Boxing + Farming Should Require Multiple *Subscriptions*

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Originally Posted by Gyes

Let's drop the analogy for a bit.

Identifying combat multi-boxers is really not that hard. 6-12 characters all standing in the same spot perfectly still for hours with pets summoned on aggressive mode is painfully obvious. One active character with 11 others in tow isn't much less obvious. It should be pretty easy for the devs to implement some test for GMs to see how many characters are being controlled from a single IP address. I don't think people have LAN parties anymore, but even if they did, 6 independently controlled characters behave very differently from 5 characters set to /follow.

So let's assume for a minute that the devs could end this behavior if they chose. (Big assumption maybe - my experience in Asheron's Call for well over a decade shows how hard it is to combat a code-savvy player base and what a negative impact tolerating that behavior can have on a game.) These farmers drive the grind that you've decried before. They wear out content prematurely. They eat resources. They drive people away from the game. Is the monthly fee you'll get from these undesirables worth more than they cost? Even if they are, would you rather have a player base full of what are effectively exploiters or a player base that by and large plays by the rules?

And back to the analogy...

Start towing the most egregious offenders. The ones parked nearest the doors across a dozen spots who haven't moved in a month. Keep towing until there's no noticeable effect on the patrons showing up in cars. Ignore the ones who cruise in around closing time and leave first thing in the morning. If you ignore the problem or start offering a reasonably priced way for people to park indefinitely, your mall is going to turn into a ghost town and your parking lot will turn into a trailer park.

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All perfectly fair.

I wouldn't complain if it were banned outright. And policed harshly. I just assume there are business-related reasons for why this isn't done. And my proposal took that assumption into account.

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Originally Posted by watevaplz

I love how players blame other players (multi boxers this time) for extreme lag on the first few days of the new expansion.

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I'm beginning to regret linking this thread to the recent performance issues surrounding the Update 20 release.

The topic is valid and appropriate for discussion regardless of Update 20 or current/acute server performance issues.

If you want to insist on seeing this as "blaming other players". . . I can't stop you. But I think we're then starting to set up our high horses in that case.

Players aren't to blame. A game design and business model that not only allows it but begins to make those not taking advantage of it feel like chumps is the problem.

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Originally Posted by Hurin

I'm beginning to regret linking this thread to the recent performance issues surrounding the Update 20 release.

The topic is valid and appropriate for discussion regardless of Update 20 or current/acute server performance issues.

If you want to insist on seeing this as "blaming other players". . . I can't stop you. But I think we're then starting to set up our high horses in that case.

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There are many threads about blaming sets of players from farming Lhan Rhuven now "Multiboxers" causing the "Server performance issues". I don't feel this "Server Performance Issue" as of right now.

If you can't look at Turbine's decision to get rid of other servers and stacking everyone in the one's left and a server system that is not properly maintained then I can't stop you.

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Originally Posted by watevaplz

There are many threads about blaming sets of players from farming Lhan Rhuven now "Multiboxers" causing the "Server performance issues". I don't feel this "Server Performance Issue" as of right now.

If you can't look at Turbine's decision to get rid of other servers and stacking everyone in the one's left and a server system that is not properly maintained then I can't stop you.

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Thanks for dropping by.

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Originally Posted by nelar

I think it depends heavily on what you mean by "farming". If a multi-boxer is taking all their toons into instances, skirmishes, etc., then they all have to be geared up. That means you aren't going to be handing everything all the toons collect to a single main character, so you can't really farm skirmishes/instances purely for your main.

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You couldn't be more wrong on that point. A simple multibox follow group can get 3x, 6x, 12x, or 24x the rewards if the main character can solo. It is even easier if the boxer has the software to do more than just follow. All of those rewards can be used to help just the main account or dispersed however seen fit.

Also, if someone is serious about boxing then they can do more afk things than 'shaking the mouse' to keep accounts active. There are almost no limits to what people can and what some will do.

Tonight someone on Arkenstone pointed out a foolproof way to spot characters being run unattended using a bot, hardware macro, etc.

