Legendary Servers: Constructive Criticism for SSG

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Originally Posted by Vanyaerunanethiel

Remarkable post, I have read it all.The boat sank. Legendary servers have had the chance to be unique but it is over. The post is well written, honest, detailed and constructive indeed, but replying into details will be in vain for its far too late ,Randir. You expect and hope for impossible. It was beautiful when you say you love the game, but game you knew once is gone, ruined beyond repair, A shadow.

All of these excellent points you have stated are distant memory and one of the what "if" what could have been. Legendary servers are near disaster that should end right now if you ask me sincerely. Sad, truly as for point 3) You have to realise community has changed and filled with massive amount of rude posts,fighting,complaining and even bashing the company, would you reply often and communicate to your players if they slam you in the face often and no it is not become constructive criticism, the posts such is yours are extraordinary rare.

As for 1,2,4 and 5. Bye Bye Birdy,It matters not anymore. Do not waste your energy. The damage has already been done.

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Thanks for reading, but I must say I disagree with some of your comments. The community hasn't changed to become as negative as you suggest. There is a big big difference between what you see on the forums and what the genuine sentiment is amongst the community who plays. It is only now beginning to really shift within our kinship, which contains around 400-500 active players. It seems the only people who use the forums are the more 'elitist' crowd which is why it might appear on here that the whole community is up in arms, so I think that is worth baring in mind. Secondly, I put in the effort because I believe this can change. Just because the legendary servers are progressing on now, it doesn't mean that things can't be improved for the game as a whole, or for SSG as a company. To quote Jon Brackenbrook, 'Even though the Mad Badger burns, I still hold out hope!'

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Originally Posted by Thymir

The pace of content release is too fast.
Give us room to breath.
Communicate to your player base
Basic testing
This is a premium product.

In conclusion, I really do adore this game.

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I completely agree with all of that. :D Communication and consistency on expansion release to the Legendary Servers is akward at best and completely lacking at worst. And three months is too fast for me to enjoy all of the content before another expansion is released.

Oh, and for those saying it's too late... it's never too late for an indie developer/publisher like SSG to make changes to how they operate in regards to this. They're not tied down to some big name, so they have the ability to be much more agile.

Great post! Ultimately it is just very disappointing...they had the perfect opportunity to balance check and fix/improve the entire game from the initial level 50 cap upwards and they have pretty much half-arsed it every step of the way (whether through lack of proper resourcing or otherwise).

In a way it is a Bullroarer Mk.2 that people are actually paying to play on so it is genius in that regard, but it is sad that they blew the chance to capitalise on a very obvious interest shown in this style of server. They seem to have gotten more on top of the instance and raid difficulty in Mirkwood and now Isengard so it is a pity that they did not manage that back in the earlier releases. Having people 3 man The Rift in terrible gear within days of opening the server was about the worst possible start and yet they still managed to drop the ball with the Moria and Lothlorien clusters.

Oh well. Hopefully we are done with releasing the new areas at an increased pace since it is hard to imagine that Rohan will do anything to boost the populations on Anor and Ithil. Maybe there could be some mileage in the idea of merging the two and then starting one server over fresh at 50 again?

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Originally Posted by BotLike

Will any of you even drop your subscription after having those poor experiences for months ?

You do realise this 'Legendary' thing was a clear cashgrab from the start right ?
You thought the fact it's sub only would provide you with quality content (...)

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Poor experience? No, it was amazing for the first several months with SoA, and even into Moria.

But then Mirkwood and Isengard came too quickly, along with some bad oversights (ie: Skirmish Camp LI vendor). The OP is also right in that SSG is not communicating with us enough about release schedule.

No argument that it was "cash grab", and a clever one with good timing throughout the world of MMO gaming. But that doesn't instantly negate all of the good things it sparked for LOTRO. Without the Legendary Servers, SSG and the community would miss out on that bit of revival, and things would be much more more grim at this point in a 12+ year old game. LOTRO needed this, but now that the shine is fading for those who've returned, SSG needs to be careful about how they manage expansion releases on these new servers to not only just to keep the community they've gathered, but also increase it.

