Basic Stalker Question

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Originally Posted by Spilo

Simplest fix, which I suggest long ago, would be to reduce Sprint to 150% in-combat, 200% out of combat.

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I think 200% in or out is stupid to be honest, I rarely ever see it used as an offensive skill and when it is, it's really over-the-top if used right. 150% would be acceptable, given the duration, but I still think the skill in it's current 2D design is just dumb.

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Originally Posted by Intolerance

My hunt has a +Movement Speed skill also...but it drops in combat. Why should there be a disparity in the ability to move at a certain speed during combat? Clearly...any class/toon that can move faster than their opponent during active combat has a very distinct advantage. Why should any class get a default offensive advantage skill? Wargs already have March for OOC, yes?

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Yeah and your Hunter is a ranged class that doesn't suffer from melee range issues like (funnily enough) melees do. Creeps lose their equiv of Find the Path (March) when entering combat, and all melee classes either have a sprint or a slow cure (except Warden, which is one of my biggest gripes on Warden, the inability to combat kiting).

My biggest issue with this is Wargs have A) the two best escape skills in the game on the shortest CDs in the game, B) an already over-potent inherent run speed buff, what is it, +15% in combat? and C) A slow that lasts forever, it has to be applied only once per fight... This combination of effects really negates the need for a slow cure or a sprint on Warg, although it's here and it's clearly here to stay. I think having these 3 huge advantages as well as BIS DPS and stealth + tracking is stupid, frankly.

One reason why the PvP is so bad is because it's just not that realistic. The stealth mechanics and stealth classes in the game are not well designed, esp for PvP.

A clever way to manage class balance is to create some deterrent for using an overpowered skill. For example, keep sprint as it is, but add an effect where after it wears off, you get a -50% movement speed debuff and can't stealth/pops out of stealth for 20s. Or make sprint tier based and it tiers down for each attack you make or hit you receive while sprinting.

As it is, a well played warg still has a 100% chance to beat all but the best morale stacked freeps in 8s or less. What to speak of warg packs and warg lag. Currently there's no deterrent for playing that way.

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Originally Posted by Ethrildar

Creeps lose their equiv of Find the Path (March) when entering combat, and all melee classes either have a sprint or a slow cure (except Warden, which is one of my biggest gripes on Warden, the inability to combat kiting).

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Originally Posted by Ethrildar

My biggest issue with this is Wargs have ... C) A slow that lasts forever, it has to be applied only once per fight...

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Wardens have Hampering Javelin which is 30% slow and lasts for 35s, which is a more effective slow and longer duration than Crippling Bite.

There have been very few incidents where my warden has gotten screwed by kiting, usually when it happens it's in a vastly outnumbered and/or solo scenario. I don't even know why anyone would want to be solo now, unless if they pvp on Landroval.

If you get kited you can just spam heals, or reapply slow, or pop brand to get back in melee range, or if you're really desperate you can fk the rules of engagement and just callout in OOC and a raid will steamroll those pesky creeps for you. But TBH, the first 3 things should guarantee a victory if you're fighting 1v1 and the 4th option is for those map-in zergbabies. Otherwise, you will usually be in a group with another class that can apply a stun, root, daze, etc. or you have ranged DPS like blue hunter, fire RK, LM, etc.

The problems you're talking about only exist in the broken AF solo gameplay and there is no super-soldier solo class that kills everything by itself, albeit that class used to be warden for a long time until the meta changed.

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Originally Posted by Spilo

Here's the problem with this. First off, every Melee Class on Freep/Creepside has a sprint equivalent, and removing one would just put the one at a severe disadvantage (I hate using that as an argument, but every Melee class has the equivalent of a slow-ignore). Secondly, and more importantly, it'd indirectly buff ranged slows and CC.

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How many brands creeps have access to today...inc Mords?

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Originally Posted by Ethrildar

I think 200% in or out is stupid to be honest, I rarely ever see it used as an offensive skill and when it is, it's really over-the-top if used right. 150% would be acceptable, given the duration, but I still think the skill in it's current 2D design is just dumb.

Yeah and your Hunter is a ranged class that doesn't suffer from melee range issues like (funnily enough) melees do. Creeps lose their equiv of Find the Path (March) when entering combat, and all melee classes either have a sprint or a slow cure (except Warden, which is one of my biggest gripes on Warden, the inability to combat kiting).

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Yes...it's dumb.

Again...pots and brands.

My slow is pottable...how 'bout creeps'?

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Originally Posted by Vrin

A clever way to manage class balance is to create some deterrent for using an overpowered skill. For example, keep sprint as it is, but add an effect where after it wears off, you get a -50% movement speed debuff and can't stealth/pops out of stealth for 20s. Or make sprint tier based and it tiers down for each attack you make or hit you receive while sprinting.

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Yes...something like this. Some penalty...some cost...something.

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Originally Posted by Vrin

As it is, a well played warg still has a 100% chance to beat all but the best morale stacked freeps in 8s or less.

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And it all comes from class mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Senatus

I don't even know why anyone would want to be solo now, unless if they pvp on Landroval.

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All I do is solo. Much better that way.

No zerging. No slop points (I don't kill greenies). No stupid trips to DoF bosses (unless I'm killing play4points creeps ;)). No group leaders with big heads and little arms (stay dismounted...or you'll get the boot...lololmfao whatever).

