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I agree that a legacy or trait to further boost aoe skill targets for forced taunts would help a lot. That really is the only major flaw I can see in cappy tanking now, as our survivability has increased a lot. That said, I wouldn't want to lose the Pressing Attacks target legacy, as I do use that and know many other Captains who do too. The trait that gives +3 targets for Threatening Shout should give +5 at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elrantiri
-Bel
Well my idea would be to improve the legacy so it affects Pressing Attack + our two other AoE skills rather than just Pressing Attack. To make the legacy more fair I'd also suggest making Pressing Attack a 3 or 4 target skill from the beginning, and then make legacy give 1-3 targets to those three skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Belnavar
Thanks for the write up Bel. This will definitely help us Cappies that did not participate in Beta.
I do have a couple questions.
1- What are our base skills that we get regardless of specialization or gated behind traits. Previous statements suggested all classes would get aprox 7-8. I'm guessing Sure Strike, Cutting Attack, Dev Blow, PA, BoE, Rally Cry and WoC would be some of them.
2- What happens to the moors mit banner now that regular banners become skills?
3- I didn't see Cutting Attack listed in your write up. Does it still apply a slow?
4- Any changes to moors armor set bonuses? The 2 set Perseverance defeat event cd was a go to set bonus. With Rally Cry decoupled from defeat events, this set bonus priority may change.
Thanks.
I somewhat disagree. We have indeed lost some of the skills that make Captains excel in a multirole setup, but I think there's plenty of potential for hybrid builds (e.g. specializing in HoH and spend most points in LtC or vice versa). The only thing we will not see in the same potency is 5r2b and how it gave us brilliant buffing, DPS and healing in one build, and it was (AFAIK) the only build RockX specifically wanted to nerf, especially in regards to the high amount of healing LtC could give.Quote:
Originally Posted by draconis-halberd7
It might also be worth noting that the buffs can be useful across the fellowship. Shield-brother To Arms will give a decent -% incoming damage to the fellowship, and I can see several instances where that will be useful. In some fights there will be moments where DPS is tanking some mobs (e.g. BfE T2CM, Gortheron), and being able to buff e.g. a DPS Champion with some survivability will surely be of good help to your healers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Belnavar
As a HoH Captain in a 3 or 6 man the Song-brother can still be used to buff the heals the tank produce on his/her own while buffing your heals as well. I think especially Wardens and LoM Captains will make good use of being Song-brother.
While Captains have lost in regards to buff versatility, I think this is more of an advantage than a problem. Captains still get to supply rather potent buffs and by having different kinds of buffs in each Trait line, having more than 1 Captain in each Fellowship becomes a lot more viable, especially if they become as potent in the healing/tanking/DPS role as they seem to become.
I'm just curious to see if these changes affect the overall effectiveness of the class. Until I get some hardcore real-time testing in the final build, I'll reserve my (very skeptical) judgement until then.
The short of it:Quote:
Originally Posted by erikthe10man
If you go all in to a specific traitline, you will become a main healer, main DPSer, or main tank.
If you want to maintain the usual captain way of doing things, you have a lot of options to be support.
RockX basically one-upped Rask.
IMHO the legacy for Tactic Duration should be a class LI legacy
Our general pool of skills is much higher than that, over 20, and each line adds between 6-8 more. The base skills are:Quote:
Originally Posted by gungus_coyote
Battle-shout
Sure Strike
Devastating Blow
Blade of Elendil
Pressing Attack
Rallying Cry
Routing Cry
Cutting Attack
Grave Wound
Make Haste
Muster Courage
Motivating Speech
Words of Courage
Kick
Cleanse Corruption
Fighting Withdrawal
Escape from Darkness
Inspiriting Call
Herald of Hope
Herald of Victory
Herald of War
We also have the Brother skill, To Arms, and Inspire, all three of which are available in all builds in their distinctive forms (Song-brother, Blade-brother, etc.) Then we have the 6-8 from each line added on top of this. In some ways we come out with more active combat skills than before.
Bear in mind that the above skills also have their Improved versions still, as far as I can recall.
You can still equip it (even with a Herald), but you can no longer plant it. However, the Herald of Hope now gives +2% Physical and Tactical Mitigations instead of the old morale boost. I didn't see any level 95 Moors Standards, but then I didn't see any level 95 gear either, so maybe it just hasn't been added yet and will go in before launch or in a later update.Quote:
Originally Posted by gungus_coyote
Yes, that is the same as on live. If it isn't listed specifically as a change, expect the skill or functionality to be the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by gungus_coyote
Command 2-Set: +Crit DefenceQuote:
Originally Posted by gungus_coyote
Command 4-Set: Sure Strike increases damage to target by 5% for 10s
Perseverance 2-Set: +Crit Defence
Perseverance 4-Set: Make Haste Cures Slows and provides 5s Immunity
Loyalty 2-Set: +Crit Defence
Loyalty 4-Set: Routing Cry debuffs Incoming Healing by 35% for 10s
There is no level 95 armour set yet, as far as I could see, but then I don't believe there's a PvE 95 set yet either. It seems that initially we'll be focusing on jewellery set bonuses from Big Battles, with armour sets coming in a later update (presumably with additional group content).
From my experience on beta, the class is generally more effective at its three primary roles, and buffs just as good as ever (in some cases better). The tanking line in particular saw a lot of love, upping our survivability considerably, but as others have noted, we have limited AOE abilities, so multi-target tanking will still be difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by erikthe10man
-Bel
Great Fan of the Changes, played a little around in Beta and the Captain still feels like the Captain.
Nevertheless I still need a few hours more trainig with all the passive Buffs and Boni now bundled with acitve Skills. Spend more time looking at my buffs as on the Fight itself.
How is captain power usage in beta? I'm a little concerned that the Rally Cry power heal (equivalent to Now For Wrath, which I think just about every captain perma-slots as soon as we earn it now) is becoming a t6 HoH trait. Did they rescale power costs to balance the fact that we often will not have that power heal? Or will we need to put all the -power cost legacies we can get onto our LIs, and quite possibly still be left sucking wind in long fights?
Glad to see there's at least one class that's pretty happy with what's coming! My cappy may yet see another level cap. :)
I'm gonna assume you mean me. *shrug* I call it how I see it and provide evidence or a logical explanation of WHY I feel that way. You just label me "bitter" and assume that disproves my points? Guess who I think provides the most convincing post...Quote:
Originally Posted by Almagnus1
Good idea here for aoe tanking, but all 3 aoe skills have fairly long cooldowns. This is not going to be enough against an aoe champ or rk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elrantiri
Maybe if pressing attack was removed from our battle shout chain?
I'm pretty clueless on RKs, but especially Champions would enjoy a good bit from being our Shield-brother for the heals, To Arms and Call buff, so if the Captank misses a few mobs it shouldn't be that much of a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by aardnebby
Making Pressing Attack available all the time could work too, but it'd be very repetitive?
Squishy ranged aoe dps is incompatible with poor aoe tanking. Champs can take some hits yes, but it will strain healers if they are pealing all but 1 mob off us cos they can hit what, 7 at a time with most skills in aoe tree, while we have currently 3 skills on 20 second cool downs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elrantiri
And yes spamming the same skill is repetitive, but there's no chance of us getting more skills, so only other options are lowered cool down or making more existing skills aoe
Yeah, but I think/hope a big factor here will be our healing. If there's a threat multiplier on our heals (and if it works :P), our heals just might offset the lack of AoE damage skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by aardnebby
it might sound like a weird tactic but if your a captain solo tanking content, you don't really need to worry too much about aoe because your shield-brother will be getting very strong buffs to keep him alive. you will be doing more actually healing if that champ is taking a little damage and with Exemplar you might get dunadains shield off cooldown much quicker if both of you are being hit.
it sounds backwards but compared to other tanks that dread aggro being lost to the aoe guy, you don't have to worry as much.
Good question. I was under the impression the threat multiplier was only dps. But even if it is on our heals, that's basically just rallying cry and inspire to add on. Can we spam aoe threat as fast as a dps?Quote:
Originally Posted by Elrantiri
Are you trolling? I just responded to this point 2 - 3 posts up.Quote:
Originally Posted by bohbashum
Champ aoe = 7 targets right? If a captain can only match threat on 1 target, that makes 6 on the champ and one on the captain. That's not the captain tanking anymore. The champ doing that better pray they have a great healer, cos they will need it even with our defensive buffs.
The rk doing the same thing is dead as soon as sotd wears off.
*Note to self* - must read threads fully before jumping in.Quote:
Originally Posted by aardnebby
sorry XD
HOWEVER!!!
captain has 2 force taunts iinc, one of them being 3 target and ranged (Threatening shout) and one being melee (Grave Wound).Quote:
Champ aoe = 7 targets right? If a captain can only match threat on 1 target, that makes 6 on the champ and one on the captain.
also, threatening shout it's in the skill list but I'm pretty sure it has the taunt mechanism now.
As much as it is "only" inspire and rallying cry to add on, it's still easily 500+ healing per second for a 3 man group + herald. If that's multiplied with a decent threat multiplier, that'll go a long way for our threat as I see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by aardnebby
No worries, glad you said that. The new taunt sets your threat to 120% of the highest person. In a long fight this is enough to keep up, but in a shorter fight they will blow past that 20% buffer in less than the cool down of your taunt. And it is still not enough targets as is. There are plenty of potential solutions, but right now we fail as a multi target tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by bohbashum
Numbers have not been balanced yet so 500 could be way off, or it could be dead on, still insufficient.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elrantiri
There is also no info I have been able to find about threat for healing from a tank.
So basically, who knows? I can only give logical responses to facts, so this is basically like saying "have faith" as the answer to a maths question. Or you should be saying "healing threat is a viable solution to our aoe threat problem if it's set up right, hey RockX could you take a look please? ".
Since he only responds to me after 4+ repetitions, and I get exactly the kind of dismissive "bitter" comments to my logic there I'm not bothering to post in the beta thread anymore.
thats not all btw, apprantly if you use a taunt and you already have aggro skills after that do more aggro for a short time... we've not seen this in beta though but using a taunt with you already having aggro can do, stuff, just maths is very fussy.Quote:
Originally Posted by aardnebby
aggro is not x3 on healing btw. pretty damn sure about that.
also, rock hasn't said it but egg has on wardens (talking about beta forums...) about huge dps changes to make sure tanks are competitive in terms of dps to aggro. knowing how low captains dps was on beta in this line I wouldn't be surprised if captain got some huge rebalancing of dps on skills. things like maybe boosting pressing attack in LoM or making Routing much more powerful. not exactly sure but maybe something along the same lines as warden sounds to be getting.
ofc I doubt captains will get much more. but I would love to see them be competent enough on at least 3 targets and keep that up easy enough and be a fully viable tank in all content.
Well this kinda amateur balancing and project management is one of the reasons why this revamp is failing so badly. They didn't even discuss expected dps INTERNALLY til Beta 3, so how the heck are they even sure 300% extra threat is the right balance?Quote:
Originally Posted by bohbashum
I have been in since beta 2, and so far it's stumbled from a complete farce to merely "somewhat rubbish". Sure that's an improvement from one beta to the next, but I'm being asked for significantly more money than my current subscription in exchange for an expansion that is actually less fun than playing was before.
you can only balance numbers at the end when you have more solid build. just makes sense, anything else you'd be rebalancing stuff you balanced before and just wasting time.Quote:
Originally Posted by aardnebby
balance tank dps 1/3rd of that of "normal" dps classes.