Arkenstone Raid leaders

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Originally Posted by Irin19

Been on Ark almost a week and in the moors every night.

This is a solid assessment. Extremely zergy, soloers and duos will get rolled by whole raids without even a conversation about letting them live.

You get a good small group fight someplace OR you wait on a burrowed spider, in 15 seconds you'll have 50 creeps rolling in for their sliver of the pie. OOC and map in points are the worst thing about the moors on ark.

Crazy zergy for sure.

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Some decent solo action to be had while roaming the map. Bad players on both sides will be at either a GV-TR shuffle or Grams-Lugs shuffle. Avoid those areas and fights can be found, although you do end up running around finding nothing for a good chunk of the time. And you may get called out when you do find something, but is dying really such a big deal?

Had a freep group out not to long ago when it was a GV-TR shuffle. We took TR hoping to put an end to that and actually get some roaming fights. It was not even 10 minutes later that the massive freep pug raid was quite happy to take Lugs and set up a Grams camp. Part of the problem is the average player doesn't know anything other than a shuffle. They don't go out looking for a fight, just quick easy points.

-Bozak

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Originally Posted by Gillmour

Some decent solo action to be had while roaming the map. Bad players on both sides will be at either a GV-TR shuffle or Grams-Lugs shuffle. Avoid those areas and fights can be found, although you do end up running around finding nothing for a good chunk of the time. And you may get called out when you do find something, but is dying really such a big deal?

Had a freep group out not to long ago when it was a GV-TR shuffle. We took TR hoping to put an end to that and actually get some roaming fights. It was not even 10 minutes later that the massive freep pug raid was quite happy to take Lugs and set up a Grams camp. Part of the problem is the average player doesn't know anything other than a shuffle. They don't go out looking for a fight, just quick easy points.

-Bozak

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This pretty much describes the action on evernight as well (although the amount of soloers/small groups seems almost non-existant sometimes). It's probably how the action is on every server now.
Main reason for this kind of action is the reward system: zerging/shuffling will get you better infamy/renown compared to solo-/small grouping in most cases.


I for one don't care about infamy/renown, i just go to the moors for the fights (mindless zergshuffles dont classify as fights imo), not to get some meaningless rank.


As you said it is quite easy to stay away from the shuffles/zergs, but it just sucks that sometimes you don't find a thing besides those. And off course the call-outs are a major pain in the ### as well.

Hang in there with a bit more patience. Yes the camp/shuffles are bad right now but servers are getting lots of new people every day now, it's going to take a while for things to shake out. When I first transferred to Ark there was a lot of fun duo and small group action to be found all around the map. Right now it seems like it's simply bad timing -- a good freep group comes out so creeps try to get organized, meanwhile the freep group can't find anything to fight other than get zerged by the mass ball.. so they log.. then the creeps are stuck in a group that has nothing to fight.. so we log.. Let those that still think it's about points do their thing, it's no biggie, there's room for all playstyles -- just be patient and keep trying to get groups out and we'll get good fights rolling. More and more people will pick up on the example and follow suit. And of course we always need more good leaders to make it happen!

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Originally Posted by Sniz

Hang in there with a bit more patience. Yes the camp/shuffles are bad right now but servers are getting lots of new people every day now, it's going to take a while for things to shake out. When I first transferred to Ark there was a lot of fun duo and small group action to be found all around the map. Right now it seems like it's simply bad timing -- a good freep group comes out so creeps try to get organized, meanwhile the freep group can't find anything to fight other than get zerged by the mass ball.. so they log.. then the creeps are stuck in a group that has nothing to fight.. so we log.. Let those that still think it's about points do their thing, it's no biggie, there's room for all playstyles -- just be patient and keep trying to get groups out and we'll get good fights rolling. More and more people will pick up on the example and follow suit. And of course we always need more good leaders to make it happen!

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^ This ^

I was out in a group of 9 last night (some of my buds from Crick that helped me get r15) and we roamed the map, but every time, every.time. there was a fight the zerg mapped in. Can't win against 60 creeps, period.

OOC and map-in-points = ettenmoors biggest problem.

i have no issues with removing map in points, but you better kick up the speed on the travel. Uruks should be able to keep pace with horses. or no maps, no horses....

However, it probably adds more lag moving by horse, running than a map in....

unsure on that...still waiting on the new hardware....

fear da spiders

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Originally Posted by Irin19

^ This ^

I was out in a group of 9 last night (some of my buds from Crick that helped me get r15) and we roamed the map, but every time, every.time. there was a fight the zerg mapped in. Can't win against 60 creeps, period.

OOC and map-in-points = ettenmoors biggest problem.

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Then why fight at map in points?