My fights are my own. My time is my own. My movement is my own. My wins are my own.

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Originally Posted by Intolerance

How many brands creeps have access to today...inc Mords?

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1 brand, same as Freepside. Fury pot has a 10s duration, grants immunity, not removal, and can only be used out of combat.

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Originally Posted by Vrin

A clever way to manage class balance is to create some deterrent for using an overpowered skill. For example, keep sprint as it is, but add an effect where after it wears off, you get a -50% movement speed debuff and can't stealth/pops out of stealth for 20s. Or make sprint tier based and it tiers down for each attack you make or hit you receive while sprinting.

As it is, a well played warg still has a 100% chance to beat all but the best morale stacked freeps in 8s or less. What to speak of warg packs and warg lag. Currently there's no deterrent for playing that way.

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That's a bad idea. How exactly would I then cope with Kiting ranged classes and sprinting medium/heavies? The only, and I accentuate, only problem with Sprint is the escape capabilities it gives. Reducing it to 50%, or even 40% in-combat (and changing Guardian sprint to the same) would make sense. We're talking absurdly complex solutions that cause numerous other problems to something that has an absurdly easy answer.

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Originally Posted by Spilo

1 brand, same as Freepside. Fury pot has a 10s duration, grants immunity, not removal, and can only be used out of combat.




That's a bad idea. How exactly would I then cope with Kiting ranged classes and sprinting medium/heavies? The only, and I accentuate, only problem with Sprint is the escape capabilities it gives. Reducing it to 50%, or even 40% in-combat (and changing Guardian sprint to the same) would make sense. We're talking absurdly complex solutions that cause numerous other problems to something that has an absurdly easy answer.

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You also have a few other options outside of using sprint ie: You can hips, flank them, 100% guaranteed knockdown and wreck them in 5s, easily coped with.

Unfortunately, due to years of neglect, the way the game breaks down now is like game of rock paper scissors with some classes having nuclear weapons. Maybe you are a bit out of touch with playing other classes in the moors because some classes have absolutely no escape skills, or in combat sprint skills or automatic win buttons with a 1s CD like wargs. Now it might be the case that you don't want to make PvP a little more realistic, or maybe you think that it would over complicated the game mechanics, but you've essentially highlighted the crux of my point. It's not absurd to give a skill some downside. You're not suppose to have a set of skills that allows you to cope with every possible situation and come out on top. If someone has a positional advantage, it should be very difficult to cope with, which sprint completely negates. The sprint tier suggestion would make this situation much more realistic, allow you to close the gap, but also reward your opponent for having a better position. Currently sprint also gives wargs an absurd advantage over other melee classes as an offensive skill, esp if the warg has good movement and rotation. The tier suggestion would also fix this advantage. It makes the skill way more realistic and forces you to be more creative with how you are going to use it. Sure it's more complex, but PvP has long been sorely in need of more complexity and more realism. You say adding more mechanics is absurdly complex. You've described it incorrectly...it's absurdly optimistic. On the other hand, I don't believe an outright nerf will fix the inherent issue here, even if it's nerfed to 40%. As we've seen countless times before, nerfs and buffs are superficial and don't fix the broken mechanic.

The other fix the warg needs is some downside to 100% crit rate. If you want to talk about absurdity...that's the pink elephant in the room.

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Originally Posted by Spilo

1 brand, same as Freepside. Fury pot has a 10s duration, grants immunity, not removal, and can only be used out of combat.




That's a bad idea. How exactly would I then cope with Kiting ranged classes and sprinting medium/heavies? The only, and I accentuate, only problem with Sprint is the escape capabilities it gives. Reducing it to 50%, or even 40% in-combat (and changing Guardian sprint to the same) would make sense. We're talking absurdly complex solutions that cause numerous other problems to something that has an absurdly easy answer.

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How does fire rk cope with any creep who decides to run? They dont, and cant prevent running any way or form.

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Originally Posted by Vrin

You also have a few other options outside of using sprint ie: You can hips, flank them, 100% guaranteed knockdown and wreck them in 5s, easily coped with.

Unfortunately, due to years of neglect, the way the game breaks down now is like game of rock paper scissors with some classes having nuclear weapons. Maybe you are a bit out of touch with playing other classes in the moors because some classes have absolutely no escape skills, or in combat sprint skills or automatic win buttons with a 1s CD like wargs. Now it might be the case that you don't want to make PvP a little more realistic, or maybe you think that it would over complicated the game mechanics, but you've essentially highlighted the crux of my point. It's not absurd to give a skill some downside. You're not suppose to have a set of skills that allows you to cope with every possible situation and come out on top. If someone has a positional advantage, it should be very difficult to cope with, which sprint completely negates. The sprint tier suggestion would make this situation much more realistic, allow you to close the gap, but also reward your opponent for having a better position. Currently sprint also gives wargs an absurd advantage over other melee classes as an offensive skill, esp if the warg has good movement and rotation. The tier suggestion would also fix this advantage. It makes the skill way more realistic and forces you to be more creative with how you are going to use it. Sure it's more complex, but PvP has long been sorely in need of more complexity and more realism. You say adding more mechanics is absurdly complex. You've described it incorrectly...it's absurdly optimistic. On the other hand, I don't believe an outright nerf will fix the inherent issue here, even if it's nerfed to 40%. As we've seen countless times before, nerfs and buffs are superficial and don't fix the broken mechanic.

