@Vastin: Incoming damage in North Ithilien and Wastes is off the hook

I think the DoT is out of control on all levels for the mobs. My father and I have given up doing most of the level 120 resource instance scourges and don't do anything more than the bare minimum we can get away with in the instance since the last update because the DoTs are killing us faster than we can heal. I'm a blue line hunter with all the press onward/strength of the earth improvements I can get, running in endurance so I get the quickshot heal. He's a red or yellow line RK with just enough blue to heal (exact line depends on his mood).

Last night Deep Wound from the rangers was doing over 9k damage every 2 seconds to me in Oinsbridge. At one point, I just keeled over due to "misadventure." Any of the drakes in Withered Heath or Thikul-Gundu do massive damage as well, though I didn't see the name of the DoT they were applying. Prior to the last update this week, we had no issues clearing the instances, including the scourges, together. The other night we were fighting a scourge in Thikul-Gundu and Dad planted a healing rock, and stood on it while trying to stun the scourge that is in the back of the instance (not the dwarf with the grims) and he died in seconds. The one in Oinsbridge that spawns in the back has a poison debuff that did us both in because I didn't realize it was killing us so fast and didn't think to remove it until it was too late, but at the time I thought it was a fluke. But I've since come to find out it's not - these mobs have been hitting a lot harder than they had been last week. However the Melee/ranged that don't throw DoTs have no issue. The weathered heath scourge that spawns by the boss, or the troll in glimmerdeep aren't a problem for us to take on. It seems to be only the mobs that frequently use DoTs.

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Originally Posted by Vastin

Yes, DOT scaling is definitely a potential issue we're looking at now. Many of the old dots in the game had badly broken scaling systems that had seen them devolve into almost pointless effects, but when I linked them to the modern progressions some of them may have gone too high.

If you throw the names of some mosters/dots that seem especially egregious it'll help us pinpoint what ranges the problem is worst at and rescale it more accurately. I've been playing through quite a bit of content myself looking for them, but mostly in the lower level ranges, and not as much in the 60-100 ranges which is where I think the problem is more significant at the moment.

-Vastin

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The frost grims in the Withered Heath resource instance have had some strange behavior. They have an attack which is a visual+audio effect of a tornado/twister paired with 3 or 4 hits that come very quickly. The first few days the instance was available this was doing ~10k per hit and taking my Hunter (then mostly in the Strongholds rep dps gear, with ~60k hp) well under half health from full, making for some quite tense situations. The next week (after a patch I think), this attack was doing maybe 200 morale per hit and was totally ignorable. A few days ago this was doing maybe ~5k per hit, now with my hunter at ~80k morale after upgrading all left side gear + off-hand + a few right side pieces with a mix of Expedition jewelry and a few pieces from the Adventurer's quartermaster). Seems to be in pretty much the right place at the moment if you're aiming for single pulls to be easily survivable for dps classes, but since it's bounced around a lot not sure if there are further changes planned. It was particularly weird to see the damage change by a factor of 10 down and then back up in a pretty short timespan.

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Originally Posted by Vastin

Yes, DOT scaling is definitely a potential issue we're looking at now. Many of the old dots in the game had badly broken scaling systems that had seen them devolve into almost pointless effects, but when I linked them to the modern progressions some of them may have gone too high.

If you throw the names of some mosters/dots that seem especially egregious it'll help us pinpoint what ranges the problem is worst at and rescale it more accurately. I've been playing through quite a bit of content myself looking for them, but mostly in the lower level ranges, and not as much in the 60-100 ranges which is where I think the problem is more significant at the moment.

-Vastin

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(everything in east rohan has 1-2k per tick bleeds, here's a few: )

Wold Ruffian
Wold Salamander
Wold Warg

(these things in wildermore have very high damage: )

Frost Grim (frost damage)
Snowy Grim (frost damage)
Snow-stalker (frost damage)

(these in wildermore have very high bleeds: )

Wild Hill-goat

Here, some people report that the little ice dragons in the Black Book 8.7 instance "The First Promise instance" do really nasty damage.
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...=1#post7888231

The damage seems to come from their ice aura - maybe it is affected and hits too hard now?

Also, I questet in the Stormwall ruins yesterday. There are those little fire dragons that are supposed to have a similar fire aura. But it is bugged and only hurts themselves. Two weeks ago, they burned happily, and it took them some time time to die. Yesterday, they spawned and were killed by their aura within seconds.

After the stat changes I created 6 new High Elf toons. Lore-master, Rune-keeper, Minstrel, Hunter, Champion, and Captain. I am currently playing them through The Shire. The bleeds the brigand archers and goblins give ticks incredibly high damage to all classes that get them applied, even at level 17/18. I watched my LM (since she has a pet that can do bulk of the fighting so I can observe) tick down nearly 700 of the 900 morale she has before I removed it using her cure skill, just to see how bad it was. This is making survivor titles a challenge, those bleeds stacked would eat any class alive, and lord help you if you have no cure skill and no pots when facing it.

