Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

To me, it sounds like you overvalue the meaning of diplomacy in a setting like this. Historically, peace is rather fragile, and that you officially achieved it (especially if that's regarding your hateful foe) is no guarantee of peace at all. It was said Aragorn made peace with the Haradrim after the coronation, which was already adapted but these were Far Harad representatives. What does it mean if no one else send a representative to seek out peace? Clearly nothing friendly. Sure, Aragorn might try to reach out, but it doesn't mean it's something to cultivate like a fool, especially that any word from the more unfriendly clans shouldn't be trusted. Plus, to guard peace, it's in Aragorn's interest to see Harad or Rhun people squabble amongst themselves for a time, not meditate and put someone "on a throne" in each key region, which then presents perfect opportunity for this someone to maybe betray his word and turn against Gondor. This kind of thing works if you actually have armies at the ready and an intention to use them in case things go wrong - so you're basically creating a vassal in a foreign land. But if not - and here it's clearly Aragorn who would rather have days of peace, not perspective of involving Gondor in another war at this time (though he might be more willing in Fourth Age) - then there is nothing to motivate such a friend/vassal to abide by their word. For example, with Umbar, you can't trust a pirate that he will not remain a pirate and won't turn against Gondorian merchant vessels once Umbar is united and on a stable foot again. In which case, what's even the point of striving for peace and solving their foreign internal problems to "achieve it" (with your means and resources spent)? There really is none. Aragorn should strive for it of course, within limits, receive emissaries if they wanna come or send letters/some diplomats with good words, but otherwise he shouldn't beg for it nor spent his own resources, time and effort to achieve this geopolitically fragile goal. He would be no good king if he tried that, more like a naive king, still wet behind their ears.

Sounds like he is right but hardly applies to Aragorn situation since that's exactly the case, Aragorn does not want to retaliate and be aggressive here. All he gotta do is just sit and show good will, either they take it or they don't (in which case they're busy with internal affairs anyway and don't have the strength to threaten Gondor), but he does not need "peace at every cost possible" meaning wasting his best agents and resources on pressuring them into peace by meddling in their internal affairs and supporting one faction or another, albeit without the means to ensure their loyalty/friendship (how is that logical? :P). There is no self-sabotage to his rule by enjoying the privileges secured by his military victory against Sauron and then choosing to show good will to his enemies if they're willing - but otherwise stay away and let them handle their own affairs, just watch from afar and look for any signs of real danger, like unified Harad under someone nasty, but that wouldn't realistically happen too quickly, given the death of Black Serpent and political defragmentation that follows.

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Again, no one said Aragon would be sending us deep into Harard, Rhun, or Umbar, to do negotiations with these groups. The most I've ever said is that he would send us to Anfalas to deal with corsair remnants, and we would run into our Corsair buddy who would lead us into a situation that proves beneficial to Gondor. It wouldn't even take that long for the story to play out in universe. A week or so at most. Out players already go off on week+ long adventures with no contact with Aragorn as is.

And no, letting the various factions squabble among themselves is not in Aragorn's best interest. That's very much NOT in his best interest since it creates the scenario where factions who dislike him take power, rally the people, and attack him years down the line. Its in Aragorn's best interest to actively seek out those groups who are willing to accept peace, make deals with them, and actively support them, in order to prevent such a scenario from occurring. That's just basic politics.

I think its also pretty telling they've set up friendly, or possibly friendly, groups in each of the three regions. The Blue Wizards out in Rhun obviously hold some positions of power, as evidenced by the cults who formed under them, and we know they actively tried to stop the Easterlings from getting involved in the war. Jajax was a fairly notable captain of the Umbar fleet who realized the whole thing wasn't going well for them. And we've already seen one Haradrim Kingdom send emissaries to Gondor for peace. All of these make for easy stories that, outside of a trip to Umbar, doesn't require us to go deep into Harad or Rhun to find peace.
-We could meet up with Haradrim emissaries in Harondor, since they want a more neutral place for negotiations after one of their ambassadors got killed.
-We would run into the Blue Wizards in Dorwinion, while tracing back whatever decistation happened in Rhun
-I've already explained an easy shortish story for Jajax and the Umbarians

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

It's not something that can be done overnight and it's not like he is gonna send carts and materials overnight. But it's clearly on his mind, and he is already thinking/preparing for it, as proven by his pilgrimage North and Gandalf's comments to Barliman. Naturally, first there is some scouting to do, some clean-up to be done back in Eriador (so that would include the entire Angmar situation and Drugoth), some talks to be had with different representatives of Eriador etc. That's what our player might be involved in, as his trusted diplomat.

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What representatives of Eriador? The Dwarves of Eriador are Longbeards who serve the King Under the Mountain, who already sent ambassadors to Aragon. The Elves in Rivendell are under Elrond, who is Aragon's great uncle, and who already acknowledges his right to the former northern Kingdom. The Hobbits of the Shire don't really have room to negotiate since the Shire is only theirs as part of a treaty with the Kings of the North. Aragorn has no desire to take it back from them anyways, and not only expands the bounds of the Shire, but make it a protected enclave separate from the rest of the reunited Kingdom. The only human settlement of note is Bree, a single small town with no real political sway, and the rest of the very few inhabitants of Eriadors are generally one off farmers, and people squatting in old ruins like those in Ost Guruth, and Ost Forod. There is no substantive organization in Eriador that has any real political sway that Aragorn needs diplomatic efforts that he doesn't really have. That's kind of the whole point of Eriador, pretty much no one lives there outside of the Shire, Bree, and the Grey Havens. The Ring wraiths were having to bribe people to try to learn the location of the Shire because Eraidor is such a middle nowhere, almost no one lives there, mess they didn't even know the Shire existed.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

I guess they could just streamline the legendary weapon a bit, make it separate from the Epic or something, to be received at Elronds and thus better tied into the new Tracery room (lol, maybe some tutorial quests for the Traceries? because this gotta be the most confusing thing in the game right now)

