Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

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Originally Posted by seekingerin

I kind of wonder if the plan at some point was to take it there next, but real-world events made it weird. Vidja games are an escape for a lot of people, and I'm not sure how much of an escape it would be for us to explore an inland sea nestled among the steppes that has been ravaged by a pandemic while age-old tensions between pseudo-Slavic peoples burst into the open. :/

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quite a bit on the nose, yes. I'd certainly love to see Kineland and beyond though.

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Originally Posted by seekingerin

If we're returning to the epic storyline, where do we stand? The war ended a few weeks ago, and a mysterious man has reemerged from the mists of legend, been crowned king, and married a strange elven woman. There are probably three things on Aragorn's mind right now. His war-ravaged kingdom needs to rebuild; he needs to introduce himself to his people, especially those in the far reaches of Gondor; and he needs to ensure that his borders are secure and the war is truly over. So he goes on a goodwill tour, and we accompany him, helping people as we can, because that's what we do. (And yes, we never hear about this in the books; but we also never hear about Legolas and Gimli's adventures in Mordor, or Gandalf's trip to Erebor, or the fact that the dwarves have a whole friggin' war in Gundabad.) That takes us to Anfalas, with some stops in Central and Western Gondor (the "familiar spaces" Scenario referred to).

While we're there, the corsairs attack, because Aragorn never made peace with them the way he did with the Haradrim and Easterlings (I'm guessing, at least; the corsairs wouldn't have been involved in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.) Umbar has millennia-old beef with Gondor; the Black Numenoreans have been stirring up trouble all over Middle Earth; and in real-world history piracy tends to thrive in the aftermath of war, when sailors involved in the war turn to other means of supporting themselves. It makes sense that they wouldn't back down as the Haradrim and Easterlings. So we investigate on Aragorn's behalf and find out that the Corsairs have been using Tolfalas, a mostly-uninhabited island, as a staging ground for their raids. Aragorn can't send an army marching to Umbar without provoking the Haradrim, who he's just made peace with; so we and a few others who Aragorn trusts go south to sabotage Umbar as best we can. Along the way, we deal with the Haradrim and learn about the complexities of their world. We don't know much about Harad; it may not be a unified, centralized empire, but a collection of distinct peoples with different ideologies, much like we've learned that the various peoples of Rhun are very different from one another. There may be rivalries between the different states or ethnic groups of Harad. There may be opportunistic rebels who've taken action while the army was distracted by the war. There may be factions or leaders vying for power. Some groups might still be loyal to Sauron; some might never have willingly allied themselves with Sauron; some might be allied with the Umbarrim. Some people will want to accept Aragorn's offer of peace; but some old soldiers never stop fighting, and will resent a peace treaty. There might be Black Numenoreans manipulating people behind the scenes, or one of the Gurzyul might be up to mischief. The devs seem to love this sort of storytelling, if their handling of the Lossoth, the Dunlendings, the peoples of Rhun, and the various factions of dwarves are any indication. There are endless possibilities for interesting stories on the road to Umbar, and plenty of potential for us to get into conflict along the way.

So I don't think it matters that we haven't seen much setup for a southward journey. It's easy to build up the story as you go.

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It certainly can be easily driven, nice work on yours btw. Also the whole Thorongil story can be incorporated in there.

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Originally Posted by seekingerin

The existing Haradrim cultural assets give them a bit of a head start too. And this, of course, is assuming that the artists haven't already been at work making new assets with the knowledge that this is coming. As for the graphics update, it sounds like they're working with an external company on that, so I'm not sure how much of SSG's existing art team is involved in that.

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I think we should assume their artists have been working on wherever the new Epic takes us, while we had our year long foray into Eriador.

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Originally Posted by seekingerin

ETA: Forgot to mention that the Heirs of Castamir, a direct reference to Umbar, were mentioned in the first book of Vollume V, but without much development or any resolution. That seems like another hint that the story will be moving us to Umbar. Volume V is called "The Peace of Middle Earth"; that could mean that the overarching theme of the volume will be safeguarding the peace, in which case I think a focus on Harad would make sense.

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Nice shout. Umbar certainly seems the most likely since they've specifically stated Mithlond won't be for a long time. I'd put money on it.

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Originally Posted by Phantion

making Eriador feel far more wide and open so far to me has been a great positive! It's a relief to not feel like I'm on a Disney World ride and these are the "railroad tracks" the ride goes through!

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It *is* open yes... and it's amazing! Although I wouldn't say no railroad tracks - if you count quests/XP gains, you're pretty much on landscape railroads 90% of the time, so yep, here comes the dissonance. I really don't care on my first playthrough tbh (though there are certainly modern players who would) but having these open spaces expand now, such a huge world and running an alt.. is just too apparent. Although, for first playthrough, if something like those scattered hard-to-stumble-upon Cardolan non-hub-NPCs/quests were actually easier to run into right at key landscape spots... now that would make the first-time experience even cooler too :D

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Originally Posted by Phantion

I think we can pretty much narrow it down to Umbar, Nurn, or a complete surprise none of us can foresee. We know, at least, there are no Dol Guldor-ish roads in Lindon! Hehehehehe! ;)

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To be honest, if it's retextured/recolored somehow... the road can be used anywhere I guess. I don't have it too clearly in my mind right now but overall it's just a cobblestone road no. My impression of Scenario's comment was more like oh that's a cool road, as in well, just road, rather than that's a cool dark road that can be used in cool dark places, but of course we can only speculate about the context :D

I wish we knew something by now, at least as far as next lvl cap update goes. Between Gundabad (which left its smallish war weirdness on the narrative), so much time of irrelevant lower lvl content (I mean, it was great, but irrelevant to newer progressing stories) and everyone's utter excitement/outright expectation to see Umbar (at least here) which doesn't really make sense/appeal to me on the current point in timeline beyond the basic "rich lore history!" premise and may equal wasting a crown jewel biome a bit prematurely... well, I'm just a bit burnt out right now from all this, I guess (from thinking or getting excited for the future lol)

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Originally Posted by k40rne

The most likely answer is Umbar (ties in with the Rings of Power also)

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You mean a series that doesn't even have Umbar and probably won't have... seeing how they avoid showing indigenous ethnicities such as Haradrim people and mess with/compress the timeline/stories in a way that won't even allow for humbling of Sauron in the East? :D Well yeah, that series. At the very least, it was pretty much confirmed definitely-not-Gandalf and female Frodo are going to Rhun so that makes more sense, marketing wise. (whereas there is no guarantee there will ever be Umbar in RoP and even if it'll be it may just be a footnote)

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Originally Posted by Phantion

I actually think the little tidbit you give here about "reusing the Dol Guldor fortress road" does start to make Nurn a more likely candidate IF they view it as a "salt water inland sea."

It's adjacent-south of Gorgoroth - so connected with existing landscape. It's Mordor's "bread basket" - so it would have conditions suitable for growing crops unlike the lands surrounding Mount Doom. We know from the quests hunting the Nine in Mordor Besieged that there are indeed dark fortresses in Nurn that some of the Nine lorded over.

So . . . would Dol Guldor-ish roads make sense connecting those dark fortresses to each other, to give it a little bit of a different look than Gorgoroth while keeping Sauron's dark mark on it? Yes.

Umbar . . . maybe, if there's a dark fortress that Sauron's servants use to "lord" over the haven. It's still possible. But Umbar also has a substantial Gondorian and Numenorean history to it as well . . . so, Dol Guldor's roads wouldn't come first to my mind - though it's still possible!

I think we can pretty much narrow it down to Umbar, Nurn, or a complete surprise none of us can foresee. We know, at least, there are no Dol Guldor-ish roads in Lindon! Hehehehehe! ;)

Cheers! :D

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It can of course be Nurn, but that tile can be repurposed. Nurn would certainly be the easiest for them Asset wise.