I'm just an IT software engineer and tech in my daily life, and in no way any sort of marketing wizard, but it seems to me that SSG can do better with the expansion unlocks on Legendary Servers. Where's the excitement? Where are the in-game and online events for these releases? Where is there any sort of promoted release schedule for the expansions? All we get is some last minute announcement on the forums (and may be if we're lucky in the launcher) and a small patch note about the update.

Considering that everyone on the Legendary Servers are either VIP and paying monthly, or lifers, there should certainly be funds to organize some in-game, community events to get players excited about each new expansion. Instead we just have a quiet unlock of content and patch notes. There's nothing "Legendary" about that process.

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Originally Posted by Aelbryht

...it is hard to imagine that Rohan will do anything to boost the populations on Anor and Ithil. Maybe there could be some mileage in the idea of merging the two...

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I foresee a merging of Anor and Ithil servers in the near future. Populations on both has plummeted since Moria was released on them.

You also mentioned balancing. It's probably not within SSG's plans to do any of that since we're three expansions deep now, and I'd agree they missed a really good opportunity to tweak the numbers as expansions were unlocked.

I'm happy to get a chance to experience LOTRO with timed expansion releases, but not as thrilled with how it was implemented.

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Originally Posted by cipher_nemo

Poor experience? No, it was amazing for the first several months with SoA, and even into Moria.

But then Mirkwood and Isengard came too quickly, along with some bad oversights (ie: Skirmish Camp LI vendor). The OP is also right in that SSG is not communicating with us enough about release schedule.

No argument that it was "cash grab", and a clever one with good timing throughout the world of MMO gaming. But that doesn't instantly negate all of the good things it sparked for LOTRO. Without the Legendary Servers, SSG and the community would miss out on that bit of revival, and things would be much more more grim at this point in a 12+ year old game. LOTRO needed this, but now that the shine is fading for those who've returned, SSG needs to be careful about how they manage expansion releases on these new servers to not only just to keep the community they've gathered, but also increase it.

I'm just an IT software engineer and tech in my daily life, and in no way any sort of marketing wizard, but it seems to me that SSG can do better with the expansion unlocks on Legendary Servers. Where's the excitement? Where are the in-game and online events for these releases? Where is there any sort of promoted release schedule for the expansions? All we get is some last minute announcement on the forums (and may be if we're lucky in the launcher) and a small patch note about the update.

Considering that everyone on the Legendary Servers are either VIP and paying monthly, or lifers, there should certainly be funds to organize some in-game, community events to get players excited about each new expansion. Instead we just have a quiet unlock of content and patch notes. There's nothing "Legendary" about that process.

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I can't say SOA was amazing the first months lol.. Yes it was nice to see so many players flocking the server and landscape. But wow, such a dissappointment once everyone including myself realised there was zero effort done into balance.

I know you love the easy landscape, round up 10 mobs and kill them in a few seconds or just auto-attack things to death. If someone would have wanted that on a "classic" server, they could have just played on a normal server.

Server population went from 1600 > 800 in 4 weeks, that is a 50% population drop. This wasn't because of short time on each content release, but rather that it was EXACTLY the same as normal servers, except you needed VIP.

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Originally Posted by cipher_nemo

I'm happy to get a chance to experience LOTRO with timed expansion releases, but not as thrilled with how it was implemented.

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What do you think SSG could have done differently? Just curious.

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Originally Posted by LotroVidz

I can't say SOA was amazing the first months lol

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Exactly. For me, it was amazing for just the first few weeks or so until the overtuned dots were fixed, which (unintentionally) provided a somewhat challenging landscape for the first time in years. My partner and I had a blast. No rush, just immersing ourselves in Middle-earth again.

Once the dot was fixed, we tried to continue but the contrast really made it clear just how trival landscape had become. Then, when my highest character was mid 20s and I first saw an LFF call for an essence farm I knew I was done.

The path of the legendary worlds were too fast. I played like hell and missed the releases when I was in moria. 3 month is way too short. So I returned to the live servers.

I hope SSG will start another legendary server some time. Maybe with SOA only oder MoM only. That would be great.

Well said, Thymir.

Hits the nail on the head and deserves support from the player base and the SSG team. I really hope you get a reply and some traction here!

