So Orion.. Wardens?

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Originally Posted by jeedai

Loremasters do not need a secondary role because they have no competition for any of their primary roles. They are the only class any of the following: . . . multi-target CC (until Burgs get the OD set).

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Rain of Thorns? Confound?

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Originally Posted by jeedai

Minstrels do not need a secondary role since they have a secure position in their primary. The only class with competitive healing capabilities are Runekeepers who provide far less damage while healing. Regardless, the classes work well together, and most raids contain at least one Minstrel.

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Well, RKs are certainly competitive healers in some fights, given their vastly superior power efficiency. They're secure in the position, but they're both viable healers. (Minstrels bring far better other tools, like rezzes and buffs, but that's another story)

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Originally Posted by jeedai

Compare those to the Warden whose viability as a tank has been hotly debated since their launch. While the consensus is that Wardens are capable of tanking anything in the game, most groups (in my experience) would prefer a Guardian. Without a secondary role, there is much less incentive to invite a Warden than the other classes without one.

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This, in conjunction with your comments about the Minstrel, just emphasizes that we need to buff the Warden as a tank, not that Wardens need a non-tank role in a raid.

ETA: Let me put it this way: can you really see Spear Traited Wardens in Recklessness doing competitive single-target DPS to, say, a Champ or Hunter? Because that's the other role we'll get, because it doesn't take a total rework of the class.

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Originally Posted by ANewMachine

ETA: Let me put it this way: can you really see Spear Traited Wardens in Recklessness doing competitive single-target DPS to, say, a Champ or Hunter? Because that's the other role we'll get, because it doesn't take a total rework of the class.

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Words can not express how awesome that would be.

I don't know if i like this...i'm happy to see that Graalx2 isnt responsible for the Warden anymore...but i'm not sure that i like the "new" one if i take a look at the Champion-preview...

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Originally Posted by Cecth

I don't know if i like this...i'm happy to see that Graalx2 isnt responsible for the Warden anymore...but i'm not sure that i like the "new" one if i take a look at the Champion-preview...

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As a champion I was extremely impressed with what info was provided. Orion grasp what is was to play a champion and focused on making make positive changes rather than nerf it again. He buffed damage and lowered threat in fervour, made ardour a useful stance, and changed the way it tanks to a method more in line with the champion class than the guardian one.

I think that if we are to look at these changes and the changes that were made to minnis we will probably get a lot of the things we asked for rather than more useless junk (Never Surrender). It was Graalx2 who said "don't die" and gave us NS. Maybe Orion will actually listen to the community and give the class stuff that it needs.

First, a word about the LM: they have in fact two primary roles, CC and debuffing- for a good reason, because many group encounters and even some trash is completely CC immune. Neither burgs nor Hunters can completely replace them (cooldowns or a massive dps reduction). Their second role is power management or burst AOE if they trait for it.

Second, the Warden class is hard to balance without breaking the core elements (ie zero cooldown skills). The class suffers from design flaws that cant be fixed with tweaking some numbers or buffs, and an overhaul of traitlines or skill mechanics apparently wasn't possible for Graalx2 in the timeframe he was given.

We can only hope Orion really takes his time and addresses the fundamental problems instead of altering some numbers. My wishlist would be:
- give Wardens similar aggro management capabilities without giving them the same skills Guardians have
- flesh out their role as evasion tank and give them some room for emergencies
- give them a meaningful secondary role that is not mediocre melee dps (like useful ranged burst dps with added combo mechanics tied to the spear line)
- a viable aggro recovery not linked to death and without crippling penalties (rework NS and DC)
- masteries as trainable regular skills ( from 25-50 every 5 levels)
- overhaul of fist - my proposal was AoE DoTs, or anything worth traiting
- a reduction in our god-like soloing capabilities if needed for balance.

Ttis will be a lot of work, but Wardens deserve to be in the same shape as the other classes - the class exists since Moria, so please finish it with the same amount of thinking and enthusiasm that went into the Minstrel and LM revisions.