The other fix the warg needs is some downside to 100% crit rate. If you want to talk about absurdity...that's the pink elephant in the room.

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Wreck them in 5s? What game are you playing?

Again, we're having a discussion about a Sprint skill that literally every melee class but Warden has (Burglar has a ranged slow, so close enough), and its use to escape combat. Again, you're over complicating a pretty simple issue. I'm not a fan of Sprint skills across the board, but punishing Wargs for using it offensively seems silly to me. Usually Sprint in combat is used (for me) when a hunter is Quick Shot slow kiting, LMs CC/WL spam kiting, and every other melee class running away.

In an effort to simplify the discussion and to prevent the rabbit trails (such as the 100% crit rate, which I also disagree on :P), I'd like to ask- what exactly is your problem with Sprint? Your answer may help steer the discussion.

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Originally Posted by siipperi

How does fire rk cope with any creep who decides to run? They dont, and cant prevent running any way or form.

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I've often wondered why RKs don't seem to have much of a slow, but they do have the advantage of range and CC. I fail to see what bearing that has.

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Originally Posted by Spilo

Wreck them in 5s? What game are you playing?
I'd like to ask- what exactly is your problem with Sprint? Your answer may help steer the discussion.

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Spilo, We both know that this "discussion" is really a discussion about a symptom of a much larger PvP disease.

The fact that you use the skill offensively for only those particular situations is more evidence that the skill mechanic is currently broken because you've just listed 2 of maybe 6 scenarios where a freep isnt going to get full barred by a warg. In all other scenarios, a warg doesn't even have to use it to completely destroy their opponent.

Play for 2 weeks solo as any freep class other than burg or healer and you will come up with a list of dozens of scenarios where warg sprint is way over the top. I know I really don't need to make a list for you. Yes, the speed is over the top, but the mechanic is also broken. Offensively it's an auto win skill against 95% of the freep population because with good positioning and rotation it lets you get in 5 skills for everyone one they can use, if they can even hit you because of how fast you can move. This would still be true for a 40% sprint because in LoTRO, because with a movement advantage you can move in a way that makes it nearly impossible for someone to hit you. I can do this on champ with a 25% sprint and hamstring. For most freep classes there are literally zero ways of counteracting it apart from waiting it out, by which time you will be long dead due to the other currently broken mechanic I mentioned in my last post. Defensively it's an auto-escape skill that works 100% of the time. I agree that nerfing the speed will reduce the chance of escape, simple due to the fact that the warg can cover less ground, however-the skill is so versatile, it makes top tier players nearly unbeatable with the current state of warg dps. Previously when creep dps was lower, sprint was an essential part of the warg rotation in order to kill a decent freep. With the recent creep buffs, it's an auto-win button. There's a reason why flocks of people have migrated to playing warg, and also why players who are looking for something challenging have avoiding playing the class. Make sprint tier up and down and change 100% crit to 60%total and wargs will be a more reasonable class.

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know I really don't need to make a list for you. Yes, the speed is over the top, but the mechanic is also broken.

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But... the speed is the mechanic.

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Offensively it's an auto win skill against 95% of the freep population because with good positioning and rotation it lets you get in 5 skills for everyone one they can use, if they can even hit you because of how fast you can move.

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Do you Key turn or skill click? Because that's the only way that your described scenario can happen (even ignoring Ranged classes).

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This would still be true for a 40% sprint because in LoTRO, because with a movement advantage you can move in a way that makes it nearly impossible for someone to hit you.

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Again I must wonder if you skill click or key turn, because I honestly have no idea where you get the idea that Sprint puts you in an unhittable position.

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I can do this on champ with a 25% sprint and hamstring.

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So you're for nerfing that too, then?

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Defensively it's an auto-escape skill that works 100% of the time.

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Correct, and it will stay that way without a nerf to Sprint's in-combat capability.

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Previously when creep dps was lower, sprint was an essential part of the warg rotation in order to kill a decent freep.

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Honestly you're really putting way too much of a focus on Sprint's usefulness. It's literally useful for 3 things, 1. Catching Freeps on Horses, 2. Running Away, 3. Catching up with people sprint/slow kiting. It's never been an essential part of a Warg rotation.

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With the recent creep buffs, it's an auto-win button.

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No, it's really not.

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There's a reason why flocks of people have migrated to playing warg, and also why players who are looking for something challenging have avoiding playing the class.

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No, the reason is because Bestial Claws accounts for too much of the general % of DPS (and it's because it hits too hard, not because of its 100% crit rate). I've already suggested numerous ways of fixing this. The current state of Warg allows me only to lose to people who have put as much time into their class as I have, and I like that. What I don't like is how mediocre wargs look decent (we agree on that).

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Make sprint tier up and down and change 100% crit to 60%total and wargs will be a more reasonable class.

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You have good intentions but but again your suggested changes aren't going to fix things. Sprint fleeing is still going to work and Wargs will just rely a little more on RNG in order to hit 1 skill for respectable DPS

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Originally Posted by Senatus

Wardens have Hampering Javelin which is 30% slow and lasts for 35s, which is a more effective slow and longer duration than Crippling Bite.

