Getting the Community back to where it needs to be

What I see from being here daily for past 3-4 years:

1. Forum activity has decreased a lot. It flares up, like right now with the recent loot nerfs, but last 6 months has been very light compared to past years. General Forums does not get much activity now compared to other times. But the game population is down a lot - so it makes sense.

2. A handful of the same posters over and over again post and tend to dominate threads, by either derailing the thread by posting a contrary, thoughtless point of view and then arguing with everyone in the thread, or having a strong opinion (like being against any PvP improvements) and very strongly arguing against anyone who disagrees (thereby dominating the thread).

3. I feel right now there is really a lack of diversity of views in most threads - due to one or two dozen posters dominating the threads. I do see all the people who post occasionally and am really happy when I can read what they think. Probably just me, but I am less interested in reading the same poster say the same thing over and over (haha which I am very guilty of!).

4. I feel like SO many players who were really into the game have left - usually in disappointment or dismay - and so a lot of their enthusiasm and intelligent contributions are gone from the forums. Honestly, I feel like the forums are a shadow of their past selves - except for the great times when people who rarely post do in fact post.

5. There are tons of people who post with positive arguments/pro-Turbine views. They can dominate threads when people have complaints, and even troll the posters. This thread disgusts me (I agree with the OP and feel the responses had no compassion for the OP). Maybe the OP would not win a debate, and did not write too politely, but he is clearly young and IMO had some legitimate points (whether or not you agree with them, and he still deserves respect). People could have been nicer to the OP, IMO.

6. I think there is also a lot of cynical people and a lot of mistrust of Turbine and the forum moderators. Not everyone, but I think there are a lot of people reading the forums (and people who post a lot) who feel unhappy with the game and don't trust Turbine to do things well or the best for the players.

tl;dr
I think the forums have changed a lot. Lots of long time dedicated players/posters are gone; lots of new people here; not much life on the forums now except when Turbine does something major people want to comment on.

The game still has a great community - even on the forums.

Just to preface this... I'm a transplant here from CITY OF HEROES, where I'd been for over five years. The difference between the two communities is, well... significant, to say the least. (And while I never thought I'd be saying this, it seems there IS a more obnoxious forum software than what we used to have over in COH.)

Much moreso here than there is the wide disparity of opinion over the devs (read: Turbine). Over there, I'd say it was 75% support and appreciation, 20% complaints, 5% apathy. Here, it's more like 30% support, 50% complaints, 20% apathy. (Which is kinda sad, really.)

Twenty threads on the first page all about the same thing - it's like no one checks the forums before creating a thread.

I think the last time I was on a forum in the straits that this one is, was back when I-13 was going live (the big PvP changes and a rather infamous comment from one of the community moderators that led to a backlash the likes of which I hope I never see again). It was almost impossible to find a constructive thread during those days.

I try to be of good cheer on here - answer questions where I can (for what little I know, only been here since Sept of 2012, really), post the occasional bit of humour, started the LotRO forum drinking game, that sort of thing. But I'd like to think that maybe, when the forums get the overhaul they so desperately need, maybe they'll get the emotional overhaul they need as well. We can only hope.

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Originally Posted by Minquinn

As someone who has played 4 MMO's in my experience the community is what attracts new players to the game. After I quit WOW I wanted to play a game that had a great community so I could easily integrate myself into the game and learned everything I had to know to make my experience enjoyable.

When I first started looking for new games I did extensive research before picking a game. This included youtube videos, wiki's and asking around with friends to see what was a really great game. Something I also did was hit up the forums before playing said game. The general forum. After checking out some f2p games at the time I chose to play DDO. I was familiar with the DND universe (something we played as teenagers) and I wanted to come home. Even though the forum community was great the in game community was not there.

That's when I decided to play this game. Before I did I saw a great video about the difference between WOW and LOTRO that helped me make my decision. My next step was to check out the general discussion forum. This was back in the days when the Moria xpac was out going into the MW xpac. Way back then the forum community was exactly what I was looking for. The posts were basically players helping other players. Good feedback about the game and some valid complaints as well.

I'm not sure what exactly happened because mainly I used the forum to fix the game, figure out a quest, find a kin or just ask questions. Sometimes I offered some suggestions about the content. So, over the last couple weeks that I have been revisiting the general discussion forum I've seen some disturbing behavior. I've gotta tell ya if I was choosing a new MMO and using the general forum as a basis for my decision I would have avoided this game like the plague.