In any case, whether it's Rhun, Umbar or Nurn, I think us Ardaphiles will be pleased with it as long as they don't create another Dol Amroth debacle which I doubt would ever happen again considering the dev crew talent.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

You mean a series that doesn't even have Umbar and probably won't have... seeing how they avoid showing indigenous ethnicities such as Haradrim people and mess with/compress the timeline/stories in a way that won't even allow for humbling of Sauron in the East? :D Well yeah, that series. At the very least, it was pretty much confirmed definitely-not-Gandalf and female Frodo are going to Rhun so that makes more sense, marketing wise. (whereas there is no guarantee there will ever be Umbar in RoP and even if it'll be it may just be a footnote)

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I haven't finished watching it yet, but you sure do enjoy spoilers. In any case, most of these areas tie in easily with the series. Anything in the Southlands or Rhun or Eregion or Lindon & it will ensure Lotro continue to get more funding so you shouldn't be so unkeen on it (but yes Amazon is a problematic company, no one will deny that)

I thought that could have been Radaghast (because the loremaster type natural magic), although Gandalf was my immediate impression.

So, I think we're going to Rhun next as part of the expansion (and hope, since that makes the most sense to me narratively)

Scenario mentioned we can expect some lands to be connected, as in already existing landmass where they previously were not, rather than 'oh, we just add a chunk of landscape here but it doesn't really connect the world, it's just a new piece" The widely speculated Umbar/Harad direction, that I'm not keen on at this time, can't do something like that, it's pretty isolated. And I doubt they're going to connect ALL of Gondor all around.. up to West-march which needs to be added too/Dunland/Rohan. Seems like too much updates needed, also, ALL of that landscape for cap? Makes little sense to me, even if they were able cover/create the landmass, plus no connection at all to Umbar and they always have some narrative build-up to new stories/expansion

But in preparation for Rhun they can have us go revisit Mirkwood perhaps, and connect some of the surrounding areas - there was also mention of those "river hobbits" when someone "spilled the beans" that if they do them they're not going to be necessarily tied to a "current time/place" or something like that (I think it was Scenario?), and that screams Harfoot migration angle, you know, like RoP... Mirkwood and surrounding lands. Also, the next housing is definitely a hobbit housing I mean, "fences" .... I doubt Scenario used that word to describe some majestic elven columns :P Screams to me like farmer life. Though the housing itself probably in one of the older areas, maybe they're already doing Yondershire housing after all? I guess lots of space South. But I guess we have hobbit themes, you can't exactly have that tied to Harad or Umbar, lol. And with these new races they usually want them tied to content somehow, at least thematically, not just "oh here you go!"

Also, while Rhun may appear far enough like there are many cool spots to fill in first, I guess they can just make sort of a "landmass tunnel" to it or even outright use a teleport connection - and that way they also solve the problematic "Rhun should be even further away to not make it look awkward because Iron Hills are already too close to Erebor to begin with" so a teleport might be a way to do it and they probably need to have Rhun on separate layer anyway, I believe. But they may connect some things between Mirkwood and Dale and maybe Iron Hills, somehow? Leave room for Dorwinion maybe and go back to it, or, it's also possible Dorwinion or any such "tunnel" landmass connecting to Rhun will be part of the expansion - think of Rohan, I think Rhun is too big to just make one expansion and call it a day, we might not even see an entire sea covered in just one expansion (and that of course goes x4 or x8 for places like Harad....)

Scenario also said something about being able to see how the world may amazingly grow in the future and while Harad/Umbar may fit that bill, so does Rhun or perhaps Rhun even better, because with Harad you mostly gotta go chunk-by-chunk in one direction or another, with Rhun... if you have it on the map... but not everything between that and the rest of Rhovanion filled-in yet, you still have many gaps to fill in but also... you open an entire new door to even further places (not even on some of the "regular" Tolkien maps) like Orocarni, destroyed kingdoms of the Eastern dwarves or stepping into Nurn from the back - or maybe stepping into Nurn from the back first and then come back to do rest of Rhun... which seems like a possibility too. But, the bottom line: you get a new spot on the map that's surrounded by gaps to fill in both more familiar (West) and more strange (East) so that's certainly an impressive way of seeing how the world may yet grow. Not exactly sure if that would really apply to Umbar as much, and neither to Nurn, they're both pretty isolated, and there is no opportunity to fill in in any already existing gaps leading up to them

Still, there is a Minhiriath ship... but I guess it could serve either as a teaser of something "on the radar" to do with Minhiriath in some distant future or a tease of a sea in general or something... or maybe we will actually go to Gondor as in Anfalas first to deal with that promise we made to a certain someone... Maybe, idk. Their building speed has certainly increased, if they focus just on cap, no idea how many updates they can do before the planned expansion. Or maybe, if you just think in terms of landmass, not updates, how much landmass. Maybe small Anfalas for that one plot thread + some small Corsair remnants, and then we go into bigger landmass update for connecting some of that stuff North prior to expansion release. That's double the sea salt but also a break between sea salts in-between, sounds like a kind of their thing. We will know soon enough, in a producer letter...

There is a way they *could* solve their Iron Hills / map-scale problem:

A- Extend the flow of the River Carnen much further eastward before heading southward. They used a similar method to "solve" the "Great South Road" issue in Swanfleet (*where the road came much too close to the Misty Mountains in Enedwaith for it to head south on the more gradual diagonal line on Tolkien's map - so they actually had it head just straight westward for a bit parallel to the Glanduin and out toward Tharbad before taking the diagonal northwest through Cardolan. They can use a similar "fix it" solution with the Carnen).

B- I still think "Rhun" could work on the wider Rhovanion map; I'd like for them to try to limit creating "new mega world maps" like "Mordor" and "Gondor." It's very arbitrary to have to cross a "portal," and the idea of Rhun getting that treatment gets an absolute "NO!" from me. It's too wide and open, and I don't want them to "sandbox" it with arbitrary borders that make no sense for an open land that should be connected to Iron Hills, Dale-lands, the whole stretch of Mirkwood, Great River, and parts of East Wall from all angles.

The only knotty spot is really where Gondor and Mordor intersect. I have a solution for that too: a portal entrance into Dead Marshes from the north to whatever region lies between Rhun and Great River, and another portal entrance via Lang Rhuven between "Mordor" and "Rhovanion" with the connector in the Wastes. I'd much prefer Rhun to be on the main world Rhovanion map. If they could get Moria, Erebor, Gundabad, and most of Rohan on the same map, I think they could pull it off by adding Rhun.

It would make for a far more seamless landscape experience from the Iron Hills all the way around to Rauros. I also think they should have Emyn Muil on the Rhovanion map; I know it would surround Gondor's "Dead Marshes" by portals between it, Rhovanion, and Mordor, but pick your poison. The Dead Marshes = a smaller, contained area. It wouldn't bug me as much as running into portals literally all the way from Iron Hills to Great River. It's for this same reason I'd like them to try to include the Southron regions on either the Gondor map or the Mordor map - but not an entirely new map that involves yet more arbitrary portals. I'd concede to it if having all those zones in 1 world map would cause server crashes and mega issues like those; but, ideally, please try not to.

Cheers! :D

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

So, I think we're going to Rhun next as part of the expansion (and hope, since that makes the most sense to me narratively)

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But how does Rhun tie into the "smell of salt water" tease from awhile back?

I still don't think we will enter Rhun proper. I don't see the reason for it, or how they would get around Rhun being controlled by first Melkor, and later Sauron, for like ten thousand years, and almost everyone there hating people from the west. The refugees may be willing to suck up to old enemies in a time of crisis, but I don't see whatever remaining warlords still rule in Rhun being exactly welcoming to "invaders" from the east. This isn't even really a Dunalnd situation where its a relatively small area, and the people are generally focused on hating the people of Rohan, this is an area as large as Middle Earth as we know it and many powerful tribal nations. Though I do think the Rhun mystery will tie up many of the lose plot threads.

