Developer Diary Feedback: Revisiting the Mines of Moria (First Half)

This is wonderful news. I got Thandil through Moria and have been dreading going back through there with the next 2 toons that are scheduled to go there in the next 10+ lvls.

Now I can't wait to get back in there. :D

I didn't have so much of a problem with the mobs/quest difficulty (Guardians having problems questing? What's that?) It was more along the lines of my constant headaches and broken legs from running into walls and falling off cliffs because the lantern on my goat wasn't bright enough.

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Originally Posted by wikjif

I don't think that it is because it is hard for most people but because of how Moria tries to send you everywhere at the same time and they don't want to deal with it so they get in as late as possible and leave as early as possible to spend as little time as possible inside Moria.

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Ah, that makes more sense. :) If they make the changes it sounds like they're going to make, it should definitely solve that problem.

and when we going to see it happen? at the next on the maintenance on monday?

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Originally Posted by x72

and when we going to see it happen? at the next on the maintenance on monday?

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You can either check out Bullroarer now, there is a link in the Bullroarer forum for how to download and install it, or you can wait a couple of weeks for it to be released on a server near you, and no the maintenance on Monday is not an update to the game.

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Originally Posted by dietlbomb

I think the point of the revamp was so that fewer people would hate Moria.

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What they'll likely achieve is that people still hate Moria because it isn't the Shire, and the people that loved it before will hate what they did to it.

There are already the first beta comments of it being not remotely dark enough, which is basically what I suspected.

So they probably just exchange people between the love/hate camps.

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...leveling in Moria is just too challenging, despite the initial awe and the beauty of this space. This is something we’ve wanted to address for a long time on the Content team. Moria stands in the way of a new character reaching our end-game content...

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Funny, I've taken over a half dozen characters through there, mostly solo, and it never seemed like leveling was too challenging.

Many people whine that Moria is dark, confusing, and difficult. Yep. Those things are part of what makes it a truly wonderful implementation of a dangerous subterranean mess. Now we're getting fluorescent lighting, safety rails, and escalators -- it's the all new Mall of Moria! Come see the linear assortment of cookie-cutter generic quest stores, no reading necessary!

Congratulations on taking a great bit of game design and butchering it to appease the lowest common denominator.

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Originally Posted by Thamlorin

What they'll likely achieve is that people still hate Moria because it isn't the Shire, and the people that loved it before will hate what they did to it.

There are already the first beta comments of it being not remotely dark enough, which is basically what I suspected.

So they probably just exchange people between the love/hate camps.

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I won't go to hate camp but should say that i don't like this lightening. THIS IS MORIA!

I'm one of those that never had a problem with the amount of quests available to level, in Moria or anywhere else. I've always found it to be quite the opposite. But most of the changes sound good, it will be interesting to take an alt or two through there again now, at least through those areas, then it will be time to park them again and wait for the 2nd half revamp. One thing I'm not cazy about though is the need to simplify and hold our hand through EVERYTHING. Any quest that had us going more than a stones throw away had to be dumbed down it sounds like, the mirrors and riddles? WHat about the quest to drink in memory of that Dwarf in all the zones? Will all the drinks now be sitting on one table 20 yards from the quest giver?

Never really had problem in Moria except long travel routes.

On topic, if nothing was changed only Moria instances being scalable to 75 that would be 100x better.

A new quest hub pictured is right along a rare elite MOB pathway.

With the removal of MOBs along main travel routes, were rare elites maintained hopefully? Were they relocated? If not, will they be?

If unsuspecting players fell victim while at a new quest hub and complained, it would be horrendous if one of the few challenges in Moria were removed/lost as a result. (An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as the expression goes.)


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"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

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Originally Posted by Fortinobrand

Funny, I've taken over a half dozen characters through there, mostly solo, and it never seemed like leveling was too challenging.

Many people whine that Moria is dark, confusing, and difficult. Yep. Those things are part of what makes it a truly wonderful implementation of a dangerous subterranean mess. Now we're getting fluorescent lighting, safety rails, and escalators -- it's the all new Mall of Moria! Come see the linear assortment of cookie-cutter generic quest stores, no reading necessary!

Congratulations on taking a great bit of game design and butchering it to appease the lowest common denominator.

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Great points here, although some questing revamp would help here and there, i dont think Moria needed much reworking at all.
I hope it doesnt turn Moria into a 2-day adventure, i plan on taking a new toon through when I play again, and i better still be able to quest in there for 2-3 weeks!

LOL @ Mall of Moria

"Moria stands in the way of a new character reaching our end-game content, and we want the 1-75 experience to go smoothly for new people as the game gets bigger."

I am filled with dread when a developer starts talking about their levelling content as if it were an obstacle to the game, rather than part of it. This is the exact same philosophy that led to Blizzard turning the 1-60 game in WoW into an ultra-linear guided tour exercise in hand holding devoid of anything resembling exploration, adventure or challenge.

You've got a cash shop - if people want to get to 75 quicker then SELL them a lvl 50 or 60 or 75 character. Or create an alternate levelling path for those who want to skip the 'difficult' bits. Don't ruin the levelling experience for the rest of us.

