Transcript: LOTRO Developer Twitter Chat - Thursday February 21,2013

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Originally Posted by Trilwych

Though Jared didn't say they're headed towards talent trees, that's the worry given that Mounted Combat has trees. And so...

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I was specifically responding to this comment:

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Originally Posted by Sapience

BQ10 Delaney - In the class revamps, will underused class trait lines be re-evaluted to encourage their use again, such as the burg MM line?
BA10 Not so much lines as trees, but yeah, that is central to the changes coming.
While we will never get to the point that every build will be equally popular we do think that we can make your character build full of rewarding choices. - HoarseDev

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Which is a real shame. I played SWTOR for a couple months and I never liked the talent trees. I really hope they aren't planning on implementing a system like this for LOTRO.

I don't have much positive to say about the mounted combat trait trees either. You need to spend a whole ton of points in traits you don't want in order to make your mount turn at an acceptable rate or to regenerate power enough to last more than 30 seconds in combat.

If they do want to replace the class trait system with these trait trees, it does lend credence to this crazy theory.

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Originally Posted by Trilwych

Or better yet. Skip class revamps AND REVAMP THE LEGENDARY ITEM SYSTEM PROPERLY.

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Yes. LIs are way to complicated already. We have to deal with 3rd age/2nd age/1st age, weapons and class items, multiple items for each build, gambling for major legacies, grinding for relics, grinding crafting for crafted relics, grinding instances to earn empowerment scrolls and star-lit crystals. Enough already!

Simplify the game's systems. Don't add some pointlessly complex talent tree system. Traits are easy. Just let us save our setups already and then fix the freakin LIs.

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Originally Posted by dietlbomb

I was specifically responding to this comment:



Which is a real shame. I played SWTOR for a couple months and I never liked the talent trees. I really hope they aren't planning on implementing a system like this for LOTRO.

I don't have much positive to say about the mounted combat trait trees either. You need to spend a whole ton of points in traits you don't want in order to make your mount turn at an acceptable rate or to regenerate power enough to last more than 30 seconds in combat.

If they do want to replace the class trait system with these trait trees, it does lend credence to this crazy theory.

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Oh shoot, my post was saved in Notepad and I didn't post until now (added quotes afterwards but thought the OP was unchanged)--after it looks like Sapience added more to the transcript so I had only read the first part or something. :p

Trees are so mind-numbingly boring and simplified for the reasons I stated, but it looks like my time with LotRO is limited when they finally do fall into that trap. Time for another MMO, yeah.

____________________
Crit crafting & the RNG | Dumb noob things we've done in LotRO...
"Be not so eager to advance that you fail to experience the moment, in life and in all things." -Deluros, Rivendell
legendary: adj.
1. Gilded (having a pleasing or showy appearance that conceals something of little worth)
2. Having an appearance of grandeur that obfuscates by complexity and arbitrariness
3. Disposable

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Originally Posted by Trilwych

Trees are so mind-numbingly boring and simplified for the reasons I stated, but it looks like my time with LotRO is limited when they finally do fall into that trap. Time for another MMO, yeah.

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Yes. This change is almost too depressing to contemplate. I tried other games, and I didn't like them that much. Why make LOTRO more like them?

Edit: Having slept on it, I think this post was a little too histrionic. But I still don't like trait trees very much.

So, they answered a lot of questions, none of which were fluff. Kudos, that is great. Unfortunately only one of them was about LIs and that was just about adding new legacies. I really didn't expect them to answer my question. I do eagerly anticipate the redesign of housing and kinships as it is needed. However, LIs need to be looked at again. The system is a mess and their disposable nature runs against the very essence of their literary counterparts. I will continue to beat this dead horse for as long as I continue to play this game. I'll give credit where it is due, Turbine has built a beautiful version of Middle-earth and added some wonderful storytelling of their own but the itemization, especially LIs, sucks.

Also, I like remote looting. I'm glad it is staying.

Our class traits are already a tree it just doesn't visually represent one with the line bonuses it's kind of like a log.
I'm bummed that once again my question didn't make the cut.
Some interesting stuff there and a good deal of "thinking".