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Originally Posted by Irin19

^ This ^

I was out in a group of 9 last night (some of my buds from Crick that helped me get r15) and we roamed the map, but every time, every.time. there was a fight the zerg mapped in. Can't win against 60 creeps, period.

OOC and map-in-points = ettenmoors biggest problem.

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Agreed on your points, OOC and map-ins are what makes having a 6man on any server with high creep population a nightmare, I was fighting 5v10 yesterday and winning, for all of about two fights, the 3rd, 4th, and 5th fights they brought 24+ every single time. I disbanded because what's the point? There's no downside for them to absolutely obliterate us with 4x numbers, so they'll just do it until I leave.

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Originally Posted by Whendal

Then why fight at map in points?

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Because there's a map in spot 200m from every single point on the map except the places that creeps never actually go to, maybe? Old plains op and GV are probably the two furthest points from map-in spots in the entire Ettenmoors map, and they're hardly what I'd consider hotspots for good action.

Remove maps, remove horses, give all freeps the March! skill, and see how regularly 24mans decide to travel half way across the map to zerg my 6man, I guarantee we'll get better action.

Ark has some relatively competent craid leaders already. Could be better if they were on more often, but tbh I'm guessing more of the 'desirable' raid leaders on either side would play more if they could get more consistent groups. By desirable raid leaders I mean those looking for challenging/interesting fights and action outside of shuffle/camp areas.

There is no denying the rank and file on both sides wants shuffles, camps, and zergs, and that means these actions rule the day. I've seen on numerous occasions a decent enough raid leader form up on creepside, not get the number they might expect based on #s online, then roam the map or flip something away from the shuffle, then disband due to frustration because the freep horde wouldn't leave the Grams shuffle or the creep horde kept freeps bottled up at GV and no one was willing to bypass it freepside. Equalizing map movement won't fix this, it will just concentrate it even more, as those who don't like dying to a 6-man will stop leaving the zerg/raid's coat-tail's protection.

"Fixing" Glory gain such that zerging is dis-incentivized and the quality of contributions determines rewards is the way to go. That or some truly charismatic leaders on both sides convincing the masses that there is more to lotro than points and not dying (which isn't going to happen).

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Originally Posted by Ethrildar

Agreed on your points, OOC and map-ins are what makes having a 6man on any server with high creep population a nightmare, I was fighting 5v10 yesterday and winning, for all of about two fights, the 3rd, 4th, and 5th fights they brought 24+ every single time. I disbanded because what's the point? There's no downside for them to absolutely obliterate us with 4x numbers, so they'll just do it until I leave.

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This is the problem, I assume you were the 5 man fighting the 10 man group. You say you were winning vs double the numbers, why do you think the other side (doesn't matter what side it is) brought more or called you out?

For what it's worth, if you were able to hold your own vs double your numbers and winning, you should suck it up when you get zerged and keep trying in a different area. The way I see it is, if you're able to get a few kills before dying vs superior numbers, you should be satisfied.

You sound like a princess. (no offense to actual RL princesses)

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Originally Posted by RGilthanas

This is the problem, I assume you were the 5 man fighting the 10 man group. You say you were winning vs double the numbers, why do you think the other side (doesn't matter what side it is) brought more or called you out?

For what it's worth, if you were able to hold your own vs double your numbers and winning, you should suck it up when you get zerged and keep trying in a different area. The way I see it is, if you're able to get a few kills before dying vs superior numbers, you should be satisfied.

You sound like a princess. (no offense to actual RL princesses)

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The problem is my fault, that my 5man can hold off 10 terrible creeps using no coordination? So that makes it okay to bring 24+ rather than 12-13? The whole point was when they lost more than once, their numbers just increased by 100%, because obviously incremental group size increases risk still losing. Simple fact is when they bring 24 or 30 or 500, we're not "getting a few kills" we're getting nothing, we're not even getting fun, it's just boring to play, it's laggy and you're CC locked for the minute or so you live, while all your DPS can do absolutely NOTHING to out-dps their heals.

Balance the classes evenly, for the love of God this needs to happen, because then finally they can put something in place that stops zerging like getting -1 points per kill when its 4x numbers.

I'm sorry but it's not MY FAULT that creeps need more to kill my groups, the fact they suck is also not my fault, and I don't control Turbine's balance system. I'm a full advocate of them being on par with freeps the split second we get some sort of system in place that means they won't still bring 24 to fight my 5man. Because quite frankly without that, they still will.

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Originally Posted by Ethrildar

The problem is my fault, that my 5man can hold off 10 terrible creeps using no coordination? So that makes it okay to bring 24+ rather than 12-13? The whole point was when they lost more than once, their numbers just increased by 100%, because obviously incremental group size increases risk still losing. Simple fact is when they bring 24 or 30 or 500, we're not "getting a few kills" we're getting nothing, we're not even getting fun, it's just boring to play, it's laggy and you're CC locked for the minute or so you live, while all your DPS can do absolutely NOTHING to out-dps their heals.