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Originally Posted by grinko.at

- flesh out their role as evasion tank and give them some room for emergencies

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According to the Champion update post, Champs are going to be the "true evasion tanks" of the game.

I agree, warden needs it's ability to solo everything in the game drastically lowered so that it can tank slightly better in groups :)

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Originally Posted by Starrywisdom

I agree, warden needs it's ability to solo everything in the game drastically lowered so that it can tank slightly better in groups :)

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Don't get me wrong, I feel like we're excellent tanks already, I just don't feel we bring anything extra to the table in raid settings.

I still don't get this "Wardens are evasion tanks" approach. we're not, we do nothing with avoidances, we are regen tanks, Guards (and possibly Chumps now) are the evasion tank.

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Originally Posted by lf2536

I still don't get this "Wardens are evasion tanks" approach. we're not, we do nothing with avoidances, we are regen tanks, Guards (and possibly Chumps now) are the evasion tank.

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I think it's a reaction to the fact that we wear medium armor. Medium armor = can't take a hit = must just avoid hits!

IMO, more than any other class in the game the warden deserves a real overhaul, every other single class has had a major overhaul except this one. Orion's champ thread really does further salt the warden's wounds. The champs already are an incredibly strong group class, so why this rush to "fix", them when wardens really need soooo much more attention? From both a champ and a warden perspective, I don't much like some of the changes coming to champs. Reading about the champ glory buffs certainly doesn't sound good for wardens, or guards for that matter.

Point blank, the developers of this game have all but ignored this class for far too long. All the devs have given are 2 big nerfs, while all other classes have gotten major buffs. Sometimes I think turbine hates that they ever made this class.

I have to admit i also worry a bit about champs getting any kind of tanking buff. I mean they are already desirable in groups as DPS, and there are a quite a lot of them. As a warden i kind of depend on groups looking for a tank ... If i have to not only compete with guardians but also champs ...

I can easily see a situation where Champs would be considered superior tanks to us even if our total avoidiance+mitigation was a bit higher then theirs, they are just more straightforward and flexible. Not to mention that they are excellent in a offtank role in tandem with a guardian, something where we struggle a wee bit at times.

Lets just say i don't see much room in this game for a thirdclass tank.

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Originally Posted by horus418

Point blank, the developers of this game have all but ignored this class for far too long. All the devs have given are 2 big nerfs, while all other classes have gotten major buffs. Sometimes I think turbine hates that they ever made this class.

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I love the warden class, I do, but I've often felt the same sentiment. With the new champ "tank" modes, we'll be seeing a lot less reasons for people to roll Wardens unless Turbine devs choose to do a few things, such as:

1) Increasing AoE threat and/or damage - if I have to try to pull aggro from another "shing-shing" champ with war-cry, exultation, or conviction, I think I might punch someone. And with the new changes mentioned so far, I just feel like throwing my hands up.
2) A worthwhile force taunt or aggro copy - if LOTRO raids are going to include more of the same stupid aggro swapping mechanics, this has to happen if Wardens are intended to be generally raid-viable. If they're only intended to be raid-viable on a player-by-player basis, then whatevs.
3) More opportunities for increasing or decreasing perceived threat - see above reason.
4) Self-buffs that don't actually lower our effectiveness (like adroit maneuver measurably reduces DPS)
5) A fist line that serves a purpose - currently I would describe the fist line as 'lacking identity'. Is it CC? Is it threat?
6) Less useless skills and gambits - PS, SoV, NS, IF, Shield Up (after SM is earned), all junk. I'm sure I missed some, too.
7) Masteries shouldn't have to be slotted. Seriously. I know this creates work for devs in replacing the deeds for them with new skill deeds, but masteries make this class bearable.
8) A secondary role - let us trait for raid-viable (group) healing, debuffing, crowd-control, or buffing if you won't let us trait for raid-viable DPS.
9) More fun and unique stuff. I love ambushing (though I hate the limitations of careful step), I enjoy the gambit system (when lag or +attack duration debuffs don't screw me up), and morale surfing can be enjoyable for attempting challenging content solo (though I haven't soloed meaningfully in forever). Even forced march has its moments in areas that I've out-leveled or cleared (well, okay, I basically use it to race guards... and hunter buff is better and makes ours non-unique... but it's part of our identity to have horrible drawbacks for anything resembling an existing skill, right?).

