Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

Like how the Black Book storyline was Gorgorth, North Mirkwood+Dale Lands, the Iron Hills, Erid Mithrin, Vales of Anduin, and Morgul Vale.

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You're clearly mistaking a "game chapter" (that they have for these new epic quest format) with a particular plot thread. Black Book (=Voin) doesn't really start until a certain connected Tale-spinner is introduced and then deep into Iron Hills - the actual book itself. But even then it's just a sideline thing overall (overshadowed by the actual larger, more separate plot concerning the dwarves and Karazgar), with the readings of the book in-between. Lasts until the Vales and then comes together more clearly and actually kicks off with Minas Morgul which was one expac (and even then the Mordor part of it wasn't that much Voin-connected). And I don't complain - the nature of the plot thread made it acceptable and very satisfying nevertheless. But overall, the Voin one wasn't really that long, if you look at Motsog that one was probably even shorter, though a bit more condensed. So, when you say - this kind of treatment for Throkhar plot thread - I don't see it being nearly enough, with what they have here with this antagonist. Like, the kind of "reading the Black Book with Gandalf" instanced experiences could alone equal some reoccurring nightmares about Throkhar we're having (during completely different expac storyline), once this plot actually turns into an *active* plot thread (so far it's been very secretive one), but that would still be far from actually tackling the menace which would require its own wealth of time, build-up and updates. For example.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

But even then it's just a sideline thing overall (overshadowed by the actual larger, more separate plot concerning the dwarves and Karazgar), with the readings of the book in-between.

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Imagine reading the conclusion of Voin's Tale and thinking it was just a footnote and unimportant. Couldn't be me!

MoL

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Originally Posted by MadeofLions

Imagine reading the conclusion of Voin's Tale and thinking it was just a footnote and unimportant. Couldn't be me!

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MoL... I said readings of the Voin's book during Ered Mithrin/Vales content. Not Minas Morgul... and didn't refer to its conclusion at all in that paragraph... and never said unimportant... Also, I loved Voin's story and how it was constructed, I even expressed that somewhere above. You're embarrassing yourself now :P

(But it's ok, you're busy with development so... keep up the good work!)

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Oh, I strongly disagree. Giving in to shipping desires and other superficial fan service - or forced marketing needs but that's not really on the writers - are things that ruin stories and narratives. Taking care to deliver good, satisfying pay-offs or more extensive arcs to things that appear big enough to your fans/readers/watchers - because you made them feel so in the first place through many different points in the narrative, it's not like these feelings arise from nowhere on a whim - is a hallmark of good writing and tying up plot threads in good, impressive ways. It doesn't mean write your story how fans want it, it means take care and take your time to make it worth it, and, if by any chance you personally miscalculated/didn't expect that/ didn't really thought of something logical that the fans did, perhaps adjust your own writer's POV and be ready to improve your own take to make it feel good in the end (Now, of course I'm not talking about something like fan "UFO level" conspiracy theories based on a shape of belt on someone's clothes, which is indeed just a silly fan forcefully looking for things absent of any context/premise when they aren't there, but actual strong narrative points and characterization of characters now that's a different thing entirely)

Also, what I'm saying = in a way that makes sense, because usually you'll find that fans who point out such things in franchises/arcs that came to disappointing conclusions are rightly pointing out inconsistencies that can be observed, ranging from plot points to strongly established premises that weren't really strongly followed up on.

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And here's the problem, how viewers see things =/= how it was actually set up, nor does it mean the writers made them feel so.

This is, in actuality, a very common issue in series fandoms. A writer will set up something as a minor subplot to be solved later, fans latch onto it, spend years constantly building ever greater and more complex theories about how it will be solved, then it actually gets solved in a rather mundane way, as it was actually set up in the first place. People come out disappointed it wasn't the elaborate thing they imaged even when, looking back on it objectively, the thing was never set up to be that big in the first place. I've seen this happen in everything from Star Trek to Guild Wars 2.

When thinking about how plots progress you should always remember K.I.S.S. Keep is simple stupid, you should never add complexity to plot beyond whats absolutely necessary to move the plot. The answers and narrative paths for most things are far more simple then people make them out to be because thats what makes the most sense.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

You're clearly mistaking a "game chapter" (that they have for these new epic quest format) with a particular plot thread. Black Book (=Voin) doesn't really start until a certain connected Tale-spinner is introduced and then deep into Iron Hills - the actual book itself. But even then it's just a sideline thing overall (overshadowed by the actual larger, more separate plot concerning the dwarves and Karazgar), with the readings of the book in-between. Lasts until the Vales and then comes together more clearly and actually kicks off with Minas Morgul which was one expac (and even then the Mordor part of it wasn't that much Voin-connected). And I don't complain - the nature of the plot thread made it acceptable and very satisfying nevertheless. But overall, the Voin one wasn't really that long, if you look at Motsog that one was probably even shorter, though a bit more condensed. So, when you say - this kind of treatment for Throkhar plot thread - I don't see it being nearly enough, with what they have here with this antagonist. Like, the kind of "reading the Black Book with Gandalf" instanced experiences could alone equal some reoccurring nightmares about Throkhar we're having (during completely different expac storyline), once this plot actually turns into an *active* plot thread (so far it's been very secretive one), but that would still be far from actually tackling the menace which would require its own wealth of time, build-up and updates. For example.