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I'm sure Elrond is just keeping a vault full of legendary weapons around for giggles. But at this point the whole concept of an alternate to Moria has taken on a rather long list of excuses to try to justify it, ranging from redoing the whole legendary weapon introduction, to make an entire other branch of leveling zones, but not giving them epics to narratively justify the alt leveling experience. This is really just taken on the form of trying to make a square peg fit a round hole.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

The "why" we can't have boats has been partially revealed by Orion, I think. Because that would be a new system similar to mounted and mounted has problem/contributes to lag. But that's something on their list of problems to solve sometime 2023 and if they can solve that/eliminate its issues - then it's proven "boat mount" is feasible and then it's just a matter of implementation (and that would clearly need to be attached to something like expansion). If, but it remains to be seen, nothing is set in stone

They would be useful everywhere, seriously. Waterfalls are there sometimes but they're no issue, you can just swim down the river, down the waterfall and then summon a boat again. And nobody reasonably expect to swim upstream up a waterfall. Also, lots of areas still left to explore are... near the coasts. So there is still a lot of attractive waters to come. Much more than before. I mean, East Rohan was like 6 zones? It wasn't one, no expac is just one zone. There is no river on Tolkien map/lore (he wasn't very descriptive of places such as Harad) but reasonably there would be a river, zoom in on any google map place and you will always find some rivers. LOTRO does include/invent some of the non-canonical rivers and tributaries quite often, I think, to make it feel natural.

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They would be fairly useless in most places since the older maps weren't designed with the idea of there being boats, so the most effective form of travel will still be on land paths originally designed. Most rivers in LOTRO are far to narrow for any number of players to travel on them in real time, and waterfalls in LOTRO tend to kill players very often due to the sheer drops. You can't just swim down them then re-summon the boat. You would have to boat to the waterfall, get back on land, walk down whatever maze like landscape path they made to the bottom of the falls, and then get back in the water/re-summon the boat. Why would you do that when you can just take the land path to begin with, or auto-stable? For new maps along the coast, 95% of the content is going to be on land, not in the water, since there was one port of the Numenorians along the Eriador coast, that being Lond Daer. Having boats there would lets you travel down the sliver of water on the edge of the map, but isn't going to help much in regards to the rest of the area. And with Umbar's navy gone, there isn't exactly a naval force of note to provide much in the way of content along the coast besides auto traveling anyways.

As for Umbar itself, Umbar is in Near Harad, which is a desert. There is no river there since the area around it is a desert. And East Rohan was one zone, that being East Rohan. It was broken up into small parts, but none of those small parts had the content of a full zone, nor are they treated as such. Saying East Rohan has 6 zones is like saying Bree Land has like 6 zones because there is Bree land proper, but Archet, North/South Barrow Downs, the Old Forest, and Wildwood, each have their own clickable maps.

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

And no, letting the various factions squabble among themselves is not in Aragorn's best interest. That's very much NOT in his best interest since it creates the scenario where factions who dislike him take power, rally the people, and attack him years down the line. Its in Aragorn's best interest to actively seek out those groups who are willing to accept peace, make deals with them, and actively support them, in order to prevent such a scenario from occurring. That's just basic politics.

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If he has intention to support these groups with resources and arms perhaps, and to sharpen his own sword in case he is double-crossed, then OK, that is basic politics. But hardly fits the lore, assuming it's supposed to be a breather now, not a prelude/mobilization to war in a distant land. But if he doesn't want to mobilize and would rather give his people a breather, confident peace is secured for many years now (which it already is, given his enemies' military defeats), better to have them squabble for the time and get involved when it is necessary (there is also a canon precedent for that, with wars of the Fourth Age, when it becomes necessary to do war again, so very much a scenario you just mentioned - eventually something bad happens, like someone tries to rally all of Harad against Gondor again, so there is no choice and Aragorn rides off to war). But you can't have your cake and eat it too, that's not how military/geopolitics worked in antiquity/medieval times.

Though I could see something like Harondor being used as an earlier Harad storyline, potentially, dealing with some emissaries and solving the problem of the buffer zone. More likely to happen - reasonably - than something like venturing into Harad proper, at this point of the story.

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

What representatives of Eriador?

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Aragorn is hardly an absolutist ruler, so pretty sure he would try to be kind and soften the revelation a bit/start negotiations with people of Breeland, different wondering factions, and directly with the leaders of different dwarven outposts on how best to proceed. Not just... send those missives to everyone and immediately start serving them orders on what to do, where and how.

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

But at this point the whole concept of an alternate to Moria has taken on a rather long list of excuses to try to justify it, ranging from redoing the whole legendary weapon introduction, to make an entire other branch of leveling zones, but not giving them epics to narratively justify the alt leveling experience. This is really just taken on the form of trying to make a square peg fit a round hole.

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I don't even think the existence of legendary is such a big issue here in the first place, but either way, sounds like you just have a big problem with the idea of alternate lvl ranges for places such as Moria, not sure why, but whatever I say won't change it, I guess. You can't "narratively justify their existence" though alternate Epics because the entire Epic storyline is too well connected together from bottom to top, so to even attempt that is sheer madness, plain and simple, and - other than with starter experience such as Swanfleet/Cardolan - it won't work. But you can provide the leveling alternatives nevertheless, sell them to players as you would any other questpack/expansion and allow players to proceed as they wish. Something that ties into the "Epic Story" is not a highlight of a good sell, and even if it was, bah, they can even technically have an "Epic" story in there, albeit one separate narratively and named differently (like Black Book of Mordor), and all is good.


Even in desert areas you have some rivers, as in not the whole coast of Africa is a desert. We have no idea how exactly to interpret Umbar/Harad, we just know roughly what climate zone they're in. But the devs can come up with rivers, biomes and different landmarks. There is no certainty everywhere around the port of Umbar is *just desert*, unlikely.

Zone = own map with sufficient amount of content in it. But if something relatively smaller is part of another zone, say Old Forest/Barrow-downs in Breeland, well, that's just part of the zone. East Wall or the Wold aren't relatively smaller, they're their own sizeable zones within expansion. There are some zones that are bigger/more condensed and geopolitically separate, such as Eryn Lasgalen and the Dalelands, but they don't have separate maps, so well, part of the same zone.