I know we are in a new error of the internet where some believe flaming or trolling is acceptable and makes you look cool. But I think that we all including myself need to think about what we are typing. Do we want to grow this game? Do we want it to end up like WOW, where every single thread gets trolled or flamed. I don't think we do. If anything bringing new players to the game actually helps the community. It starts right here with us the players.

The attitudes from some of the posters/thread starters is showing us in a bad light.

So folks from one Hobbit to men elf and dwarf alike please can we start using just a little personal responsibility on this forum? Seriously lets bring the community back to where it was when I started playing. The devs make the game but a lot of times we are the ones keep players and getting new ones.

I'd like to hear some responses how the community was when you got here and if you think it has changed as I do.

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The community is what the game has made it. Honestly, i dont want turbine making money off of this game, so i dont want people coming in. It is not the game it once was which is why so many people are upset, and why the forum behavior is declining. Before i call for a change in forum behavior, or start complimenting turbine is when i actually see something that deserves a compliment. Once /if this game ever gets back some of its former glory then i will gladly start trying to help rather than argue.

"Twenty threads on the first page all about the same thing - it's like no one checks the forums before creating a thread".

Saw this and had to comment. I feel the reason here is, someone starts a thread on their pet topic, it does not get the traction or attention they want or it goes in a direction other than they would prefers, so...

Take a different tack in a new thread, rehashing the same stuff, only to see a similar pattern of indifference, and possibly antagonism now...

Rinse repeat....

The main problem is the devlopers.

They want us to pay in advance for some promises that they even can't hold.

They whant us to pay as much as we paid for MoM for the new expansion-packs. But we don't get even near the same amount of content on day 1.

The devlopers are lazy, the quality of this game have went down alot. The client is &&&&ty as heck.

They make som crazy changes. Of course I am upset!? And what bother me most is the people that accept everything turbines do. The really got no sense for quality. They'r happy with everything, even if it's as bad as it would be something on alpha-stage.

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Originally Posted by TexN

The main problem is the developers.

They want us to pay in advance for some promises that they even can't hold.

They whant us to pay as much as we paid for MoM for the new expansion-packs. But we don't get even near the same amount of content on day 1.

The devlopers are lazy, the quality of this game have went down alot. The client is &&&&ty as heck.

They make som crazy changes. Of course I am upset!? And what bother me most is the people that accept everything turbines do. The really got no sense for quality. They'r happy with everything, even if it's as bad as it would be something on alpha-stage.

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This has moved from happenstance to trend, and people are upset. This mentality that it is ok to sell us unfinished content and then string us along, telling us the unreleased content that was promised intially is being fine tuned is such an underhanded business model. Especially when the reality is that the content was no where close to ready in the first place, and after an excessive waiting period it still has plenty of bugs when it released.

Turbine needs to add some more/better employees so that this kind of drawn out expansion doesnt happen again, and regain some measure of professionalism.

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Originally Posted by Valkrist

This is definitely true for me, and for how many more I cannot count. Sadly, the platform used to help build and maintain our community has become more of an impediment than an implement in that regard.

And it looks like the blogging feature is going to be done away with entirely: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ging-Community

Whart, I am sure you have your journal saved somewhere besides here, but if not, please do so. Your writing is far too precious to lose.

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Ugh, I wondered when they would finally decide to completely offload the creative community--they simply don't get that the bloggers draw positive attention to the site and the game. And thanks for your kind words. I saved and actually started dismantling my page once I realized that they had broken many of the editing features. All I really do now is a little forum posting, and even that interest is waning. Time to take my writing adventures in a completely different direction and to a completely different venue, methinks.

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Originally Posted by Whart

Ugh, I wondered when they would finally decide to completely offload the creative community--they simply don't get that the bloggers draw positive attention to the site and the game. And thanks for your kind words. I saved and actually started dismantling my page once I realized that they had broken many of the editing features. All I really do now is a little forum posting, and even that interest is waning. Time to take my writing adventures in a completely different direction and to a completely different venue, methinks.