These are just options though. I'd like to see a combination of a few of them, not all of them together.

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Originally Posted by horus418

IMO, more than any other class in the game the warden deserves a real overhaul, every other single class has had a major overhaul except this one. Orion's champ thread really does further salt the warden's wounds. The champs already are an incredibly strong group class, so why this rush to "fix", them when wardens really need soooo much more attention? From both a champ and a warden perspective, I don't much like some of the changes coming to champs. Reading about the champ glory buffs certainly doesn't sound good for wardens, or guards for that matter.

Point blank, the developers of this game have all but ignored this class for far too long. All the devs have given are 2 big nerfs, while all other classes have gotten major buffs. Sometimes I think turbine hates that they ever made this class.

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The warden needs some fixes, some help in raid mechanics and the like, yes, but a "real overhaul"? I agree that the champ love of late (and yet more hunter changes) is annoying when we have heard nothing about warden updates and the past few have been insulting to people who play the class. But every other class in this game is "eh" to me besides the warden. I love the survivability in soloing (btw champs have now soloed stoneheight tier 1--does anyone know if wardens have been able to yet?), and I also love the satisfaction of tanking raids that are already difficult but made more so by doing them on a warden. Swaping aggro on durin's bane with another guard is difficult--but fun as a result. Simply force taunt threat matching makes tanking boring to me. This game is already quite easy, and I would hate 1) warden tanking to become as easy as or more easy than guard tanking, and 2) the warden to be given such a major overhaul that the class plays differently post-update I hope the devs build on what is good and keep us best at what we are best at.

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Originally Posted by horus418

IMO, more than any other class in the game the warden deserves a real overhaul, every other single class has had a major overhaul except this one. Orion's champ thread really does further salt the warden's wounds. The champs already are an incredibly strong group class, so why this rush to "fix", them when wardens really need soooo much more attention? From both a champ and a warden perspective, I don't much like some of the changes coming to champs. Reading about the champ glory buffs certainly doesn't sound good for wardens, or guards for that matter.

Point blank, the developers of this game have all but ignored this class for far too long. All the devs have given are 2 big nerfs, while all other classes have gotten major buffs. Sometimes I think turbine hates that they ever made this class.

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As a guard, I do likewise feel very threatened by the proposed adjustment to champs....have my moments getting frustrated here (this forum), listening to endless "give us [this or that] guard tool..," but if you have noticed I always revert to saying we tanks need to join forces and support one another, because it is the champs that REALLY are the enemy to us both.

We need to make noise on this before it is too late, imo.

Here is a post I made in the champ forum on topic, inclusive of a quote I replied to there:

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Originally Posted by Kingtheo

I think you should have kept the shield give us a few new threat increases for single targets only. A couple new skills and traits to mix the entire Glory up a bit. I say single target because we are an off tank, main tank is the guard and wardens job. The area of a high DPS Glory off-tank I think will be OP and cause a few problems. In the end resulting in nerfs such as Fervour has received in the past. A revamp on a character can be a great thing but changing too many things sometimes can also spell disaster.

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I agree with this 100%.

I see the proposed change as ONLY pleasing those with mindsets and who feel strongly already that "champs are more efficient and more optimal"...those who intrinsically will care little for class balance or whether the designated "main tanks" are then left in the dust while champs carry forth as being as good at AoE and single target dps as ever -- PLUS then will also supplant via their secondary tanking role those who are SUPPOSED to be tanking as a primary.

This change will likely also do damage to those who already DO take advantage of what a champ can do with a shield now...approaching warden levels in soloability...likely limiting the avoidance and mitigation builds and soloing survivability for things that can't just be dps'd down. There are things that "even" a guard must be tank traited and max self-healing to kill, that just can't be beaten through and down in OP stance -- and I suspect this analysis would apply to the "new" glory champs.