You say boats would be useless... well, I wholeheartedly disagree. If I play any game that allows water travel - for any reason - it's a pure joy, and made even greater if you design some content for it/take advantage of it when you can. Not to mention the landscape vistas and experiences when you get a bit further from the shore. Boat doesn't mean they should just design landscapes in ways that let you travel without obstacles and that there shouldn't be any waterfalls along the way.

The Harnen probably has tributaries. Harad probably has some oases and wells further out in the desert, if you go by the Sahara analogously, but the Nile is a very strong river that has a very long flow to it. The Harnen might have a delta. Further, Far Harad, where our oliphaunts come from, must necessarily have some water sources to support such large creatures, whether that be through watering holes and rivers; I think the Devs have suggested a jungle down there, so if that's so, then yes, rivers.

Also, in areas like Khand, maybe some rivers flow that way out of the sea of Nurnen, and maybe there's similar stories as far as Rhun goes RE- water sources (*I keep thinking of the Black Sea or Caspian Sea whenever I think of Rhun).

By the way, I'm not quite sure where some are getting this idea that the Easterlings dwell - only east - of the inland Sea of Rhun. I'd ask for a source - a direct quote from one of Tolkien's actual works that proves this point (*and not from a secondary website). I may learn - and am open to learning - something new :)

Cheers! :D

*convos about the East of Middle Earth, I lurk, and wait, and faintly hope :P*

I'm just going to say this... definitely not on the side of own personal boats for landscape travel. I see no actual point to it game wise.
Yes, boats and the ocean are inherently completely part of the legendarium of Tolkien's work, beyond a canoe/kayak/rowboat... how would that even work in game. What purpose would it serve? Especially in a combat situation? It just plain wouldn't.
So beyond just traveling/sightseeing (both worthy endeavors true!) it would be a ton of work for no benefit beyond what swimming in game already does, or just walking along the coast. I'd prefer the boats in Lotro stay as they are a fast-travel system.

Our characters would never get to physically landscape control the large boats needed for a ship to ship combat, that would require a boat full of npcs. I can instances involving boat combat (as we sort of have in a couple places already) but nothing freely on the landscape.

As for whats next, and the salt water clue, we have 3 seas and 3 possibilities, Belegaer the Great, and the 2 remnants of the sea created by the "Northern Lamp": The Sea of Nurn, and The Sea or Rhun.

I'd love South Gondor (and even Far West Gondor) into Umbar. It seems likely to me as it closes off a long standing threat and storylines tyinging directly into Gondorian and Numenorian history.

Nurn would be great as well, Mordor does need to be secured and there are a LOT of loose threads that direction.

Rhun/Dorwinion/Lands of the Easterling, also a good direction, with Karazar and all the Easterlings, the disease, and the earthquakes.

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Originally Posted by Feral_Yoda

I'm just going to say this... definitely not on the side of own personal boats for landscape travel. I see no actual point to it game wise.

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To each their own... but seriously: efficient water travel = quests on waters (fishermen in their boats, larger ships with NPCs that you can go on board of, scouting in a boat across rivers, gathering things on the surface of waters IN A PLEASERUS WAY NOT ANNOYING, maybe some fishing), boat races/events, maybe boat oriented hobby, boat outfitting, more impressive things that can be done with bodies of water for zone design in particular around coast, for islands, can travel a bit further from the coast etc (because, you know, you have a means to efficiently travel and explore, whether land /water, so more possibilities here), plus, if they finally start introducing some free-roaming sources of XP to accommodate free-roaming across Middle-earth, boats and rivers would be perfect for that kind of thing too

As for combat, if that's the only justification you might actually see for boats, I believe combat wouldn't be completely out of the realm of possibility either (but isn't essential). Having a small boat and going against something like a larger ship or sea creature wouldn't be much different than going against a Mumak (with its own crew on its back) in a land (or mounted) combat. In fact, could work better than mounted ever did. Also, a new mechanic like this is not exactly bad for the game, if ever feasable... we've been stuck with same same everything for many many years and not even a new combat ability.

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Originally Posted by Feral_Yoda

I'd love South Gondor (and even Far West Gondor) into Umbar. It seems likely to me as it closes off a long standing threat and storylines tyinging directly into Gondorian and Numenorian history.

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But that's what I've been saying though- it doesn't "close off" anything, and certainly not any threat/military plot thread. Lore says Aragorn actually reconquered Umbar, so that's more conflict to come that way and army needed to do that, not something the game can solve right now at this point on the timeline.

Nurn and Rhun sound much better, because these can actually be solved - in terms of what they have going on with the game's plots we've been introduced to, and there are tons of those, which make me more eager to see those rather than wait another X years for a glimpse of those (and we've been already waiting for quite some time since Mordor...).

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

To each their own... but seriously: efficient water travel = quests on waters (fishermen in their boats, larger ships with NPCs that you can go on board of, scouting in a boat across rivers, gathering things on the surface of waters IN A PLEASERUS WAY NOT ANNOYING, maybe some fishing), boat races/events, maybe boat oriented hobby, boat outfitting, more impressive things that can be done with bodies of water for zone design in particular around coast, for islands, can travel a bit further from the coast etc (because, you know, you have a means to efficiently travel and explore, whether land /water, so more possibilities here), plus, if they finally start introducing some free-roaming sources of XP to accommodate free-roaming across Middle-earth, boats and rivers would be perfect for that kind of thing too

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Yes to each their own. Not really trying to argue with you, just throwing my 2 cents in.

Each of those aren't adding anything new to the game though. Its just a "reskin" (basically speaking, not in actuallity) of most everything that is already being done, either on horseback or foot. For no real gain game-wise. Its pretty "fluff" (not always a bad thing sure, but usually not necessary).

Horse-races are already a thing, plus there are no large enough bodies of water in a safe enough area for boat races.

Fishing? You can do that almost anywhere there's a bit of water, from puddles, to fountains, to ocean rocks and everything in between.