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If I can save blogging features I will (though they may not be part of the initial relaunch of the site even if I do manage to pull that off). Though any blogs in the future would probably end up being the Vbulletin built in blogs and not wordpress as they are now. I've gone round and round with this with the web team and I can honestly say that having seen the issues with integrating WP with the sites and the major issues it creates on the backend (including issues with the WP software itself), I can understand why it's not on the web team's list of favorite things.

I've also made it clear that based on feedback I would happily take a nuclear option of blowing everything away and having just basic forum functionality if it meant we can have a faster system and reliable ability for players to log in and post. We've gotten the ball rolling, and a new site is coming, but there will be systems that are removed because they simply are too fragile and cause much of the issues players report on a regular basis.

I'd like to think I'm right in saying we'd all like more reliability and are willing to lose some features to get it. Yes?

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Originally Posted by Sapience

I'd like to think I'm right in saying we'd all like more reliability and are willing to lose some features to get it. Yes?

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The only myLOTRO feature I'm addicted to is the lottery. I don't know why, because I rarely win anything.

I realize it's a lot of work to maintain, and it relies on live character data on the back end, which is even more difficult to maintain. Still, I think that you really can't go wrong with the good publicity that comes with giving free stuff away to the community.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

I'd like to think I'm right in saying we'd all like more reliability and are willing to lose some features to get it. Yes?

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Yes, 100%! I would be more than willing to lose the bells and whistles for more reliability.

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Originally Posted by Fredelas

The only myLOTRO feature I'm addicted to is the lottery. I don't know why, because I rarely win anything.

I realize it's a lot of work to maintain, and it relies on live character data on the back end, which is even more difficult to maintain. Still, I think that you really can't go wrong with the good publicity that comes with giving free stuff away to the community.

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This is one feature I have made clear is one I'm taking 'to the bunker' when the nukes come. The web team is trying to figure out how to make that happen. And make the system more stable and better at the same time.;)

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Originally Posted by Sapience

If I can save blogging features I will (though they may not be part of the initial relaunch of the site even if I do manage to pull that off). Though any blogs in the future would probably end up being the Vbulletin built in blogs and not wordpress as they are now. I've gone round and round with this with the web team and I can honestly say that having seen the issues with integrating WP with the sites and the major issues it creates on the backend (including issues with the WP software itself), I can understand why it's not on the web team's list of favorite things.

I've also made it clear that based on feedback I would happily take a nuclear option of blowing everything away and having just basic forum functionality if it meant we can have a faster system and reliable ability for players to log in and post. We've gotten the ball rolling, and a new site is coming, but there will be systems that are removed because they simply are too fragile and cause much of the issues players report on a regular basis.

I'd like to think I'm right in saying we'd all like more reliability and are willing to lose some features to get it. Yes?

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/signed

I know you dislike when people post that, but I'm agreeing with you SO, how ya like them apples eh?! :p

It makes my hearth blissful to read this thread and realize there's people willing to transcend the experience of Lotro. Is not just playing a game and getting enrage with people, developers and drops rates. Is building solidarity and understanding things works better if you put your individual needs of an arrogant egocentric-self aside.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

This is one feature I have made clear is one I'm taking 'to the bunker' when the nukes come. The web team is trying to figure out how to make that happen. And make the system more stable and better at the same time.;)

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If it was me, I'd just tie the lottery in with the instance finder. You don't use it? You will!... or no boots for you!

muahahahaha!!!



(Wait... There's actually a "web team"???....)

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Originally Posted by Minquinn

I'd like to hear some responses how the community was when you got here and if you think it has changed as I do.

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I've been a part of the community for about five years and the only thing I can say with certainty is that the community is bigger now than when I arrived.

I think it's every bit as passionate, personable, and pugnacious as it ever was; there are just more voices to sift through today.

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Originally Posted by Fredelas

I've been a part of the community for about five years and the only thing I can say with certainty is that the community is bigger now than when I arrived.

I think it's every bit as passionate, personable, and pugnacious as it ever was; there are just more voices to sift through today.

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Happy people tend to happily play the game, unhappy people tend to take time out to vent frustrations on the forum.

If anything had an effect on the lotro community it from post moria onwards it was symptomatic of quicker level capping and lots of easy solo content. There was less of a period of meeting and sharing the game experience with people as you made your way to cap. Odd as it sounds that I feel had a profound effect on the community.