I also against trait trees. Trait sets are the unique feature of Lotro RPG system. And it's more flexible than tree.

Is it me or are they crazy for considering hytbold a success. Sorry but that stupid town was the most boring waste of end game iv ever done.

My thoughts on the dev chat:

Housing

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Q46 @pebelas Another housing-question: will empty houses from inactive players be available to rent again? #LOTRO
A46 HoarseDev We're working out a reasonable foreclosure solution.
A46a to free up those long empty houses. #LOTRO

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Good.

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BQ9 Brya - Can you share any ideas you're considering for the housing revamp? Will we be able to get more storage?
BA9 Just ideas for this month but… more/better storage, better item placement rules, ways to display armor/weapons.
We’re evaluating our options and will keep you posted. - HorseDev

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Frankly any changes to housing would be good, at the moment it's just extra vault space.
I'm not massively into housing but I know a LOT of players are, seems like a potential gold-mine for the developers if they can make it more attractive.

PvMP questions

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Q2 Milithion - Any plans to extend the area of the Ettenmoors? #LOTRO
A2 Jinjaah - None at the moment. #LOTRO

Q17 Atriohm - Any thoughts on a new pvmp map? #LOTRO
A17 Jinjaah - Not at this time. #LOTRO

Q25 AlmericITA - New PvMP Zone in sight, even far away? #LOTRO
A25 Jinjaah - Not in sight. #LOTRO

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Why the same question THREE times? I know a lot of player enjoy PvMP (myself included) but this is primarily a solo-friendly / PvE game and PvMP is a minority activity - give it a rest.

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BQ2 Nubcat - A few creep players (especially us girls) were saying how cool it would be to play a female creep (Angmarim, perhaps). What is the chances of that, or any new creep class, being introduced to the game?
BA2 Jinjaah - I think having a new creep class be female is a great idea.

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Been suggested a couple of times in the forums, nice to see the devs considering the idea.

General stuff

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Q27 YageerSilverscale - Will we ever see any MC instance / part of instance ? #LOTRO
A27 JWB - It's on the to-do list at some point, no current eta. #LOTRO

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Shame I was hoping some sort of MC instance was in the works.

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Q31 Kajil -Is the hunter class ever going to see something along the lines of a strong, instant self-heal/HOT or instant B/P/E buff? #LOTRO
A31 Jared – It’s not out of the realm of possibility, but I’d prefer something other than a heal for survivability. #LOTRO

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And I wanna threat shout, and stealth, and a mez, and a pony, and an eagle to fly and ... w t f

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Q33 @Miesse can we please please have a trait panel setup that lets us save trait loadouts and name them like for MC? #LOTRO
A33 Hoarsedev - Yes.

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Thank the Valar! At last.

Burg stuff

With a burg as my main I'm interested in how the devs see the class evolving:

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Q13 YageerSilverscale - While developing Draigoch's lair the dev team mentioned a CJ revamp. Do you still have plans on that? #LOTRO
A13 JWB - Yes. Once the dust has settled from the class updates and we're prepping content these will have more relevance in I'm hoping to get this done. #LOTRO

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Hallelujah! CJs are more of an irritant now in group play, one of the burgs signature skills is sorely in need of some scaling love.

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Q18 reDot - Who is burg dev? #LOTRO
A18 Jared – I’ll be taking on the role of Burglar Dev. #LOTRO

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Hallelujah again! We have a developer.

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BQ10 Delaney - In the class revamps, will underused class trait lines be re-evaluted to encourage their use again, such as the burg MM line?
BA10 Not so much lines as trees, but yeah, that is central to the changes coming.
While we will never get to the point that every build will be equally popular we do think that we can make your character build full of rewarding choices. - HoarseDev

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OK so not directly burg related in that the answer applies to all classes, but good to hear that the devs are aiming to make all trait lines viable.
As the person asking the question points out, burg MM line is very under-powered and therefore very underused which is sad.

