Why are people so spectacularly bad at playing their classes?

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Originally Posted by Zarador

Because some players spend so much time insuring that they are "doing it right" that they forget to have fun along the way.

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Totally Agree with this.

Don't complain about "bad" players, just teach them about the mechanics and ask them what they can throw in to master the fight. Or find someone who is leading and willing to give hints/good explanations.
This will encourage them to think about their own class/skills and what grouping really means. If you are only asked to do this and that you will loose interest and never become better.

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Originally Posted by Eodeth

Totally Agree with this.

Don't complain about "bad" players, just teach them about the mechanics and ask them what they can throw in to master the fight. Or find someone who is leading and willing to give hints/good explanations.
This will encourage them to think about their own class/skills and what grouping really means. If you are only asked to do this and that you will loose interest and never become better.

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In theory works but in practical terms, when you are running GS with your 4th/5th toon, the fun of it will be gone after a few times. And telling ppl to get out of the fire, cure wounds, suggest to use skill a/b/c and realizing some ppl have no idea what that is (clobber and horn was the last one on a 62 champ who had no idea what skills were those) gets old real fast.

It's a no-winning situation for Turbine. They had to change the required low level group content simply because ppl moved up to lvl cap and groups were/are scarce while leveling up. On the other hand, the lack of grouping while leveling hurts the quality of play of player x.

Perfect makes practice and the majority of ppl who started to play in the past year didn't have the chance to practice enough. And that hurts both the player and the group. I honestly envy ppl who pug, I really do. It's not anyone's fault in particular, it's just the nature of the beast.

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Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

Bottom Line - When I am in a PUG like this. Nobody wants to wait for instructions. They want to do it. The group members can not work together to complete the content. You end up with - shut up Yula. I know how this is going to go. They are all going to die before getting to the first boss. This situation is only going to happen once. After I use Still as Death to survive. I am leaving.

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That's what I've found as well and it's frustrating. Everyone just charges in and goes for it, strategies be damned, and it's not because encounters are too easy. Rather, it's because encounters are too straight forward. Mobs could be arranged so that a party needs to pull certain mobs first, or mez, or stun, or kite, or whatever. Group encounters would be more fun if they encouraged players to use their brains to win, rather than DPS backed by healing.

I don't want to go back to the good ol' days of uber tough mobs because it was just as annoying but for the exact opposite reason . In old school EQ, you couldn't do anything without the holy trinity (I played a Ranger in EQ from release - not a good move if you wanted to make friends). A middle ground would be nice. Encounters that require thought and strategy rather than DPS or the perfect class structure. Pie in the sky stuff, but one can dream...

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Originally Posted by Repriever

This thread is kind of inspired by another thread just below about how hard it is to find healers or why people don't want to play them. If you read through this thread you'll find one complaint after another from healers saying they won't do PUGs because of tanks who can't hold aggro, hunters and champions who can't manage their aggro and all manner of complaints about players how simply can't play their chosen class.

So... why should this be?

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That wasn't the only reason mentioned by healers in the other thread ("Healers -Why so hard to find healer?") about why they don't play in PUGs. Another reason was healers dealing with rude/demanding players.

If someone asks; "Why are people so spectacularly bad at playing their classes?", that is about judging players harshly. And that can be directed to healers. And some players don't want to deal with that kind of pressure.

Many people would like to play LOTRO without being slammed because they are not great. Because not everyone is a video game ace. Many players would rather enjoy the beauty of the game design, the story, and Tolkien's "world" in peace. So, many people play solo.

I don't want to play in a large group thank you. I like being solo and playing in a small fellowship of two.
I am very new to online gaming and really not very good at the moment.
But I was not aware that it was a competition.

Surely we should all be allowed to play how we want? I love the game and love stretching my character's skills.
But I also love running away :)

As for being punished for dying ..
No thanks. I would stop playing I'm afraid. :(

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Originally Posted by Repriever

Things have changed. Everything has changed. MMO's aren't even worthy of the name anymore they are so solo friendly. So, I guess play with your kinmates and you'll be fine but the days of wandering out into the wilderness and finding a killer PUG are absolutely dead and buried it's never going to happen again in this MMO or any other. Casual and solo play is king.