I've speculated for awhile that many of the big remaining plot threads in LOTRO are likely tied together. The tremors in the mountains, the destruction out east, the leader of the nameless horrors, etc. etc. are all likely tied. I would guess Sauron's continued existence on Middle Earth served as something of a deterrent to the Nameless for many years. The destruction of the One Ring, the death of Sauron, and the eruption of Mt Doom served as a "wake up call" that their competition had fallen. The tremors in the mountains across Middle Earth are the result of the Nameless digging up from the depth of the Earth. The orc horde that overran the Iron Garrison in Moria fleeing from the rising Nameless mass. The "things worse than dragons" the eastern dwarves fled from being the nameless monsters they've never seen before. etc.

I could see an epic story covering like Middle Mirkwood, Fields of Celduin, Barding Lands, Dorwinion, Heathlands, and Forodwaith, covering such a story.
-Us starting off in Middle Mirkwood, and helping the forest people take claim of their part of the forest. As we get nearer ti the eastern end we encounter more of the Easterling refugees.
-Maps like the Fields of Celduin, Barding Lands, and Dorwinion, picking up on this, dealing with the Blue Wizards, and Ayorzén, now in control of a force of his own using the Karazgar guide, trying to find the cause/dealing with their people
-Revelations made along this path, and information picked up by the Blue Wizards/Ayorzen lead us to to go north, first into the Heathlands(connecting Iron Hills and Ered Mithrin behind Erebor) and then into Forodwaith, which includes the northern face of the Grey Mountains.
-This leads us to discover Thafar-Gathol, the mythical lost city, where the leader of the Nameless is, and we kill it ending the Nameless threat.

This would connect up a lot of areas(Northern/Southern Mirkwood), adding in more paths from from Dale to the southern lands, connecting Iron Hills to the Grey Mountains, etc.

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Originally Posted by Phantion

A- Extend the flow of the River Carnen much further eastward before heading southward. They used a similar method to "solve" the "Great South Road" issue in Swanfleet (*where the road came much too close to the Misty Mountains in Enedwaith for it to head south on the more gradual diagonal line on Tolkien's map - so they actually had it head just straight westward for a bit parallel to the Glanduin and out toward Tharbad before taking the diagonal northwest through Cardolan. They can use a similar "fix it" solution with the Carnen).

B- I still think "Rhun" could work on the wider Rhovanion map; I'd like for them to try to limit creating "new mega world maps" like "Mordor" and "Gondor." It's very arbitrary to have to cross a "portal," and the idea of Rhun getting that treatment gets an absolute "NO!" from me. It's too wide and open, and I don't want them to "sandbox" it with arbitrary borders that make no sense for an open land that should be connected to Iron Hills, Dale-lands, the whole stretch of Mirkwood, Great River, and parts of East Wall from all angles.

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I agree about the River, yeah. But that's my point, Rhun should NOT be directly connected to Iron Hills, Dale-lands nor Lang Rhuven - it's not actually there. There should be buffer lands between all these vast spaces and Rhun, they can extent Dalelands into more of a Kingdom than it currently is, they can have some woodsmen stuff penetrating out of Mirkwood, the Dorwinion itself may be very expansive and varied. Sure, you could make an exception for canon Iron Hills and argue it's fairly close and canonically has a more direct connection to what constitutes Rhun proper... but sorry, nope, that ship has sailed, because it's physically just not there where it should and I really don't want Rhun up there right above Mt Doom LOL So just ignore Iron Hills or perhaps extend it in the future, either way have some substantial buffer territory there. Technically, they may have Skald's Drop lead into Dorwinion which itself may be a pretty extensive umbrella term for all sorts of wide Cardolan-style buffer lands before Rhun proper, the center of which would be even further East, everything to push it as far as possible Eastward... or, as I said, a change of zone and teleport, so we can miss a substantial chunk of land to be filled-in later given opportunity or never at all, sort of an "ether" land just to have Rhun physically where it should be in relation to Mordor/Nurn. And the "ether" land could be of course handled in different ways, it might come directly between everything else and Rhun or maybe between everything else and Dorwinion, or maybe differently, whichever fits the best to minimize the "now we have these artificial barriers all across the border here and this one gate to Rhun"

Oh, and sure, I do wish it was actually all connected but well, the thing is...

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Originally Posted by Phantion

It's for this same reason I'd like them to try to include the Southron regions on either the Gondor map or the Mordor map - but not an entirely new map that involves yet more arbitrary portals. I'd concede to it if having all those zones in 1 world map would cause server crashes and mega issues like those; but, ideally, please try not to.

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it's probably not the reason at all. I think they're actually physically limited on the layer by available coordinates/actual "pixels" of the layers and can't just extent them. Not sure whether we can measure it and find out how much space they have left in which directions (and where they have things like instances, time travel zones and other such places, though these can always be moved but I imagine a process like that is something they're rather trying to avoid). I guess Garan would know? If anyone knows that would be them!

So, if that's actually a technical limitation and teleport ought to happen at some point anyway, then I would rather have Rhun situated where it should be. If it's done in a way that doesn't feel too artificial, like you can still travel through some portions of the "Western East" close to Dorwinion or parts of Dorwinion, and have all these current Rhovanion regions connected, but then, at certain spots, they make multiple road, passages, chock points with teleports to different parts of Rhun, then with these natural barriers (for stuff like that they can also use tributary rivers, reeds, some natural rock formations) I would be fine by taking a portal even Further East. You're taking a long journey, though territory not exactly part of West anymore but still not close enough to the Sea, most likely not much to see there then, so it's not as jarring. But at least Rhun is rightly placed - maybe on Mordor map, since this one seems like it's still ripe to fill in... - so then you can have traversable path from Lang Rhuven all around Mordor through Rhun and back to Nurn, all part of same map, Khand too, though not sure if they could have Harad in there, and most likely not all of it... and if that's how they did it, on Mordor map and all around, I'm also very interested in that piece of land beyond Seregost, maybe something more could be done with it, idk, like some secret pass or something, and maybe some detailed backstory with Lhaereth's ?dauther? and whatever was happening back then in that area

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

But how does Rhun tie into the "smell of salt water" tease from awhile back?

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It's a Sea of Rhun soooo. Even if their in-game world answer was that it technically doesn't have a salt, I don't think that's a detail Sev would be mindful of/thinking of when teasing something that for all purposes and views very much works and feels like a sea

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

I still don't think we will enter Rhun proper. I don't see the reason for it

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The reason is - they would NOT miss out on this. But even then, it's technically very possible. This land is at crisis. We would enter it solo to investigate. And after fall of Sauron there are certainly parties willing to give us a "job" (use us lol) or receive help from a lone Western stranger. For allies, also Blue Wizards or one of them - or those opposed to them - if they happen to be kind of bad guys. And yeah, very much like Dunland, we can easily get affiliated with just one of the clans/kings. And sure, it's large, that's why I think it can be split into 2 expacs, or perhaps more, if they still have loose ends left

The plot threads will certainly connect somehow. But I don't think it's "do Rhun and done with Throkhar, whatever it/he is" It really seems to me like he is the ideal far-reaching (call it Sauron 2.0) antagonist of this After the Fall portion of the game - we may foil his plans, or delay his supposed awakening, or face his chess pieces without even knowing it at first (bah, his chess pieces may not even know they're chess pieces, think Eldricht vibes here rather than something like Sauron which controls directly and though iron fist), but sounds like too big of a fuss and INSANE (great) setup to take off the board so quickly. Not to mention there is enough of main stuff to deal with to be enough even without a single hint of Throkhar (though there will be certainly influence to greater degree, since we know there are probably some Nameless there? I guess?). We have like Karazgar VS another Eastern dragon combo there, the entire political thing and strife, plus Lhaereth most likely, since she ties heavily into story of the region (and Ayorzen narrative) so a great way for her to finally die in there, enough is enough... I had a though that it's actually her tower "of rot" in the "jungle" (which might refer to more exotically forestry part of Rhun rather than Far Harad) of the Beorning prophecy. And we know, that at least some part of Rhun men seems being armed again, and that's during a crisis at that, so must be someone scary they would be willing to do that again despite recent losses and, like, their loved ones in peril or fligh towards West - but the Sweet Lara has the kind of reputation that maybe can be convincing. And the heart burn with vengeance from the text fits - whereas it wouldn't for Far Harad, what would they care for Gondor and vengeance now when the loss was an opportunity for them to get freed from the Black Serpent guy.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