They're the ones sitting in the res circle spamming AoE attacks. :)

(I am excluding the U20 farm trains from these thoughts, as they are a different problem)

Restricting this to subs can simply be solved by running the client on multiple old PCs or virtual machines. A farm train does not care about lag or low detail level.
One could of course then try to restrict the number of clients per IP, but this might create problems with e.g. premium player families or friends playing together.
I guess even this would not be effective, as I am quite sure that anti-gold seller measures already include IP tracking, so those need multiple (dynamic) IPs anyway.

*IF* it is decided to do something against botters, we need automated behavioral analysis that supports human moderation. This will of course mean work.
In addition we need the wish to do something and a rule that makes it clear that something will be done.

One could e.g. imagine a server script that extracts the coordinates of every LM and Cpt every 5 minutes and delivers those that did not change their position in that time.
Then this is sorted for position and as soon as there is clustering of more than N chars for M minutes a GM is notified and checks.

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Originally Posted by thinx

Restricting this to subs can simply be solved by running the client on multiple old PCs or virtual machines. A farm train does not care about lag or low detail level.

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Sorry. I can't actually make sense of this. Moving an account to a separate host has no bearing on whether it is seen as subscribed or not.

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One could of course then try to restrict the number of clients per IP, but this might create problems with e.g. premium player families or friends playing together.
I guess even this would not be effective, as I am quite sure that anti-gold seller measures already include IP tracking, so those need multiple (dynamic) IPs anyway.

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I suppose the truly dedicated gold farmer(s) or boxer could procure multiple ISP connections or perhaps multiple globally routed IPs on a corporate network and run each client from its own globally routed IP.* But, all the currently favored boxing software out there that allows for simultaneous "broadcasting" of each command to multiple game clients that make boxing feasible and minimally enjoyable for the average person would cease to work (they depend on all game clients running on same host). A multi-homed host with multiple globally routed IPs would also work if the game clients could be made to bind to each available IP on the host. But, regardless, this would move the level of complexity for getting a single-person farming "team" built from the trivial to the rather exotic. And thus, it's potentially worthwhile on that basis alone.

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*IF* it is decided to do something against botters, we need automated behavioral analysis that supports human moderation. This will of course mean work.
In addition we need the wish to do something and a rule that makes it clear that something will be done.

One could e.g. imagine a server script that extracts the coordinates of every LM and Cpt every 5 minutes and delivers those that did not change their position in that time.
Then this is sorted for position and as soon as there is clustering of more than N chars for M minutes a GM is notified and checks.

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It could actually be much simpler. . .

1. Pull list of fellowships.
2. Filter for fellowships where all members are on same IP.
3. Perhaps filter for class types (LMs, perhaps also Cappies).
4. Filter for subscription yes/no.
5. GM teleports for a quick invisible visit.
6. Policy is implemented.

Essentially, they would be carrying out the same "are you AFK?" /tell checks. But in this case, checking for subscription status rather than AFK. . . with some server telemetry to guide them to likely violators of the policy rather than random tips from users.

--H

*As you probably know, a router performing NAT provides non-world routable IP addresses for hosts behind it. But, all those hosts appear to be coming from the same globally routed IP to the rest of the internet (and thus LotRO's servers). NAT isn't a means of circumventing IP restrictions.

Most controversial points have been clarified by Hurin. I think this proposal is interesting and certainly I don't see a problem with consider it.

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Originally Posted by Hurin

I haven't thought all this through yet. So I'll try to be reasonable and rational when someone inevitably shoots it full of holes.

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Quick Version: Boxers found to be farming on accounts that lack a subscription should be banned from the game for one month or until subscriptions for those accounts are purchased.

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THE PROBLEM
There seems to be a growing consensus that mutli-boxing farmers are substantially contributing to server performance issues. Especially in the new areas recently.

First, for this to make any sense, we need to stipulate that this hunch is actually accurate.


DEFINING TERMS
Multi-box Farming means one person using a certain type of software to efficiently control multiple game clients at once. Usually, this takes the form of a fellowship or raid of six or twelve separate accounts, all controlled by one actual player/customer. That fellowship or raid is then parked in a lucrative spot in the game where that one person then absorbs 6x or 12x the loot (gold, rep items, solvents, lootboxes, whatever). All, of course, while that one player/customer takes up 6x or 12x the server and network resources.