- stride

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Q34 @DaniAngione Why not make currency (money) shared like marks and such? Kind of annoying to mail money to yourself #LOTRO
A34 JWB - We see as many requests not to do this as we do to do it.

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I cant think of any reason for a person to be against this. Anyone able to enlighten me to the what they may be.

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Originally Posted by Blister_Burster

I cant think of any reason for a person to be against this. Anyone able to enlighten me to the what they may be.

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Roleplayers may want to do individual bookkeeping for different characters. (Note: I don't belong to that group)

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Originally Posted by Sapience

BQ6 Waylen -Threat generation by tanks appears to not scale proportionally to dps. Will you be addressing this issue at some point? Also Threat itself is very murky do you have any plans for making it a bit more transparent?
BA6 Jared – Yes. Threat has been the topic of many design discussions recently and we agree that the system is not particularly user friendly and it’s something we want to address.

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Ahum, what does this mean exactly? "Transparent" and "user friendly"? I really, really don't want threat meters...

Houseing revmap, helms deep and playerscounil, sounds like you are getting serious with those. Cool!
But the best question...

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Originally Posted by Sapience

Q4 Peter_Pan – Do you have any plans to implement a system that allows master looter to be used in combination with remote looting? #LOTRO
A4 JWB - No plans as of now. We're pretty happy overall with how remote looting is working in instances. #LOTRO

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… with a very disappointing answer. I mean you see that every week threads are popping up requesting some sort of master loot. So obviously a big part of the community disagrees (especially regular raid groups). We worked out several solutions for this without the need to remove playerbased loot or remote looting. So why? What is the reason?

Thanks Taldeen

Maybe its because english is not my first language but all i heard is....blah blah blah...housing revamp...blah ...helms deep...blah blah...

All the other topics starts with a we think,we might ,we want :)

So on those 2 housing Revamp looking forward many great ideas might play here. I am very much looking for in a day that i will come out of my house and down the street their might be a tavern with people(fellow players) gossiping.And also looking forward to a house that i could put all those nice decos i am finding and dont know where to put them. An upgrade on the scenery wouldnt be bad either...

As for Helms Deep i must say that there is no other region who i would like to see more than this place. PLease whatever you do do it epic.gigantic and as much as middle earth possible!!

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Originally Posted by Blister_Burster

I cant think of any reason for a person to be against this. Anyone able to enlighten me to the what they may be.

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I think people are worried about compatibility with
a) gold caps (both the F2P limit of 2 gold and the normal upper limit of 9999 gold), and
b) server transfers.

There are also the role play reasons mentioned and people also probably have other reasons.

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Originally Posted by Jarvisdoom

I personally really like the idea of a new trait "Tree" system, versus the current trait system. WoW had a "Tree" type system that worked for years. They recently changed it to that of a line and it has received a lot of negative feedback. Tree's allow for a much larger amount of benefits per trait type. For example, one could use 2 yellow and 5 red as a champion. This really doesn't leave many options for traits. Whereas a tree, you may be given 50 points, and you can get 50 smaller benefits. Or you could go 25 yellow, 25 red. etc. A tree allows for a much larger span of options to customize your character.

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If you *really* love diverse talent trees, go play Rift, with their soul system. Please don't make LOTRO a copy of WoW's old talents. I like playing something different than what I've played the last ten years.

Also, on calling Hytbold a success, or saying that people played X way...they have the logs. They know how many did X or Y or Z, and for how many hours. Players on the forums don't have any data except for themselves, their friends, and what they've inferred about other players they see. Nothing more. Don't make pronouncements of fact from what is really only your own opinion made from fragmentary data.

I'm not opposed to the idea of more "Hytbolds" as long as they aren't the only option like Hytbold was for the first couple of months.
Hytbold dailies are very repetitive and there's a lack of variety with the quests.
The reality of Hytbold at least for me turned out to be dissapointingly average compared to how it was hyped.
Combining something like Hytbold with Warbands would be a good way to implement a future Hytbold.