It's a Sea of Rhun soooo. Even if their in-game world answer was that it technically doesn't have a salt, I don't think that's a detail Sev would be mindful of/thinking of when teasing something that for all purposes and views very much works and feels like a sea

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The "sea" of Rhun is created by two freshwater rivers. There's no salt there, and I don't think Scenario would make a mistake like that.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

The reason is - they would NOT miss out on this. But even then, it's technically very possible. This land is at crisis. We would enter it solo to investigate. And after fall of Sauron there are certainly parties willing to give us a "job" (use us lol) or receive help from a lone Western stranger. For allies, also Blue Wizards or one of them - or those opposed to them - if they happen to be kind of bad guys. And yeah, very much like Dunland, we can easily get affiliated with just one of the clans/kings. And sure, it's large, that's why I think it can be split into 2 expacs, or perhaps more, if they still have loose ends left

The plot threads will certainly connect somehow. But I don't think it's "do Rhun and done with Throkhar, whatever it/he is" It really seems to me like he is the ideal far-reaching (call it Sauron 2.0) antagonist of this After the Fall portion of the game - we may foil his plans, or delay his supposed awakening, or face his chess pieces without even knowing it at first (bah, his chess pieces may not even know they're chess pieces, think Eldricht vibes here rather than something like Sauron which controls directly and though iron fist), but sounds like too big of a fuss and INSANE (great) setup to take off the board so quickly. Not to mention there is enough of main stuff to deal with to be enough even without a single hint of Throkhar (though there will be certainly influence to greater degree, since we know there are probably some Nameless there? I guess?). We have like Karazgar VS another Eastern dragon combo there, the entire political thing and strife, plus Lhaereth most likely, since she ties heavily into story of the region (and Ayorzen narrative) so a great way for her to finally die in there, enough is enough... I had a though that it's actually her tower "of rot" in the "jungle" (which might refer to more exotically forestry part of Rhun rather than Far Harad) of the Beorning prophecy. And we know, that at least some part of Rhun men seems being armed again, and that's during a crisis at that, so must be someone scary they would be willing to do that again despite recent losses and, like, their loved ones in peril or fligh towards West - but the Sweet Lara has the kind of reputation that maybe can be convincing. And the heart burn with vengeance from the text fits - whereas it wouldn't for Far Harad, what would they care for Gondor and vengeance now when the loss was an opportunity for them to get freed from the Black Serpent guy.

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I generally get the opposite feeling. With the Black Book of Mordor, and Gundabad, SSG seems to be leaning more into the shorter, more one off, storylines. Not the "Sauron 2.0" style mega storyline thats going to take a decade or w/e.

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

The "sea" of Rhun is created by two freshwater rivers. There's no salt there,

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If the sea doesn't have an outlet then it will become salty over time, for example, the Dead Sea.

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

I generally get the opposite feeling. With the Black Book of Mordor, and Gundabad, SSG seems to be leaning more into the shorter, more one off, storylines. Not the "Sauron 2.0" style mega storyline thats going to take a decade or w/e.

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If their previous track record is anything to go by, I would rather say long-term, not short-term. Also, I would rather have it evolve into something neat, not just be dealt with as quickly, since it's all very intriguing and can, in some ways, have us explore some meeega "out of place" bits of the lore (dancing around the license constraints of course) that most people would typically think of as not part of anything Tolkien at all, but nope, these bits exist. If you go by the description of the Howling Pit instance, for example, you could make a claim it all comes back to Morgoth (since it was said they served Morgoth, at least when referring to Howling Pit) but it was said "even Sauron knows them not" soooo... I can buy Morgoth's having a division of them and their existence being somehow overlooked in the vast host of different things that served Morgoth, or perhaps, the dwarves are just misinterpreting things, and these never 'served' Morgoth. But if a leader of the Nameless was actually just some Morgoth's creation it would be incredibly stupid for Sauron NOT to know. Also, the Void portals are... interesting. But Maiar comfy in their domains, like Sauron, clearly don't bother as much with those, other than some necromantic stuff. On the other hand, it's clearly a domain of the Nameless, and other "ancient evil" such as Rogmul/lesser Balrogs (who escaped the good guys or were never even involved in Morgoth's host?) often found accompanying them for some reason. Also, look to Ungolian's origins for example, where it's not exactly clear and some hints she might have been creation/manifestation of Darkness itself, so wholly separate So, specifically taking into account how the game's Nameless actually look... why should these be any different? They feel more alien and out of place than the spider form of Ungoliant even. Don't look like Morgoth's corruption or breed of anything in particular, I mean just no way (though he might have wanted to use them for something, maybe even employed them/open a path for them to Arda or whatever such thing, especially during that part when the Valars were basically waging war of mountain collapse - but even then Sauron was there so hmm)

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Originally Posted by auximenes

If the sea doesn't have an outlet then it will become salty over time, for example, the Dead Sea.

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Or, geographically, in relation to Western Middle-Earth (say, very roughly "European") you would think of something like the Black Sea (which wasn't connected to the ocean in the past) or Caspian Sea. If we compare the early coasts of Harad to Levant, then more likely Caspian Sea, due how much further East it lies.

To get to Rhun and the Sea of Rhun... you'd have to create a landmass as large or larger than any you'd need to get to Umbar.

South Gondor could easily be made from several different points, the blockade encampment on the Harad Road in South Ithilien, a boat across the river from Peligir, or even a new pass out of Mordor's skinless cultist/Guant-man Factory/(Corrupted Ent-wife?Hourn?) zone... whatever it was called..., or even through Nurn and Harad.

Rhun, Umbar, or Nurn... i look forward to the new lands.

Unless we were all played for fools and what they're actually doing is kind of what me and Phantion suggested under this North Downs thread only full-on with traversable region (that includes a "high" portion of Arthedain and expansion of Fornost) connecting all three so North Downs, Angmar and Forochel, and what we're getting is the sea salt of much of the unseen icebay of Forochel that's not even there on the map in the game. In a way, this would also expand a perspective on the world and hint at this huge line of Forodwaith becoming viable destination at some point

Eh, but yeah, most likely not, and you can't tie hobbits to that either.

Btw, Scenario also mentioned we're getting - in next update I think? - some beloved location being reworked. But it's probably irrelevant to next content because it can be literally anything ranging from a Princing Pony rework inside of it to something like some of the elven Rivendell structure assets being reworked/given polish, anything really. But it's not the Shire inns, so... no idea really what it might be. Maybe for some additional touch in the inns or raising some assets I can think of stuff, but elsewhere and in terms of worldbuilding in particular... I don't think anything is in need of rework? From "beloved" locations? (which I don't think would include dungeons, ruins and such)

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Btw, Scenario also mentioned we're getting - in next update I think? - some beloved location being reworked. But it's probably irrelevant to next content because it can be literally anything ranging from a Princing Pony rework inside of it to something like some of the elven Rivendell structure assets being reworked/given polish, anything really. But it's not the Shire inns, so... no idea really what it might be. Maybe for some additional touch in the inns or raising some assets I can think of stuff, but elsewhere and in terms of worldbuilding in particular... I don't think anything is in need of rework? From "beloved" locations? (which I don't think would include dungeons, ruins and such)

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A re-work of South Ithilien? Central Gondor even?