If you get kited you can just spam heals, or reapply slow, or pop brand to get back in melee range, or if you're really desperate you can fk the rules of engagement and just callout in OOC and a raid will steamroll those pesky creeps for you. But TBH, the first 3 things should guarantee a victory if you're fighting 1v1 and the 4th option is for those map-in zergbabies. Otherwise, you will usually be in a group with another class that can apply a stun, root, daze, etc. or you have ranged DPS like blue hunter, fire RK, LM, etc.

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Your post seemed thought-out until I read it to the end. The slow is 30%, which is the same as or worse than almost every other slow in the game, the only thing it has going for it is it's duration but with Warden having no sprint or slow cure, it's easily the most kiteable class in the game, the only godsend in this regard is that it has DOTs, as without these it'd be unplayable half the time with all the kiting and CCs. With regards to blue hunter DPS, what class are you playing because it isn't Warden? Yellow Warden is AMAZINGLY BAD DPS, Red is steadily falling behind other classes and is incomparable to Blue Hunter DPS.

Back to the point, the slow is marginally better than the Warg slow, but the fact that Wargs have an inherent 15% speed advantage in combat over all Freeps makes that moot and also makes Wargs slow technically 10% better than Wardens slow.

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Originally Posted by Spilo

1 brand, same as Freepside. Fury pot has a 10s duration, grants immunity, not removal, and can only be used out of combat.

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2 brands, some creeps have Mords brands. And you downplay fury pot as though it's in some way not incredibly unbalanced when Freepside hasn't got anything comparable to it. Fury pot is the single biggest decider in fights 1v1 with Wargs for almost all Freep classes, to downplay that is laughable.

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Originally Posted by Spilo

Wreck them in 5s? What game are you playing?

Again, we're having a discussion about a Sprint skill that literally every melee class but Warden has (Burglar has a ranged slow, so close enough), and its use to escape combat. Again, you're over complicating a pretty simple issue. I'm not a fan of Sprint skills across the board, but punishing Wargs for using it offensively seems silly to me.

I've often wondered why RKs don't seem to have much of a slow, but they do have the advantage of range and CC. I fail to see what bearing that has.

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Wreck them in 5sec? He's playing the same game the rest of us are playing, you're a good Warg, and I'm 100% positive that 90% of your kills in pvp are wins for you in under 10 seconds. Don't pretend that you do not see this.

I agree that Sprint should not penalise Wargs using it offensively, but the skill needs to change because it's overpotent as an escape skill and overpotent as an offensive skill, guaranteeing positional damage for 20 seconds and making it 250% harder for a melee opponent to land a hit on you.

RK's dont have a "range advantage", no class in this game has that anymore except Spider (which is immensely competent in both melee and ranged), simply because no class can maintain that range versus 200% sprints and cruddy slows. An RK has the ranged advantage against a Warg for perhaps 2 seconds, and you can GUARANTEE that the Warg will HIPS... Whether or not they come back depends on the Warg. Also RK CC is awful and the durations are tiny.

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Originally Posted by Vrin

Play for 2 weeks solo as any freep class other than burg or healer and you will come up with a list of dozens of scenarios where warg sprint is way over the top.

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Basically this... Sprint is a horrible skill to have to fight against and gives too much advantage to an already massively advantaged class. Playing a Freep solo for more than a couple of hours shows you how stupid Wargs are, on competent and raid-geared Freeps with high morale you'll die repeatedly (over and over and over and over and over...) to bad Wargs in 2-3-4v1 or good Wargs that use Fury pot OR Sprint OR HIPS. Mediocre Wargs can use all 3 to guarantee a win.

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Originally Posted by Spilo

I've often wondered why RKs don't seem to have much of a slow, but they do have the advantage of range and CC. I fail to see what bearing that has.

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Creep slows you - they run, and you can't catch them - mount, catch creep. put one or 2 dots on creep - creep again out of range - can't catch, mount repeat.

So there is really not any reason to cry if wargs have something disadvantageous vs some ranged, if they get kited a bit (which they shouldn't get in the first place since very strong slow...).

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Originally Posted by Spilo

1 brand, same as Freepside. Fury pot has a 10s duration, grants immunity, not removal, and can only be used out of combat.

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Ummm...

https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Rulum

There's one brand.

https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Ite...hun's_Fury

There's the Fury pot...of which freeps have no equivalent.

https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Item:Mordirith's_Brand

There's another brand.

There's also the standard barterable Stun & Root pots.

Again...my slow is pottable...how 'bout yours?

[QUOTE=Ethrildar;7687181

Wreck them in 5sec? He's playing the same game the rest of us are playing, you're a good Warg, and I'm 100% positive that 90% of your kills in pvp are wins for you in under 10 seconds. Don't pretend that you do not see this.[quote]


Only when the player is under-geared or played poorly. Even if they are dying in under 10 seconds, Sprint's only bearing on that is that I was able to catch them in the first place.

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I agree that Sprint should not penalise Wargs using it offensively, but the skill needs to change because it's overpotent as an escape skill and overpotent as an offensive skill, guaranteeing positional damage for 20 seconds and making it 250% harder for a melee opponent to land a hit on you.