How bad could the problem be? Well, more and more people seem to be doing it. And each person who does it represents 6x or 12x the load on SSG's datacenter resources.


WHY IS IT ALLOWED? SHOULD IT BE?
Why does SSG put up with it? Perhaps because there are enough of them, and they pay just enough to make them a segment of the population that they can't just dismiss outright. I suspect that they do occasionally drop money here and there, for a quest pack, for more bag storage, etc. Perhaps for GoTV or BoTV. Those, of course, who aren't grinding out the LP for it.

So, SSG allows it. So long as someone is at the console and able to answer a /tell from a GM that is intended to determine whether they are AFK/botting or not. Let's stipulate that as well.


SOLUTION/COMPROMISE? - BOXING/FARMING RIGHTS AS FEATURE OF FULL SUBSCRIPTION
So. . . what's to be done? How about, if someone is going to leverage the game and its rules to this degree in order to acquire 6x/12x the rewards for 1x the effort (as regular players tend to get 1x rewards for 1x the effort), SSG decides that boxers should at least pay for a monthly subscription for each of those accounts participating in this activity?

If a boxer is found to be farming with a fellowship or raid, and a quick check of the accounts involved show no subscription, boot them from the game for a month, or until a subscription is paid for. . . let those getting the most from the game likewise contribute to its success and future upgrades. Perhaps some day even an overhauled engine and improved servers more able to withstand all the boxing!

Heck, this would even incentivize the GMs to find unsubscribed boxers/farmers. It would essentially put a bounty on their heads. :p

Disclaimer: A lot of people may remember me as that curmudgeon who is always talking about the integrity of the game and standing athwart the ever steepening slope towards pay-to-win. Is this essentially a "pay-to-win" proposal? To some degree, perhaps. Though I would argue there is a qualitative difference between buying something outright in the Store and instead leveraging the existing game technology (and your own ingenuity) to play the game in uber-efficiency mode (which I think is how most non-botting boxers see what they're doing).

--H

P.S. Yes, I'm also the guy who says that everyone should keep their noses out of everyone else's business. I have tried to keep notions of "fairness" or envy out of this post. But, well, with the game as a whole suffering as --we think-- a result of all the boxing/farming, it makes a certain amount of sense for SSG to adjust their policies towards boxing/farming in a way that doesn't alienate them or remove them altogether, while receiving from them the financial support required to accommodate them within the game. Thus, an ongoing subscription.

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With no disrespect to you, try to ban my 5 paying accounts. yes I play them all at once and yes they farm but I think you need to understand a difference. I do not go AFK like others. I play them the entire time. It helps me complete content without asking others for help. Allows me to play by myself. Again try to ban them. I actually think it will turn out very well for SSG hahaha nope it won't work out that way

Also, it has been part of the game for years. Its part of the client itself. and please do explain to me how 6 characters logged in via on PC is any different than 6 players logged in from around the world?
Exactly my point there is no change so whats your motive other than being a pain for those playing? I understand AFK ban's for sure go right ahead with that but not players like myself who play multiple at the same time without any ever going afk

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Originally Posted by Laerien

Most controversial points have been clarified by Hurin. I think this proposal is interesting and certainly I don't see a problem with consider it.

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Yeah it be a great idea as long as SSG reimbursed the Blessings Of Valar, Gifts Of Valar and BoV U to all the players that bought it and multiboxing.

Since mule accounts also uses "bandwidth" while it is logged in and transferring items to your main why not charge them as well for VIP in a F2P game.

It will not happen... yeah thought so. They should really consider it since if they can't provide a refund on said services that was suppose to be "free". A simple class A lawsuit will straighten things up. Murica right?

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Originally Posted by watevaplz

Yeah it be a great idea as long as SSG reimbursed the Blessings Of Valar, Gifts Of Valar and BoV U to all the players that bought it and multiboxing.

Since mule accounts also uses "bandwidth" while it is logged in and transferring items to your main why not charge them as well for VIP in a F2P game.

It will not happen... yeah thought so. They should really consider it since if they can't provide a refund on said services that was suppose to be "free". A simple class A lawsuit will straighten things up. Murica right?