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Originally Posted by LotroVidz

What do you think SSG could have done differently? Just curious.

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For Legendary Servers specifically:

1.) Took the opportunity to balance gameplay with a fresh start. Numbers can be tweaked as SSG watches how gameplay on the Legendary Server unfolds.
2.) Include PvMP, and just like #1, this is an opportunity to balance from the start.
3.) Have a solid, promoted schedule of expansion releases and stick to it. And don't release expansions or updates during festivals.
4.) More time between expansions. This could be done by including content updates in-between expansions, give a month or so for each. Example: Lothlorien in-between Moria and Mirkwood. Therefore each expansion might be 4 or 5 months apart.
5.) Market each release better. Build excitement with in-game events, that also help generate a sense of community on the Legendary Servers.
6.) I would offer a one-way transfer of characters from Ithil to Anor. Warn players long in advance of desire to switch to just one Legendary Server.
7.) Offer more than just legendary complete-everything quests. The Legendary Servers are a chance to create a unique time sink that's exclusive to them. Time sinks that are fun become "exclusive content", but time sinks that are tedious just become more grinding, so a carefully planned approach to this is important. Rewards for competition of this unique Legendary Server content could be account-wide and thus fun to use/display on the regular servers.

Keep in mind that my enjoyment and feeling of Legendary Servers being fun and a rewarding experience was due to visiting SoA content again with other players having to run it all over again as well. Part reliving memories, part enjoyment of doing the content again with an active server. That faded due to rushed expansion release and population drop after Moria was added.

And for LOTRO in general:

1.) Revamp the LI system: reduce the amount of layers and grinding add-ons over time. Just keep it to item XP and may be relics, more opportunity to unlock LI level cap during progression. In other words, more like end-game imbued LIs from the start without all of the busy work in-between. Balance advancement to reduce ILI-focused everything from end-game to raiding.
2.) Make gear drops worthwhile. Ditch essences, boost other gear, add more unique gear to drop.
3.) Revamp crafting, make it worthwhile again at end-game. Right now it's just progression help, and even then getting the mats for complicated recipes is not worth the time because you'll out-level it.
4.) And #2 and #3 might make the Auction House worthwhile and more diverse again?
5.) Keep the landscape easy, but increase challenge in some instances. Easy landscape progression keeps casuals here, while challenging instances can keep non-casuals a little more entertained. I'm not talking being able to one-shot everything, just not making every encounter a life-or-death battle. If you overlevel or have the best gear for your class, then of course things are far too easy. Right now some landscape is a bit too easy, while other landscape is a little more, but not ideally balanced. Mob density and sig/elite frequency play a role as well. As for instances, not just stat balancing, but mechanics as well. Halls of Night is interesting (on level) because unprepared or unbalanced small fellowships can easily wipe on it, balanced fellowships can play off the mechanics, and DPS-heavy fellowships can easily bypass mechanics. And you can't bring in a full fellowship to faceroll it.

Almost forgot, among many other changes I'd love to see: ditch fellowship maneuvers or make them worthwhile again.

I've tried to stay agnostic about the release-speed wars, but I have to weigh in on the too-fast side. I wanted to get a really in-depth play through the older content, and now I'm still in Moria while level cap has spread out in front of me. And that's playing more than I've ever played.

"We must have VIP to get into that server, so we can call this premium product, and need premium service from developers" - something what I really hate about games. No, legendary servers can't be premium product. It's just 2 another servers. And if we don't have many other servers what have many players who spend their money, legendary servers never exists.

To everyone in this thread who's dissatisfied with how LS are being handled:

You do realize that your active subscriptions nullify all your criticism, right? By staying subbed to play on LS you are single-handedly enabling SSG to keep doing everything you're complaining about.

Guess why it's been like this? Poor QA? Content too rushed? Not even bothering to inform players of level cap raise until the day before release? Because you're still giving them money, that's why. Is the craving for Tolkien Middle Earth holding you hostage to a subpar product experience you're not even enjoying? They're counting on it. Maybe stop giving them money if you want your constructive criticism to sink in.