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This is literally the first time I've ever heard Sprint being overpowered as an offensive skill. It makes me wonder whether we're playing the same game. It only guarantees positional if the target I'm going against has incompetent movement. It only guarantees the possibility of positional.

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Originally Posted by siipperi

So there is really not any reason to cry if wargs have something disadvantageous vs some ranged, if they get kited a bit (which they shouldn't get in the first place since very strong slow...).

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Wargs do fine versus ranged except for Blue Line Hunters, for the most part. Also it's amusing that now Offensive Sprint and Crippling bite are considered "OP" parts of Warg gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Intolerance

Ummm...

https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Rulum

There's one brand.

https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Ite...hun's_Fury

There's the Fury pot...of which freeps have no equivalent.

https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Item:Mordirith's_Brand

There's another brand.

There's also the standard barterable Stun & Root pots.

Again...my slow is pottable...how 'bout yours?

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So, a Brand that is accessible by Freepside. A pre-pot that has been part of Creepside for years, and a Brand that has long been unattainable. Oh and pots that are also accessible to Freepside.

My slow is 25%, has to be applied in Melee range, and has a Cooldown for re-application. Oh and I also have to apply that slow or I'll never touch your class.

Half of this discussion, as it is with most LOTRO PvP discussions, is one massive Apples to Oranges comparison with people not actually applying real life positions of classes, but boiling down to "My class isn't equally capable in equal ways to yours."

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Originally Posted by Spilo

But... the speed is the mechanic.



Do you Key turn or skill click? Because that's the only way that your described scenario can happen (even ignoring Ranged classes).



Again I must wonder if you skill click or key turn, because I honestly have no idea where you get the idea that Sprint puts you in an unhittable position.




So you're for nerfing that too, then?



Correct, and it will stay that way without a nerf to Sprint's in-combat capability.




Honestly you're really putting way too much of a focus on Sprint's usefulness. It's literally useful for 3 things, 1. Catching Freeps on Horses, 2. Running Away, 3. Catching up with people sprint/slow kiting. It's never been an essential part of a Warg rotation.



No, it's really not.



No, the reason is because Bestial Claws accounts for too much of the general % of DPS (and it's because it hits too hard, not because of its 100% crit rate). I've already suggested numerous ways of fixing this. The current state of Warg allows me only to lose to people who have put as much time into their class as I have, and I like that. What I don't like is how mediocre wargs look decent (we agree on that).



You have good intentions but but again your suggested changes aren't going to fix things. Sprint fleeing is still going to work and Wargs will just rely a little more on RNG in order to hit 1 skill for respectable DPS

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First of all, just the speed is not the mechanic, the mechanic is how the speed is delivered. A clear distinction which I thought would be obvious. That you don't think it's an essential part of the rotation is disappointing. Having played against hundreds of wargs and killed them thousands of times, I can tell you from experience the ones who were successful were the ones who knew how to use sprint effectively with good movement (and also knowing how to mask effects well) You are not giving enough importance to good position and movement, which is king in all matters in life.

I don't key turn and trust me, you can still be out positioned with mouse turning against a speed bonus. During sprint you can literally run circles around ranged in such a way that makes it impossible to follow even with a mouse. You basically have to guess where they are going to be with maybe a 25% success rate if they are good at varying their pattern. With melee, wargs can kite them in a way that allows you to exchange 5 skills for every 1 they get off even the melee can follow. It gives the warg an absurb, un-realistic movement advantage at the present time considering the DPS. Either A:) You're not aware of this fact and how it's used to full effect or B) You're aware of it but you're negligently writing it off as not important due to a bias.

Secondly, the crit rate does need a nerf to 60% as that will solve two problems. First problem it will solve the 100% knockdown which allows wargs to nuke fully geared morale stacked freeps in 5-8s. If you don't think this is an issue, again, try playing a solo non-healer non-stealth class. Every single fight goes exactly the same way. Second problem it will lessen the absurd bursts that wargs are capable of doing by chaining their skills together. Letting RNG take over is what wargs NEED. Give them a chance to fail and suddenly the class becomes reasonable to play and play against. Bestial claws is over the top and not having it crit 100% of the time will be exactly what is needed for it to be exciting for both the warg and whoever it's fighting. It still gives them a GOOD chance for top tier DPS. I'm not advocating to take away the warg nuke, I'm suggesting that we give it a chance to happen. Nerfing crit is definitely the way to go here. I'm also not suggesting nerfing sprint, the tiering option makes the skill more situational and prevents wargs from having a supreme advantage over it's opponent for the entire duration. It also forces them to choose to use it either offensively or defensively and removes it as a blanket solution for every mistake they make.

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Originally Posted by Vrin

I can tell you from experience the ones who were successful were the ones who knew how to use sprint effectively

During sprint you can literally run circles around ranged in such a way that makes it impossible to follow even with a mouse.

With melee, wargs can kite them in a way that allows you to exchange 5 skills for every 1 they get off even the melee can follow.

the 100% knockdown which allows wargs to nuke fully geared morale stacked freeps in 5-8s.

I'm not advocating to take away the warg nuke, I'm suggesting that we give it a chance to happen.

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I appreciate the discussion, but the statements I highlighted are examples of things I don't see us ever reconciling over. Appreciate you being civil in our disagreement, however.

