, but n following r before a consonant generally drops off (unless the consonant is a g, in which case it remains.) -au often becomes -o in compounds (such as Balrog or Rogmul), but not always (Agamaur). Don't ask more specifics on the latter...that's our linguist's expertise.

If both elements were nouns, they would reverse. Wolf of Ice would become Ice-wolf (Helegdrog). Adjective-noun compounds start with the adjective.

I used a couple of lists similar to this when I named my Lore-Master. I ended up calling him "Uilrandir," meaning (I hope) "Twilight Wanderer."

I also used them when I named my hunter "Daefaroth," but I can't remember what that means.

SL

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Originally Posted by Berephon

Cardraug or Cardrog. It's actually Carn + Draug, but n following r before a consonant generally drops off (unless the consonant is a g, in which case it remains.) -au often becomes -o in compounds (such as Balrog or Rogmul), but not always (Agamaur). Don't ask more specifics on the latter...that's our linguist's expertise.

If both elements were nouns, they would reverse. Wolf of Ice would become Ice-wolf (Helegdrog). Adjective-noun compounds start with the adjective.

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you, sir, are the BEST!

thank you :)

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Originally Posted by Silverlocket

I used a couple of lists similar to this when I named my Lore-Master. I ended up calling him "Uilrandir," meaning (I hope) "Twilight Wanderer."

I also used them when I named my hunter "Daefaroth," but I can't remember what that means.

SL

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Daefaroth is "Great Hunters" or "Hunters of the Shadow." (Unfortunately, it is plural...multiple personalities? ;) )

Your original would actually be Uiallandir (uial + randir, "Wanderer of the Twilight".) r becomes l when preceded by an l, but dang close, boss! Right track, for sure! :)

Love this post -- credit to the OP. I scanned through the list for things to add, and thought I might comment on one of the entries:

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Originally Posted by SiSL

agar: blood (Garth Agarwen)

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Agar does mean blood, but bloodstained is Agarwean. The etymology of "Garth Agarwen" is interesting -- because the suffix "-wen" means "woman" or "maiden" and Garth Agarwen is the haven of the "Blood Maiden". Therefore, one might surmise that the people of the area named the land "Garth Agarwen instead of Agarwean because it was a play on words -- a natural combining of the words "bloodstained" and "maiden" to come up with the name for the "bloodstained maiden" of the "bloodstained fortress" (Garth Agarwean). That's actually how a lot of words change in spelling over time -- props to the devs who came up with it.

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Originally Posted by Gumawerian

Love this post -- credit to the OP. I scanned through the list for things to add, and thought I might comment on one of the entries:



Agar does mean blood, but bloodstained is Agarwean. The etymology of "Garth Agarwen" is interesting -- because the suffix "-wen" means "woman" or "maiden" and Garth Agarwen is the haven of the "Blood Maiden". Therefore, one might surmise that the people of the area named the land "Garth Agarwen instead of Agarwean because it was a play on words -- a natural combining of the words "bloodstained" and "maiden" to come up with the name for the "bloodstained maiden" of the "bloodstained fortress" (Garth Agarwean). That's actually how a lot of words change in spelling over time -- props to the devs who came up with it.

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I can answer that one...it has to do with the Red-maid. It is indeed the Fortress of the Blood-maiden.

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Originally Posted by Gumawerian

Love this post -- credit to the OP. I scanned through the list for things to add, and thought I might comment on one of the entries:



Agar does mean blood, but bloodstained is Agarwean. The etymology of "Garth Agarwen" is interesting -- because the suffix "-wen" means "woman" or "maiden" and Garth Agarwen is the haven of the "Blood Maiden". Therefore, one might surmise that the people of the area named the land "Garth Agarwen instead of Agarwean because it was a play on words -- a natural combining of the words "bloodstained" and "maiden" to come up with the name for the "bloodstained maiden" of the "bloodstained fortress" (Garth Agarwean). That's actually how a lot of words change in spelling over time -- props to the devs who came up with it.

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Aye, definitely makes sense.


as an aside, sticky this! All people need to see it!

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Originally Posted by MataTahu

Aye, definitely makes sense.


as an aside, sticky this! All people need to see it!

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I second! Sticky this thread, at least in lieu of a better naming policy... ;)