December Newsletter a question

we're removing radiance and not replacing it: all good, but...

in the interview i read about this in novemebr, the interviewed Turbine dude said that radiance served TWO functions: as a gate for raiding AND as a means of itemising gear and rewarding raiders:

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We created a system that was intended to provide both a soft-gating for spaces and to provide some distinction between raid gear from gear that was gained outside of raids,

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source

removing radiance because soft-gating wasn't fun is all well and good - but doesn't it bork the second function of radiance, given that the higher radiance sets aren't um, actually very good? do they get +attribute pts per piece depending on the +rad they had or some other sort of compensatory bonus? have ppl been grinding +15/+25/+30 sets for the laughs? or will my tailor start making bucketloads of gold selling lothlorien sets to ppl who previously wore now pretty much sub-par +30 rad sets?

BG set is really good for some classes. So is the DN set for some classes.

I look forward to getting rid of about half my armor and keeping a set for PVE and (likely) a set for the 'moors.

I look forward to perhaps alting once again (went from 4 SoA raid-able toons to a main and a poorly-geared second), without the dreadful token grind for entry-level rad gear.

I look forward to seeing more kinnies able to participate in end game content, and also Rift-style pugs and a refreshed friends list of successful Pugraiders*.

I look forward to more folks raiding in general, with the F2P'ers ascension to lvl cap and their purchase of what I imagine will be raid-packs. (insert Lotro store banner here, here, and here). (Oh, and There, too.)

I don't look forward to pitching some of the stuff I struggled to get with the kin, but such are the ways Mummorpergers** and dynamic, progressive content.

*, ** Hmmm, I reckon my next toon's name shall be Pugraider Mummorperger

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Originally Posted by Beschutzer

But I took months to grind my rad gear and this is not fair to me!

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My faith in humanity, er..dwarvendom, is restored.

The answer to the gating question is simple; Radience Gating is being replaced by Money Gating.

We will have to pay for every single instance, raid and skirmish in the future as well as the expansions.

No Pay, No Play... no need for any other gating. :(

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Originally Posted by Caerylwyn

The answer to the gating question is simple; Radience Gating is being replaced by Money Gating.

We will have to pay for every single instance, raid and skirmish in the future as well as the expansions.

No Pay, No Play... no need for any other gating. :(

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Baseless misinformation FTW! Did we pay for the scaled classic instances?

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Originally Posted by Elderban

From what I understand based on chats, dev responses, etc. is that they will be going back to the old lock and key method a-la The Rift, Carn Dum, etc.

Not sure how that will affect the pre-Watcher instances because I don't see needing six different keys to get into the Watcher's lair. They may end up completely revamping it, though, so who knows.

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I don't know. I don't think keys would be needed for the six instances, but maybe items are. Say for example, Forgotten Treasury drops a key for Grand Stair to open the gate in the very beginning that normally opens after the dialogue. Grand Stair drops a refillable water pouch to be used in Forges. Forges drops an armor disguise to sneak into Fil Gashan doors. Fil Gashan drops a sword sharp enough to cut through the spider webbings in Skumfil. I was thinking that spider acid for Skum can clean off the crystal in front of Dark Delving, letting it shine once more and opening the door, but that leaves out 16th Hall. Don't know how 16th would fit in. Lastly, you get a very bright stone from Dark Delving that you drop in the Vile Maw to summon the Watcher.

In a way, each instance kind of prepared you for the next gear wise. GS dropped fire resist gear for Forges, Fil Gashan drop acid resist, so on and so forth. But gating by items reminds me to much of the Legend of Zelda. (Which I love that series, at least the earlier games)

I've never gotten why MMOs bother with super challangeing raids that only rhe top raiders can do. why waste time on content only 10-20% of your player base will ever be able to complete?

Not for the people actually getting it done, but for the much larger number who have that as a something to work towards.

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Originally Posted by BrianDavion

I've never gotten why MMOs bother with super challangeing raids that only rhe top raiders can do. why waste time on content only 10-20% of your player base will ever be able to complete?

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besides working towards it (which is the hallmark of a mmorpg, see "progression"), 10-20% loss of revenue from a player-base would bankrupt most companies.

raid gear should be the best, because at some point we all have a 65 toon that will run out of things to do. Your options will be raid content, or PVP. Some ppl don't like starting a 3rd or 4th alt, but rather tweak their existing mains.

Gear gating was a bad idea from day one.

Deed/key gating worked, and continues to work, just fine.

The biggest problem with end-game gear (besides rad) is the inconsistent variance in stats.
From SoA 50 gear (including rift, hele, annuminas) to moria 50-55 gear, there is an unecessary jump in stats. My alts bypassed SoA content, not because i couldn't get groups (i could), but because the gear rewards in moria were just clearly superior.

Then, Mirkwood came out, Turbine realized they went to far "upwards" with gear stats in moria, and so "nerfed" Mirkwood gear so that it was only marginally better than 60 gear, or sometimes even an unappealing side-grade.

The gear stat numbers need to find the "curve" again.