Either the shieldless glory tank would be "weak" -- and since this proposal seems to cater to "champs are uber" thinking...I doubt this will be intended...or it would have to be envisioned that they will achieve some unwarranted levels of defensive buff, that will consequently jolt them way past the capabilities of guards and wards (who can't dual wield and must use shields to achieve these defensive abilities).

Moreover...if as an alternate to gaining "magical" crit defense and avoidances, etc., from the imagined ethers of traits absent shields, etc., champs could end up with some kind "healing factor" applied...think this was vaguely alluded to as well...this would then be encroaching equally improperly onto warden territory.

The only actually "reasonable" potential for this meandering shieldless glory tank proposition I can see (to other tanking classes) ...would then be very unfair to the current champs who enjoy shields and what already is great champ survivability: would be that a glory champ be greatly improved for holding aggro, but intentionally become significantly LESS defensive than they are at present. Hold before you flame...I will explain:

Have a threat over time reduction to fervour champs...allow them to still dangerously (to themselves) pull aggro initially and with incoming healing yet nerfed for stance (or even more nerfed) potentially kill themselves fast....but as to the ability to continuously "tank" by fervour stance: apply then a ramping up of threat debuff or some such. This would end fervour tanking and encourage (virtually require) the claimed goal of having champs USE glory stance when MEANT to tank. Others have posited this and I think I also may have "read between the lines" into some of what Orion blogged, that he may be considering that fervour aggro would thus be somehow limited or reduced despite be initially "noticed."

In my estimation, to avoid the other prospect of the glory champ becoming "too uber", it would have to intentionally KEEP the lowered crit defense and armor reduction, necessitated and implied in dropping a shield (no magical stance buffing). In addition to gaining some signifcant aggro boosts via new skills or stance passives...glory stance, without the healing nerf of fervour, becomes far more sustainable and more easily healed, thus prefered for tanking 6-mans and as an off tank of adds, etc. (both for aggro and for healing without as much loss of dps). Capable OFF-TANKS, but still requiring more healing even in glory than would wardens and guards, due to the less defenses...this, so that wardens and guards are still preferred for endgame raids until things are on farm, etc.

That, imo, is the very definition and a properly encouraged use of glory stance for what has only ever been a secondary role and NON-MAIN tanking use of champ -- which is what a champ is, was and always should be. Viable...but NOT optimal as a tank.

I fully expect people will NOT accept being less than "optimal," even in a secondary roll...but please advise as to what guards and wardens would then be optimal for...behind champs in dps in our secondary roles...and at serious jeopardy in main tanking unless champ tanks with their greater dps are then made WEAKER defensively, by intention.

Anything OTHER than this -- or preferable to ALL of us imo (guards, wards and current shield-using champs)...just some milder tweaks to the current tanking status quo -- is going to break tanking. Champs are better at single target dps...better at AoE dps...and if still rocking high dps, double wielding and matching crit defense, armor and potentially morale (people asking for 5 per point of vit in this thread, mind you) while in glory...why will anyone play a guard ??? Is this desired by the devs,and not just champ fanboi's,,,really??...w'tf!

I already KNOW this will not be satisfactory to the 'excited' champs already positing requisite major crit defense and armor buffs magically working into the "new" glory stance without shields, but people need to get over the knee-jerk excitement of having more dps and double wielding and/or 2hnding glory with increased dps and potentially defenses, and look at the bigger picture. People need to recognize the huge balancing issues, and how this will be a monumental step backward to a time and place that tanking WAS truly broken...once you push past the simplistic "fun" and surface appeal, and give a broader and more critical analysis.

This is a big mistake Orion...and I urge a correction and "doh" palm to the skull moment to strike you sooner rather than later, before people inexorably get worked up over a BAD prospect, that diverging from it later will be that much more difficult.