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Originally Posted by Vastin

Yes, DOT scaling is definitely a potential issue we're looking at now. Many of the old dots in the game had badly broken scaling systems that had seen them devolve into almost pointless effects, but when I linked them to the modern progressions some of them may have gone too high.

If you throw the names of some mosters/dots that seem especially egregious it'll help us pinpoint what ranges the problem is worst at and rescale it more accurately. I've been playing through quite a bit of content myself looking for them, but mostly in the lower level ranges, and not as much in the 60-100 ranges which is where I think the problem is more significant at the moment.

-Vastin

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Maybe in particular there are issues with dot scaling in old content. However, i think there is a clear issue with DoTs at higher levels. Well, not issue really. I noticed two things. First, Caverns of thrumfall dots are incredibly punishing to the point melee can't compete to ranged. The fire dots are hard to overcome. Second, when I run crafting instances with the spider things (can't remember the location name but it's called scurrying spiders), there are ranged mobs that apply DoTs. I could pull possibly all mobs on my champ and clean up. However, if those ranged mobs apply more DoTs than i can clear, i'm toast. Morale pot and Fight on aren't enough to outheal those dots.

Take those examples with examples in this thread and you get a trend. DoTs are way more potent than was intended (in solo/landscape content).

The hopeful endgame raider in me was actually hoping this was WaI because pot clearing was actually super important now. We need more simple counterable mechanics that punish those who don't pay attention and rewards those that do. I would ask that if you lower DoT damage, please consider continuing to make DoTs at endgame (especially at group content level) first and foremost removable (i'm talking about you etterfang fire dot!!!), and second significant enough not to be ignored even with heals (which many currently are significant enough to require healers to yell "Figs, pot that wound!!").

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Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth

Maybe in particular there are issues with dot scaling in old content. However, i think there is a clear issue with DoTs at higher levels. Well, not issue really. I noticed two things. First, Caverns of thrumfall dots are incredibly punishing to the point melee can't compete to ranged. The fire dots are hard to overcome. Second, when I run crafting instances with the spider things (can't remember the location name but it's called scurrying spiders), there are ranged mobs that apply DoTs. I could pull possibly all mobs on my champ and clean up. However, if those ranged mobs apply more DoTs than i can clear, i'm toast. Morale pot and Fight on aren't enough to outheal those dots.

Take those examples with examples in this thread and you get a trend. DoTs are way more potent than was intended (in solo/landscape content).

The hopeful endgame raider in me was actually hoping this was WaI because pot clearing was actually super important now. We need more simple counterable mechanics that punish those who don't pay attention and rewards those that do. I would ask that if you lower DoT damage, please consider continuing to make DoTs at endgame (especially at group content level) first and foremost removable (i'm talking about you etterfang fire dot!!!), and second significant enough not to be ignored even with heals (which many currently are significant enough to require healers to yell "Figs, pot that wound!!").

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I agree. If dots can be removed, its okay if their damage is very high (like in, will kill you within 15sec). If the dots cant be removed, it shouldnt be that strong.

@Vastin.

Please do not nerf removable DoTs. About every class has a cleanse and everybody can buy wound/fear/poison/disease-draughts. Let a “Deep Wound” be a deep wound and let people figure out how to handle it.

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Originally Posted by Onyi

@Vastin.

Please do not nerf removable DoTs. About every class has a cleanse and everybody can buy wound/fear/poison/disease-draughts. Let a “Deep Wound” be a deep wound and let people figure out how to handle it.

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And those have cooldown. Dying because you get multiple DoTs in fast succession and all the removals are on cooldown or have lengthy inductions isn't balanced.

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Originally Posted by Oelle

I agree. If dots can be removed, its okay if their damage is very high (like in, will kill you within 15sec). If the dots cant be removed, it shouldnt be that strong.

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If the dots can't be removed, and it's not that strong, then it's a relatively pointless mechanic only ensuring the content can't be completed without some sort of heals. I would say if they can't be removed, make them something that can be avoided. one of the dots is a good example in caverns, the one that you only receive if you're out in the open.

I said it before and will say again: Vastin, if you are so hell-bent on testing out your experiments on live, put in a level range isolation table. One where a given ranges can be switched to use the system as it were before you started messing with it. You clearly do not have the resources to do proper QA for these sweeping changes across entire level range. Even better, you should have left old content/level ranges on live servers alone.