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You answered your own question. I am sure that in the "good old days", players used to say things like "This is great, why doesn't everyone play? They'd really enjoy it.".

Well, be careful what you ask for, because you might get it. MMOs have changed to follow the demographic of the largest available player base, and guess what, it seems to pretty solo/casual-oriented.

The old days have probably gone for good. "Preserve your memories - there're all thats left you".

I'm in the fun playing camp. I think it comes down to how much a person wants to learn their class, not how much other think they should.

I've played many co-op games with a range of friends (unfortunately not MMOs, seems I'm the only person I know nerdy enough for them). Some of these friends great at games (I'm usually the best player though I've been gaming for 25 years), some are like my sister who get by with a little help, she's not a gamer, she just enjoys playing the games and their atmosphere, but having here there definitely adds to the game.

I haven't grouped much beyond a few small fellowships with random people and most of those were as skilled as I am (or were less so).

I know a lot of the basics of my class and I enjoy playing how I want too, but I am fairly sure I'd annoy those who have been playing for years and know all the ins and outs of their class. Then again I am always more interested in my character than my class, and I've never cared too much about having all the best stuff.

I think I'd be happier grouping with similar types, leaving the hardcore stuff to those who know exactly what they are doing.

I agree with the comment about the excessive number of skills. On most of my characters almost all the quickslots are filled with skills, and if you come back to a character after several months it can take a while to remember how anything works.
I solo all the time, and very, very rarely group (mostly because I'm often interrupted in real life and people would quickly get fed up with waiting for me), but I like to think that I know my classes quite well. I learn and use all the skills, apart from ones which are meant for grouping.

I think the Warden is an interesting class. With a warden, you have very few skills to slot, as most of your attacks are built from combinations of the basic three, so there's plenty of room left on your bars. Of course, this means you have learn dozens of sequences, so going back to a 65 warden after some time away can be a pain as you've forgotten everything.

Having loads of skills does, however, make the classes extremely powerful and flexible if you take the time to learn them all.

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Originally Posted by Repriever

I hated WoW by the way but at least it's a 'real' MMO, it's not a single player game. I'll say again I love this game but it doesn't feel like an MMO at all to me. It's a wonderfully crafted game nonetheless. Great scenery, interesting classes, excellent crafting and of course... Tolkien.

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MMO = massively multiplayer online. Players playing same game same time through the internet. I wonder how to you LotrO doesn't feel like a MMO, when it still fills all criteries for a MMO? Does the fact that you are forced group up to go further in the game make a game a MMO?

I personally like how LotrO is built, how you can achieve so much with just casual solo play. You can play the game solo, do the quests solo, but for better gear you have to group up, perhaps find a raiding kinship if you enjoy end-game raiding. That is what MMO is all about: meeting new people, joining the community and getting new friends and playing with them. I'm not sure about all people, but at least I have succeeded in that: getting new friends in-game, doing instances and raids with them and PvP'ng with them. But I see nothing wrong in the fact that if you want to, you can play the game solo as much as you want without interacting particularly much with the others.

Only thing I don't like in this game is the lack of content and some MMO-classic areas like PvP should get some very much needed (and deserved) improvements. But that's completely another topic.

I'm happy to be a member of a quite big kinship in our server, so usually we can get group up for whatever we want to do. I think I'm a "typical PUG-hater": I play healer class and I don't like to play with people who I don't already know. That is when it comes to new instances such as Lost Temple and Sari-Surma. I don't have problems with doing Moria instances, because they are low level and chances for a PUG to fail is radically smaller than with lvl 65 instances. I have even tanked GS with my Minstrel... But yeah, I have had really bad experiences from PUGs doing end-game content and to be honest, there will always be people who just cannot play their class, don't know what to do and no matter how many times you explain them what to do, they still don't learn.

I will openly admit that I have no idea what I'm doing most of the time, I just hammer my fervour gains and interrupts until the enemy is dead if I'm raiding with my kinship, outside of that I don't pay attention to my stats or virtues and go for whatever armour rating/dps rating is highest, BUT I have fun playing and learning what it is I'm useful for, I don't care if I wipe a raid due to inexperience because I am learning what the hell I'm doing as I go

I agree with the sentiment that a PUG is no place to explain to a player their class (beyond "you are off-tank" or "keep that troll mezzed" and such generalities).
But if I am in an instance for the very first time I would appreciate if someone took the minute to point out the specialities - stealthed mobs, massive-damage-puddles or mobs to keep far away from the squishies. I feel that usually helps a lot to keep some unneeded wipes at bay. On the other hand I actively despise people who go from uncommunicative to all ballistic on the seemingly guilty member after one wipe - those are very welcomed to group on my ignore list.

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Originally Posted by Elwene

MMO = massively multiplayer online. Players playing same game same time through the internet. I wonder how to you LotrO doesn't feel like a MMO, when it still fills all criteries for a MMO? Does the fact that you are forced group up to go further in the game make a game a MMO?

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What I don't understand about this, is that I DID solo a lot in EQ/DAoC. Yes, the content was harder, yes it was easier in a group but you did not have to be in a large group to level up. Solo and DuO was very possible. You just didn't expect to be able to do every quest/boss on your own and you had to think.

The reason it does not feel like an MMO is because almost no one groups until end game, there is almost no feeling of community, people all seem to be out for themselves. This entire roll/need/greed system is evidence of this.

/rant off

Simple answer would be that they are not! This answer is just as unspecific as the question though.

It seems that this whole debate is based on not how bad a player may be at x,y or z. Rather, the way a person plays is being questions.

It is easy to say a person that is experienced in grouped and / or end game play that seems demanding and wants everything 'just so' is an elitist so and so. It is equally as easy to blame and flame players who are less experienced or have a more casual, unconnected style of play as being 'bad' when something goes wrong in a group - even when the accused player got little or no help from others in the group!

LOTRO is a Massively Multiplayer Online (MMO) game and, as such, attracts many styles of game play from casual or unconnected to a more formal or rigid style, soloing or grouping, hardened experienced gamers to inexperienced new gamers and every style in between. Players in game are also of varying 'types' in the real world, we have older and younger players, male and female, 'native tongue' and 'foreign' players and players of varying physical ability in example.

As for grouping to do content, there is a lot to be said about being in a kinship to do so but it kind of boils down to being in a group with like minded people and having a support network where you (may) get help that is beneficial to the individual and then the group.

Pick Up Grouping ('PUGing') is possibly the worst way to group for content - especially for experienced players. In a PUG, you are essentially picking up random strangers that you know little or nothing about. It is unfair and unrealistic to expect everyone in a PUG to be an 'uber' game player in the exact same way as you perceive 'uber' or, equally, a novice that needs training or a bad player. If your PUG 'wipes' because (in your opinion) a bad player let you down then maybe you should ask yourself what you could have done to support that player and how bad a player you are for not supporting your group. (You and your used in example and not directed at anyone specifically.)

A pug will almost always and almost certainly consist of players of varying experience, skill and game play styles. If anyone cannot handle that simple fact of PUGing then maybe they should not PUG.

The thing is, not everyone wants to be in a kin thus PUGing can be the only way some can get to do certain content. So there is no simple answer to the OP question in the context of the original post.

Many players will excel solo, many will excel grouped, many just want to have fun and this is where the friction starts as one players idea of fun is not necessarily the same as that of others.

I urge all to go enjoy the game while playing and be accepting of other players but not to simply assume that another player must be 'uber' or not because of their level, class or amount of experience we may perceive they have. After all, assumption is said to be the mother of all mess ups*!

*Yeah - sanitised for the forum and for politeness.

I think the idea is to have fun and not take it too seriously.
Hell life is serious enough - this is supposed to be relaxation :)

More often than not, people who offer 'advice' to players in a group are wrong. This is my experience at least, seeing a group lead flame a player's trait set-up or use of skills only to be embarrassingly show up / proved ignorant. However, it still amazes me the sheer amount of players out there that stuff their LIs full of purely morale enhancing relics and thus nerf the value they bring to a group, i.e. offence and crit rating or block/parry/evade rating.