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

If their previous track record is anything to go by, I would rather say long-term, not short-term. Also, I would rather have it evolve into something neat, not just be dealt with as quickly, since it's all very intriguing and can, in some ways, have us explore some meeega "out of place" bits of the lore (dancing around the license constraints of course) that most people would typically think of as not part of anything Tolkien at all, but nope, these bits exist. If you go by the description of the Howling Pit instance, for example, you could make a claim it all comes back to Morgoth (since it was said they served Morgoth, at least when referring to Howling Pit) but it was said "even Sauron knows them not" soooo... I can buy Morgoth's having a division of them and their existence being somehow overlooked in the vast host of different things that served Morgoth, or perhaps, the dwarves are just misinterpreting things, and these never 'served' Morgoth. But if a leader of the Nameless was actually just some Morgoth's creation it would be incredibly stupid for Sauron NOT to know. Also, the Void portals are... interesting. But Maiar comfy in their domains, like Sauron, clearly don't bother as much with those, other than some necromantic stuff. On the other hand, it's clearly a domain of the Nameless, and other "ancient evil" such as Rogmul/lesser Balrogs (who escaped the good guys or were never even involved in Morgoth's host?) often found accompanying them for some reason. Also, look to Ungolian's origins for example, where it's not exactly clear and some hints she might have been creation/manifestation of Darkness itself, so wholly separate So, specifically taking into account how the game's Nameless actually look... why should these be any different? They feel more alien and out of place than the spider form of Ungoliant even. Don't look like Morgoth's corruption or breed of anything in particular, I mean just no way (though he might have wanted to use them for something, maybe even employed them/open a path for them to Arda or whatever such thing, especially during that part when the Valars were basically waging war of mountain collapse - but even then Sauron was there so hmm)

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I do wish they'd revisit and come up with some more clever models for the Nameless though. I know Tolkien never actually described them and left them shrouded in mystery.

But every single time I go and encounter them, whether beneath Jarnfast or under Moria's bowels, all I can wonder is when Ellen Ripley and the space marines are going to show-up with a tank to help out the Dwarves.

The Nameless literally look like some slightly-altered, upright version of Giger's Alien drawings and the portrayal of the classic xenomorphs in the "Alien, Aliens, Alien 3" movies. I love that IP, but it's a very different tale than those Tolkien wove in Arda, and my mind just can't dissociate them because they look so much alike in-game.

I know the Mistress of Pestilence looks like some odd cousin of Jabba the Hutt from "Star Wars," but at least they didn't outright make her the Alien Queen. Even so, the eggs? Too much. Just way too much. I keep wondering why the face-huggers haven't hatched and taken out my characters, and I keep wondering why the Nameless don't combust on death with acid for blood to give me a very bad DoT.

Awesome as it is, I have to admit: the longer time's gone by in-game, the more and more I wish they chose some different, lesser known inspiration for the Nameless. Something else, literally anything else! I'd even take something more wraith-like but with fangs or something vaguely vampiric than . . . "Aliens."

That, or give the Hunter lore-defying, rapid-fire super-arrows with big flame bursts to take out the xenomorphs under Moria (*I'm joking LOL!). It also makes me very nervous to wonder what Throkar will really look like.

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LOTRO has a ton of potential with Throkhar, as I've said in the past. A ton of potential. He could be the next "Darth Tenebrae" if you know SWTOR- Emperor Valkorian, an illusive foe always one step ahead of the player and the player's personal nemesis with some grave implications for the world if said villain succeeds. An Enemy with a brain - with a master plan - who simply waited out Sauron's demise. Again, I don't want a villain who can "steal the stage from Sauron" too much- mainly a "replacement" of the "Mordirith," "Mordrambor," and "Karazgar" role- the player's personal nemesis that, yes, it really does matter if the player wins or not. You need that kind of plot to sustain an MMO over the longer term. You just do, Lore or no Lore (*and I know I'm normally a mega Lore adherent). I do understand the practical writing side of it to keep folks engaged with playing the game - and yeah, that does merit a "big bad" you have to keep after and keep fighting. It's how "The Flash" lasted 9 seasons on Netflix- LOL!

Anyways, I'm very scared of how silly they'll make Throkhar look in light of the "Chamber of Shadows" (*that Nameless really looked goofy after ripping fake-Durin's beard off) and especially in the whole trajectory of the Giger inspirations. Giger's xenomorphs just don't belong in Middle-earth; they have a whole different vibe and feel informed by an entirely "alien" - pun intended - IP where the best known solutions tend to involve flame-throwers, rapid fire armaments, tanks, and "nuking the site from orbit" (Aliens). It feels so absurd to try to play High Elves and/or Hobbits fighting them - and I often have to just suspend my disbelief and imagine them looking like something else.

All we know from the lore is that they're Nameless and they gnaw. It does make sense they have teeth. The design I find much better is that of the Rogmul. Now THAT does feel far more Middle-earthy and honestly closer to Tolkien's descriptions of the wingless Balrog.

But seriously. What will Throkhar look like at this rate? A giant world-eater? A xenomorphed version of the plant from "Little Shop of Horrors"? Audrey II? A giant evil mouth? Or worse, a giant space-blob of incoherent goo? What will Throkhar look like? The Mistress of Pestilence's long-lost husband? Ewwww. But silly. The lord of the "Chamber of Shadows" looked like a clown with an elephant nose once he was unmasked. Maybe they'll make him look like one of the were-wyrms from the "Hobbit" movies. Eeeeeek! So silly!

Honestly, if it were me, I'd directly model Throkhar on Tolkien's actual, wingless, shadowy Balrog description. I'd make him shrouded in shadow, maybe some flaming eyes to up the scare factor while keeping him in the same universe as "the Witch-King," maybe give him an enigmatic, mysterious background that's left mysterious on purpose, and so forth. But he'd fit in Arda; he'd strike us as different enough from Sauron and company, certainly someone Gandalf wouldn't want to mention, but still in that Middle-earth ballpark. Similarly, even just darkening the Nameless models by a lot, giving their mouths some more texture, and making them more shadowy, fell creatures of a mysterious-yet-Middle-earthy variety would go a long way. If they'd insist on keeping the eggs, I'd make them look more like a dark, evil spidery variety and less like a xenomorphic one.

I wish they'd go more in - that - direction. Nameless, scary, fanged with large maws - but more in that "Morgoth, Ungoliant, Balrogs" typology - something I could more easily picture in my head as the mysterious evils of primeval darkness of a sort that still feel self-referential: still a uniquely Middle-earth entity. I know it would be a huge writing and graphics challenge for the devs - but I do think it would be very worth it to steer the Nameless away from outer space and closer to something we could imagine more readily possible and plausible gnawing the depths of Arda.

Or else, "can the lore completely" and just give us the same modern weaponry tools Ripley used against the xenomorphs, in-game! (*No, I'm joking! LOL!).

Cheers! :D

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Originally Posted by Phantion

I do wish they'd revisit and come up with some more clever models for the Nameless though. I know Tolkien never actually described them and left them shrouded in mystery. But every single time I go and encounter them, whether beneath Jarnfast or under Moria's bowels, all I can wonder is when Ellen Ripley and the space marines are going to show-up with a tank to help out the Dwarves. The Nameless literally look like some slightly-altered, upright version of Giger's Alien drawings and the portrayal of the classic xenomorphs in the "Alien, Aliens, Alien 3" movies. I love that IP, but it's a very different tale than those Tolkien wove in Arda, and my mind just can't dissociate them because they look so much alike in-game. I know the Mistress of Pestilence looks like some odd cousin of Jabba the Hutt from "Star Wars," but at least they didn't outright make her the Alien Queen. Even so, the eggs? Too much. Just way too much. I keep wondering why the face-huggers haven't hatched and taken out my characters, and I keep wondering why the Nameless don't combust on death with acid for blood to give me a very bad DoT.

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Yeah, that continues to be a disappointment for me. If it was just the xenomorphesque models it wouldn't be as bad but they put the eggs in there too. Not subtle, and not appropriate IMO.

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Originally Posted by Phantion

I do wish they'd revisit and come up with some more clever models for the Nameless though.