Outfitting... again see the warhorse.

Gathering? driftwood? maybe but it'll wash up on shore.

I'm a huge explorer, ranging at times well beyond the regular routes and deep into the wilds on my own. But seriously whats out there in the open water? This isn't D&D and without the ability to swim down and breathe the water... we aren't going to explore anything on the open water, or below it. That's all lost beneath the waves. Its just emptyness. Anything that needs to be done out there would best be done in an instance.

And at the moment it is already an effiecient means of fast traveling (at least on the brandywine/evendim corridor). And could (and is in Belfalas, Forochel and Gondor) used to jump (portal wise) between ships/islands/across rivers.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

As for combat, if that's the only justification you might actually see for boats, I believe combat wouldn't be completely out of the realm of possibility either (but isn't essential). Having a small boat and going against something like a larger ship or sea creature wouldn't be much different than going against a Mumak (with its own crew on its back) in a land (or mounted) combat. In fact, could work better than mounted ever did. Also, a new mechanic like this is not exactly bad for the game, if ever feasable... we've been stuck with same same everything for many many years and not even a new combat ability.

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Back when Warhorses first showed up, i was one of the folks jumping off mine to tackle everything. One of the necessities of being a Guard i guess. I did not find horse combat all that fun, and spent most of my time on the regular steed by the time West Rohan was out.

Boat combat outside of an instance encounter is not something i'm eager to even see. And would actually dread seeing in the game.

I'd much prefer the game just stick to the shores for landscape. Anything else, an instance.

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Originally Posted by Feral_Yoda

Each of those aren't adding anything new to the game though. Its just a "reskin" (basically speaking, not in actuallity) of most everything that is already being done, either on horseback or foot. For no real gain game-wise. Its pretty "fluff" (not always a bad thing sure, but usually not necessary).

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To each their own, yeah, but when you put it that way, then almost anything in the game doesn't add anything new to the game because it's just fluff but no real gain game-wise. I mean, I would rather see boats and something build around that than another set of 20+ missions years from now, at which time we'll have some 500+ of them in the game or something :P Or, at the very least, I wish that for every 10 missions (=instanced spaces/dungeons they first gotta craft for those) they released 10 free-roam landscape activities on landscapes that already exist

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Originally Posted by Feral_Yoda

And at the moment it is already an effiecient means of fast traveling (at least on the brandywine/evendim corridor). And could (and is in Belfalas, Forochel and Gondor) used to jump (portal wise) between ships/islands/across rivers.

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I don't care much for more fast travel boat connections, what's the point, if I can just magically zap into almost any place with my travel skills? One might say RP but surely one could have a much better RP with an actual boat, not a teleport. I liked Belfalas/Gondor questing and a few islands/ships (with teleports we got) as a one-time thing but otherwise I loathe those, never actually visited these more isolated islands, I think. If you can't reach them naturally, it's just not the same (read: slow swimming is annoying and camera is super low in the water which makes it extra annoying if you wanna get a nice first person view). But to travel alongside the entire coast of Middle-earth in a boat (someday), now that would be fun :D

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

To each their own, yeah, but when you put it that way, then almost anything in the game doesn't add anything new to the game because it's just fluff but no real gain game-wise. I mean, I would rather see boats and something build around that than another set of 20+ missions years from now, at which time we'll have some 500+ of them in the game or something :P Or, at the very least, I wish that for every 10 missions (=instanced spaces/dungeons they first gotta craft for those) they released 10 free-roam landscape activities on landscapes that already exist

I don't care much for more fast travel boat connections, what's the point, if I can just magically zap into almost any place with my travel skills? One might say RP but surely one could have a much better RP with an actual boat, not a teleport. I liked Belfalas/Gondor questing and a few islands/ships (with teleports we got) as a one-time thing but otherwise I loathe those, never actually visited these more isolated islands, I think. If you can't reach them naturally, it's just not the same (read: slow swimming is annoying and camera is super low in the water which makes it extra annoying if you wanna get a nice first person view). But to travel alongside the entire coast of Middle-earth in a boat (someday), now that would be fun :D

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Missions or landscape quests both are fine with me. I find both enjoyable.

Fast travel is a necessity. It saves immense amount of travel time, especially for those of us with time constraints and who can't always play as long as we want too. When i do have the time i do enjoy riding the long way and manually.

But nothing would take me out of the game MORE than seeing a full flotilla (or even two) of players boating up and down or in circles on the rivers, streams, lakes, and ponds (or even the ocean) in gaudy boats. As for the swimming, i've never had a problem with it, even when it was the only way across Everswim back in the day.

Most importantly, boats would take away one of the few good natural barriers we have in the game. Rather than invisible walls on hills and rocks we should be able to climb, a river, lake or ocean is a good barrier for the edge of a map. Sure you can swim out from Gondor, i have. you'll hit that barrier or the death wall between some of the islands if you manage to slip past it... but its a nice border, and boats would also ruin that. Same as watching someone ride their horse into the ones on the hills and mountainsides endlessly.

You can misconstrue what i mean by fluff all you want. Taken to the extremes any argument becomes silly. I still and probably never will see the point. But this isn't the topic of the thread, so i'll just stop responding on this topic here.

As far as I'm concerned, we already have plenty of cosmetic pets and mounts a lot more outlandish than any boat they might conceive of.

I find the matter quite simple: a matter of lore.

Do characters ride horses in LOTR? Yes. Therefore, we have mounts.

Do characters ride or row boats in LOTR? Yes- the Fellowship does, Gondor has a fleet, Umbar has a fleet. Therefore, we should have boats - with reasonable boundaries. GW2's waters still have map boundaries - and they have boats now; it's not an issue for them, nor would it be an issue in LOTRO.

If anything, being able to row from the Reikvoss down to Sarn Gebir and Rauros would be an amazing dream of mine to fulfill - and then from the bottom of Rauros out to Pelargir and out to sea. Absolutely- please count me on board for that.

It would also encourage filling-in more "sea gaps" - like between West Gondor and Celondim, for example, hint hint - speaking of "filling in gaps" in the map.