I don't think it has anything at all to do with MMO's to tell you the truth..........this MMO is just a reflection of life really......only a small amount of people in general when it comes to most anything in life truly excel at what they do.

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Originally Posted by CFury

I am glad there are *bad* players in this game, people who are too old to have good hand-eye coordination or just dont care to be "uber leet" and only want to have some fun. I am sick and tired of "leet kids" willing to walk over anyone to get some pixel loot, the fact that every character in game is controlled by real person with feelings is beyond their comprehension.
I rather play with nice and polite than *good* player.

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I wasn't aware that "good" = uber l33t elitist. Good to know.

Ihave been playing solo since just after beta testing. I am partially paralised and play mostly in bed on my laptop. I don't join groups because of physical limitations, the same reason I don't join kinships. I would hate to let anyone down so i will continue my slow but fun game. But please give it a thought sometime, that not everyone is as young/fit/physically/mentally able as you maybe.
I hope every carries on enjoying the game in their own way. I am on snowbourn and my son and my carer gave me a suitable elvish name for my warden - Naneth Caila, I belive it means mother lieing in bed :). So if you see me on you're travels please feel free to say hello, and forgive me if I amrather slow to answer.

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Originally Posted by Trilwych

Oh, sorry. I kind of glazed over there. :rolleyes: I guess the title wasn't an actual question.

Keep in mind the setting for these complaints is within the PUG. That means.... competent players are already in kinships or kept in a tight circle of friends/allies. Nothing wrong with that.

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I think people are affected by confirmation bias when comparing pickup groups to kinship groups. I'm rarely in pickup groups where all the characters are unaffiliated. As a matter of fact, the opposite is true! Most of the pickup groups have at least a couple of folks from the same kinship. Those kinship characters have as many bad habits as a lot of the others and vice versa, the unaffiliated have good characterics.

Besides confirmation bias, people in kinships tend to overlook bad play because they're "helping to train" those characters. People don't have that sort of patience with non-kinship players. They don't make excuse after excuse for them -- they're young, they're new, they're trying a new character, they haven't played MMORPG (i.e. OFG) before, etc.

P.S. Darn, just read that again and it sounds snarky :) Personally, I like pickup groups. There are habits players have that I don't like, and have nothing to do with playing the class. Stuff like hoptarts and turbo-looters. Personalities rather than skill level.

Interesting thread, this. I have 5 65's and working on a sixth, I will, and do, raid regularily with champ and captain, occasionally with loremaster, even less with hunter (but that is because he has bad gear) and have to be dragged kicking and screaming in on grd. The reason? I know my classes, I know I'm good on chmp/capt and I know I'm not so hot on grd. As tanks and healers are probably more important to a raid's survival than other classes, this is where problems lie. A 65 mini who's WS'd they're way up won't have the muscle memory to heal a group as well as a one who's done all the low level group quests. Same with a guardian who's OP'd everything won't be keeping his or her eye on who's hitting the mini (hopefully no-one).
In my opinion, most of the player base is made up of casual players with a small core of uber raiders on each server. So the game caters to where the money is, obviously. If the OP wants to play with players of his own, or better, skill level, then work within your kin, if you're not in a kin, find one you like, and that likes you, and have a GOOD TIME.

Another alternative would be to start llfing and gllfing advertising your services to anyone who wants to learn instances, that way you get a feeling of satisfaction for helping others (providing they want to learn) and hopefully, others learn more about their class and thus enjoy the game more.

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Originally Posted by Leo_Dan

I wasn't aware that "good" = uber l33t elitist.

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It does not.

Sadly though, some 'good' players (and only some) act in a superior manner that comes across as elitist to others. Even more sad is that because some players act in that way, many 'good' players are unfairly 'tarred with the same brush' so to speak and unfairly seen as elitist.

Again, just as someone may be more casual or less experienced it does not mean they are a 'bad' player and just because someone has a more rigid style of play or is more experienced or determined it does not mean they are a 'good' player. Furthermore, neither case makes a player elitist - elitism is perceived when a player is rude, arrogant or acting superior because he or she has determined (in their own opinion) that they or their group are better than others.