Balance the classes evenly, for the love of God this needs to happen, because then finally they can put something in place that stops zerging like getting -1 points per kill when its 4x numbers.

I'm sorry but it's not MY FAULT that creeps need more to kill my groups, the fact they suck is also not my fault, and I don't control Turbine's balance system. I'm a full advocate of them being on par with freeps the split second we get some sort of system in place that means they won't still bring 24 to fight my 5man. Because quite frankly without that, they still will.

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Lol, yes, fighting double, triple or quadruple your numbers is a problem unique to freep small groups as sucking is a unique characteristic of creeps. There is a fair share of ####ness on both sides. Probably one of the few balanced parts of pvp.
I do agree on losing inf/ren based on a new reward system though

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Originally Posted by namedisplay

Lol, yes, fighting double, triple or quadruple your numbers is a problem unique to freep small groups as sucking is a unique characteristic of creeps. There is a fair share of ####ness on both sides. Probably one of the few balanced parts of pvp.
I do agree on losing inf/ren based on a new reward system though

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Agreed, I think huge freep groups forming specifically to zerg tiny creep groups, though, is a much less frequent occurrence. There needs to be a downside to zerging, once there is, pvp action will get better for literally every group size.

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Originally Posted by Ethrildar

Agreed, I think huge freep groups forming specifically to zerg tiny creep groups, though, is a much less frequent occurrence. There needs to be a downside to zerging, once there is, pvp action will get better for literally every group size.

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That would require heavily balancing PvMP, something that won't happen. Doesn't take much skill for a 6 man freep group to run around with 2 healers 1 support and 3 dps to fight double their numbers without a loss.

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Originally Posted by Ettenmoors_Emperor

That would require heavily balancing PvMP, something that won't happen. Doesn't take much skill for a 6 man freep group to run around with 2 healers 1 support and 3 dps to fight double their numbers without a loss.

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We had 1 mini (me) 1 under-geared hunter with 25k morale and no mits, 1 LM who's not played in 6 months, a fire RK, and a PUG champ I'd never heard of before. Really not the ezmoders dream group, let alone an OP Freep setup, we weren't even a full 6man. 10 even remotely competent creeps would've destroyed us with that setup. The problem there wasn't creeps are UP, it was these creeps suck, and they can win simply by brining way more to the table, numbers that I can't ever match even half of.

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Originally Posted by Ethrildar

Because there's a map in spot 200m from every single point on the map except the places that creeps never actually go to, maybe? Old plains op and GV are probably the two furthest points from map-in spots in the entire Ettenmoors map, and they're hardly what I'd consider hotspots for good action.

Remove maps, remove horses, give all freeps the March! skill, and see how regularly 24mans decide to travel half way across the map to zerg my 6man, I guarantee we'll get better action.

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I wish the forum rep system still worked. I'd give you piles. This sums up my sentiments so well.

I'm not currently playing, but here's the deal. We are at the end of a level/gear increase, so it's freep domination time. Eventually there will be yet another cap increase, all the digital stuff that makes the average freep competitive will once again be vendor trash. Then it will be creep domination time again. This is lotro, it really has not changed in since SOA.

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Originally Posted by Ethrildar

We had 1 mini (me) 1 under-geared hunter with 25k morale and no mits, 1 LM who's not played in 6 months, a fire RK, and a PUG champ I'd never heard of before. Really not the ezmoders dream group, let alone an OP Freep setup, we weren't even a full 6man. 10 even remotely competent creeps would've destroyed us with that setup. The problem there wasn't creeps are UP, it was these creeps suck, and they can win simply by brining way more to the table, numbers that I can't ever match even half of.

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My earlier point remains, and you just validated it even more so. You said you had 5 freeps winning vs 10 creeps, and now with a "bad" group make up you should be even more happier that you still got kills.

Pretty sure you just want the ezmode points.

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Originally Posted by RGilthanas

You sound like a princess. (no offense to actual RL princesses)

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None taken.

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Originally Posted by Gillmour

None taken.

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You really know how to turn me on. Meet me at GG.

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Originally Posted by Ethrildar

Agreed, I think huge freep groups forming specifically to zerg tiny creep groups, though, is a much less frequent occurrence. There needs to be a downside to zerging, once there is, pvp action will get better for literally every group size.

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Saw you for the first time in ~5 months (unless you've been playing an alt i don't know). zerged 6v1 while roaming a literal thousand meters from any actual action.

If you want to talk the talk, you should probably walk the walk as well, but then you've always been a points chaser.