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Originally Posted by StrideColossus

Why the same question THREE times? I know a lot of player enjoy PvMP (myself included) but this is primarily a solo-friendly / PvE game and PvMP is a minority activity - give it a rest.

Hallelujah again! We have a developer.

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Two points. Technically it was two questions. Asking if the Ettenmoors would be expanded and if we were adding a new PVMP map. Yes we answered the second one twice. Thus, there should be claims that we were ambiguous or vague in our answers.

Also, this is probably a good time to remind everyone that the idea of a "class dev" that works solely on one class to the exclusion of everything else was discarded long, long ago. Kelsan has a number of responsibilities, not just Burgs. As do all members of the team.

Oh and for those wanting female creep classes, just a little trivia. All Weavers and Wargs are female. And no I'm not kidding or making it up.

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Originally Posted by Loreineth

Also, on calling Hytbold a success, or saying that people played X way...they have the logs. They know how many did X or Y or Z, and for how many hours. Players on the forums don't have any data except for themselves, their friends, and what they've inferred about other players they see. Nothing more. Don't make pronouncements of fact from what is really only your own opinion made from fragmentary data.

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Nobody said that people didn't play Hytbold quests. But just because people spent a lot of time in Hytbold instances doesn't mean they liked doing it, it was simply the only option for decent 85 armor. Unfortunately player satisfaction is very hard to measure.

So Hytbold may have been a "success" in terms of played hours, doesn't automatically mean that people want more of it. It wasn't really all that different from the good old dailies in Lothlorien, Mirkwood or Enedwaith, and the public instance part combined with remote looting in review was probably the biggest mistake made in RoR (good intention, bad implementation).

BQ3 Bastiat1 - Can you please explain the design decision to have the single best in slot item in the game (Horse-lords bracelets) drop primarily from over-land level 85 trash mobs? What objective were the designers trying to achieve?
BA3 JWB - There are a lot of equipment slots and upgrades available in game. The best thing for absolutely every slot shouldn't be relegated to only 1 type of content.[/quote]


Any chance of getting a bit more explanation of this point? Are you claiming that gold items will NOT be the best in slot items, or that they WILL be available through means other than very low chance random drops?

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Originally Posted by Beltharas

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BQ3 Bastiat1 - Can you please explain the design decision to have the single best in slot item in the game (Horse-lords bracelets) drop primarily from over-land level 85 trash mobs? What objective were the designers trying to achieve?
BA3 JWB - There are a lot of equipment slots and upgrades available in game. The best thing for absolutely every slot shouldn't be relegated to only 1 type of content.

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Any chance of getting a bit more explanation of this point? Are you claiming that gold items will NOT be the best in slot items, or that they WILL be available through means other than very low chance random drops?

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I read it as "Not everything BiS will require raiding."

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Originally Posted by Grimdi

Nobody said that people didn't play Hytbold quests. But just because people spent a lot of time in Hytbold instances doesn't mean they liked doing it, it was simply the only option for decent 85 armor. Unfortunately player satisfaction is very hard to measure.

So Hytbold may have been a "success" in terms of played hours, doesn't automatically mean that people want more of it. It wasn't really all that different from the good old dailies in Lothlorien, Mirkwood or Enedwaith, and the public instance part combined with remote looting in review was probably the biggest mistake made in RoR (good intention, bad implementation).

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I think they are relying completely on metrics, wich is perfectly ok, unless you create a situation in which players must spend x amount of time in Hytbolt to progress or stop playing. The numbers will be skewed, as its an artificial statistic and you have no baseline due to it being the only content available at the time. All that really tells you is it wasnt bad enough to make x number of people stop playing, it gives no data on wether they enjoyed it. If they want to use metrics to determine the "enjoyment" "success" of something like Hytbolt I would advise also averaging it in with how many ground out Hytbolt on alts.

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Originally Posted by Trilwych

Anyway. First, what makes LotRO unique and great--among a number of things, of course (though this feels lessened with each update, sometimes), this includes the free-form class and virtue trait system. Specifically for class traits, chosen traits confer set bonuses unto a capstone at the player's own choice. So long as your class traits are unlocked, you can pick ANY of the traits you wish in ANY of the three lines (which are not linear at all) for specific set bonuses and an optional capstone, and legendary traits.