Well it's all circular. Most people are very bad at playing their class in a group setting because they don't group much. They don't group much because they are bad at playing their class. Or they don't group because it's hard to find groups. The reason it's hard to find groups is because not many people group.

It's turbines fault for making the game far too easy when leveling and not giving people a reason to want to group up to get experience at it. People tend to go for the quickest and easiest route. For leveling this is doing everything solo and ignoring all group content.

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Originally Posted by Khafar

Basically, because people are playing in the ways that they find to be fun, not to win the approval of strangers. For many, that means they learn how to solo effectively - but aren't grand at groups. Some hate grinding out Virtues (or ever-better LIs), so they don't. Others don't get into the whole "maximize your spreadsheet" thing, and don't bother chasing optimal stats. They're doing what they enjoy, whether that be questing, crafting, roleplaying, assorted completionist activities, music, chatting with friends, playing the market on the AH, etc. It's their money, and their time -- and it's nobody else's business how they choose to spend it, or what they find to be fun. They don't exist in order to make your groups better.

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Yeah and this is completely fine when you are playing solo. The problem is people seem to forget that when you group you are now playing with real people and whats fun for you may make the experience not fun for other people. Maybe someone finds it fun to just ignore what the rest of your group tells them and just runs around pulling everything. When you join a group you should be willing to do what is best for the group and not simply 'what is fun for them' as for must people 'what is fun' involves successfully clearing the instance.

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Originally Posted by Pivik

The reason it does not feel like an MMO is because almost no one groups until end game, there is almost no feeling of community, people all seem to be out for themselves. This entire roll/need/greed system is evidence of this.

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I agree when leveling but at end game i've found its the opposite. There is a great community when it comes to raiding and pvp(well kind of for pvp :P). Probably because so few people raid or pvp in this game, which means everyone kind of knows everyone. It's completely different to WoW for example, and one of my favorite things about lotro.

I'm guessing this is one of those rhetorical question things.

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Originally Posted by CFury

This.

People are not *bad*, they just dont care to make a job out of the game. They dont want to invest as much time and effort in figuring out some tactics in game they play to relax as they would do for a job assignment.
And in the end, its their right to play exactly how they want.

My Mother cooks perfect dinners but she makes so much fuss and is so stressed over them that none of her guests every feel comfortable least enjoy her meals. My Aunt on the other hand will happily order pizza for everyone and have fun and relaxed evening with friends.
I am glad there are *bad* players in this game, people who are too old to have good hand-eye coordination or just dont care to be "uber leet" and only want to have some fun. I am sick and tired of "leet kids" willing to walk over anyone to get some pixel loot, the fact that every character in game is controlled by real person with feelings is beyond their comprehension.
I rather play with nice and polite than *good* player.

Besides, the content is easy enough that you can beat almost anything with not-so-perfect performance and I did all of it with lots of average players. OP sounds demanding, controlling and selfish to me.

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I understand the sentiment behind what you two are saying but I have to disagree slightly. I 100% agree that while playing solo it doesn't matter what you do, as long as it's fun for you it's fine. Not so much in fellowship content though. I may choose to run around Enedwaith with no pants on shouting 'THE SNOZZBERRIES STOLE MY TONGUE!", that sounds fun. Should I do it in fellowships though? Nope.

I'm not a "leet" player by any means, but I'm respectful enough to the people around me that when I run an instance I pay a bit of attention and follow instruction. As soon as I join a fellowship my actions can negatively or positively effect others so I think people should at least make an attempt at working as a team.

While it's their right to play how they want to, it's also the groups right to drop them from the group itself.

I think the problem why people don't know how to play in groups is, that trubine has changed almost every quest in the game to be able to be done solo, so there is no reason to group up until you hit the level cap. Since MoM came out, i have rarely seen any people looking for groups for landscape questing/small fellowship quests until lvl 50+. Many people just skip those quests entirely. And when I do see those requests in the chat, the only answer is "its' solo-able, so do it solo". A shame, really!