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Originally Posted by Spilo

I appreciate the discussion, but the statements I highlighted are examples of things I don't see us ever reconciling over. Appreciate you being civil in our disagreement, however.

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Thanks, we don't have to reconcile. There are currently players who are capable of doing exactly what I'm describing. The small consolation here is that most players haven't worked out LoTRO movement to that degree and they don't know the other classes well enough to implement it.

There's also this other annoying that happens people macro chain their immediates. There's slight an animation for taking a hit and so when you get hit with 10 skills in 2s, you are literally animating taking a hit for 2s and are skill locked due to the hit animation. It also interrupts animations you might be in the middle of, effectively acting as an interrupt for non-induction skills.

In terms of chess, wargs are currently playing with 3 queens. Oh, and when you are knocked down 100% of time and they do 30k before your animation to break out of it ends, you also start with 25% of your pieces.

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Originally Posted by Vrin

Thanks, we don't have to reconcile. There are currently players who are capable of doing exactly what I'm describing. The small consolation here is that most players haven't worked out LoTRO movement to that degree and they don't know the other classes well enough to implement it.

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Just out of curiosity, what players had you in mind, and who are your toons? Perhaps we could do some Open field fights so you could provide me with some things that I could be doing better, and perhaps better in-action explanation of what you want for Sprint. Cheers.

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Originally Posted by Spilo

Only when the player is under-geared or played poorly. Even if they are dying in under 10 seconds, Sprint's only bearing on that is that I was able to catch them in the first place.

This is literally the first time I've ever heard Sprint being overpowered as an offensive skill. It makes me wonder whether we're playing the same game. It only guarantees positional if the target I'm going against has incompetent movement. It only guarantees the possibility of positional.

So, a Brand that is accessible by Freepside. A pre-pot that has been part of Creepside for years, and a Brand that has long been unattainable. Oh and pots that are also accessible to Freepside.

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That's exactly it though, it's not only when the freep is undergeared/poorly played. GOOD freeps with perfect gear and high morale are fighting Wargs with literally a 0-10% chance of winning, at which point the Warg can use one of two poorly built escapes to either run away for good, or just come back when far superior creep regen has full healed the creep for the 2.5k the freep will have regenerated.

Sprint is just something that combined with other huge advantages the Warg has to give the end result of an overpowered class, that's the problem. If sprint isn't guaranteeing or at least giving you a massive positional advantage (and I've fought you, I know it is and so do you) then you're doing something wrong (you aren't...).

Regarding the potions, I know you weren't replying to me but Creepside has had access to Fury pots for a long time, yes, but until Wargs became stupid in recent game changes, these could be overcome, that's now not the case. Regarding the stun/root pots that Freep & Creep alike both have, Creepside ones are better and allow you to pot knockdowns unlike Freepside's ones, it may seem minor but when 90% of the 1v1 CC's I take are a knockdown it gets a little tedious that my only way to break it is a 2minute CD with a 10 second animation, where most fights last about 15 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Ethrildar

That's exactly it though, it's not only when the freep is undergeared/poorly played. GOOD freeps with perfect gear and high morale are fighting Wargs with literally a 0-10% chance of winning, at which point the Warg can use one of two poorly built escapes to either run away for good, or just come back when far superior creep regen has full healed the creep for the 2.5k the freep will have regenerated.

Sprint is just something that combined with other huge advantages the Warg has to give the end result of an overpowered class, that's the problem. If sprint isn't guaranteeing or at least giving you a massive positional advantage (and I've fought you, I know it is and so do you) then you're doing something wrong (you aren't...).

Regarding the potions, I know you weren't replying to me but Creepside has had access to Fury pots for a long time, yes, but until Wargs became stupid in recent game changes, these could be overcome, that's now not the case. Regarding the stun/root pots that Freep & Creep alike both have, Creepside ones are better and allow you to pot knockdowns unlike Freepside's ones, it may seem minor but when 90% of the 1v1 CC's I take are a knockdown it gets a little tedious that my only way to break it is a 2minute CD with a 10 second animation, where most fights last about 15 seconds.

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Let's stop the Apples and Oranges comparison and try to simplify the discussion, because honestly we could debate advantages and disadvantages all day.

Skilled vs skilled comparison (in my experience):


Beorning vs Warg, hardest comparison because so few bears actually roam DPS, but those with 35-40k morale who put up a good fight.

Burglar vs Warg, Burglars usually have advantage with cooldowns, Wargs without. Whoever starts the fight from stealth usually wins.

Captain vs Warg, depends on Crit heal luck. Usually Warg advantage.

Champion vs Warg, can go either way. Warg partials and Champ crit can make the fights unpredictable.

Guardian vs Warg, Guardian DPS is a joke, almost always Warg.

Hunter vs Warg, Warg advantage but if the hunter has Raid gear, Hunter can win this.

Loremaster vs Warg, only way LM wins this is a Yellow/Blue Line spamming WL/CC with minimal DPS and out-lasting the warg. Red Line soloing is about as hard as it was during U12.

Minstrel vs Warg, same as Cappy, all depends on crits. High Morale minstrels with enough trait points can take a beating, otherwise it's usually pretty quickly:

Runekeeper vs Warg, Red Line is doable if you have 40k+ morale and are willing to use Armor of Storm, Lightning is better. If it's all out, it can go either way.