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Originally Posted by Herwegur

To everyone in this thread who's dissatisfied with how LS are being handled:

You do realize that your active subscriptions nullify all your criticism, right? By staying subbed to play on LS you are single-handedly enabling SSG to keep doing everything you're complaining about.

Guess why it's been like this? Poor QA? Content too rushed? Not even bothering to inform players of level cap raise until the day before release? Because you're still giving them money, that's why. Is the craving for Tolkien Middle Earth holding you hostage to a subpar product experience you're not even enjoying? They're counting on it. Maybe stop giving them money if you want your constructive criticism to sink in.

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No. If they have lifetime sub, they don't give them any money

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Originally Posted by Elmagor

No. If they have lifetime sub, they don't give them any money

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Originally Posted by Herwegur

To everyone in this thread who's dissatisfied with how LS are being handled:

You do realize that your active subscriptions nullify all your criticism, right? By staying subbed to play on LS you are single-handedly enabling SSG to keep doing everything you're complaining about.

Guess why it's been like this? Poor QA? Content too rushed? Not even bothering to inform players of level cap raise until the day before release? Because you're still giving them money, that's why. Is the craving for Tolkien Middle Earth holding you hostage to a subpar product experience you're not even enjoying? They're counting on it. Maybe stop giving them money if you want your constructive criticism to sink in.

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The post is addressing monthly paid subscribers buying access to Legendary Servers on ongoing basis.

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Originally Posted by Herwegur

You do realize that your active subscriptions nullify all your criticism, right? By staying subbed to play on LS you are single-handedly enabling SSG to keep doing everything you're complaining about.

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Do you ever complain when your electricity goes out? You're still paying for that every month.

VIPers who do not have lifetime accounts can't stop subbing and still continue playing. It's not F2P on the Legendary Servers, so it's either not play or pay and play. There is no free option. Unless you know of a free way to transfer my Anor characters to another F2P server? ... yeah, I didn't think so. I have no interest in starting over again.

I'm very frustrated with SSG about how badly they handle communication. They know at least a week in advance when they're going to progress the legendary servers, yet no matter how much we beg or complain, they won't tell us.

This isn't even a special request. Every other game I've seen just automatically decides to tell their players when major things will happen, well BEFORE they happen. Every other game I've seen, if they put information in videos or streams or on someone else's platform, they also put it at least in text on their website or forums or launcher. For the last couple of years, we don't even get that. It's common sense, it's thoughtful, it's doing a complete and competent job.

My best guess is that the relevant people are unhappy or burnt out working on two MMOs at the same time, and are just dropping a lot of stuff because they're too full of their own levels of "meh" and just getting through the day to be able to care what we feel.

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Originally Posted by Pfeifenkraut

I'm very frustrated with SSG about how badly they handle communication. They know at least a week in advance when they're going to progress the legendary servers, yet no matter how much we beg or complain, they won't tell us.

This isn't even a special request. Every other game I've seen just automatically decides to tell their players when major things will happen, well BEFORE they happen. Every other game I've seen, if they put information in videos or streams or on someone else's platform, they also put it at least in text on their website or forums or launcher. For the last couple of years, we don't even get that. It's common sense, it's thoughtful, it's doing a complete and competent job.

My best guess is that the relevant people are unhappy or burnt out working on two MMOs at the same time, and are just dropping a lot of stuff because they're too full of their own levels of "meh" and just getting through the day to be able to care what we feel.

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They have a community manager, is he too busy with DDO or is it the same problem over there? Does it really take that much time to post a comment on forums, he need approval or something? I don't get it.

I am almost sure all player here have a sub and play LS and still love the game. Stockholm Syndrome i am here. :rolleyes:

I mean you have no credibility and all yours complain are joke. SSG will never change until player stop spend money and game crash for ever. Hard fact to admit.

EDIT : Oddly i don't see Arnenna posting here.

Since Mordor, When they changed character models that caused clipping (a not aligned wireframe, no longer sitting straight on a steed's saddle, gear of all types clipping issues), changed XP all levels, changed all character's stats, etc.. All of these affected and broke many other aspects of the game. It feels like throwing a rubber patch on a tire with a hole in it. It felt like the programmers have zero knowledge of LotRO's gameplay, knowledge of the code and the knowledge of how their changes they implemented would affect the rest of the game. All the wonderful loving synergies LotRO once gave the player, for me simply are no longer there. To implement designs in game that mimic PJ's fake movies was utterly mind blowing. Wow! Just Wow! No pun intended.