The games player base became more mature and with it expectations to chase how good an experience it was, if you get angry people on the forum, I think its just because gamewise, the biggest high folks got was early on. I don't envy anyone trying to please everyone now.

But I suppose the more commercial you make your game, the more people expect it wo deliver in return?

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Originally Posted by Sapience

I'd like to think I'm right in saying we'd all like more reliability and are willing to lose some features to get it. Yes?

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No, not exactly. I'd like more reliability with the existing features staying intact and the blogs brought back to where they were pre-f2p, personally. I miss the strong community and creative energy of those days. But I understand the rationale regarding the technical issues and appreciate your interest in keeping the blogs if possible.

But here's a spontaneous idea: if blogs don't make it into the new site, how about giving us a 'creative endeavors' forum section, with some subsections along the lines of art, character fiction, music, miscellaneous (poetry, comics, humor)? The specific subcategories of course can be tweaked, but give us some way to bring together the members of the community who enjoy that side of the game experience. Right now there are some character bios and tales in the RP forum, others on server forums, the music has a separate place, screenshots/comics/original art are scattered all over the place. Give us a prominently featured place to find each other's work. It doesn't replace individually designed blog pages and the good organization such pages provide, but it's at least some kind of connection to the old creative spirit.

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Sapience

I've also made it clear that based on feedback I would happily take a nuclear option of blowing everything away and having just basic forum functionality if it meant we can have a faster system and reliable ability for players to log in and post.

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+1

Basics first. Like links working. Or logins working first try. Or pages loading. Thank you.

Cheers,
Gloimli @ Windfola

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Originally Posted by Sapience

If I can save blogging features I will (though they may not be part of the initial relaunch of the site even if I do manage to pull that off). Though any blogs in the future would probably end up being the Vbulletin built in blogs and not wordpress as they are now. I've gone round and round with this with the web team and I can honestly say that having seen the issues with integrating WP with the sites and the major issues it creates on the backend (including issues with the WP software itself), I can understand why it's not on the web team's list of favorite things.

I've also made it clear that based on feedback I would happily take a nuclear option of blowing everything away and having just basic forum functionality if it meant we can have a faster system and reliable ability for players to log in and post. We've gotten the ball rolling, and a new site is coming, but there will be systems that are removed because they simply are too fragile and cause much of the issues players report on a regular basis.

I'd like to think I'm right in saying we'd all like more reliability and are willing to lose some features to get it. Yes?

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As a forum user that has been fighting with the terrible state of these forums since their "beta" re-introduction I'd rather have nothing but forums that work then all the bells and whistles and have the current terrible forums state.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

This is one feature I have made clear is one I'm taking 'to the bunker' when the nukes come. The web team is trying to figure out how to make that happen. And make the system more stable and better at the same time.;)

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The lotto is a favourite feature of mine, as well. As for the player blogs, I've never used them but I can see why people would be upset at their removal. I've always liked the idea that they exist, at any rate.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

This is one feature I have made clear is one I'm taking 'to the bunker' when the nukes come. The web team is trying to figure out how to make that happen. And make the system more stable and better at the same time.;)

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I'd have to agree that the Lotteries would be far and away the last bit I'd give up, but equally, I'd happily throw them to the lions if that is what it took to get the basics running well.

That said, the forums have been way less twitchy for me over the last couple of weeks; probably just luring me into a false sense of security. :)

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Originally Posted by Minquinn

As someone who has played 4 MMO's in my experience the community is what attracts new players to the game. After I quit WOW I wanted to play a game that had a great community so I could easily integrate myself into the game and learned everything I had to know to make my experience enjoyable.

When I first started looking for new games I did extensive research before picking a game. This included youtube videos, wiki's and asking around with friends to see what was a really great game. Something I also did was hit up the forums before playing said game. The general forum. After checking out some f2p games at the time I chose to play DDO. I was familiar with the DND universe (something we played as teenagers) and I wanted to come home. Even though the forum community was great the in game community was not there.

That's when I decided to play this game. Before I did I saw a great video about the difference between WOW and LOTRO that helped me make my decision. My next step was to check out the general discussion forum. This was back in the days when the Moria xpac was out going into the MW xpac. Way back then the forum community was exactly what I was looking for. The posts were basically players helping other players. Good feedback about the game and some valid complaints as well.