On the subject of dots and pots: Keeping a stack of every kind of pot has always been an instance thing. There are instances where people got to watch their dots and do stuff about them. There are hard areas like Garth Agarwen, Agamaur, Limlight Gorge etc. You go to fight there, you expect a beating. But if one has to use a pot on every on-level normal, that is simply broken. Those dots can be reapplied a second after potting, and they have 30 sec cooldowns. So if you pull 2 mobs, you are guaranteed dead even with pots. Thats two normals, not sig or elite. Pots only stack to 50, and not everyone has a pocket scholar alt with 8 years worth of stashed components.

If some people are so hungry for punishment, go grab a t2c raid solo and enjoy getting reamed in every fashion possible. Leave the landscape alone. A LOT of people come to LotRO to feel like the heros in the books/movies. Like Aragorn who faced off 5 Nazgul at Weathertop. Like Frodo who endured for days after being stabbed by Morgul blade of the Witch King himself. Not a game where two on-level bandits can be a no-win fight, and a poke from a deer can take you out in 20 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Gorikon

Also, I questet in the Stormwall ruins yesterday. There are those little fire dragons that are supposed to have a similar fire aura. But it is bugged and only hurts themselves. Two weeks ago, they burned happily, and it took them some time time to die. Yesterday, they spawned and were killed by their aura within seconds.

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Was deeding in Talath Urui a few days ago and I kept getting messages in the chat log that Fire Drakelings had been defeated, but never actually saw them. I'm guessing the same thing was happening here and they were being insta-killed by their own aura.

They are being affected by their own fire aura. This has been happening since I think a few patches ago. It's not an insta-kill, but it doesn't take many ticks.

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Originally Posted by scorrp10

I said it before and will say again: Vastin, if you are so hell-bent on testing out your experiments on live, put in a level range isolation table. One where a given ranges can be switched to use the system as it were before you started messing with it. You clearly do not have the resources to do proper QA for these sweeping changes across entire level range. Even better, you should have left old content/level ranges on live servers alone.

On the subject of dots and pots: Keeping a stack of every kind of pot has always been an instance thing. There are instances where people got to watch their dots and do stuff about them. There are hard areas like Garth Agarwen, Agamaur, Limlight Gorge etc. You go to fight there, you expect a beating. But if one has to use a pot on every on-level normal, that is simply broken. Those dots can be reapplied a second after potting, and they have 30 sec cooldowns. So if you pull 2 mobs, you are guaranteed dead even with pots. Thats two normals, not sig or elite. Pots only stack to 50, and not everyone has a pocket scholar alt with 8 years worth of stashed components.

If some people are so hungry for punishment, go grab a t2c raid solo and enjoy getting reamed in every fashion possible. Leave the landscape alone. A LOT of people come to LotRO to feel like the heros in the books/movies. Like Aragorn who faced off 5 Nazgul at Weathertop. Like Frodo who endured for days after being stabbed by Morgul blade of the Witch King himself. Not a game where two on-level bandits can be a no-win fight, and a poke from a deer can take you out in 20 seconds.

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You imply he even has the skills necessary to do such sledgehammer changes across the board, which I highly doubt.

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Originally Posted by Vastin

Yes, DOT scaling is definitely a potential issue we're looking at now. Many of the old dots in the game had badly broken scaling systems that had seen them devolve into almost pointless effects, but when I linked them to the modern progressions some of them may have gone too high.

If you throw the names of some mosters/dots that seem especially egregious it'll help us pinpoint what ranges the problem is worst at and rescale it more accurately. I've been playing through quite a bit of content myself looking for them, but mostly in the lower level ranges, and not as much in the 60-100 ranges which is where I think the problem is more significant at the moment.

-Vastin

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It seems to be all dots. Seems like they are doing about 10x more than they should be. 1 bleed effect will kill you if left unchecked. Even after you cleanse it you can get it again and with your ability on CD you will die.

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Originally Posted by Vastin

If you throw the names of some monsters/dots that seem especially egregious it'll help us pinpoint what ranges the problem is worst at and rescale it more accurately. I've been playing through quite a bit of content myself looking for them, but mostly in the lower level ranges, and not as much in the 60-100 ranges which is where I think the problem is more significant at the moment.

-Vastin

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Here is my recent experience with this. My main character (Burg, just turned 120) went into the Stormwall area to complete the Assist the Stormwall quest. The drakes and burning worms in that canyon area were doing incredibly powerful fire DoTs that nearly killed me (so rapidly!! whoa!) several times and eventually did kill me once. Same thing happened in Stormwall proper, although I had learned by then to give those beasties wide berth via stealth. Finally, in the solo Stormwall instance I couldn't survive past the opening attack from the two worms and their DoTs. Upon retreating of course I found myself on a hilltop very very far away, which was demoralizing. When I go back, I will definitely bring additional potions and stuff, but the overall experience felt really far out of the norm (seriously, the DoT was so quick which is hard when potions/buffs are on cool down). I had been in that same canyon area last week just exploring and managed it just fine.