There is nothing legendary about the LS servers. Another bad choice naming them even. Just spliced up chucks of levels and content so they could apply more rubber patches from the issues and circumstances their changes made. I can imagine IF they did release the expansions as like they were originally released from SoA to SoM, No one would be playing on live.

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Originally Posted by Aerlthorn

I am almost sure all player here have a sub and play LS and still love the game. Stockholm Syndrome i am here. :rolleyes:

I mean you have no credibility and all yours complain are joke. SSG will never change until player stop spend money and game crash for ever. Hard fact to admit.

EDIT : Oddly i don't see Arnenna posting here.

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Eh? They have lost an insane amount of players over the years and lost like 80% of the LS population lol.

I just came back to LoTRO after 9 mos away. I had just started a character on the LS prior to leaving but frankly the ILI grind and blatant p2w turned me off from the company. I came back as I missed my ME immersion and outside of rereading the books and watching the movies there was no alternative. I haven't logged on to the regular server but the LS has become relatively barren as have the forums. Hurin predicted such but it has been clear for some time that SSG has pulled back efforts on this game to near maintenence-only levels. I'm having fun in the early levels but don't really care for getting into end game or raids as the ILI grind holds no attraction for me at all. Likely there are many in this camp now, willing to pay for ME immersion but not the ridiculous p2w vs full time grind choice of LoTRO end game. Guess that makes me a casual now. And holy #### when did all the content become faceroll easy? Well, it was that way prior to leaving really.

My hope is since the likely loosening of license standards from MEE that we would see additional LOTR-based games in the future. In any case, I agree with the OPs points wholeheartedly.

Oh I meant to add, it has taken two weeks getting back on the forums as the log-in is buggy as hell.

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Originally Posted by Mythreindeer

I haven't logged on to the regular server but the LS has become relatively barren as have the forums.

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Originally Posted by LotroVidz

Eh? They have lost an insane amount of players over the years and lost like 80% of the LS population lol.

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Indeed, that is very close to the truth. It might even be more than 80%.

No one knows for sure (except SSG) since Steam stats only handles a portion of players and can't determine which server they're on. But overall on Steam stats, peak players in November 2018 was 1,958. In August 2019 it was 942. That's more than a loss of half. In January it was 1,601 players peak. Keep in mind that most who played a decade ago obviously didn't access LOTRO through Steam, and you can still install LOTRO independently. I'm one of those. Since the Legendary Server brought back many old players, it's safe to say that the Steam stats do not fully represent the LS players.

I will offer up my dwindling kinship as an example, since I had stats of players throughout its history:

Nostalgia Then
Membership: March was our peak time of activity (stats from then to prove it), with a roster of 95 characters, so about 80 players without alts.
Peak Logged-in: Just over 1 page of players (a page is 20 characters) -- 25%
Total Active Players: Around 75 -- 94%

Nostalgia Now
Membership: We still have roughly that many members minus a couple, but they're inactive, with last logins in the range of months.
Peak Logged-in: 3 -- less than 4%
Total Active Players: 6 -- less than 8% (myself, 1 officer, and 4 members)

I've given up recruiting because when I do get someone to join, they end up leaving after a day or two because we're not that active. So it's a catch 22, you can't retain members if your numbers of active members are already low. And it's only getting worse on Anor. These days higher population areas on Anor server at prime time look like ghost towns.

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Originally Posted by cipher_nemo

Do you ever complain when your electricity goes out? You're still paying for that every month.

VIPers who do not have lifetime accounts can't stop subbing and still continue playing. It's not F2P on the Legendary Servers, so it's either not play or pay and play. There is no free option. Unless you know of a free way to transfer my Anor characters to another F2P server? ... yeah, I didn't think so. I have no interest in starting over again.

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Oof, comparing a leisure entertainment product to a life neccessity? I hurt for your addiction.

I bolded and underlined a sentence in the above post, for emphasis. I'll just leave it there like that, that whole post proves my earlier observation.