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Neh, no. If there is anything I dislike it's retconning things into something else entirely after X years, they've been pretty well established by now and I don't have any problem with them

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Originally Posted by Phantion

But every single time I go and encounter them, whether beneath Jarnfast or under Moria's bowels, all I can wonder is when Ellen Ripley and the space marines are going to show-up with a tank to help out the Dwarves.

The Nameless literally look like some slightly-altered, upright version of Giger's Alien drawings and the portrayal of the classic xenomorphs in the "Alien, Aliens, Alien 3" movies. I love that IP, but it's a very different tale than those Tolkien wove in Arda, and my mind just can't dissociate them because they look so much alike in-game.

Even so, the eggs? Too much. Just way too much. I keep wondering why the face-huggers haven't hatched

Giger's xenomorphs just don't belong in Middle-earth; they have a whole different vibe and feel informed by an entirely "alien" - pun intended - IP where the best known solutions tend to involve flame-throwers, rapid fire armaments, tanks, and "nuking the site from orbit" (Aliens).

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They don't even look THAT similar (though clearly some inspirations were there). So I would say, well yes, you're just unable to dissociate for some reason. Also, yesss... they *don't belong* in Middle-earth, that was clearly the point. You're not supposed to feel like they belong. So, I would say it worked :D

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Originally Posted by Phantion

Something else, literally anything else! I'd even take something more wraith-like but with fangs or something vaguely vampiric than . . . "Aliens."

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We have Merrevail for that - they belong somehow, with nods to the lore and folklore legends. And other wraith-like creatures, from Oath-breakers to lesser servants of the Maiar, or even the lesser Nazgul, for the wraith part. Nameless aren't supposed to belong, however.

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Originally Posted by Phantion

Anyways, I'm very scared of how silly they'll make Throkhar look in light of the "Chamber of Shadows" (*that Nameless really looked goofy after ripping fake-Durin's beard off)

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He was a bit of a goof there but I guess the Shadowed King - to something like Throkhar anyway - would be merely just that, a goof playing at being a dwarf. I mean, I guess he only got his "status" as such a baddie because he was actually able to act like a decent leader (since stylizing himself on dwarven king) rather than just run around, gnaw and consume as head of the "nameless hive". Plus, that entire instance and premise clearly served to tease some Durin stuff for Gundabad... so I'm not that worried about the whole "Shadow King playing a humanized dwarf like a goof!" having any serious effect on the narrative or how they're going to handle Throkhar/other Nameless once it comes to it

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Originally Posted by Phantion

All we know from the lore is that they're Nameless and they gnaw. It does make sense they have teeth. The design I find much better is that of the Rogmul. Now THAT does feel far more Middle-earthy and honestly closer to Tolkien's descriptions of the wingless Balrog.

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And they do have teeth. And they gnaw. Some with bigger mouths full of teeth, able to swallow a rock. Others with their little ones and with their screechy creepy voices. Also, rather than outright alien, some of them have these horns which makes them more Eldricht too. A mix of sorts. They fit the bill of unfathomable and stranger to Middle-earth/Arda quite well. The design of Rogmul, again, doesn't work, because it belongs to Middle-earth and is merely a "lesser" take on a Balrog, so again a Maia connection.

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Originally Posted by Phantion

Honestly, if it were me, I'd directly model Throkhar on Tolkien's actual, wingless, shadowy Balrog description.

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That wouldn't make him different from a Balrog. They can just... do an actual Balrog based on this. So, I expect something more original for Throkhar, and yeah, I wouldn't want him to be just a large resized version of the basic Nameless we've gotten. Also, I'm of an opinion he might have many forms or something. A bit Eldricht, but would need to give him some physical (for consuming) form too. Anyway, it all depends on the story they've got planned here and idea/origin for the Nameless in the first place. I doubt he will be like the Mistress, since they also mentioned a Nameless Mother, not just Throkhar who is always specifically referred to as a he and a lord, so the Shelob-counterpart for the Nameless would be that mother, though who knows where is she, maybe not even in Arda no more. But yeah, all in all, I'm really convinced they gotta feel stranger because they're somehow alien to the place, that's how I would expect it to go in any case, and they're supposed to be older than Sauron so not sure what's the angle here otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Phantion

I wish they'd go more in - that - direction. Nameless, scary, fanged with large maws - but more in that "Morgoth, Ungoliant, Balrogs" typology - something I could more easily picture in my head as the mysterious evils of primeval darkness of a sort that still feel self-referential: still a uniquely Middle-earth entity. I know it would be a huge writing and graphics challenge for the devs - but I do think it would be very worth it to steer the Nameless away from outer space and closer to something we could imagine more readily possible and plausible gnawing the depths of Arda.

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In other words, you would have them do the redesign to have them feel more like all of these other things we already have albeit a bit more on drugs, like the recent model of the Grey Fear (ah, it is so cool!). But nope, they're not supposed to feel familiar to the place, that's what I thought the devs were always going for - it was intentional rather than a mishap.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

If their previous track record is anything to go by, I would rather say long-term, not short-term. Also, I would rather have it evolve into something neat, not just be dealt with as quickly, since it's all very intriguing and can, in some ways, have us explore some meeega "out of place" bits of the lore (dancing around the license constraints of course) that most people would typically think of as not part of anything Tolkien at all, but nope, these bits exist. If you go by the description of the Howling Pit instance, for example, you could make a claim it all comes back to Morgoth (since it was said they served Morgoth, at least when referring to Howling Pit) but it was said "even Sauron knows them not" soooo... I can buy Morgoth's having a division of them and their existence being somehow overlooked in the vast host of different things that served Morgoth, or perhaps, the dwarves are just misinterpreting things, and these never 'served' Morgoth. But if a leader of the Nameless was actually just some Morgoth's creation it would be incredibly stupid for Sauron NOT to know. Also, the Void portals are... interesting. But Maiar comfy in their domains, like Sauron, clearly don't bother as much with those, other than some necromantic stuff. On the other hand, it's clearly a domain of the Nameless, and other "ancient evil" such as Rogmul/lesser Balrogs (who escaped the good guys or were never even involved in Morgoth's host?) often found accompanying them for some reason. Also, look to Ungolian's origins for example, where it's not exactly clear and some hints she might have been creation/manifestation of Darkness itself, so wholly separate So, specifically taking into account how the game's Nameless actually look... why should these be any different? They feel more alien and out of place than the spider form of Ungoliant even. Don't look like Morgoth's corruption or breed of anything in particular, I mean just no way (though he might have wanted to use them for something, maybe even employed them/open a path for them to Arda or whatever such thing, especially during that part when the Valars were basically waging war of mountain collapse - but even then Sauron was there so hmm)

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I mean, the Black Book of Mordor questline covered 6 zones and like 2.5 years of real world time. The Gundabad story was like 19 months, and covered 4 major releases. That isn't exactly "short" by any metric. Most MMOs I know tend to keep storylines down to 18-20 months because any longer and you start to lose people's interest due to how fast things go in the gaming sphere. Not to mention, while I would love LOTRO to go on for another 15 years not even Everquest has lasted that long yet, and Everquest is something of a rarity among MMOs for how long its lasted. Only like EVE, WoW, and Runescape, can come close to comparing. Once you start getting to 15+ you really need to start thinking in the shorter term for your plots, as each year gives an increasingly smaller chance you'll have the ability to finish them. Starting a 10 year mega epic is the last thing any sane dev would do after getting this far into an MMO's lifespan.

You also have to take into consideration how many other stories are left outside of even what I proposed(Mordor, Borangos, Lhaereth, the southern regions like Umbar/Harad, Scouring of the Shire, Lindon+Elves Exodus, etc), and possible years like this oen where they focus on lower/mid level content development. Theres enough stuff in Middle Earth as we know it to take up another decade+ as is. Don't need to open the can of worm of Rhun that will never get to be developed to a satisfying degree.