Warden vs Warg, if Warden is playing all out and has 35k+ morale, then Warden will win 90% of the time.



The problem with the above comparison is that with the state of Bestial Claws, mediocre vs mediocre is bumped further in Warg's favor, because it's easier to do competent damage. However, in my experience, fighting the best of each class has resulted in generally fair fights. To me that's where comparison must be made, and why I want to redistribute Bestial Claws (makes mediocre wargs look less competent, but doesn't hurt the overall balance), and why I am for reducing Sprint in combat Run-Speed (reduces the chance of avoiding death for Wargs). The HIPS change is the best thing that's happened to Wargs in a long time, and I think an adjustment to Sprint speed would reduce the success of cowardly gameplay even further- I just don't want it to effect my capability to deal with the sprinting and kiting abilities of other classes.

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Originally Posted by Ethrildar

Your post seemed thought-out until I read it to the end. With regards to blue hunter DPS, what class are you playing because it isn't Warden? Yellow Warden is AMAZINGLY BAD DPS, Red is steadily falling behind other classes and is incomparable to Blue Hunter DPS.

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I was saying that red warden was pretty damn OP when you were able to get -20% atk duration, Essence of Retaliation, before redline healing was reduced by 50%, unpottable bleeds, among many other things. After those things were fixed, and other classes like hunter and burg were buffed/revamped, then the warden stopped being the most OP thing in the moors. You can't say that it wasn't broken back when creeps had at most 80k morale and there are so many videos demonstrating this point.

You misread what I said about blue hunters and I don't know what that yellow warden nonsense is about. You have me mistaken for someone else.

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Originally Posted by Ethrildar

Back to the point, the slow is marginally better than the Warg slow, but the fact that Wargs have an inherent 15% speed advantage in combat over all Freeps makes that moot and also makes Wargs slow technically 10% better than Wardens slow.

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Yeah I agree with this.

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Originally Posted by Ethrildar

Wreck them in 5sec? He's playing the same game the rest of us are playing, you're a good Warg, and I'm 100% positive that 90% of your kills in pvp are wins for you in under 10 seconds. Don't pretend that you do not see this.

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If you consider that the vast majority of freeps hug GV unless if they have a raid and even then they still get rekt, aka trash, then 90% seems perfectly reasonable.
You can't equate the people in Leithiani with someone who's good. I'm not going to name names, but let's just say the generic good player would be someone of Equiinoxxe's caliber.

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Originally Posted by Senatus

I was saying that red warden was pretty damn OP when you were able to get -20% atk duration, Essence of Retaliation, before redline healing was reduced by 50%, unpottable bleeds, among many other things. After those things were fixed, and other classes like hunter and burg were buffed/revamped, then the warden stopped being the most OP thing in the moors. You can't say that it wasn't broken back when creeps had at most 80k morale and there are so many videos demonstrating this point.

You misread what I said about blue hunters and I don't know what that yellow warden nonsense is about. You have me mistaken for someone else.

If you consider that the vast majority of freeps hug GV unless if they have a raid and even then they still get rekt, aka trash, then 90% seems perfectly reasonable.
You can't equate the people in Leithiani with someone who's good. I'm not going to name names, but let's just say the generic good player would be someone of Equiinoxxe's caliber.

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Originally Posted by Senatus

....a stun, root, daze, etc. or you have ranged DPS like blue hunter....

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I may have misunderstood your post if you weren't referring to Yellow Wardens being the ranged DPS equivalent to Blue hunters and Fire RKs etc. But that's how it read (to me at least).

Warden was very overpowered yeah, it's nowhere near that now, and is actually disadvantaged versus most classes. I've not played mine much lately since I'm annihilated through Never Surrender by multiple Wargs almost every time I leave GV, soloers stll never both to attack me, and simply wait in stealth/50m away whilst calling out and chasing me if I try to leave. Not fun at all. Somewhat irrelevant to the thread though I guess.

Absolutely, 90% of Freeps (more, probably) are absoooluuutellyy awful, I mean jesus, I was leading the GV shuffle charge solo on Mini yesterday night and 15 Freeps would NOT leave GV to push 6 Creeps. The exact same can be said for Creepside though. There's a lot of balance issues at the moment but using skilled players on both sides is an unfair example, as it's the mediocre players that are right now being annihilated by mediocre Creeps that have had free Godlike DPS handed to them. This is only a problem for experienced/competent PVPers because there's no incentive to fight in a balanced way, i.e. I can easily beat most incompetent Wargs without taking much damage, but to say that even 1 in 10 of my fights on Hunter are against just one creep is not possible, it's probably more like 1 in 100, the other 99 being 2 or more versus 1.

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Originally Posted by Ethrildar

I may have misunderstood your post if you weren't referring to Yellow Wardens being the ranged DPS equivalent to Blue hunters and Fire RKs etc. But that's how it read (to me at least).

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You were taking part of the sentence out of context. The red text below applies to the statements before and after the "or". But I concede that the wording was ambiguous.

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Originally Posted by Senatus

Otherwise, you will usually be in a group with another class that can apply a stun, root, daze, etc. or you have ranged DPS like blue hunter, fire RK, LM, etc.