Fun thought conceptually...rife with too many potentially game breaking (as far as tanking anyway) and terrible ramifications for implementation.

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Originally Posted by Zaestro

Wall of text.

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There are points in here that I agree with, and some I disagree with. Overall, an important message that is overlooked in this analysis is that Orion is a self-proclaimed "buffer" - he prefers not to nerf. As a result, I want to believe that all classes can expect similar treatment - we may see a new kind of balance afterward, but at least it will be balance. I think we should wait until he has at least posted his ideas for warden/guard changes before sounding a full alert on the champ changes, although I agree that we should all pay close attention.

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Originally Posted by duamarth

The warden needs some fixes, some help in raid mechanics and the like, yes, but a "real overhaul"? I agree that the champ love of late (and yet more hunter changes) is annoying when we have heard nothing about warden updates and the past few have been insulting to people who play the class. But every other class in this game is "eh" to me besides the warden. I love the survivability in soloing (btw champs have now soloed stoneheight tier 1--does anyone know if wardens have been able to yet?), and I also love the satisfaction of tanking raids that are already difficult but made more so by doing them on a warden. Swaping aggro on durin's bane with another guard is difficult--but fun as a result. Simply force taunt threat matching makes tanking boring to me. This game is already quite easy, and I would hate 1) warden tanking to become as easy as or more easy than guard tanking, and 2) the warden to be given such a major overhaul that the class plays differently post-update I hope the devs build on what is good and keep us best at what we are best at.

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Yes, I'd like a "real overhaul", but nowhere do I say I want force taunts or turning wardens in to ezmode. I don't give a hoot about soloing a bunch of fellow and small fellow junk, so I'm actually looking for a big solo nerf, this isn't a solo game. As it stands we have a whole trait line that is pretty near useless and an entire skill set (yellow), that is almost the same, except for 3-4 gambits. Think about how many gambits are actually useful compared to the ones you only use when you make a mistake... it's rather sad. As for swapping aggro with a guard, I don't find anything difficult about it, but we rely on the guard to be able to do it, not cool.

I don't want the class to play completely different either but something needs to be done, we can't have everything locked behind gambits. We need a couple of oh **** skills for raids, as it stands we have 0, spending who knows how many seconds building up HoTs that make little to no difference when a boss is slamming you HARD, doesn't help. The warden is most vulnerable when somebody else makes a mistake and gets killed, all you can do is watch your health drop while the other person gets rez'd and hope you "don't die". Then, if you do die, you pop a skill that cripples you and doesn't work anyway...

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Originally Posted by Zaestro

As a guard, I do likewise feel very threatened by the proposed adjustment to champs....have my moments getting frustrated here (this forum), listening to endless "give us [this or that] guard tool..," but if you have noticed I always revert to saying we tanks need to join forces and support one another, because it is the champs that REALLY are the enemy to us both.

We need to make noise on this before it is too late, imo.

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You say this but yet you state that you got peeved that the warden class was ever created to begin with. Well, we are here and here to stay. We have to face facts, no matter how much you don't like the idea wardens are going to need something similar to "this or that guard tool". What you have to realize is that these tools you speak of just aren't guard tools only, champs have a few OS sills and aggro tools, burgs have touch and go. Why do you feel a guardian deserves pledge for those moments while wardens only get prayers? If the devs gave wardens touch and go, is that OK with you?

People seem to like this Orion guy, so I'll wait and see what is coming our way. The part that I don't understand is that Orion is moving in the complete opposite direction of where this tanking business needs to go. Seriously Orion, you really need to communicate with us wardens, because you seem to actually be going out of your way to make us obsolete. If you've got real plans for us, we need you to toss us even the tiniest of info, we deserve at least that.