Cheers! :D

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Originally Posted by Phantion

As far as I'm concerned, we already have plenty of cosmetic pets and mounts a lot more outlandish than any boat they might conceive of.

I find the matter quite simple: a matter of lore.

Do characters ride horses in LOTR? Yes. Therefore, we have mounts.

Do characters ride or row boats in LOTR? Yes- the Fellowship does, Gondor has a fleet, Umbar has a fleet. Therefore, we should have boats - with reasonable boundaries. GW2's waters still have map boundaries - and they have boats now; it's not an issue for them, nor would it be an issue in LOTRO.

If anything, being able to row from the Reikvoss down to Sarn Gebir and Rauros would be an amazing dream of mine to fulfill - and then from the bottom of Rauros out to Pelargir and out to sea. Absolutely- please count me on board for that.

It would also encourage filling-in more "sea gaps" - like between West Gondor and Celondim, for example, hint hint - speaking of "filling in gaps" in the map.

Cheers! :D

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Ok last last comment.
Sure the fellowship, had some boats from Lorien for a few days... they didn't drag those boats up out of the water and through Rohan, or under the White Mountains... they left them behind. A horse can follow you on its own... a boat cannot.
And anything larger than a rowboat/canoe/kayak would be game breaking and imho lore breaking. Would i mind an animated travel via boat from dock to dock like the stable-masters... not at all, but individual boats just seems wrong to me.
Also because one game does it, doesn't mean Lotro should, by that argument we should have flying mounts (no we should not ride eagles or dragons either) and any number of other things.
But yeah i'm not going to convince anyone who wants it to happen.

Sea Gaps are fine... but lets leave those to instances please.

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Originally Posted by Feral_Yoda

Fast travel is a necessity. It saves immense amount of travel time, especially for those of us with time constraints and who can't always play as long as we want too. When i do have the time i do enjoy riding the long way and manually.

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Yeah, but I meant more like we already have well-functioning, practical swift travel options, by providing more swift travel connections via dock masters, you don't really achieve anything at all. (now that's fluff, and I would very much welcome more practical connections/teleports between zones where these are so painfully missing)

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Originally Posted by Feral_Yoda

Most importantly, boats would take away one of the few good natural barriers we have in the game. Rather than invisible walls on hills and rocks we should be able to climb, a river, lake or ocean is a good barrier for the edge of a map.

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Any game that does have things like boats or other means of transportation though waters has invisible walls though - they're usually pushed a little bit further from shores, far enough so you aren't even tempted to sail that far

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Originally Posted by Phantion

It would also encourage filling-in more "sea gaps" - like between West Gondor and Celondim, for example, hint hint - speaking of "filling in gaps" in the map.

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Yeah, apart from aforementioned Umbar and the entire coast of Harad which might be further than Umbar if we ever explore the place very thoroughly, Lindon, its bay and how it might connect eventually with West of Gondor will be such a wonder to behold in the game at some point. There is still plenty to do and fill in of course, but if we speak "proportions" - then we're more equally distributed between land/"coast" land options to choose from, more than ever. Evendim, Laketown, Forochel and Belfalas/Central Gondor are the only regions that ever gave us a glimpse of larger bodies of water - and even then, the first three are either old school SSG design (not something of their "modern approach" ) or with vastly limited approach (like the Long Lake, with these fake barriers all around), and Gondor parts were largely focused around Corsair land invasion/plundering, narratively (rather than taking advantage of the sea as a landscape feature with some iconic seaside cliffs, beaches, sand dunes, wondrous cove caves etc), plus a huge portion of it was delegated to housing which was developed at a later date, so the two "sea areas" were separated at first. But going into coastal regions again... there is tremendous potential here!

If I were to "rate" the coastal potential of regions, it would be Nurn, more of Forochel (for some cool glacier stuff), then the rest of Northern coasts, then Rhun, THEN, as crown jewels, Andrast and Eryn Vorn (which are very characteristic), every mouth of a river (Baranduin, Gwathlo, Isen, Lefnui, that the devs might do something cooler with maybe, visually, but to keep them "in line" just don't make them as wide as Anduin), then the long coast of Harad with Umbarian bay, and everything around Lindon plus Tol Fuin... That's... A LOT. Contrary to what others may say, the potential increases tenfold if you can actually design all this knowing your player might just hop on a boat to explore and do some quests like that too. Without boats, they are simply not going to go wild with any complex, coastal nooks and crannies, or things accessible from the waters under harsh coastal cliffs, because it's just hard to design without constant stupidly looking boat teleports all over the place (and confusing at that) or annoyance from your players if you just tell them "now swim everywhere!" (which, by the way, isn't that immersive either, whereas on a boat would be)

But yeah, excited for all these regions! Imagine the entire coast full one day... and, theoretically, if the boats were ever possible, you could not only have the coast connect but also the seas - with a direct line from shores of Anfalas to Umbar, perhaps... I mean, what do they lose? I guess it's not that hard to fill a space with just water. Sure, technically sea travel here would happen mostly along the coasts (especially if you're on a boat lol) but gameplay wise that's not a bad idea to push the invisible wall further and give players some space, if all of these land shores are ever connected, not a bad idea to have an entire separate zone called Bay of Belfalas or Belegaer to make it all such an open-world (that's the kind of player hosted racing I mean... not something small like Evendim lol). Also, I very much would love if they did scattered islands/archipelago approach somewhere, if they can geographically justify it somehow

they don't have the technology for water quests, as they are intended in this thread, the best we'll ever get are the pelargir-style quests, which is frankly very disappointing. Unless devs pull a magic trick out of their hats, but that ain't gonna happen

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Originally Posted by Phantion

The Harnen probably has tributaries. Harad probably has some oases and wells further out in the desert, if you go by the Sahara analogously, but the Nile is a very strong river that has a very long flow to it. The Harnen might have a delta. Further, Far Harad, where our oliphaunts come from, must necessarily have some water sources to support such large creatures, whether that be through watering holes and rivers; I think the Devs have suggested a jungle down there, so if that's so, then yes, rivers.