As for Sauron not knowing. The various spirits didn't all enter Middle Earth at the same time. Sauron came some time after Melkor, so the Nameless could be some SUPER SUPER early thing of Melkors that he abandoned and had no reason to talk to Sauron about. I doubt Melkor, being an evil dark lord and all, was exactly super open to Sauron in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Feral_Yoda

To get to Rhun and the Sea of Rhun... you'd have to create a landmass as large or larger than any you'd need to get to Umbar.

South Gondor could easily be made from several different points, the blockade encampment on the Harad Road in South Ithilien, a boat across the river from Peligir, or even a new pass out of Mordor's skinless cultist/Guant-man Factory/(Corrupted Ent-wife?Hourn?) zone... whatever it was called..., or even through Nurn and Harad.

Rhun, Umbar, or Nurn... i look forward to the new lands.

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The Sea of Rhun isn't that far off. With the game's scaling you could slap a Erid Mithin sized map south of Iron Hills and get there in the next map. Its actually much closer than Umbar.

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

I mean, the Black Book of Mordor questline covered 6 zones and like 2.5 years of real world time. The Gundabad story was like 19 months, and covered 4 major releases. That isn't exactly "short" by any metric. Most MMOs I know tend to keep storylines down to 18-20 months because any longer and you start to lose people's interest due to how fast things go in the gaming sphere. Not to mention, while I would love LOTRO to go on for another 15 years not even Everquest has lasted that long yet, and Everquest is something of a rarity among MMOs for how long its lasted. Only like EVE, WoW, and Runescape, can come close to comparing. Once you start getting to 15+ you really need to start thinking in the shorter term for your plots, as each year gives an increasingly smaller chance you'll have the ability to finish them. Starting a 10 year mega epic is the last thing any sane dev would do after getting this far into an MMO's lifespan.

You also have to take into consideration how many other stories are left outside of even what I proposed(Mordor, Borangos, Lhaereth, the southern regions like Umbar/Harad, Scouring of the Shire, Lindon+Elves Exodus, etc), and possible years like this oen where they focus on lower/mid level content development. Theres enough stuff in Middle Earth as we know it to take up another decade+ as is. Don't need to open the can of worm of Rhun that will never get to be developed to a satisfying degree.

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The Black Book - resolved the Black Book introduced with actual physical Black Book (halfway through...) and... Mordirith! Plus two of the Gurzyul who weren't that much active or part of a heavier plot point to begin with. Everything else just added to the pile, basically, not resolved.

Gundabad - lots of cool stuff with dwarves and completion of their theme, including the matter of reincarnated Durin, but that wasn't actually that dire to be introduced so early. (I mean, they could had Durin make slow mental and physical preparations at Skarhald just fine, for many many many updates, and we didn't even hear any word of Gorgar yet). What was actually resolved was Hrimil - one dragon. (But you could argue she already was kind of "paused" with no need to continue or become a threat anytime soon, in her collapsed lair). Anyway, Hrimil certainly a major baddie but just one person. Not even her associated horde of orcs (Hobgoblins) was actually resolved completely. And a great deal of mysterious stuff introduced...

Also, no Frodo moving back home, no Scouring, no Lindon, no Grey Havens anytime soon.

That's far from "hey, we have to hurry up a bit with some plots so maybe let's focus on these ones now and we won't plan anything new that would span across multiple threads and regions for another XXX years because MMOs don't last that long" :P

Which is quite the opposite of what you just said xD In fact, they were much more tame back in Rohan-Gondor stage. Bit by bit we were just doing that one story from the books, with extras thrown in (some of which evolved into their own loose ends not resolved to this day) but moving toward one dire destination - Black Gate and resolution of War of the Ring, which was only one major story they were doing. Anyway, it's fine now, these are cool stories they are doing and teasing, and I don't mind long long-term either, but that's exactly why I would like them to coordinate a bit which regions they're doing based on the "dire" factor of the stories/how many loose ends there are and where. Rather than go to mostly narratively blank places and ones too-soonish-in-lore at that (which Gundabad was a bit like that)

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

As for Sauron not knowing. The various spirits didn't all enter Middle Earth at the same time. Sauron came some time after Melkor, so the Nameless could be some SUPER SUPER early thing of Melkors that he abandoned and had no reason to talk to Sauron about. I doubt Melkor, being an evil dark lord and all, was exactly super open to Sauron in the first place.

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Well, I did consider it, though with him being a pretty powerful, skilled and badass one you would expect he was there pretty early, no? Plus, even without knowing, all his years in service of Morgoth or in depths of his fortresses he would at least hear some rumors (or gnawing if they were just abandoned toys of Morgoth ;P) and at least tried figure something out, and that alone would kinda undermine "he knows them not." Plus, the appearances, which make them super distinct so very suspicious vs when you look at Ungoliant/Shelob, though their origins are somehow shrouded in mystery and ambiguous, they do belong and Sauron clearly knew about them, wasn't just clueless. So makes me really intrigued how the devs plan to actually resolve the Nameless matter.

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Originally Posted by Phantion

B- I still think "Rhun" could work on the wider Rhovanion map; I'd like for them to try to limit creating "new mega world maps" like "Mordor" and "Gondor." It's very arbitrary to have to cross a "portal," and the idea of Rhun getting that treatment gets an absolute "NO!" from me. It's too wide and open, and I don't want them to "sandbox" it with arbitrary borders that make no sense for an open land that should be connected to Iron Hills, Dale-lands, the whole stretch of Mirkwood, Great River, and parts of East Wall from all angles.

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I actually like more of those big maps, if they update the deed pages too.

Arnor: Ered Luin, Yondershire, The Shire, Bree-land, Evendim, Forochel, North Downs, Angmar, Trollshaws, Cardolan, Swanfleet, Misty Mountains.

• Connects to Dunland, Rhovanion, Forodwaith.

Dunland: Eregion, Enedwaith, Dunland, Gap of Rohan, Nan Curunir.

• Connects to Arnor, Rohan.

Forodwaith: Gundabad, Elderslade, Ered Mithrin.

• Connects to Arnor, Rhovanion.

Rhovanion: Wells of Langflood, Vales of Anduin, Ery Lasgalen and the Dalelands, Iron Hills, Southern Mirkwood.

• Connects to Forodwaith, Rohan, Arnor.

Rohan: East Rohan, West Rohan, Wildermore, Great River, Lothlorien, Moria.

• Connects to Arnor, Rhovanion, Dunland, Gondor.

Gondor: Western Gondor, Central Gondor, Eastern Gondor, Far Anorien, Old Anorien.

• Connects to Rohan, Mordor.

Mordor: North Ithilien, The Wastes, Imlad Morgul, Gorgoroth.

• Connects to Gondor.

This would make the deed page more clear again and easier to find things, and also probably holds back lag a bit cause areas are smaller.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Which is quite the opposite of what you just said xD In fact, they were much more tame back in Rohan-Gondor stage. Bit by bit we were just doing that one story from the books, with extras thrown in (some of which evolved into their own loose ends not resolved to this day) but moving toward one dire destination - Black Gate and resolution of War of the Ring, which was only one major story they were doing. Anyway, it's fine now, these are cool stories they are doing and teasing, and I don't mind long long-term either, but that's exactly why I would like them to coordinate a bit which regions they're doing based on the "dire" factor of the stories/how many loose ends there are and where. Rather than go to mostly narratively blank places and ones too-soonish-in-lore at that (which Gundabad was a bit like that)

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Not really. Having basic set up for stories you want to tell in the future =/= the story itself being dragged out for a long time like you suggest. That isn't how narrative works anywhere.

You also really diminish the actual victories of the Black Book in your summary.