As an outsider here is my take on the warden:


1. You are solo-pros. I've watched wardens solo some ridiculous mobs.
2. You are decent off tanks, but so are guardians and champs, both with more DPS.
3. I've watched a warden tank the final boss (Gortheron) in OD t2 CM, but our healers hated how much more damage the warden took than a guardian.
4. Warden's DPS is limited to always having to equip a shield (no 2h = no big DPS)


My suggestions are:

1. Decrease warden's ability to solo everything. Might not be desired by some people
2. Provide wardens with more critical defenses, or a way to slot more mitigations.
3. Develop a true DPS line with big power costs, but more DPS either through +damage or ability to slot a 2-hander, maybe a 2-Hand Warden's Spear. I can just see a gnarly warden with this massive 2-h spear raging around lol.



Seriously the bottom line is this: Wardens are not a highly desired class by end-game raiding kins. There is a problem with the class being able to do EVERYTHING, but having no 100% main role where they outshine everyone else. Yes, wardens are tank-ish types, but guardians are dominant in many cases. Something needs fixed to get wardens back in the fray, whether its DPS, better tankability, or something else.

To those worried or whining about the updates coming for Champions my suggestion would be, don't. Worry about whether you yourself can actually do your job and fulfill your role(s) properly, not whether some other class is being improved. Wardens are already passed over 99% of the time for Guardians, who are also much more numerous, so changing the way Champ tanking works isn't going to have any significant effect. Are you really that concerned with trying to hold onto the few pity spots Wardens currently get? Don't be the guy who just tries to drag everyone else down to his level out of spite.

Instead of focusing on Champ changes and complaining that they're going to take the few little spots you currently have in groups, focus on getting your own class buffed properly so that you'll be more desirable than they are for main tanking and so that you can actually, legitimately compete with Guardians for main tanking and have a viable secondary role to make yourself more wanted in groups. Right now Wardens have serious issues with grouping, maybe some of that is perception but as they say, perception is reality, so let's get both changed so that groups will actually desire to have a Warden, or at least think of Wardens and Guardians as equally viable options.

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Originally Posted by Morcanden

7) Masteries shouldn't have to be slotted. Seriously. I know this creates work for devs in replacing the deeds for them with new skill deeds, but masteries make this class bearable.

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This is an awesome point. I've thought this myself. +Rep

Without masteries, I think it's safe to say that Wardens wouldn't even be able to perform effectively in challenging endgame content. Why do we have to burn class slots for these?

And, in general, there is a total lack of imagination with our class traits anyway. You see constant repeats of things like more HoT pulses, DoT pulses and +Damage in the traits themselves and the line bonuses across the board. While I like the extra +pulse and damage love, how hard was it to think of those things?

Gambit combat is one of the most fantastic and unique things in LOTRO. It's just a very fun game within a game that keeps me playing my Warden. I also love the synergy of range and tanking so there certainly is a lot that was done right with the class. Wardens just need some legit love under the hood.

I love the gambit system, it makes the Warden so unique and fun to play :D

And I agree, if anything needs to be fixed its the damned class traits! I switch between running shield line to capstone, to spear, to a combo of all three (for the +10% threat)....and its amazing how many useless traits we have. And incredibly aggravating that we have to waste 3 on masteries.

One of our traits increases the default gambit damage! Default gambit? Who uses that? Ever? Only time that ever happens is if I make a mistake and accidentally punch the gambit button. lol.

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Originally Posted by LagunaD

Not to be alarmist (yet), but I don't think we need even more competition in our primary (and only) role.


Ah, what the heck. Let's be alarmist:

Guardian tanks (primary role): Ultimate survivability, superior threat skills, average damage

Champ tanks (secondary role): "Viable" survivability, superior threat skills, ultimate damage

Warden tanks (only role): Average survivability, mediocre threat skills, mediocre damage?

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I laughed pretty hard, then realized how true this is. Sure, I love soloing, but can that really be considered a primary role? Fine. I can live with that. I'm the king of soloing.

But what if I want to group? How can a warden be expected to group when every other class has easily defined superior primary AND secondary roles? Sure, I enjoy soloing, and I'd like to keep some of that potential. But not at the cost of being completely useless otherwise... I don't care what our primary role is. If it's tanking, so be it. But if that's the case, it just doesn't make sense that a champion's secondary role can be just as effective as our primary. Never mind the fact that a champ's primary role still allows them to be the god of AoE DPS.