Also (as i ran CD last night again and noticed all the random drops of gear that I remember being "sweet" back in the day) we need random gear to drop the same way outside SoA zones.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

Radiance is being removed, not replaced. There is no other gating mechanic being added.

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Not even a deed like new Helegrod? .... that's weird. :confused:

We could end up getting new hope token recipes that will replace radiance as the new raid gate. And as we know Turbine sells recipes in the store. Have the new recipes drop from classic instances with a drop rate of .1% like stat tomes. A good way to milk more money out of us.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

Radiance is being removed, not replaced. There is no other gating mechanic being added.

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Was that really so painful? Couldn't we have gotten this answer months ago to avoid all the speculation and arguments?

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Originally Posted by Khafar

I must have missed the part where they said that removing radiance gating would mean raids would drop all their rewards for every person participating on the first run through.

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You're talking about what is going to drop (which we know all about in SoM) while I'm talking about what do I need to do to defeat an encounter. Two completely different things.

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Losing the radiance will mean people like me will probably get to sight-see once or twice. It doesn't mean we'll be snapping our fingers and getting all the rewards they have to offer.

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That's my question: will you be able to snap your fingers (read: school/library) and get an awsome reward?

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Any reward that both requires a group and requires lots of iteration is something I'm absolutely never going to get, so you're safe from getting overrun by hordes of casuals.

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So... Why are we debating the radiance issue here? If you don't care for any group content, what are you doing here debating gate or no gate? It doesn't seem to mater to you (according to your quote above)

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Besides, why do you really care? It took me quite awhile to get to level 50 on my first character, but players these days can do it in a month or less. Who cares? It's not a competition for limited resources - I'm no better off if you suck, and no worse off if you don't. "Game Experience May Change During Online Play". They could improve that sentence by changing "May" to "Will".

Khafar

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I respect your playstyle and your goal while playing Lotro. I really do. The thing is, the same way you probably have 20 alts and love do the same quests over and over and really enjoy a new cloak that the store sells, there are other people who have one or two toons (in my case 3) that get all the love. And we want to maximize our toons and expose them to challenges. No, I don't to level another Alt or grind more rep.

And lots of quests and fun stuff have been hapening for your playstyle and I'm happy for you. But I think it's time for the other people to get a little love as well. Cause no one can live by him/herself, even someone like you needs other people once in a while...

RicardoFurriel

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Originally Posted by Ulrek

Legendaries being removed? What do legendaries have to do with armor anyway?

As I see it this now gives people a better chance to mix and match gear that might even be better than "rad" gear...

Also it has the potential to make crafted armor usable again to more people...

Additionally more people will try these previously gated instances which is also a good thing.

I dont really see a downside of this.

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Downside *may* be that the encounters are dumb down to accommodate all types of players. If it's easy, everyone can experiment sucess. Everyone's happy, at least for a week. That's the downside.
LFM SH EM or SG... :)

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Originally Posted by BrianDavion

I've never gotten why MMOs bother with super challangeing raids that only rhe top raiders can do. why waste time on content only 10-20% of your player base will ever be able to complete?

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As much as I hate WoW, I think they have the right kind of idea here. What they do (at least did when I was playing) is make whatever the new raid is really difficult. Then when they release the next raid, they make the previous one easier. This way the hardcore people can get the latest, greatest gear and always have something to challenge themselves with, but more casual players can still experience the content, albeit a few months later.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

Radiance is being removed, not replaced. There is no other gating mechanic being added.

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All I can say to that is woot!! Thank you very much!!

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Originally Posted by BrianDavion

I've never gotten why MMOs bother with super challangeing raids that only rhe top raiders can do. why waste time on content only 10-20% of your player base will ever be able to complete?

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Because they are the most vocal. Squeaky wheel and all that.

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Originally Posted by aleczander

besides working towards it (which is the hallmark of a mmorpg, see "progression"), 10-20% loss of revenue from a player-base would bankrupt most companies.

raid gear should be the best, because at some point we all have a 65 toon that will run out of things to do. Your options will be raid content, or PVP. Some ppl don't like starting a 3rd or 4th alt, but rather tweak their existing mains.

Gear gating was a bad idea from day one.

Deed/key gating worked, and continues to work, just fine.

The biggest problem with end-game gear (besides rad) is the inconsistent variance in stats.
From SoA 50 gear (including rift, hele, annuminas) to moria 50-55 gear, there is an unecessary jump in stats. My alts bypassed SoA content, not because i couldn't get groups (i could), but because the gear rewards in moria were just clearly superior.

Then, Mirkwood came out, Turbine realized they went to far "upwards" with gear stats in moria, and so "nerfed" Mirkwood gear so that it was only marginally better than 60 gear, or sometimes even an unappealing side-grade.

The gear stat numbers need to find the "curve" again.

Also (as i ran CD last night again and noticed all the random drops of gear that I remember being "sweet" back in the day) we need random gear to drop the same way outside SoA zones.