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Thank you. Yes a simple class A will happen if they start banning boxers. That is not a threat but a fact

I think we are getting out of the real topic.

If the question is relative to "lag" or "bandwidth" why not fix the source of the problem... the LOTRO servers. Hey they should update that thing, it makes a lot of sense since they did close down a couple servers and migrate lots of players. All cramped up like sardines. Blaming it on players that are "multi-boxing" in an F2P game where anyone else can make a new free account every minute and log in and take your "precious" bandwidth... Doesn't make sense.

Multi-boxing is all legal according to Turbine aka SSG and this includes farming as well as long as one doesn't use a bot or macros.

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Originally Posted by Protos_Angelus

I found one hole. The term is No-Lifer. If anyone is willing to go to such lengths over a game, then that means he transcended the need for social contact and can only be described as such. A Zombie.

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Or a gold farmer/seller,which seem to have reappeared.

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Originally Posted by watevaplz

Yeah it be a great idea as long as SSG reimbursed the Blessings Of Valar, Gifts Of Valar and BoV U to all the players that bought it and multiboxing.

Since mule accounts also uses "bandwidth" while it is logged in and transferring items to your main why not charge them as well for VIP in a F2P game.

It will not happen... yeah thought so. They should really consider it since if they can't provide a refund on said services that was suppose to be "free". A simple class A lawsuit will straighten things up. Murica right?

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Please, I'm aware that many who abuse Valars don buy them with real money, so give that bone to other dog (spanish saying). I said, it can be taken into cosideration; also the "use bandwitdth" fallacy has been cleared, this thread is about farming not alts, not bands, not even multiboxing.

I think a more peaceful solution would be to have a new server where mutiboxing is discouraged. Players may pay a fee to transfer, a premium for the luxury of leaving the multiboxers behind and for playing on a new server with low population. With the revenue, SSG may add more staff who can tackle the ticket backlogs, including reports of afk farmers.

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Originally Posted by Laerien

Please, I'm aware that many who abuse Valars don buy them with real money, so give that bone to other dog (spanish saying). I said, it can be taken into cosideration; also the "use bandwitdth" fallacy has been cleared, this thread is about farming not alts, not bands, not even multiboxing.

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Majority of players who wants to get back in game and want to catch up buy valars. It makes more sense since they get the opportunity to get loot more efficiently than playing one character. I know I did bought some and I'm vip


So everything points to farming which is allowed in game. So everything else should not even be put into consideration. Or do you want me to give that bone to another dog (spanish saying) ?

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Originally Posted by Hurin

I suppose the truly dedicated gold farmer(s) or boxer could procure multiple ISP connections or perhaps multiple globally routed IPs on a corporate network and run each client from its own globally routed IP.* But, all the currently favored boxing software out there that allows for simultaneous "broadcasting" of each command to multiple game clients that make boxing feasible and minimally enjoyable for the average person would cease to work (they depend on all game clients running on same host). A multi-homed host with multiple globally routed IPs would also work if the game clients could be made to bind to each available IP on the host. But, regardless, this would move the level of complexity for getting a single-person farming "team" built from the trivial to the rather exotic. And thus, it's potentially worthwhile on that basis alone.

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Second network card for internal communication (not really needed), editing a routing table, any kind of VPN/similar. Not that exotic.
There is just one real question: What is behind gold farming. If this is more than a few people getting some private money, then technical possibilities increase massively. After all the very same infrastructure can be used for a lot of games.

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Originally Posted by Hurin

It could actually be much simpler. . .

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Or opinions on "simpler" differ. I would say same effort. A script that needs manual control by a GM.

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Originally Posted by greatlord365

With no disrespect to you, try to ban my 5 paying accounts. yes I play them all at once and yes they farm but I think you need to understand a difference. I do not go AFK like others. I play them the entire time. It helps me complete content without asking others for help. Allows me to play by myself. Again try to ban them.

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Why are you concerned? If you are both paying and you play them actively, this thread doesn't even apply to you.

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Also, it has been part of the game for years. Its part of the client itself. and please do explain to me how 6 characters logged in via on PC is any different than 6 players logged in from around the world?