• Dulgabêth, Rûkhor, and Ugrukhôr, 3 of the five Gurzyul introduced, are killed, their lieutenants slain, and their fortresses captured. Wiping out a large portion of the remaining upper ranks of Sauron's armies fallowing his and the Ring Wraiths deaths.
• Karazgar's whole plan to take over the northern regions was thwarted, and he basically gives up on that goal to go east to find a cure for his dragon poison illness instead. Even dropping his mask(a fairly big symbolic event) in the process.
• Gothmog, one of the highest ranking remaining servants of Sauron, also killed.
• Shelob, one of the greatest remaining evils of the world, calls her giant spider children back to her, and they, along with Shelob herself, are killed. Ending the line of Ungoliant once and for all.
• Lhaereth the Stained's new plague was destroyed, with it being stated it will be decades before she can remake it. Ruining her plans in the process. Her attempt to find some way to resurrect Sauron via the black tree also turns out ot be a dud, leaving her with nothing.
• The Plateau of Gorgoroth, as well as the Morgul Vale, the main centers of Sauron's armies and production, are liberated/reclaimed by the forces of Gondor.
• Our journies across the north solve pretty much every major issue there except Gundabad, which itself was resolved in the immediate next story arc.

We plowed through so much stuff in the Black Book arc. They wiped out a good 80% of the remaining threats in Middle Earth in one swing, and left even some of the ones that remain hobbled.

Really the only big remaining big threats are Borangos, and the Nameless(assuming they're tied into the earth shaking) Most of the remaining plot threads are honestly smaller stuff that makes sense to resolve in these two larger issues.

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

Not really. Having basic set up for stories you want to tell in the future =/= the story itself being dragged out for a long time like you suggest. That isn't how narrative works anywhere.

You also really diminish the actual victories of the Black Book in your summary.

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Well, I kind of omitted the Mouth there because I jumped immediately to Minas Morgul stuff for Gurzyul dropped dead. Anyway, I was naming things actually ended, not anything that's still ongoing (though, in terms of storytelling, they were of course major events with weight). Shelob, while I did not name her and probably should have, you can still count as kind of "extra" though, because if she wasn't there, canonically she might have just died of her wounds as Tolkien implied.

The outline means they have stories they want to tell but storytelling is also building up expectations (if you specifically choose to do that in a bigger way) and then NOT failing to disappoint such expectations. And they're clearly making a fuss, ongoing mystery or hint at major relevance/weight of some of these more peculiar plot threads. So if they were to give such plot threads or newly built up major threads (ala Throkhar, with signs of him throughout all of Middle-earth apparently and potential to tap into Nameless stuff or even some workings of Arda) a quickly-paced, shorter longevity within a narrative with a boss fight and definite ending all within a single expac (which would have lots of different stuff in it too), well, that may turn out disappointing/waste of plot. Brathar and by extension Dourhands, while of lesser degree, was like that, for example. Was introduced in a cool way, as a complex antagonist, and still lots of stuff that we still don't know about Dourhands and can be fleshed out now after Azalnubizar introduced all clans, but then ended on such a quick-paced 'let's go for that giant stone, ah didn't work out too bad' snippet of a plan (whereas previously he was shown as this proper intriguing schemer). Well, in truth, all signs point towards the fact he was just supposed to drop dead in a fellowship instance as a cannon fodder before said instance was shelved and one of the devs left the team, so even though kind of disappointing/weirdly open-ended, what we got was still lucky and more preferable because maybe something more can still be done with this character/Dourhands at some point.

Anyway, that was my point, I don't say they should drag every plot thread for many many updates, just that where it's due then it shouldn't be disappointing/ended prematurely and take its time to deliver full potential - even across many many many updates - if it has such a strong potential.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Well, I kind of omitted the Mouth there because I jumped immediately to Minas Morgul stuff for Gurzyul dropped dead. Anyway, I was naming things actually ended, not anything that's still ongoing (though, in terms of storytelling, they were of course major events with weight). Shelob, while I did not name her and probably should have, you can still count as kind of "extra" though, because if she wasn't there, canonically she might have just died of her wounds as Tolkien implied.

The outline means they have stories they want to tell but storytelling is also building up expectations (if you specifically choose to do that in a bigger way) and then NOT failing to disappoint such expectations. And they're clearly making a fuss, ongoing mystery or hint at major relevance/weight of some of these more peculiar plot threads. So if they were to give such plot threads or newly built up major threads (ala Throkhar, with signs of him throughout all of Middle-earth apparently and potential to tap into Nameless stuff or even some workings of Arda) a quickly-paced, shorter longevity within a narrative with a boss fight and definite ending all within a single expac (which would have lots of different stuff in it too), well, that may turn out disappointing/waste of plot. Brathar and by extension Dourhands, while of lesser degree, was like that, for example. Was introduced in a cool way, as a complex antagonist, and still lots of stuff that we still don't know about Dourhands and can be fleshed out now after Azalnubizar introduced all clans, but then ended on such a quick-paced 'let's go for that giant stone, ah didn't work out too bad' snippet of a plan (whereas previously he was shown as this proper intriguing schemer). Well, in truth, all signs point towards the fact he was just supposed to drop dead in a fellowship instance as a cannon fodder before said instance was shelved and one of the devs left the team, so even though kind of disappointing/weirdly open-ended, what we got was still lucky and more preferable because maybe something more can still be done with this character/Dourhands at some point.

Anyway, that was my point, I don't say they should drag every plot thread for many many updates, just that where it's due then it shouldn't be disappointing/ended prematurely and take its time to deliver full potential - even across many many many updates - if it has such a strong potential.

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No one is suggesting something like the Throkhar story would be done within a single X-pack. Such a story would be done across 6ish zones, and cover like 2 xpacks. Like how the Black Book storyline was Gorgorth, North Mirkwood+Dale Lands, the Iron Hills, Erid Mithrin, Vales of Anduin, and Morgul Vale. In this case it would be something like Middle Mirkwood, Fields of Celduin, Barding Lands, Dorwinion, Heathlands, and Forodwaith.

And devs shouldn't ever really consider fan expectations when writing narratives. Fandoms of any series always over inflate the importance of otherwise mundane, or obviously lesser, narrative points into something much larger then they are, or otherwise would be. You should write stories in such a way that they make sense, even if that means making something that isn't a big deal not a big deal in its conclusion, even if that disappointing the expectations of part of the fandom. Trying to met fan expectations of narrative direction just leads to bloated, unfinishable, narratives that constantly keep escalating in severity to the point everything starts breaking down.

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

And devs shouldn't ever really consider fan expectations when writing narratives. Fandoms of any series always over inflate the importance of otherwise mundane, or obviously lesser, narrative points into something much larger then they are, or otherwise would be. You should write stories in such a way that they make sense, even if that means making something that isn't a big deal not a big deal in its conclusion, even if that disappointing the expectations of part of the fandom. Trying to met fan expectations of narrative direction just leads to bloated, unfinishable, narratives that constantly keep escalating in severity to the point everything starts breaking down.

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Oh, I strongly disagree. Giving in to shipping desires and other superficial fan service - or forced marketing needs but that's not really on the writers - are things that ruin stories and narratives. Taking care to deliver good, satisfying pay-offs or more extensive arcs to things that appear big enough to your fans/readers/watchers - because you made them feel so in the first place through many different points in the narrative, it's not like these feelings arise from nowhere on a whim - is a hallmark of good writing and tying up plot threads in good, impressive ways. It doesn't mean write your story how fans want it, it means take care and take your time to make it worth it, and, if by any chance you personally miscalculated/didn't expect that/ didn't really thought of something logical that the fans did, perhaps adjust your own writer's POV and be ready to improve your own take to make it feel good in the end (Now, of course I'm not talking about something like fan "UFO level" conspiracy theories based on a shape of belt on someone's clothes, which is indeed just a silly fan forcefully looking for things absent of any context/premise when they aren't there, but actual strong narrative points and characterization of characters now that's a different thing entirely)

Also, what I'm saying = in a way that makes sense, because usually you'll find that fans who point out such things in franchises/arcs that came to disappointing conclusions are rightly pointing out inconsistencies that can be observed, ranging from plot points to strongly established premises that weren't really strongly followed up on.