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Its only Near Harard is a desert, Far Harard is sub-Saharan Africa with jungles(in actual canon)

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Originally Posted by Phantion

By the way, I'm not quite sure where some are getting this idea that the Easterlings dwell - only east - of the inland Sea of Rhun. I'd ask for a source - a direct quote from one of Tolkien's actual works that proves this point (*and not from a secondary website). I may learn - and am open to learning - something new

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No one said Easterlings dwel only east of the sea of Rhun. I personally only said that the area of Rhun is to the east of the sea.


Anyways, this is roughly what I would like to see for LOTRO in the future. Now obviously maps are not all perfect rectangles, and they aren't all the same size, and this doesn't take into account expansion maps like Gorgoroth which are larger, but this is a rough outline of the new areas I would like to see added in the next 7-8 years.

https://i.imgur.com/rVC1HFc.png

Nearly 10 months on from the start of this thread, a lot has changed when considering some of the initial suggestions I and others made. Cardo-Swan is the biggest and has made a lot more seem possible - but Yondershire was also introduced during this time and opens up other potential ‘filling in the gaps’ areas for the future. For the devs - thank you for taking the time to really expand and improve Eriador - the open world feeling of LOTRO has always been amazing, but it is now second to none. However, I can still dream of even more!

Here is my list (without pictures this time) or gaps that I would still like to see filled, in order of priority:

1) Upper Bindbole Wood: Starting with a small one, brought around by the introduction of the Yondershire. This area between Bindbole Wood and the Rushock Bog to the south and the Old Links to the north is actually a substantial amount of territory which, if added, would provide amazing views over the Shire itself. I know that SSG had plans to add this with Yondershire but ran out of time - I’m hoping it is revisited.

2) Rhudaur: a combination of three zones I previously proposed (Weather Marches, Goblins of Mount Gram, Remnants of Rhudaur - called Ettendale by Varghedin). Initially I thought these zones might be too big to do together, yet considering the size of Cardo-Swan, these three elements together are not actually that huge (probably a similar size to the Yondershire). PvE version of the Ettenmoors, routes to the Misty Mountains, Gabilshathur, the Lonelands and Rhunelad in the North Downs all essential please!

3) Lune Rushes: This is the name given to the region to the west of Evendim by Varghedin’s map. Nothing more than a twinkle in the eye before the Yondershire, this region has now becoming a possibility. There are three options here - either one giant region spreading from Thorin’s Gate, up to Forochel and Frostbluff, connecting up to Evendim to the east and the Yondershire to the south, or opting for half of this going either east to west (along the top of Ered Luin to Thorin’s Gate, south to Yondershire, west to Evendim) or north to south (staying to the east of the Lune, going as far north as Lansi-Ma in Forochel). If the mega region proves too big to go in one go, I’d choose the last option and then look to see Northern Ered Luin in the future. Whatever form this zone takes, I’m hoping to have some sweeping vistas down into Evendim (which we were denied in the Yondershire!)

4) The Deepwood: This one feels like an easy win. Connect up the foresty bits of the Wells of Langflood, the Grey Mountains and Northern Mirkwood, stick in some wood trolls and make travelling through the zone much more organic (rather than the strangely funnelled version that we got in Eryn Lasgalen).

5) The Eastern Misty Mountains: A big one (which might potentially need to divide into a few pieces?) but important for filling in some big gaps and make sense of some odd past decisions. Stretching from the Balewood in the south (which itself needs a connection into Fangorn), filling in the area near Amdan in the Dimrill Dale, linking up to the Redhorn Pass (thanks to the Further Adventures), and stretching north up to the Gladdenmere (or the Wolf Denes if feeling very ambitious!). Add in all of the mountain pass connectors, rationalise those that don’t make sense, and have a massively more cohesive world. A few more connections into Goblin Town/Moria from atop the mountains wouldn’t hurt either!) The core of this zone is the ‘Peaks of the Misty Mountains’ zone I mentioned previously (from Amdan up to Gladdenmere), with the rest as bonuses!

There are more, but these are the ones that stand out to the most as being needed to fill in the most glaring current gaps in the world.

for the position they are in and the regions that would surround them, all the areas you listed would have to be low level zones. While I'm all for map completion, I think we've had enough lowbie zones, and moving forward what the game needs is content post 50 to cap regions. Minhiriath itself could be a post 50 zone, and of course, the rest of the East for higher levels

These gaps are all interesting no doubt given the game's unlimited run time but personally I would just focus on the really really glaring gaps that are actual gaps first (rather than bits of untraversable terrain/difficult terrain).

The Shire missing part certainly has merit, but I wouldn't really be that concerned about the missing Mirkwood, for example. As I suggested elsewhere, it would help a lot if they introduced a teleport between the lake in Northern Mirkwood and Thornholt in Grey Mountains, for now, but otherwise, apart from Woodtrolls, there is nothing super interesting (or needed for lvl range) to physically go there, compared with other prospects we have. And then, with that one critical teleport connection, it wouldn't be THAT jarring either, because the Vales of Anduin are, well, vales, so you wouldn't have such easy access points on the entire border, especially into heavily dense place such as Mirkwood (like, maybe Radagast knows some secret ways, but we don't :P) + from the North, there are mountains, so understandably not something that ought to provide access point. But this area definitely needs at least one more connection in the North-Western direction (and maybe Southern to, as a teleport to Mirkwood). I mean, sure, would it be cool to have more land covered and some invisible walls down? Always, but in this case hardly super essential.

I agree that behind Balewood, between Fangorn, Amdan and Great River, is a great zone to have and a glaring gap (also, ideal East Rohan alternative that you could potentially pass into from a new pass next to Isengard's dam). But I don't really get it, you make it sound like you wanna have all the Eastern mountains somehow traversable?

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Originally Posted by Tirian-Hammerfist

linking up to the Redhorn Pass (thanks to the Further Adventures), and stretching north up to the Gladdenmere (or the Wolf Denes if feeling very ambitious!). Add in all of the mountain pass connectors, rationalise those that don’t make sense, and have a massively more cohesive world.