I don't want a well-lit, easy to navigate Moria. That seems to defeat the entire point of the place. Even Gandalf lost his way in there at times.

One of the biggest issues I have with MMORPG players is their assertion that if something takes a long time and a lot of grind it=hard and thus also fun. Moria right now is not hard or fun. Riding through tons of easy enemies then grinding tons more easy enemies then riding back then riding somewhere else all to do the same thing is not hard or fun, it's just long and grindy. I had no difficulties in Moria surviving, I just also had no fun running through the same group and getting knocked off my goat for the umpteenth time and I left Moria as quickly as possible once I finished the epic line and got kindred with the Moria reps.

So I for one am happy to see some streamlining. It seems like the quest line will still allow us to see all of Moria and appreciate it's design (which yes is amazing) while maybe taking away some of the annoying and not fun grind. In addition, for me the large amount of quests allows me to pick and choose a different set of quests to do each time I raise an alt. If I don't want to grind one set of monsters this time, I can skip it without feeling like I'm falling behind in xp. A lot of games, you need to do every single monster kill or item collection grind (and again, grind does not=hard or fun the vast majority of time) or you're screwed.

Please set the mirror quests back to repeatable.

Personally I am thrilled that the revamp to Moria is coming. I did not like the way that questing is currently done with huge hubs of quests sending you all over the place and often having quests that range in level ranges. It's also too dark for me, and I'm glad that mobs are being removed from major travel paths as I often would dread having to go from one hub to another knowing that I could not get there safely.

As to the people who state that there are problems that Turbine could better spend their time on all I can say is this: Should the Maitre'D also cook your food? In other words they have people who specialize in their craft, and they all can't be working on the problems that you've brought up. If all the people in the art department worked on server lag we'd probably get brightly painted servers when their expertise could be better spent.

A bit torn on this.

On one hand, I love Moria. More quests means more time spent there. I'm also happy that they're going to make more use of areas that currently see little to no use, areas of which there actually are quite a few.

On the other hand, I love Moria. Though I appreciate some streamlining, as with everything it can be overdone; I do hope Moria still feels dangerous after the revamp. I admit I'm not entirely fond of making the place brighter, as I thought the darkness added a lot to the atmosphere; I find the Foundations of Stone to be one of the more immersive places in the game, and seeing the outlines of some creature moving in the darkness beyond my position can be genuinely spooky.

Either way, I'm excited to get my next character into Moria and experience it anew.

I put several alts through the Moria. I might as well be minority here but I like Moria to be non-friendly, maze-like, dangerous and devoid of safe places and helpful people just like it was in the books. Because this was about the only landscape that gave some sense of exploration, achievement and wonder. I like it that way. 21st Hall actually was a beacon of hope in the darkness.

Now, with all those little camps and lamps and shiny, friendly, safe stuff, it probably be a tourist tour, not an epic(ish) experience worth of something. Yes, new Moria is streamlined, more comfortable probably. Up to the point of Dunland when I actually felt asleep in questing because it was so extremely boring/linear/predictable/safe.

With each passing revamp the landscape/questing loses the sense of epic. I regret to see that Moria is going that route.

Devs could have just added fast route from 21st to Orc-Watch and be done with it. Cleaning odd quest vectors is fine but instead of making quest system less depending on quest-giving npcs (so objectives unfolds as you progress through the quest), you just add more quest npcs.

Oh wow. I mean, like, wow! You cannot even come close to imagining how thrilled I am with these changes. My two main alts (does that even make sense?) were created when I hit Moria and I'm so glad I won't struggle anymore.

My big question is: when the rest of Moria being revamped? :)

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Originally Posted by LeppardUK

[...]when the rest of Moria being revamped? :)

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When they get around to it. I would guess within the next year or so.

Some of this I like some of this I don't.

I have just finished taking a Champ through Moria after having done it on 5 other characters spaced over a fairly wide period of time, and the only things I didn't like is the back and forth quest types, and the fact that the Epic doesn't seem to tie in with progression through the current hubs in any way. Will look forward to the time wasting running round kind of thing being gone next time around for sure, but as to brightening the place up.... why oh why should Moria be bright. Gandalf gets lost here, it's supposed to be dark and confusing. Adding new stable routes and swift travles should have been enough in my opinion, will have to wait and see once it goes live, but I live in fear of it being turned into a fairy wonderland grove as opposed to how it is now.

I usually poke into Moria as far as Dovlen View at 47 in the process of getting my secondary legendary item, but leave it to 50 before I go in to stay due to the level 50 requirements for deeds, so the downward move for these to 47 seems pretty much spot on to me, I usually prefer being slight under level to the mobs as it keeps things a little more interesting. Which leeds me to my next point....