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Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr

As an outsider here is my take on the warden:


1. You are solo-pros. I've watched wardens solo some ridiculous mobs.
2. You are decent off tanks, but so are guardians and champs, both with more DPS.
3. I've watched a warden tank the final boss (Gortheron) in OD t2 CM, but our healers hated how much more damage the warden took than a guardian.
4. Warden's DPS is limited to always having to equip a shield (no 2h = no big DPS)


My suggestions are:

1. Decrease warden's ability to solo everything. Might not be desired by some people
2. Provide wardens with more critical defenses, or a way to slot more mitigations.
3. Develop a true DPS line with big power costs, but more DPS either through +damage or ability to slot a 2-hander, maybe a 2-Hand Warden's Spear. I can just see a gnarly warden with this massive 2-h spear raging around lol.



Seriously the bottom line is this: Wardens are not a highly desired class by end-game raiding kins. There is a problem with the class being able to do EVERYTHING, but having no 100% main role where they outshine everyone else. Yes, wardens are tank-ish types, but guardians are dominant in many cases. Something needs fixed to get wardens back in the fray, whether its DPS, better tankability, or something else.

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Im getting sick of seeing our solo ability mentioned like it somehow outbalances lacking group play, what can i buy myself for this awesome soloability? Can i level faster than others? No. Can i get good gear with it? No. Maybe i can atleast do harder skirmishes to get more marks/h? Not really. What exactly does this awesome soloability give me except for bragging rights and the ability to waste my time? How can something as stupid as that even begin to balance lacking desirability in a group? How about we nerf the debuffs, CC and Power transfers of LMs, because they are awesome solo too(not serious, LM is my second faviorite char, don't touch it). Atleast champions and RKs get tangible benefits in soloplay.

But yeah anyway, i think its a good idea that the same guy that reworks Champs is also doing Wardens and(hopefully) Guardians. Pretty sure he will do some graphs and other stuff and try to keep/make things more or less fair between the three.

Personally i think Wardens should be threat machines but without actually being able to finely control our threat, i.e. no ability to drop threat, no force taunts or anything. Just raw threat that can easily be stacked up with no emergency buttons, slightly lower mitigation/avoidiance than guards against single mobs but pulling ahead in multi mob situation through morale leeches.

Maybe a Gambit that adds some form of mitigation per mob in range or something similar(worse with one mob than guard, equal with too, better with 3, maybe capping at 5), maybe even as a function of the new yellow raiding lines capstone, as a buff to EoB or something.

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Originally Posted by rocketeer8015

Personally i think Wardens should be threat machines but without actually being able to finely control our threat, i.e. no ability to drop threat, no force taunts or anything. Just raw threat that can easily be stacked up with no emergency buttons, ...

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If you aren't doing this already, you should rework your rotation.

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Originally Posted by geoboy

If you aren't doing this already, you should rework your rotation.

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So how long does it take you to get threat back after dieing(and don't say "don't die", its outside my control 90% of the time), or when taking over a target that has been offtanked by someone else for a while? How about taking over a target noone in your group has had much thread on? If you compare our "raw" threat to the function of force taunts guardians have we are pitiful, if you compare our threat leeches to a champs rising ire its laughable even though its single target.

Threat leeches need to have +initial threat and also transfer %threat just like rising ire. We give up so much things like mitigation/emergency skills/force taunts/easy mechanics(press one button done) etc and for what? Being able to deal 20% more threat/s than a guardian when spamming one gambit? Are guardians loosing aggro while tanking without that or what?

Is it to much asked that with all the drawbacks we have we atleast don't have to worry about someone
pulling aggro form us if we try to work our only saving grace, our selfheals, into our rotations? And yes i know there are a certain few situations where a Warden can shine, though its easy to forget that guardian can shine in all those other situations.

I mean if the concept of a tank actually having aggro is so OP that its not meant to be i just don't know what to say...