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They can't make it any better because there will always be a teleport between Rhovanion and Eriador maps. The pass in the Further Adventures is cool and I wish it was added to the game somehow - so, maybe at least try to attach it physically (copy over) to the start of the pass near Kidzul-kalah, I think there is physical space on the Rhovanion map in that direction to make it work? And then put a teleport a little bit further on that long, winding pass, so the RP is neat. But it depends on how difficult it might actually be. But otherwise the mountains are fine and the existing connections are fine. The only new one that could be made that makes a lot of sense would be one more behind the Angmarim town in Elderslade (also teleport, naturally) and that may lead up to Northern Misties. Oh, and of course, for traversable, there is a possibility that Iron Pass may be extended into a fully fledged zone someday. But we definitely don't need any traversable mountains (it's not even that realistic), we just need to complete the mountains with this missing gap in the backyard of Fangorn (which may include some orc fortresses). The functioning connection from the Goblin-town to the Vales (and vice versa) would have been great too, hmm, if if it's too complex with the entire instanced quest space locked behind the door, maybe just make that connection happen through teleport items.

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Originally Posted by miriadel

for the position they are in and the regions that would surround them, all the areas you listed would have to be low level zones. While I'm all for map completion, I think we've had enough lowbie zones, and moving forward what the game needs is content post 50 to cap regions. Minhiriath itself could be a post 50 zone, and of course, the rest of the East for higher levels

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I feel like theres room for several more pre-50 zones in Eriador. Not right now OFC, since they've spent the last like year adding those, but several years down the line wouldn't be bad. But the South Farthing, the 3 Grey Havens areas, the spot between Forochel and Angmar, the northern Erid Luin and the Lune Rushes, etc are all logical 50/pre-50 areas.

The problem with Eriador in general is that there's really not much room for higher level zones that make sense as higher level zones. Post 50 zones are Moria+ zones, and outside of escorting the Grey Company down to Rohan by going through Dunland, theres not much reason for us to go back to Eriador after level 50 when the issues in Rohan, Gondor, Mordor, etc. are far more pressing. Though a 140+ Iron Pass map that connects to Angmar makes easy sense.

Not to mention the established canon that Enedwaith is uninhabited outside of Dunland, and Minhiriath is likewise abandoned outside a very small group of wood folk in the Eryn Vorn. Which constitutes the vast bulk of the remaining area of Eriador.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

They can't make it any better because there will always be a teleport between Rhovanion and Eriador maps.

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Isn't the teleport needed because of the "two Isengards" situation?

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

Isn't the teleport needed because of the "two Isengards" situation?

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Technically, a teleport is always needed between "mega open-world maps" (Eriador, Rhovanion with Rohan, Mordor with bits of After Gondor, Gondor) because these are on separate world/terrain layers, technically, and can't make seamless transition. If the second Isengard didn't exist, then you would need to have a teleport from Rhovanion layer to regular Isengard on Eriador layer (though would have been narratively off... since it's at its prime, not destroyed)

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

Not to mention the established canon that Enedwaith is uninhabited outside of Dunland, and Minhiriath is likewise abandoned outside a very small group of wood folk in the Eryn Vorn. Which constitutes the vast bulk of the remaining area of Eriador.

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Btw, I would say they're definitely "setting up" something with these areas, not in a big "yes, definitely we go there!" way, but more in a "yeah, maybe if we go there, here are some cool bits that may relate to that." WATCH OUT SPOILER (but it's not really such a big spoiler, so no worry!) there is a reformed "brigand" in Cardolan who framed it somehow confusingly, but from the looks of things they're not exactly just brigands, but were soldiers once, so maybe they're all (or mostly?) deserters? (Since these captains were already captains - apparently - before they started serving the Wizard) Whatever trouble is "brewing South" they're actually so eager to escape from is quite elusive too. I mean, idk, maybe these are deserters from Gondor, maybe from Rohan too, though still unclear. (and even if they were from Gondor, that's kinda off in a way, since Anfalas and the distant Western reaches shouldn't really be that populated and are relatively further from war dangers?) But they clearly came from the direction of Minhiriath, it would seem.

(BTW, why I say this might be somehow indicative of something would be because I think it is the first time the "Southerners" situation has really been addressed in the game? Whereas in the old content it was always just "ba ha ha brigands and loyal Sharkey men!" ? Unless I'm wrong and just forgot about something)

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Technically, a teleport is always needed between "mega open-world maps" (Eriador, Rhovanion with Rohan, Mordor with bits of After Gondor, Gondor) because these are on separate world/terrain layers, technically, and can't make seamless transition. If the second Isengard didn't exist, then you would need to have a teleport from Rhovanion layer to regular Isengard on Eriador layer (though would have been narratively off... since it's at its prime, not destroyed)

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Ahh that's right. I had forgotten that there was a load screen between Rohan and Gondor. I knew there was one at the Path of the Dead, but I had forgotten until reading this that even the overland route has a forced load screen between the Beacon Hills and the Eastfold.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Btw, I would say they're definitely "setting up" something with these areas, not in a big "yes, definitely we go there!" way, but more in a "yeah, maybe if we go there, here are some cool bits that may relate to that." WATCH OUT SPOILER (but it's not really such a big spoiler, so no worry!) there is a reformed "brigand" in Cardolan who framed it somehow confusingly, but from the looks of things they're not exactly just brigands, but were soldiers once, so maybe they're all (or mostly?) deserters? (Since these captains were already captains - apparently - before they started serving the Wizard) Whatever trouble is "brewing South" they're actually so eager to escape from is quite elusive too. I mean, idk, maybe these are deserters from Gondor, maybe from Rohan too, though still unclear. (and even if they were from Gondor, that's kinda off in a way, since Anfalas and the distant Western reaches shouldn't really be that populated and are relatively further from war dangers?) But they clearly came from the direction of Minhiriath, it would seem.