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Do you mean aside from the fact that there is one person vs six people? Because, that's sorta the whole point and rationale.

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Originally Posted by watevaplz

Yeah it be a great idea as long as SSG reimbursed the Blessings Of Valar, Gifts Of Valar and BoV U to all the players that bought it and multiboxing.

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Those characters and the levels acquired aren't being taken away from you. You'll still have them and the levels/benefits provided by the BoV and GoV. If, however, the only reason you purchased them (however you did so) was to spawn farm for hours on end, then it's not unreasonable for SSG to modify its business model to compensate for the fact that one person is indefinitely taking up six or twelve times the resources of single users.

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Since mule accounts also uses "bandwidth" while it is logged in and transferring items to your main why not charge them as well for VIP in a F2P game.

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Is this a serious question? Because the answer is obvious. A mule is logged in for minutes. A member of a boxer/farm-team is logged in for hours at a time alongside six/twelve others belonging to the same person.

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It will not happen... yeah thought so. They should really consider it since if they can't provide a refund on said services that was suppose to be "free". A simple class A lawsuit will straighten things up. Murica right?

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Originally Posted by greatlord365

Thank you. Yes a simple class A will happen if they start banning boxers. That is not a threat but a fact

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That lawsuit would end just as soon as counsel read the ToS that we all agree to as soon as we begin playing. And every time thereafter.

Question: Is a lawsuit also warranted if SSG were to address boxing/farms by putting the loot system back the way it was? Or modifying LM/CAP pets? If not, why not?

--H

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Originally Posted by thinx

Second network card for internal communication (not really needed), editing a routing table, any kind of VPN/similar. Not that exotic.
There is just one real question: What is behind gold farming. If this is more than a few people getting some private money, then technical possibilities increase massively. After all the very same infrastructure can be used for a lot of games.

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It's certainly exotic to get six or twelve different world routable IPs arriving on the same multi-homed host, then having each client bind to a unique world routable IP, and then with all that in place, you might find that existing boxing software will still work.

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Originally Posted by watevaplz

Majority of players who wants to get back in game and want to catch up buy valars. It makes more sense since they get the opportunity to get loot more efficiently than playing one character. I know I did bought some and I'm vip

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Sorry, not in my experience. Valars are another commodity that players use to buy gold. However, most buy/sell Valar packages are resellers who jump across the servers buying cheap, thanks to free shared storage transfers.

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So everything points to farming which is allowed in game. So everything else should not even be put into consideration. Or do you want me to give that bone to another dog (spanish saying) ?

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What's put into consideration is in SSG side. They can say what is allowed or not; they can decide when a player is just farming for rep items or exploiting the system. The question is, how a player farming with several (not one, not two) AFK accounts on follow looks like.
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Bottom line, I said this can be taken into consideration. You seem to miss your targets. I'm not the OP :rolleyes:

How about we remove the aggressive pet stance? It can be handy for slayer deeding your way through low level zones, but it's not critical to the class. The game is already set up so that players don't start attacking mobs that walk up to them until you click to attack, because (I assume) it would let them afk-farm stuff, which is the very problem we have here. I would tend to favor going back to not sharing loot, but this is another idea. I prefer ideas that don't tie up GMs who already have too many things to deal with as it is.

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Originally Posted by Hurin

Why are you concerned? If you are both paying and you play them actively, this thread doesn't even apply to you.


Do you mean aside from the fact that there is one person vs six people? Because, that's sorta the whole point and rationale.


Those characters and the levels acquired aren't being taken away from you. You'll still have them and the levels/benefits provided by the BoV and GoV. If, however, the only reason you purchased them (however you did so) was to spawn farm for hours on end, then it's not unreasonable for SSG to modify its business model to compensate for the fact that one person is indefinitely taking up six or twelve times the resources of single users.