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Originally Posted by Ethrildar

Warden was very overpowered yeah, it's nowhere near that now, and is actually disadvantaged versus most classes. I've not played mine much lately since I'm annihilated through Never Surrender by multiple Wargs almost every time I leave GV, soloers stll never both to attack me, and simply wait in stealth/50m away whilst calling out and chasing me if I try to leave. Not fun at all. Somewhat irrelevant to the thread though I guess.

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It's not that disadvantaged really, you just can't tank as many creeps as you used to. With a large enough morale pool, you can kill any solo creep aside from defiler but only like 1% of the population can be found solo. It has gotten to the point where you simply cannot PvP without a pocket healer because of map-ins and Russian 24-mans that zerg groups 6x smaller than the raid. I've been playing fulltime creep now, and there are people who still regard the Warden class as a mystical entity that cannot be explained like it's still lvl 65 cap or something. Most creeps literally have no idea what Defiant Challenge or Never Surrender are or how self heals work.

It's only disadvantaged in the sense that a decently-geared blue hunter can dish out as much burst as a near-perfectly geared warden.

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Originally Posted by Senatus

You were taking part of the sentence out of context. The red text below applies to the statements before and after the "or". But I concede that the wording was ambiguous.



It's not that disadvantaged really, you just can't tank as many creeps as you used to. With a large enough morale pool, you can kill any solo creep aside from defiler but only like 1% of the population can be found solo. It has gotten to the point where you simply cannot PvP without a pocket healer because of map-ins and Russian 24-mans that zerg groups 6x smaller than the raid. I've been playing fulltime creep now, and there are people who still regard the Warden class as a mystical entity that cannot be explained like it's still lvl 65 cap or something. Most creeps literally have no idea what Defiant Challenge or Never Surrender are or how self heals work.

It's only disadvantaged in the sense that a decently-geared blue hunter can dish out as much burst as a near-perfectly geared warden.

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Hadn't intended to take it out of context, just point out the part I was referring to. I read "or you have DPS like..." to mean, you, as a warden have DPS equivalent to X/Y/Z. But irrelevant anyway, misunderstanding :)

I don't mind overcoming 1v1s I currently lose with skill (or a lack thereof losing me them), what I dislike is that on a perfectly (near enough) geared Freep, I have to really try to get the same outcome a 6/10 Warg/Spider can do by randomly hitting buttons and hoping for the best, with the added bonus that if they're ever at risk of losing they can just hips/sprint/burrow/call out to guarantee a win, or at worst no death, in almost every circumstance. 1% of the population being solo is the biggest issue for me, as a solo/small grouper, added to the fact that no matter what group size I can get (I don't raid, it's boring and laggy and the game cannot handle it), Creepside will bring at minimum 5x my numbers where fighting even twice the numbers is a struggle now with Wargs and skills like Toxin being so stupidly broken.

Having warg as my main for the last two years it's become painfully clear to me that it being a stealth class, winning will always get people to complain about literally every thing you do. This thread seemed to have some potential but got completely derailed. What people fail to grasp is that lotro will always have a mechanic that puts one class in advantage over the other, #wargproblems are just small fraction of the whole picture.

OK, you are a hunter and I get the frustration you might have when a warg jumps you and takes half of the morale off the bat, my advice to you is to get better at planning your fights (traps, class consumables, buffs), exit strategies and gear&trait proper, if you still lose then pray for running into a reaver who is free renown for almost any hunter at the moment. I do however get annoyed with people calling for a class revamp simply because they do not know how to win against it. Also in all honesty a hunter with top gear can kill the majority of fotm loving wargs. McSwaggis, a poster in this thread for example is among those hunters that survive the initial burst with 20/40k remaining intact and then giving you hell once he is out of the stun, it must be the only hunter I never won against without having 100% cool downs up and ready for use. (3:1 and you are in the lead, Swag!).

I have been branded as a macroer and my warg might be boasting DPS parses that are around 13k vs an elite npc, proving to be among the world's highest, according to my inquires on all the available servers I've visited, yet still a warden 4k healing tick added to double NS is impossible to burn through even if I burst through 30/40k morale. There are various ways to get around that, through an immensely time consuming kite but honestly, a solo warg has nearly no chance in hell of beating a properly played and geared warden, while almost any scrub BA or a weaver can just kite it to death with zero effort.

Weaver reflect has no effect on RKS
RK stun fest has no influence over weavers and defilers.
Yellow hunters can kite a solo warg from Grams to GV and back again, unless warg bursts through morale on stun immunities.

The list is endless, there are too many situations where one class has advantage over another, none of which warrant a class revamp and new mechanics introduced.
Warg hips has a stupidly short cool down and all the fotm warg packs had to be dealt with, so that was a well thought out change. So was hunter DF change back in the day.

The bottom line, your personal anecdotes carry very little weight when pvp balance is considered, there are hundreds of counter arguments that could be made to support the opposite, especially if you are over generalizing and forcing people to simply reply with a " L2P ".

Oh and one last thing, recent changes in freep gear account for 1/5th of my total deaths and I am hardly an escape artist, I prefer to burn all cds in order to get a kill instead of running from a 1vs1 gone bad, so the devs are areadly on the right path. Also warg numbers start falling, now that they get pew peed to death in 3-4 hits.