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No. It is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrynor
What is part of ROI is solely and ONLY the parts those people paying get and others don't.
The rest is just a patch of the game mechanics which is applied to everyone.
It's really not that difficult a concept, the application of which shows we've paid major expansion prices for a quest pack.
Well, if people absolutely insist on calling the 10 level boost as free, and not part of the expansion, and use that delineation to minimize the expansion, then you should at least be complete in your assessment.
If the 10 levels are free, and not part of RoI in your opinion, then I need to grats Turbine big time, for releasing the very rare, free, level cap increase. Few, if any, major MMO's offer the same without some expense.
It's still part of the expansion though, whether you pay for them or not is irrelevant. All content, quests, and instances are based on those 10 levels. They are all woven together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lomeloth
I'm very glad the leveling is included regardless of xpac purchase. SoE makes you pay for levels with EQ2 so that if you don't buy the xpac you don't even get to level, let alone enjoy anything new. I think offering the leveling content for "free" is rather generous. The rest falls under YMMV.
The ability to achieve those ten levels will arrive simultaneously, as it is inextricably part of the same code base and client. Many other things will also arrive then - the ability to craft/earn new items, advance the Epic line, explore new lands, etc. Also accessible will be all the things I already have - characters, houses, and all the rest. It's all part of the code base and client. None of that is part of the expansion if it can be accessed without paying for the expansion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrynor
My grocery store has a free cooking magazine available to loyalty club members every month. I'm a member in good standing. I can bring home my free magazine and eggs I bought from the store in the same grocery bag; the arrival of the magazine in my kitchen depends on my carrying in the bag containing it, not the simultaneous arrival of the eggs in the same bag. If I hadn't purchased eggs, the magazine would still arrive in the bag. I just wouldn't also have eggs - I'd have to pick them up later if I wanted them. And if I left the bag outside, I'd have no magazine (or eggs, if I'd bought them) in the house. In case the grocery-based analogy eludes you: The bag is the code base, the magazine is the content not requiring purchase, and the eggs are the content requiring it.
The differentiation in what one can access in terms of content and/or advancement is by definition what constitutes an expansion or update. It is how they are sold, and how they work. Account not flagged for Mirkwood? Can't access quests there. Account not flagged for RoI? Can't access quests there. And so forth. But want to grind your way to 75 without that RoI flag? Have at it.
The murkiness here comes from the mixed signals Turbine is sending - Update 5 will be free for cash expansion purchasers, but it's also labeled an Update - and that label carries with it its own inherent meaning based on empirical evidence. To continue as above: Want to access Update 3 content (e.g., Halls of Night)? If your account is not flagged as VIP, and you haven't purchased its flag, can't access it. If your account is flagged as VIP, go right in. Whether that flag, in addition to the RoI flag, will grant access to the instances is unclear.
ETA 1: I want to make it clear I am not talking about this from Turbine's perspective. The development effort involved that went in under the RoI project(s) were surely all linked to those projects and added to the code/client. But as a consumer, I can and do differentiate between what I pay for and what I don't.
ETA 2: I agree with Fyrebrand that the inclusion of those 10 levels for free is generous. Again, not trying to detract from that aspect either.
yes, i left the 10 levels out of my summary, and did so intentionally. i'll try and explain my reasoning why they are not germane to the discussion of Update 4 AKA RoI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stadic
MMO's are fundamentally progression based games, yeah? that's why we like levels. except that unlimited levels cause rapid obsolescence of expensive-to-create content, so we have AA - Alternative Advancement. now, LOTRO happens to have very good AA: The Epic Story itself, LIs, Skirms, Rep grinds for cosmetics and craftables, progression raids, PvMP ranks (well, once they get decent rewards...). the presence of a good AA system makes the actual 'level' system a bit redundant, and with something like LOTRO, very redundant: you spend MUCH more time grinding up the AA tress than you do getting to 65, for example.
combine this with the fact that since we hit 60, the Devs have publicly stated they're trying to avoid giving up new skills, only consolidating or improving them as we lvl up, because a: balancing all those skills is a nightmare; and b: finding space on yr hotbars is already impossible for some classes (hello, LMs!). so the 'improvements' that we've seen since 60 (although if you wanted to make the argument that we've seen trivial improvement lvl-wise since 50, i'd find it hard to refute) have been pretty cosmetic: you get your last good-even-when-untraited skills at 50, and some good-if-traited-for skills at 60; nothing above 60 counts as more than a revision.
ok, that's a design limitation that Turbine have put on, probably for reasons of sanity (ie, the balancing nightmare); but still, the result of that decision is profound. there's simply nothing new past 60 that counts as 'progression' rather than 'consolidation'. so the extra levels we've got - from 60 to 65, then from 65 to 75 - give what?
and i mean that seriously, what DO they give? they allow the grandfathering of currently best-in-slot gear (but we had to get 10 lvls this time, as the 5 lvls that SoM gave turned out to be not enough to grandfather Watcher sets). other than that? you'll spend much more time grinding out the AAs than you will the 10 lvls, the 10 lvls aren't going to give you anything more than some revised skills that you could just have been given in place of the skills, as a class update. so what do they give?
because LOTRO has such a good AA system, the lvls themselves are a bit superfluous; because the Devs themselves don't want to change the balance-of-power established at lvl 60, the extra lvls pretty much by definition aren't necessary, so, umm... with 10 extra lvls we get our gear well and truly grandfathered, so we can start that AA grind again. and that's it.
that, to me, doesn't sound like a notable expansion feature: "here, come get your gear voided and start your gear-based AA progression from scratch again!" it's just not even remotely a feature. thus, i left it out of my list of features for Update 4. it's, well, an accounting mechanism. but not a feature, and thus not included in any feature list.
the feature i DID leave out, and probably shouldn't have, is the Epic Story: it's the centrepiece of LOTRO, and although there're some disturbing reports about them filtering out from the beta, their almost always is, and yet i've always found them to be enjoyable and engaging. but an accounting mechanism that resets our gear-based AA progression? not mentioned because it's no feature.