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This post bring to light the thinking that leads to Grand Stairs Gear being the step just above Rift Gear, then DN Gear, then Sword Halls Gear, then BG Gear. The Classics may end up being the "spice" to liven up different aspects of our classes, the customization we all asked for.
What will be the fly in the ointment is that Moria gear will be lower then it is now and BG gear will be the top end gear when looking at stats. Some call it wild speculation, some call it once bitten, twice shy.
The Recent patch changed some stats on Annumy sets....Helegrod set bonus typo...hmmm They are going to play with our gear a bit, NOT just remove Radiance and dust off their hands. Brace for the restructure.

I never understood the complaints about radiance requirements from non-raiders. Raids inherently have their own gating system in place, and that is that you must be geared up enough and practiced enough to attempt them. Someone who likes to raid and is used to it has little trouble getting the necessary armor (as compared to getting the rare jewelry drops or getting their legendary items into shape). If they removed radiance today, we would not suddenly see more pick up groups taking out the watcher or defeating the lieutenant by the end of the week.

There are good and valid complaints about radiance though from those who noticed that the best armor for a character was not necessarily the armor with the most radiance on it.

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Originally Posted by Lohi

If they removed radiance today, we would not suddenly see more pick up groups taking out the watcher or defeating the lieutenant by the end of the week.

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No, but there would be more pickup groups "attempting" and "sight-seeing". Once your average pug experiences a raid, and wipes, there's a chance he/she will have enough enticement then to work towards better gear and more raid experience, and eventually conquering said raid encounter. Whereas before, not having at least "seen the sights", said casual may not have enough enticement to try.

Not an overly large concern to raid developers, but still it ends up with more ppl utilizing end-game content, and for longer. Maybe not?

Anyway, I agree that non-raiders (at least those who choose that path out of principle, rather than restrictions on playtime/style) should opt out of commenting on raid gating mechanisms...Just like turbine asks us to do when they do an "ask the community" about different classes.

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Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel

If you don't care for any group content, what are you doing here debating gate or no gate?

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I never said "no group". But group + major repetition + gating (which helps limit it even further)? That concept's always seemed like it was created by some sadistic game developer, and I hate that's used as a rationale for a smallish subset of players getting the best rewards. I'd really rather see Turbine get back to Comparable Incomparables, and let people earn great rewards in the playstyle (or playstyles) that they truly enjoy.

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But I think it's time for the other people to get a little love as well.

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I do too, which is why I support a new raid cluster in February -- and a new PvMP area next year too (even though I do very little of either of those). But I'm still glad that the radiance gating is going to vanish -- I might not stick around long enough for many rewards, but I'd still like to at least see some of that content a few times.

Khafar

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Originally Posted by Khafar

Any reward that both requires a group and requires lots of iteration is something I'm absolutely never going to get

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Originally Posted by Khafar

I never said "no group".

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I'm confused...

RicardoFurriel

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But group + major repetition + gating (which helps limit it even further)? That concept's always seemed like it was created by some sadistic game developer, and I hate that's used as a rationale for a smallish subset of players getting the best rewards.

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For you may be. For ohers not so much. In order to Role Play you probably have to obey certain guidelines. In order to raid there should be some guidelines too.

RicardoFurriel

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I'd really rather see Turbine get back to Comparable Incomparables, and let people earn great rewards in the playstyle (or playstyles) that they truly enjoy.

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They got rid of them because people complained on these same forums. "Thaurlach is so hard, you need to have a uber group to beat it! We all pay the same subscription! We want shiny things as well!" And you want them back? Hint: everything (or almost everything) is either bartable, buyable or craftable in-game... What makes you think Turbine is going to change that approach?

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But I'm still glad that the radiance gating is going to vanish

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As someone who doesn't care for grouping or raiding, I still fail to understand why does this affect you... If you wanna take a peek, just check youtube...

RicardoFurriel

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Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel

In order to raid there should be some guidelines too.

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It's supposed to be entertaining, and given the cost to produce this type of content, it should be broadly entertaining. The larger the required group, the longer the per-run time commitment, and the larger the overall time commitment to get rewarded, the smaller the percentage of players who will be doing that activity is going to be. LOTRO isn't nearly the worst in those aspects, but adding in any form of gating is only going to make it worse.

When PlayOn instrumented WoW about 18 months after it shipped, they found something surprising to many players: only about 1 in 6 level-capped characters had been in assorted raid instances long enough (total) to have finished one of them during an entire month. Ouch. It was little wonder that they started making them smaller, shorter, and eventually... ungated. They wanted to get more entertainment bang for the buck out of them, because they're very expensive to create.

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If you wanna take a peek, just check youtube...

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Oh yeah, YouTube will definitely be just as fun as actually experiencing it myself. :rolleyes: No thanks.

Khafar

There was absolutely nothing wrong with end game content in SoA. I daresay that it was perfect from a design standpoint. It had multiple paths of progression that suited a wide variety of play styles. People loved the variety. Radiance was completely unnecessary and the only thing it manages to accomplish is taking the fun out of a video game.