I'm not sure what exactly happened because mainly I used the forum to fix the game, figure out a quest, find a kin or just ask questions. Sometimes I offered some suggestions about the content. So, over the last couple weeks that I have been revisiting the general discussion forum I've seen some disturbing behavior. I've gotta tell ya if I was choosing a new MMO and using the general forum as a basis for my decision I would have avoided this game like the plague.

I know we are in a new error of the internet where some believe flaming or trolling is acceptable and makes you look cool. But I think that we all including myself need to think about what we are typing. Do we want to grow this game? Do we want it to end up like WOW, where every single thread gets trolled or flamed. I don't think we do. If anything bringing new players to the game actually helps the community. It starts right here with us the players.

The attitudes from some of the posters/thread starters is showing us in a bad light.

So folks from one Hobbit to men elf and dwarf alike please can we start using just a little personal responsibility on this forum? Seriously lets bring the community back to where it was when I started playing. The devs make the game but a lot of times we are the ones keep players and getting new ones.

I'd like to hear some responses how the community was when you got here and if you think it has changed as I do.

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As long as we are trying to “get things to where they need to be”, there will be no progress from our actions. Sure change/progress/reversals will happen on their own, but not by our efforts. All we can do is evolve as individuals.

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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
Albert Einstein

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No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.
Albert Einstein

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So, unless a great leader emerges among us , I say let things run their course and don’t sweat the small stuff. (hint: it is all small stuff) Naturally, running their course includes threads like this and posts in it like mine. So we are all good here.

Okay, my opinions for what they're worth.

The introduction of F2P at first had a rather unsettling effect, because we got in a segment of the player population who will try anything, so long as it's free, and when they find (as in practically every "F2P" game I've ever heard of) that F2P isn't free, it starts out free and then you have to pay for every little element that you'd get thrown in if you subscribed: whereupon you either pay for all the little elements with genuine money, or you quit.

Some of the F2Pers said "[Verb] this" and went on to the next game (there's always a next game); others settled down to pay their money for every little bit at a time. The former are, for the most part, gone; the latter have settled in and stayed and become part of the LotRO community.

I don't think the higher incidence of bugs lately has anything to do with F2P; I think it happened when the venture capitalists who some years back bought Turbine away from Microsoft (N.B.: M$ did not own Turbine, but it published its games), turned around and sold it to WB, an organization which has kept itself in business for over a century by making sure that everything it did made money and brought it in on schedule, and if quality had to be sacrificed, who cared? Certainly not Jack Warner. (Who died some years ago, but the memory lingers on....)

What I don't know is whether F2P went in before or after WB bought Turbine. Anybody know?

As I stated in the original post, I was wondering about everyone's opinions on the General Forum. Even Sapience has come into this thread and talk about the lottery, blog and other features. Please folks lets stay on track. Is what has been happening over the last month or so in the general forum become disturbing to anyone. We all know there are problems with the other features of the community. Those opinions should be saved for a different thread or a new one.

General Forum your thoughts are welcome. As you can see I have policed my own posts in relationship to this thread. This includes a certain someone that I maybe had a flame war in the past who has posted here. So I think I am taking a good first step. I think we all can.

All the post that pertain to the subject have been enlightening and mainly because I really only glanced at these forums in the past for the reasons previously stated. The truth is I love playing the game so much I don't have alot of time to read the forum. So maybe it was culture shock a little when I saw some of the disturbing behavior.

I started playing in 2008, I guess, and I've always thought the community was awful. I had only played F2P games before, so I was used to people talking to strangers and whatnot. So it was a shock to see a game's community so quiet and unfriendly. Most F2P games I've played you literally couldn't go a second without a guild without someone asking to join.

Here, I've played probably 3000 hours over 5 years and never had anyone ask. (And posting in the guild sections here sure didn't help, either)

When it went F2P, it got a little friendlier, but then it went back to normal.

But as the game's goal have changed, now catering to raiders only it seems, what with giving them the best gear (as opposed to the original days where crafting, questing, and raiding were equal, albeit different), it's gotten much, much worse.

That's what needs to happen - Turbine needs to make everyone in the game the same, not cater only to a few people.