Having gone into moria at 50 on said Champ, he's hit level 60 just today having done the bare minimum of quests in each hub to complete deeds before moving on to the next for Redhorn, Waterworks and Foundation of Stone. Has barely touched Zelem Melek quests, only done 1 quest in Eastern Durins, not completed most slayer deeds, and not done about half of the Epic yet. Haven't raided or skirmished. Really can't understand the need for extra quests, and infact wish that there was a way to turn XP gain off, because with Lorien, Mirkwood and (with the recent changes) Enedwaith now in front of him, all in the 60-65 range, will have to skip huge chunks or hit Dunland way over level. I'm by no means a completionist, but I pity those who are these days as it must be getting to be very dull fighting grey mobs most of the time.

Variety of choice for leveling is all well and good, but with the Epic line taking you through areas you would now otherwise be completly skipping, it actually gets to be annoying doing the Epic line, as it becomes the running around rather than the quests. This is fine if you happen to be playing alt number xx, but for those playing through the game for the first time, and wanting to experience the whole story, it must be somewhat less than immersive to have to leave large chunks of the game unplayed if you want to stay on level with the Epic as you progress. I'm not sure how this could be resolved short of an XP toggle (or heaven forbid, maybe being able to push more xp to your LI's and less to yourself *wish mode on*), but maybe future filler areas for level capped toons should have a seperate line of story to the Epic, so that if / when the cap raises again, they can be skipped on future characters without affecting the Epic line?

Anyway, rambled off topic now, just my 2 cents worth.

Please give me an option to turn the lights down again..

Personally, I dont consider content to be more "epic" just because one has to go back and forth ALL the time, for miniscule tasks. Especially considering the stupid travel connections that pretty much leave the entire "southern" part off the charts. I dont think its a hallmark of quality design when you have to cross back and forth multiple zones just to do and hand in basic quests. When the preferred method of travel is jumping to death from Crossroads and respawning in the Water Works, something is wrong here. Moria is in many ways like Angmar and the end of Volume I; its an endgame region designed to challenge and eat time.

But this is not the reality of the game anymore, the reality now is: it is a mid-level region that few people will stay in for each and every quest on-level. Like Angmar before, Moria is simply a place now that a lot of people will want to pass through until they can visit other places. But unlike Angmar, it is not possible without consequences to skip Moria/Lothlorien entirely or even in sizable chunks, because it is the only on-level place for a big level range, because it is the ONLY way to Lorhlorien and Mirkwood, and because so many things are gated by epic quest completion and Iron Garrison reputation.

The modest makeover reflects this changed nature of the region in terms of game progression. From what I´ve seen on BR, I dont find it too formulaic, just a bit smoother. This is not a new Dunland. Lastly, if we´re honest, the normal progression we have now of... leave everything standing once you hit 45 to start the LI intro, get ancient dwarf damage, go to Sarnur for the goat, dabble a bit in Dolvenview and Silvertine for the first levels until you´re ready to start the 21st Hall instance quest lines... is extremely formulaic as well.

The thing is, you can still CHOOSE to get the full Moria experience if you are inclined to do so. But if your objective is to get out the other side, which is a perfectly fine objective, you can now do this a bit faster, easier and arguably more enjoyable.

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New quests will guide you to places like the Vault of Durin or to Shemeldurj, instead of you missing them entirely because you didn’t happen to stumble across them.

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Sigh.

Heaven forbid people have to actually go exploring to finish their explorer deeds. Let's just have a bunch of quests send you right to each place.

What Vandervahn said. ^^^^

Plus, as much as I would've liked to see a Trollshaws revamp before a Moria revamp, Turbine made the correct choice for the long-term health of their game. If the Moria revamp really does help retain players, I'm glad for it.

(Note: This doesn't mean I'd support ANY change that's pitched as helping to attract or retain players!)

I'm so happy to see Moria getting some much-needed attention. I started playing a few months before the Moria expansion, and it holds a special place in my heart. Many friendships were formed in those dark halls as we ventured into the unknown together.

However, questing through Moria has always been a challenge. I've brought 5 characters all the way through it, and two others are still stuck there. Getting from place to place has always been horrible. I still can't navigate straight to Orc-Watch or Anazarmekham from DV or the 21st hall. I always get to them from the Waterworks or FoS to get the travel points the first time. So, I'm very happy to see more goat routes and clearly marked paths to get from place to place. I hope they also add more travel routes between Moria and the outside world. Before Lothlorien was added, the only way to get out of Moria was to physically walk out the door!

I'm also very happy to see more quest hubs added and the quests streamlined. It's definitely a drag to fight your way to a quest location, fight your way through the quest mobs, and fight your way back to the quest hub just to find out you have to go there again for something you easily could have done the first time around. I'm hoping that they've thinned out the mobs standing around in hallways for no reason other than get in your way when you are trying to do other things. I'm fine with fighting through a camp for an objective, but the extra trash mobs wandering around are just annoying. Everyone just runs through them anyway.

Finally, I'm glad that they aren't doing anything to really change the actual space. It is an absolutely awe-inspiring place. I don't mind that it's a huge maze or that it is dark. It makes it what it is. I love all the little nooks and crannies and the stories that are told about each one of them. You really get to understand the dwarves and their amazing underground civilization. You feel their pride in what they once accomplished, and also their pain in having lost it. I'm looking forward to exploring the new-and-improved Moria (or at least the first half of it).