Also in Thikil-gundu Resource instance both Scourges of Thikil-gundu (dwarf Hladek and orc ranger, don't remember his name, but it starts with L) have DoTs (not Hladek himself, but grims what he summons) what deal a lot of damage. And they don't have such damage before last update. Orc's fire DoT have ~18K damage with every hit

Vastin would love another update. This being looked at? DOTS are out of control.

LVL 120 Hunter doing quests in Lang Rhuven to finish off rep and meta for the wastes - I currently have 125k morale, resistance 36k for 14%, PMit 101k for 35%, and TMit 63k for 26% <-- vs lvl 120 mobs.


The (lvl 105) Khundolar Archer scored a hit with Deep Wound for 12,283 Common damage to Morale.

10 ticks and I'm a goner - fortunately I don't let it get that far, but if I get 2 of those on me I don't have much time to clear w/pots and purge poison - and have to hope they're not on CD

Add:

The (lvl 105) Khundolar Archer scored a hit with Poison for 6,898 Common damage to Morale.

into the mix and things get dicey really fast.

Granted they are Elite Masters, but mobs 15 lvls below me...

Anybody even trying this on level truly better have a full fellowship with them (as intended) - but it's still going to be rough going if they're not well geared.

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Originally Posted by Oelle

yea... there for sure is an issue.
Just tried playing the final part of the current epic book with my hunter. previous three chars had no issues there, but my hunter dies within seconds, if drakelings are near to him. they hit for roughly 200-600, but their aura deals roughly 5000 damage per second... ###?

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Yes I had issues with my Bear on that too didn't have it with my other toons... had to go to tanking bear to survive.

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Originally Posted by DanteIL

Here is my recent experience with this. My main character (Burg, just turned 120) went into the Stormwall area to complete the Assist the Stormwall quest. The drakes and burning worms in that canyon area were doing incredibly powerful fire DoTs that nearly killed me (so rapidly!! whoa!) several times and eventually did kill me once. Same thing happened in Stormwall proper, although I had learned by then to give those beasties wide berth via stealth. Finally, in the solo Stormwall instance I couldn't survive past the opening attack from the two worms and their DoTs. Upon retreating of course I found myself on a hilltop very very far away, which was demoralizing. When I go back, I will definitely bring additional potions and stuff, but the overall experience felt really far out of the norm (seriously, the DoT was so quick which is hard when potions/buffs are on cool down). I had been in that same canyon area last week just exploring and managed it just fine.

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Same with my Bear on that as well this week, she died 5 times there for the same reasons. I tried to get her better gear got her in 120 gear tried it again same results even with man healing and bear healing going, and getting out of the fire. Had to go into tanking mode to finish it.

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Originally Posted by Vastin

I'll certainly look at the general balance in that level range. We've mostly been focused on 120 and the 1-50 range lately, so this band hasn't been getting as much attention.

-Vastin

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You certainly should take a look at the rest of the game balance, too. A lot of players are in that range inbetween 50 and 120 and getting quite frustrated.

I'm having similar issues with my Champion in the Wastes. I ran my Runekeeper through this zone a few months back and had zero issues. My Champion is struggling to bring down mobs in general, each pull is a battle, which is not what I usually see.

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Originally Posted by SotaMursu

(everything in east rohan has 1-2k per tick bleeds, here's a few: )

Wold Ruffian
Wold Salamander
Wold Warg

(these things in wildermore have very high damage: )

Frost Grim (frost damage)
Snowy Grim (frost damage)
Snow-stalker (frost damage)

(these in wildermore have very high bleeds: )

Wild Hill-goat

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I am finding the level 85 grims in Wildermore to be almost unbeatable, even with a level 92 RK that used to have no problem with these things. It seems like looking through these threads, RKs in particular are having a hard time with the excessive scaling issues. I just reached the level 85 solo instance quest where you face Nurzum, and as soon as I saw he summons grims, I knew it was going to be hopeless.

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Originally Posted by ziggy29

I am finding the level 85 grims in Wildermore to be almost unbeatable, even with a level 92 RK that used to have no problem with these things. It seems like looking through these threads, RKs in particular are having a hard time with the excessive scaling issues. I just reached the level 85 solo instance quest where you face Nurzum, and as soon as I saw he summons grims, I knew it was going to be hopeless.

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Is this still an issue? I just tried downing some grims in Wildermore (lvl 87) and was quickly wiped out twice. Never had this happen before.

Lvl 87 LM. Dang things even ignored my bear's taunt and just blasted me dead with Frost before I could even get two burning embers' off.