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I said paying accounts not VIP. Also what's the difference of my accounts logged in vs your one account and a few friends? Yea I farm gold and resources just like everyone else does VIP or not. I don't go AFK ever so I don't understand your point in taking away boxing as the punishment for the idiots that AFK farm. Who is to say that my five or whatever characters that have had money spent on them are any less important than other people's characters? If you are saying that because I have mine logged in at the same time I'm less important and should pay some sort of punishment ( like a subscription ) then that's just absurd. Sounds to me that you just want to be a pain for everyone. I pay and play just like everyone else on the game. And it doesn't even matter if I pay or not on them as a VIP it's the simple fact that you are trying to state that people with only one account is more important. Any one of my accounts is just as important as anybody else. What's the difference? Please do explain this to me. If it helps you sleep better at night I will just go buy 6 computers and play each one at the same time on different internet connections and i will wait for the day for SSG to strip that from me. I make not different impact on the game than somebody else playing. Also please display where in the TOS does it state that I can not play all my accounts at one time? Please show me I would really appreciate it.

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Originally Posted by greatlord365

I said paying accounts not VIP. Also what's the difference of my accounts logged in vs your one account and a few friends? Yea I farm gold and resources just like everyone else does VIP or not.I don't go AFK ever so I don't understand your point in taking away boxing as the punishment for the idiots that AFK farm. Who is to say that my five or whatever characters that have had money spent on them are any less important than other people's characters? If you are saying that because I have mine logged in at the same time I'm less important and should pay some sort of punishment ( like a subscription ) then that's just absurd. Sounds to me that you just want to be a pain for everyone. I pay and play just like everyone else on the game. And it doesn't even matter if I pay or not on them as a VIP it's the simple fact that you are trying to state that people with only one account is more important. Any one of my accounts is just as important as anybody else. What's the difference? Please do explain this to me. If it helps you sleep better at night I will just go buy 6 computers and play each one at the same time on different internet connections and i will wait for the day for SSG to strip that from me. I make not different impact on the game than somebody else playing.

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You with six clients = 1 person enjoying the game.
Six people with one client each = 6 people enjoying the game.

It's not a question of "single players being more important". . . it's a simple question of them being six people and you being one. "Importance" doesn't enter into it.

As already stated. . .

The overall goal is to make sure that this situation. . .

one player x 1 client
vs
one player x 6 clients

Doesn't scale out to

600 players x 1 client = 600 clients
100 players x 6 clients = 600 clients
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= 100 players using 50% of SSG's resources

If I walk onto a subway car and spread my belongings across six seats during rush hour, it takes a certain mentality to then yell at the people giving me the stink eye. And that analogy doesn't even take into account that I'm (somehow) using those six seats to generate something of benefit to me.

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Also please display where in the TOS does it state that I can not play all my accounts at one time? Please show me I would really appreciate it.

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You misunderstand. The ToS says that they can pretty much change anything whenever they damn well please. But, again, would you also have grounds for a lawsuit if they change the loot system to make boxer/farming unfeasible? How about removal of LM/CAP pet aggressive mode (though there would be easy work-arounds for that)?

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Originally Posted by greatlord365

I said paying accounts not VIP. Also what's the difference of my accounts logged in vs your one account and a few friends? Yea I farm gold and resources just like everyone else does VIP or not. I don't go AFK ever so I don't understand your point in taking away boxing as the punishment for the idiots that AFK farm. Who is to say that my five or whatever characters that have had money spent on them are any less important than other people's characters? If you are saying that because I have mine logged in at the same time I'm less important and should pay some sort of punishment ( like a subscription ) then that's just absurd. Sounds to me that you just want to be a pain for everyone. I pay and play just like everyone else on the game. And it doesn't even matter if I pay or not on them as a VIP it's the simple fact that you are trying to state that people with only one account is more important. Any one of my accounts is just as important as anybody else. What's the difference? Please do explain this to me. If it helps you sleep better at night I will just go buy 6 computers and play each one at the same time on different internet connections and i will wait for the day for SSG to strip that from me. I make not different impact on the game than somebody else playing. Also please display where in the TOS does it state that I can not play all my accounts at one time? Please show me I would really appreciate it.

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There's basically no difference between unattended and attended multiboxing when it comes to your impact on the game. You still use 6 times as many resources per capita. Your actions drive the devs to make the grind even worse than it already is. The point of the thread was to make you financially responsible for the consequences of your actions, which it seems to me you are completely oblivious of. So tell me, do you pay at least 6 times as much as your average user? Since you aren't subbing, I'm going to guess the answer is no.