There is LESS player choice and customization in railroaded tree systems compared to the current LotRO system. It doesn't matter if you have 50 points especially if you only have enough points to go down a specific tree--you're forced to start at the bottom and are locked in.
[...]

Another reason why you have LESS player choice with tree systems is that trees are hierarchical by "value"--and the only people who determine each talent value are the devs, not the players. This is certainly more "intuitive" in the sense that it makes decision-making much simpler for players.


Changing the current free-form trait system into talent trees would be simplification for both players and for the devs. The devs get to choose their trait priorities over player preference and players in turn would be forced to just go down a mindless railroaded color.

[...]

Personally, I'd rather the devs keep the free-form trait system and add a slot and empower the class trait set bonuses and capstones even more--make the higher set bonuses particularly interesting, and that would certainly offer more difficult choices, but still keep the diverse lesser set bonuses.

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First great post and plus rep if i could ("You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Trilwych again.") and exactly my worries as well.

I really do not like the MC trees much as they are too much railroad like and pretty useless once you max the steed.

What could work if they really want to go to a tree system is a hybrid system where in certain slots in the tree the player can choose which trait to actually put there.
Like this we could still keep our old traits to at least some extent while getting more micro bonuses like we see in the MC trees.

Whether this will work better overall is a whole different story though especially when it comes to balancing this.

I really like the trait system in LOTRO but i understand that the devs would like to go to some more micro management of class enhanhcements besides the rather small number of traits with fixed bonuses.
I e.g. liked the ruby system of Allods combined with a somewhat open tree for skills.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

Two points. Technically it was two questions. Asking if the Ettenmoors would be expanded and if we were adding a new PVMP map. Yes we answered the second one twice. Thus, there should be claims that we were ambiguous or vague in our answers.

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It is also worth pointing out that since PvP devs were present people were taking the opportunity to ask PvP related questions. Mind you I think it underscores the depth of feeling that many players have regarding a new PvP zone that the question was asked more than once (and keeps being asked).

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Oh and for those wanting female creep classes, just a little trivia. All Weavers and Wargs are female. And no I'm not kidding or making it up.

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&&&?! Hahaha. Seriously? Hahaha. Er ... hahaha ... ok. Uhm ... seriously? I'm still playing my warg as a bloke! :p

EDIT: Wait a minute! I have just checked and on my warg I have the following title "Grimmclaw, Son of Grimmjaw". I'm a boy! I'm a real boy!

Answer #23 really disappoints me. Flexibility is a great thing. Being able to spec for, build for, and perform different roles on the same character (though not at the same time!) is such a good thing about this game. If classes start losing off-roles (reduce hybrid-homogenization) in favor of reworked main-roles, woe! Loremasters are very defensive in their main-role, but for easy stuff (read: every 3man, near every 6man) people tend to eschew survivability for more damage and therefore faster dungeon runs. Thats why some people prefer getting champs to Fervor tank content, why people grab captain healers over the others. If an LM can't trait red and swing their role to hybrid dps-debuff, [sarcasm]then who needs em eh?[/sarcasm]

And where will this re-focus leave Runekeepers, who have two main roles? What will happen to Wardens and Guards, who can currently compete well enough with traditional DPS classes if they're properly geared and played? How about Captains, who are smack-dab-in-the-middle of various roles whilst always buffing?

This combined with the dolled-up dumb-down that I'm afraid the class revamp will be just has me worried. Hopefully that's performed with a scalpel and not a chainsaw, because having a rich, complex palette of skills to use is fun and engaging.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

Oh and for those wanting female creep classes, just a little trivia. All Weavers and Wargs are female. And no I'm not kidding or making it up.

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There must be a Queen warg out there pooping out hundreds of wargs. Every time I kill one, 4 more come to take their place.

I guess that would make Pureblood the father of them all. :cool: