Player Guide: Class Changes Summary: Warden

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Originally Posted by Darlgon

You just lost a TON of cred. Tanking and wadening is NOT ONLY about solo survival. Its about keeping the group alive.

Thanks for playing. Guess we can see what gets popped up once this sh##-storm goes live.

[Edit] More negative than I really feel to you as a person. I do appreciate the write-up but.. sigh.. it really is far from what is needed. It is a preview of what bad things will come in a few days and reminds me of the 18 months of uselessness we had back with ROI. I finally shelved my warden after he became unplayable.

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My write-up were never about tanking, threat is very invisible, MY focus was on class changes. Threat was beyond my scope with these write-ups, it is changing across the board not just for wardens but for guardians, champs, and captains also. and threat is still being worked on I'm sure they will have everything fixed by the time it goes live, I have faith.

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Originally Posted by Darlgon

Please, please.. PLEASE just make a new thread or post and a LINK to it noting changes in the original post, so I dont have to read through that again, hoping to catch changes.

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That's why I have an edit list at the bottom so those who have already read the whole thing can just look at the bottom and see what I have changed. if you want I can even mark new portions/additions in red. I suppose you can say I am going to "red it"!!! lol

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Originally Posted by Redit

if you want I can even mark new portions/additions in red. I suppose you can say I am going to "red it"!!! lol

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Horrible and awesome play on your forum name.. guess we will take one of your "r"s we added back.

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Originally Posted by Mysterion

With regards to wardens I think once the beta is opened the real fireworks of people being vocal. To me it seems like the spirit of the warden that I loved @65 is almost completely gone. Can't wait to hear everyone's opinions of the procs/clickies/finishers/threat when this goes live.

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Nope. Even with this storm going, it wont be until the game goes live and we REALLY find all the problems.

And.. yes, I read it as RIP my warden (and LM) as we once knew them on that day. Turbine already has my money from my annual sub, so I guess I will buy it with TP, as I see no reason to just donate them money without using up my points.. Depending on how it reads/plays when I log in. tho, it may be wait until December when they have a half-price sale on the expansion due to lack of people purchasing it.

Ok. NOW I am really not happy.

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...Guardian/page2

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Originally Posted by Eliel

That seems like easy mode tanking to me. I don't need to know which skills generate extra threat, I just need to keep hitting things? And then if I do manage to lose a mob, I have 3 versions of Engage?

Am I missing something?

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Originally Posted by oaceen

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Originally Posted by Darlgon

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Originally Posted by Schinderhannes

In Blue and Yellow spec you will generate +300% Aggro, so you basically tank with all skills that deal damage. In addition to that, some of your force taunts will have an new mechanic that adds additional aggro, depending on the total aggro of the fellowship. It's called "threat catch up".

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Wait, are you saying Guards will get TWO tanking stances? (And, yes, possibly my first ever post in the Guard forums.)

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that is correct.

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So we get a "maybe will work" Forced Taunt AND only one tanking stance? While guards get TWO tanking stances AND 3 forms of forced taunt.. Once again.. we are apparently not tanks to Lotro. At least.. that has not changed.

So I came back to LOTRO a month or so ago and have been enjoying leveling up a warden (60 now was planning to take him to cap). I was looking forward to doing some tanking with an usual style tank when I leveled high enough to get teams for group content, but looking at the posts from the beta players it seems muddled as to what the role of the warden is supposed to be after HD.

Is it clear to any of you guys what the intended team role of the warden is after the HD changes? This is all pretty discouraging.

Thanks to those of you who did the beta and have shared your experiences.
Best.

Continuing to express my dissatisfaction with whats being done with the class: The newest update on BETA included a buff to our "determination" gambits damage to help with aggro problems. Not the solution I would have gone for, but ok...

Just looked at the changes to determination gambits....

Persevere, Safeguard, Celebration of Skill, Surety of Death, and Impressive Flourish all hit harder than Warden's Triumph, our theoretically signature DPS skill.

Surety of Death Hits harder than spear of virtue's 2 hits, meaning a skill that was specifically given a DoT and more damage to be made as a viable tanking skill given its loss of raw threat is now useless, since it hits softer than its counterpart AND provides no buffs.

Really?

Does this mean U12.1 will have a corresponding buff to all intended DPS skills to re-establish the seemingly logical concept that damage skills should hit harder than defensive ones?

I dont want to do damage while tanking :( I want to do tanking gambits. You do realize, that wardens main stat in tanking mode is vitality? Do you? Or that changed too?

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Originally Posted by Vilda

I dont want to do damage while tanking :( I want to do tanking gambits. You do realize, that wardens main stat in tanking mode is vitality? Do you? Or that changed too?

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You sure? I've always stacked Will for tanking... Maybe it's just you?

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Originally Posted by Vilda

I dont want to do damage while tanking :( I want to do tanking gambits. You do realize, that wardens main stat in tanking mode is vitality? Do you? Or that changed too?

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just like on live, more damage = more aggro.

just like on live, building for aggro = more aggro.

the only thing they've really done in that regard is actually let us see numbers of how much aggro we are generating and give us a huge amount of choice of itemization of how build we build into one. while on live you have +125% aggro legacies, what does that actually mean? nothing really, it might as well have just said "more aggro!". now if your building a tank you've got an extremely broad choice, that +5% light damage legacy is basically +15% aggro on all light skills.

in fact. this has seriously increased the gambits viable to build aggro. dots normally ignorred now do large amounts of aggro, desolation is looking to be one of the best aoe aggro generaters, assailment is viable to be a range tank (it's weird but do-able) or just to swap to so you can ranged aggro.

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

just like on live, more damage = more aggro.

just like on live, building for aggro = more aggro.

the only thing they've really done in that regard is actually let us see numbers of how much aggro we are generating and give us a huge amount of choice of itemization of how build we build into one. while on live you have +125% aggro legacies, what does that actually mean? nothing really, it might as well have just said "more aggro!". now if your building a tank you've got an extremely broad choice, that +5% light damage legacy is basically +15% aggro on all light skills.

in fact. this has seriously increased the gambits viable to build aggro. dots normally ignorred now do large amounts of aggro, desolation is looking to be one of the best aoe aggro generaters, assailment is viable to be a range tank (it's weird but do-able) or just to swap to so you can ranged aggro.

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Sorry but i really dont get it, i do low dmg on live while tanking, resp. at tanking equip. I have almost no crit. rating, low agility <800 (not really sure). How the hell you can tank with dmg (even with 300% multiplier (or what did i read))? Or you will tank in dmg spec? And get oneshooted? No thx...

And to the 300%, its applied to tanks guard and warden always, or its just in some trait-tree?

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Originally Posted by Vilda

Sorry but i really dont get it, i do low dmg on live while tanking, resp. at tanking equip. I have almost no crit. rating, low agility <800 (not really sure). How the hell you can tank with dmg (even with 300% multiplier (or what did i read))? Or you will tank in dmg spec? And get oneshooted? No thx...

And to the 300%, its applied to tanks guard and warden always, or its just in some trait-tree?

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there has been really big dps balancing changes.

for example at 91 I was doing 1k dps tanking SH just now on beta. no I wasn't trying to dps, just tank with tank gear and tanking gambits.

the +300% damage aggro applies to the 4 tanks in there tanking spec's. warden blue, captain yellow, champion blue, guardian blue and yellow.

if you want to know more check the link first: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...g-Threat-in-HD

I think the main reason most wardens are unhappy with there changes is because they no longer have threat leeches and our biggest way to pull back aggro isn't a gambit, it's DC a new clicky with 20s cooldown. even when you have aggro your promoted to click that skill for the high mit buffs it gives, again, a clicky giving the largest defensive buffs... weird... it's very unwardenly.

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

in fact. this has seriously increased the gambits viable to build aggro. dots normally ignorred now do large amounts of aggro, desolation is looking to be one of the best aoe aggro generaters, assailment is viable to be a range tank (it's weird but do-able) or just to swap to so you can ranged aggro.

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Does Desolation still make the mobs run away in Fear? Makes them pretty hard to melee on, if so.

Sigh.. your post explaining threat makes it sound like tanking now means you hit the new forced taunt with the familiar name of Defiant Challenge every time its off cooldown. That is pretty sad.

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Originally Posted by Darlgon

Does Desolation still make the mobs run away in Fear? Makes them pretty hard to melee on, if so.

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yes.

but anyone who will have used it will know that fear never lasts long as the many other ticks from skills will break them free.

desolation also have a 5/7% miss change debuff on mobs too (7 if used as finisher).

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

yes.

but anyone who will have used it will know that fear never lasts long as the many other ticks from skills will break them free.

desolation also have a 5/7% miss change debuff on mobs too (7 if used as finisher).

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Dang that was a fast reply.

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Originally Posted by Darlgon

Dang that was a fast reply.

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lol, didn't realise. I popped on after a game of Smite XD

going a little more in-detail of playing a few hours ago.

yes desolation looks to be one of the best aoe aggro skills, but it's still only 3 targets (not exactly sure but sure it increases somewhere). the dot is actually the same size, if not larger (because of light damage traits) than the 12312 gambit or the new 3131 gambit dots.

like it's been commented before on beta, spamming resolution is probably one of the best ways to generate innitial aoe aggro too. 3231 is still around (32313 is not) and does more damage that resolution at range ofc. other than that spamming the new Defiant Challange is your best bet to generate a ton of AoE aggro.

I've been able to test with a yellow champ and it was touch and go with many mobs, it was funky and never garenteed aggro and was challanging. one new tactic I had to adopt was swapping target to apply a quick dot (3131 and 3232 do well) along side desolation, I could effectively hold dots down on 3 targets and do a fair amount of damage and hold it. while both of us could probably do better it was clear single-target to 3target aggro was clearly in my favor, any more it's probably better to just admit defeat on a few targets and let him tank and hopw DC pulls then back but hold aggro on the 3 I could dot easily.

the biggest downside in this is aggro'ing is much, much, much harder. I didn't have any time to pop any serious finishers or hots. the durations really suck on them too.

here are 2 screenshots of a few gambits with me being naked and un-traited and using a weak dagger (in screen shot) to show values of the base gambits.

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps6a83c4d2.jpg

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps42da9779.jpg

I think while traited like a tank (and geared) you can end up getting desolation and other dots over 1k. resolute is around 1k too and 3231 is around 1.6k per target. many of the defensive gambits (21/212/23/232/32/323) just alone (21 for example able to do 1k!) could probably hold single-target aggro just fine so there is probably no need to use special dots and stuff.

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Originally Posted by Vilda

Sorry but i really dont get it, i do low dmg on live while tanking, resp. at tanking equip. I have almost no crit. rating, low agility <800 (not really sure). How the hell you can tank with dmg (even with 300% multiplier (or what did i read))? Or you will tank in dmg spec? And get oneshooted? No thx...

And to the 300%, its applied to tanks guard and warden always, or its just in some trait-tree?

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you will get gear that has 250 vit, 200 agi per piece.

It is strange looking at Redit's original post to realize that Warden's gained more skills than were dropped, which is in the opposite direction of the stated design goal of HD.

It seems that the biggest and simplest first step corrective would be to simply increase the buff durations so that Warden players get to make some viable choices, rather than simply having to repetitively repeat the same pattern over and over again like it was compulsive behavior to keep buffs up.

A note to Devs if they are reading the thread. Choice and impact are a big part of having fun in an MMO. It seems as if Warden's viable choices of what to do once an encounter begins are narrowing and their impact on the proceedings are diminished (if I read the posts from the beta posters correctly). It seems a poor design decision to make one of your classes less fun when there is no play balance issue with the other classes.

Just my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by OldRanger

It is strange looking at Redit's original post to realize that Warden's gained more skills than were dropped, which is in the opposite direction of the stated design goal of HD.

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yes, we're the only class to actually gain clickies XD

but if you actually looked at numbers of gambits lost due to a stance gone our number of skills have decreased, but it's barely noticeable. it's more the effects on many gambits that are changed you will notice.

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It seems that the biggest and simplest first step corrective would be to simply increase the buff durations so that Warden players get to make some viable choices, rather than simply having to repetitively repeat the same pattern over and over again like it was compulsive behavior to keep buffs up.

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are you from beta? this is actually what we've been asking for! hopefully they'll increase dramatically before live.

Nope I wasn't in the beta, I was just responding to reading the thread and reflecting on my experience on live. I am pretty recent LOTRO returner (L60 warden main, pre ordered HD) and find myself repeating the same pattern too much on live to be sure to keep my buffs up because I am unsure of myself. I wasn't too excited about the timing getting that much tighter.

If you want to see a youtube vid of how the skill trees work, I found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-YlFD6WIqo

Not sure how it will be outside of Lanuch AH, but at least feels like I got something I could actually look at what each trait tree does.

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Originally Posted by Darlgon

If you want to see a youtube vid of how the skill trees work, I found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-YlFD6WIqo

Not sure how it will be outside of Lanuch AH, but at least feels like I got something I could actually look at what each trait tree does.

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Oooo finally, something more specific, looks good for me:)

Last thing, i still cannot imagine how tanking will work, leeching aggro skills are gone, our standard skills EOB,etc will have some threat part, or not? Can somebody from beta, please, show us some basic rotation, for example from 6m instance against 5 mobs? (without off tank). thx

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Originally Posted by Vilda

Oooo finally, something more specific, looks good for me:)

Last thing, i still cannot imagine how tanking will work, leeching aggro skills are gone, our standard skills EOB,etc will have some threat part, or not? Can somebody from beta, please, show us some basic rotation, for example from 6m instance against 5 mobs? (without off tank). thx

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Tanking is done through dps now. When you spec into a tanking line you get a +300% perceived threat, which basically multiplies your dps by three. So the traditional idea of generating threat is gone and under this new system tanks are supposedly able to get aggro passively by just dpsing. Though this hasn't really been my experience.

As for a basic rotation i'm not really the most experienced tank nor did i do that much tanking in the beta, but it seems like aoe pulls will come down to spamming resolution and the occasional eob for the morale tap while using DC every time its off cooldown. I could be wrong about that but basically you will want a rotation that will maximize your aoe dps.

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Originally Posted by Nimrinoth

Tanking is done through dps now. When you spec into a tanking line you get a +300% perceived threat, which basically multiplies your dps by three. So the traditional idea of generating threat is gone and under this new system tanks are supposedly able to get aggro passively by just dpsing. Though this hasn't really been my experience.

As for a basic rotation i'm not really the most experienced tank nor did i do that much tanking in the beta, but it seems like aoe pulls will come down to spamming resolution and the occasional eob for the morale tap while using DC every time its off cooldown. I could be wrong about that but basically you will want a rotation that will maximize your aoe dps.

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You know, the threat system is simple enough that it might possible to implement a threat meter in Helms Deep.

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Originally Posted by WhimsicalPacifist

You know, the threat system is simple enough that it might possible to implement a threat meter in Helms Deep.

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possible but I doubt it.

you'd need to have clients work together to par up information. I guess it could do this over text in the chat tab but then anyone who wanted to would need to have a chat tab dedicated to the plugin.

as well, we still have heal aggro (and seriously we have no idea how it works really or how to record it well) and there are still some multiples out there that don't have exact numbers connected to it (guardians still have an undamaging aggro skill). it's also kinda fuzzy how taunts work when you have aggro, sometimes it increases your aggro, sometimes decreases, and over numerous tests I don't see any clear reason to why.

possible, but I doubt we'll see it.

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

possible but I doubt it.

you'd need to have clients work together to par up information. I guess it could do this over text in the chat tab but then anyone who wanted to would need to have a chat tab dedicated to the plugin.

as well, we still have heal aggro (and seriously we have no idea how it works really or how to record it well) and there are still some multiples out there that don't have exact numbers connected to it (guardians still have an undamaging aggro skill). it's also kinda fuzzy how taunts work when you have aggro, sometimes it increases your aggro, sometimes decreases, and over numerous tests I don't see any clear reason to why.

possible, but I doubt we'll see it.

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You are aware of the combat analysis plugin, right? I really hope they never do it, but all the tech to do so already exists in player created tools. The biggest challenge would simply be creating an appropriate and non-laggy UI for it.

Heal aggro used to be worth 50% of damage aggro. While I haven't done any testing, I see no reason why they wouldn't continue on with heal threat being worth some fraction of regular damage threat.