(BTW, why I say this might be somehow indicative of something would be because I think it is the first time the "Southerners" situation has really been addressed in the game? Whereas in the old content it was always just "ba ha ha brigands and loyal Sharkey men!" ? Unless I'm wrong and just forgot about something)

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Mentions of "the south" just lead me to believe they're from Rohan and Gondor. Like how when people talk of the "American south" they generally mean the south-east -> south-center. From like the Carolinas/Florida to Texas, and not places like Arizona, and New Mexico, which are also in the southern half of the U.S. I don't think they exactly come from the literal direct south(Anfalas), just the "southern" nations of Rohan and Gondor. Just like Arnor wasn't "the northwest Kingdom" it was just "the northern Kingdom", most people don't tend to speak in the ultra literal. I'm sure that if someone from Rohan/Gondor went north, and told people they were from "the south" people would know they mean anywhere in Gondor/Rohan.

One thing I'd like to see though is either:

A- Some updates to the brigand models to make it clearer where they originally may have come from - not talking about their clothes or their weather-beaten looks; talking about the face-sculpts of their places of origin.

OR

B- A better accounting for their origins. Yes, the lore makes it look like they came from Gondor and Rohan. But the NPC models don't look like Gondorian or Rohirric people at all - not even by a longshot, and especially not the ones with those trimmed mustaches. They look like they stepped out of an American Western with swords and knives instead of pistols and shotguns - and without the cowboy hats. But they just . . . don't really fit any of the peoples we've encountered outside of Bree-land itself.

I think they need some re-envisioning. I think the brigands out in Great River / the Wold at least look / feel like they're ex-Rohirrim and fit a little more. But the others just feel like they came from "somewhere" - without any identifiable point of origin, as far as they look in-game. They've got the weather-beaten wanderer look a bit right - the "man without a name" trope - but they're missing any kind of a lead of where they migrated from / what peoples they originally belonged to before they left.

Part of this just might be the game's age. They made the Gondorians and Rohirric models much better with later tech. But as of right now, the brigand models just look / feel random and generic. I had hoped that Cardoswan might clarify some of this, but they really haven't. Just more random brigand camps between Dunland and Bree that still don't give us any sense of who they were before they abandoned their lands of origin and deserted.

Maybe that's the point - but it's not a point I feel works very well in a world like Middle-earth where most folks and where they came from are fleshed-out; the Bree-landers just think of them as ruffians and wayfarers - and have no idea where they came from. But I don't know: I think there should be more visual tell-tales for those who do eventually quest in southern Middle-earth. I feel like they did a much better job with those fleeing Dunland; I can tell they're Dunlendings and know who they are and why they're fleeing, and it makes a ton more sense.

I feel like the original brigand models just work for the Black-Wolds: folks who are Bree-landers who went rogue. That's who those models feel like the most. I could buy that story - and that Saruman recruited them. But as vagrants fleeing southern Middle-earth: no, I can't tell they came from Gondor or Rohan based on how they look; their face-sculpts are fundamentally different. They don't look like "dirty, rough-and-tumble deserters from Gondor and Rohan." They just look dirty, rough-and-tumble... from somewhere??????? I've always found it strange that "generic brigand" NPC models just use foundationally different faces from the folks in lands they apparently come from (*including those brigands in Eastern Rohan). It's like: Why do those brigands always have to look like some completely different ethnicity of humans when they apparently come from the lands they're pillaging? Makes no sense to me. If you're from Rohan, even if you're wearing brigand clothes and a deserter, you should still look like you were born in Rohan. If you're from Gondor, even if you're a brigand, rough deserter, you should still look like you're from Gondor. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Cheers! :D

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Originally Posted by miriadel

for the position they are in and the regions that would surround them, all the areas you listed would have to be low level zones. While I'm all for map completion, I think we've had enough lowbie zones, and moving forward what the game needs is content post 50 to cap regions. Minhiriath itself could be a post 50 zone, and of course, the rest of the East for higher levels

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A good point - end game regions are definitely needed and I don’t think SSG would introduce any of these as end game regions. However, the jump up to a level 50-60 region in Rhudaur, for example, wouldn’t be too painful - new players who wandered too far north out of the Trollshaws or the Lonelands would still have the chance to run away, rather than being 1 shotted by a level 140!

As for the Misties zone, this could be set at any level for the adjoining regions - it could be as low as 60 for the Dimrill Dale (although there are already three alternatives between 60 and 65), 85+ to link to the Balewood or up to 130 to link to the Vales of the Anduin (I’ll admit this is logistically quite hard if the region is as big as I’ve suggested, given the adjoining level ranges are so huge!)

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Originally Posted by Tirian-Hammerfist

However, the jump up to a level 50-60 region in Rhudaur, for example, wouldn’t be too painful

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I'm really not against any lvl jumps between regions in Eriador when in good, well-isolated spots, that have potential narratively as end game (so anything around Angmar and Forochel, or Grey Havens and Lindon). But with Rhudaur and this glaring gap, even though something like 50-70 is OK with lower lvl players here, it really does not feel like it makes sense at this range narratively - the deaths of Mordirith, Mordrambor and Amarthiel are really this massive moment when it says 'yep, they're finished for now, and Angmar stops being such an active threat' so a perfect moment to transition a character to different places, like the story has done with having us go to Moria. Narratively, the Rhudaur/Mt Gram sound like they should be extensions of surrounding level ranges, so anything between 30-50 with "modernized" Goblin-town experience in Mt Gram, lead up/context for the Moors and have it forge an additional "difficult" route to Angmar through the backyard of Gabilshathur. And, as much as I would love to see some of these other gaps/cool areas such as Northen Ered Luin filled in... that's really enough for 1-50, if they deal with Rhudaur. Next, alternative to Moria, Rohan.

Messing around at the southern edge of Tharbad I noticed something far in the distance down river.
There is at least one Corsair ship in the distance, just around a bend of the Greyflood.

Wuut, what. My first thought is bug if you're not joking. But then again...

If it's like some independent pirates looking for treasure, I guess 1 or 2 ships and its crew *could* be involved in some potential Minhiriath/Enedwaith storylines... or something? Though maybe that's just some easter egg, they're probably not developing these areas now