Again, this simply leads me to re-state, if this is the argument, and people do not feel that the 10 levels are part of RoI in their criticism of the expansion, it should be noted that Turbine has given a level cap increase out as free content then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lomeloth
In most MMO's I've seen, level increases are specifically part of paid expansions.
If that is the delineation, then as much as they are shortchanging people in a content-limited expansion, so too are they being exceedingly generous for giving you a level cap increase free of charge.
You were probably typing this as I was adding an edit in response to much the same sentiment expressed by Fyrebrand. I quite agree - an increase of 10 levels free to the entire playerbase is exceptionally generous. I could further speculate as to why it would happen thusly, but it would be rather off topic ;).Quote:
Originally Posted by Stadic
The update part is murky, at the best... I'm a lifer... I'm supposed to get all updates for free. But not this one? Odd!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lomeloth
One question, Im a premium player. You said about Hall of nights instance its free for vips, if I became VIP for a month and then I leave to pay. I have permanent accesss for this instance after I leave VIP status?Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrynor
About RoI expansion $50 for F2P player like me was really a good offer. I get premium status, roi exp, path of fellow, 1000 tp, cosmetics, horses, update 5 free. . . but for a lifer o vip I dont think so.
Nope. You rent access to HoN/IoF/Skirmishes/Eriador QPs.;Quote:
Originally Posted by KevStrong
I think it's because this is technically a part of the expansion. Or at least the instances in the update will be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrynor
What other game(s) have a paid expansion but give you part of it 3 months later?
It depends how fine you want to split semantic hairs.Quote:
Originally Posted by KingCogidubnus
Most MMOs work on the basis of releasing a paid-for expansion and then 'free' updates,LoTRO has been like this from the start, WOW and FFXI are two others I play like that, of course this isn't 'free' content you paid for it up-front it's just marketing rubbish that calls it 'free'.
but they don't charge extra on top if it... Its part of your subscription. Turbine are wanting to charge for something VIP's are normally entitled too.
What's your point?Quote:
Originally Posted by KingCogidubnus
Most people realize that it's a strange choice and likely done to try to counter the potential 2011 release of SW:TOR.
My point is no other game does this so how they can call these delayed instances part of the expansion and charge for them is absurd
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingCogidubnus
They are not charging for them when they come out. At least not for anyone who buys the expansion through the Web Store
They only charge for them if you do not buy the expansion! If you buy the expansion you will get these instances. It's not absurd.Quote:
Originally Posted by KingCogidubnus
To paraphrase someone else's coffee analogy... It's like buying coffee with milk, but the waiter says we're out of milk but will have some more cold in ten minutes. Then you get a choice of getting coffee now and wait for the milk, or wait for both to come at the same time, or just leave. If they delay the expansion until the instances are ready many players will rant over this, they were already ranting that there was a drought of new content and were demanding that new stuff come out now. If they don't delay the expansion then people will rant that it's not all there on day one. If they release it all in september than players will rant that the instances are buggy and unplayable and have cows standing in for NPCs, except on the cow level where NPCs are stand ins for the cows. Turbine can't win here no matter what option they choose because someone will rant over it.
The thing is, Turbine used to produce new content on time, and enough of it to keep people busy and happy like they did in the good old days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lohi
Now they tell us the aren't-we-doing-so-well PR about revenue tripling etc, yet they can't get the content out on time like they once could.
Turbine can win here - get stuff out on time, with what's supposed to be included. Otherwise, where is all this supposed revenue going? I like many others suspect it's not going back into Lotro at all, hence why content is such a big mess now with dates missed by many months, promised areas dropped, a latest xpac that is shaping up to make even SoM look epic etc etc
And then after a year they announced a change to 3 patches and one expansion per year. So far this year we've had more then that...last year, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by monteeburns
Right! Like how Lothlorien came out with MoM...oh, wait...Quote:
Originally Posted by monteeburns
There have ALWAYS been delays, and content and features that didn't make it to release. And there always will be. Just like there always have been and always will be people who piss and moan because they have just been "slapped in the face".
Yeah, there is a big difference between releasing a small section of the moria expansion late, and the entire instance section of the latest expansion late, turning it into a glorified quest pack, that's before talking about the free dragon anniversary raid that's not so free or so anniversary anymore, or the promised new PvP area thats been totally ditched now.
As for those who 'piss and moan', I don't know if you'd noticed but the forum is a whole lot busier with them now than at previous expansions. Now I wonder why that could be.....
No, haven't noticed it being any different than at any other expansion or update. Seriously, it is like this EVERY time. About the only difference is the fact that we don't have Turbine forums and CM forums, it's just all one big dysfunctional family.Quote:
Originally Posted by monteeburns
That is what I thought as well. I hate this time before launch when it gets so ugly on the live forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by GregJL
I would love to hear from a dev about the LFF system. For me it's only salt in a wound telling me that there is more instances I'll never be able to play because I dont have the time it takes to get groups in the way Turbine seems to require for these things. I'm an expert on getting them but I don't have the time it takes with text. (plus that is so 199x.)