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Originally Posted by spelunker

Saw you for the first time in ~5 months (unless you've been playing an alt i don't know). zerged 6v1

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I had a 6man because my 3man - which didn't even have a healer - spent ages fighting inside EC and 2 friends + a friend of theirs wanted to join. We were looking for the 20-30 creeps that eventually wiped us, to fight them again.

6v1 is BS and you know it, you were 2v1'ing a solo mini. If you wanna talk the talk, at least don't make up ####?

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Originally Posted by spelunker

but then you've always been a points chaser.

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Really? That explains my insanely high rank I guess? And how a massive proportion of my kills are also my KBs. I suppose that also explains how I'm always avoiding shuffles and hate them with a fiery passion? You sound a bit upset that you died, frankly. And in all honesty, I'd not have even bothered touching you if you weren't 2v1'ing a soloer on Wargs, a week after they took a 50% increase in damage lol.

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Originally Posted by Ethrildar

I had a 6man because my 3man - which didn't even have a healer - spent ages fighting inside EC and 2 friends + a friend of theirs wanted to join. We were looking for the 20-30 creeps that eventually wiped us, to fight them again.

6v1 is BS and you know it, you were 2v1'ing a solo mini. If you wanna talk the talk, at least don't make up ####?

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That wasn't the fight I was talking about, and I wasn't on a warg when it happened (since I would have left). And for the record, I'd been incombat with that mini for over a minute (notice how my morale was still near full) and the other warg jumped in about 5 seconds before you arrived.

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Really? That explains my insanely high rank I guess? And how a massive proportion of my kills are also my KBs. I suppose that also explains how I'm always avoiding shuffles and hate them with a fiery passion? You sound a bit upset that you died, frankly. And in all honesty, I'd not have even bothered touching you if you weren't 2v1'ing a soloer on Wargs, a week after they took a 50% increase in damage lol.

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Hard to have a ton of crazy high ranks when you hopped from Champ in RoR to warden/mini since HD. You're pretty well known on BW for running 2 healing Mini, LM+cappy, 2 warden or 1 warden 1 rk groups, of course your kill/kb is high.
https://youtu.be/ZrWL978tEYw?t=511 the 8:30 mark pretty much sums up my experiences with you in the moors.

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Originally Posted by spelunker

You're pretty well known on BW for running 2 healing Mini, LM+cappy, 2 warden or 1 warden 1 rk groups, of course your kill/kb is high.

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Pretty well known? That it? Shame. I'd say my more signature group was 5 minis 1 Warden. Malaricks 18-24mans cried about those for weeks. He broke down in TS and couldn't speak without stuttering. Certainly a job well done.

Yes, I did indeed jump in and gank your 1v1 in that video. As much as your forum posts are generally insightful and well-rounded, your holier-than-thou attitude irks me and always has, so yes, I would strive to kill you in pvp. The respect you garner from your forum posts from then until now, would've carried on. I'd not knowingly steamroll you with a 6man, out of respect for your forum posts. But 2v1 with a mini? No qualms what so ever. 6v1 a player I don't know? Sure why not, that creep won't show me the same courtesy later on when it's my 6 versus his 50, regardless of whether I spare him or not.

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Originally Posted by Ethrildar

I had a 6man because my 3man - which didn't even have a healer - spent ages fighting inside EC and 2 friends + a friend of theirs wanted to join. We were looking for the 20-30 creeps that eventually wiped us, to fight them again.

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I watched your 6 man run in and out of OC on and off for about a half an hour chasing solos, mostly low ranked

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Originally Posted by Ethrildar

Pretty well known? That it? Shame. I'd say my more signature group was 5 minis 1 Warden. Malaricks 18-24mans cried about those for weeks. He broke down in TS and couldn't speak without stuttering. Certainly a job well done.

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Bring a raid's worth of healing, complain when a raid shows up. I think this is pretty much what Rubi was saying days ago.

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Yes, I did indeed jump in and gank your 1v1 in that video. As much as your forum posts are generally insightful and well-rounded, your holier-than-thou attitude irks me and always has, so yes, I would strive to kill you in pvp. The respect you garner from your forum posts from then until now, would've carried on. I'd not knowingly steamroll you with a 6man, out of respect for your forum posts. But 2v1 with a mini? No qualms what so ever. 6v1 a player I don't know? Sure why not, that creep won't show me the same courtesy later on when it's my 6 versus his 50, regardless of whether I spare him or not.

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so if i'm a dignified forum poster I'm free from zerging, but all those random solos; melt their faces!

Saying that instead of this might have avoided a lot of confusion, though:

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Originally Posted by Ethrildar

There needs to be a downside to zerging, once there is, pvp action will get better for literally every group size.

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Its easy to talk a big game on the forums about how pvp should be. Its quite another thing to actually do it, so props on admitting you don't even believe the things you say.