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I was speaking about the overall storyline of the Black Book, not the actual Black Book itself.

And I'm aware but earlier you were suggesting a similar structure/length for Throkhar which I disagreed with because I think Throkhar the plot thread (not overall story of a "chapter/storyline" where he might make the first appearance) may not feel satisfying enough if it's the kind of object!Black Book and Voin focus/length. That's why I made this comparison. Although, once again... for Voin and his Black Book it was done really nice and the length with early, sideline scholar readings alongside Gandalf worked just fine in this case! Was beautifully done and the conclusion was just some of the best of SSG.

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

And here's the problem, how viewers see things =/= how it was actually set up, nor does it mean the writers made them feel so.

When thinking about how plots progress you should always remember K.I.S.S. Keep is simple stupid, you should never add complexity to plot beyond whats absolutely necessary to move the plot. The answers and narrative paths for most things are far more simple then people make them out to be because thats what makes the most sense.

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Or maybe... you're just extremely in favor of simple/shorter stories? Because both are perfectly valid and both approaches have their uses/appeal in storytelling. It doesn't just all need to be one way or the other. Also, I literally pointed out the difference between fans seeing what they want to see where things are evidently just not there (and it's just their own obsession manufacturing things) vs there actually being noticeable mismatch/inconsistency in the narrative - how it guided you before vs what it chose to do later which may feel disappointing/not a good conclusion/a wasted plot. But you're right back into "all disappointed fans must just be silly and seeing things, the writers are perfect and evidently never at fault" mindset which is just not true, I don't agree.

Well, I wouldn't know of Star Trek or Guild Wars, but when it comes to some IPs and series it isn't even always the fault of one particular writer but also some mess in the writing room. Say, there is that one guy mostly responsible for some of such story threads, lore and continuity, but then they're sidelined and some others start to do some things more on a whim, without even realizing they screwed up, so what was previously an anticipated/intriguing plot or character ends up as 'meh'. For example.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

And I'm aware but earlier you were suggesting a similar structure/length for Throkhar which I disagreed with because I think Throkhar the plot thread (not overall story of a "chapter/storyline" where he might make the first appearance) may not feel satisfying enough if it's the kind of object!Black Book and Voin focus/length. That's why I made this comparison. Although, once again... for Voin and his Black Book it was done really nice and the length with early, sideline scholar readings alongside Gandalf worked just fine in this case! Was beautifully done and the conclusion was just some of the best of SSG.

Or maybe... you're just extremely in favor of simple/shorter stories? Because both are perfectly valid and both approaches have their uses/appeal in storytelling. It doesn't just all need to be one way or the other. Also, I literally pointed out the difference between fans seeing what they want to see where things are evidently just not there (and it's just their own obsession manufacturing things) vs there actually being noticeable mismatch/inconsistency in the narrative - how it guided you before vs what it chose to do later which may feel disappointing/not a good conclusion/a wasted plot. But you're right back into "all disappointed fans must just be silly and seeing things, the writers are perfect and evidently never at fault" mindset which is just not true, I don't agree.

Well, I wouldn't know of Star Trek or Guild Wars, but when it comes to some IPs and series it isn't even always the fault of one particular writer but also some mess in the writing room. Say, there is that one guy mostly responsible for some of such story threads, lore and continuity, but then they're sidelined and some others start to do some things more on a whim, without even realizing they screwed up, so what was previously an anticipated/intriguing plot or character ends up as 'meh'. For example.

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I like both long and complex stories, so long as the narrative actually needs it to progress smoothly.

No one said it has to be one way or the other, KISS isn't a justification of only short/simple stories, only an argument that stories should only been as long/complex as necessary, and not more.

Likewise, I never made the argument that all fans are silly/seeing things and writers are perfect/never at fault.

I don't particularly like the rather long string of straw mans you made here.

Dude, there are no straw mans here, just passionately discussing things. And you did latched onto "how viewers see things =/= how it was actually set up, nor does it mean the writers made them feel so" and a rant about fans just seeing things under my post, like you disapproved of what I said about there being fans seeing things and there being fans rightly disappointed (from that quoted post). So I just responded to do that

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

KISS isn't a justification of only short/simple stories, only an argument that stories should only been as long/complex as necessary, and not more.

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To me it sounds a bit like justification though. Because stories don't necessarily need to be longer/complex (can always come up with a shorter version that's somehow justified) but - that's the thing - they *can* be longer/more complex and then explore some more/maybe feel much more satisfying. It's never like there is just one golden threshold that shouldn't be crossed, particularly with stories and premises that have lots of potential to tap into.

Going back to the topic of the thread, any clues about the next region? Do you think the corsair ship is a hint? Were there hints like this before previous expansions/quest packs?

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Originally Posted by provamail10

Going back to the topic of the thread, any clues about the next region? Do you think the corsair ship is a hint? Were there hints like this before previous expansions/quest packs?

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Well, Scenario said in a livestream that the next zone is very far from Cardolan and Swanfleet; so, it's probably not Minhiriath.

Usually, for quite an initial while, the next expansions of the game were linear. Eregion hinted at Moria, which hinted at Lothlorien, which hinted at Mirkwood. Eregion also hinted at Enedwaith, which hinted at Dunland / RoI, which also hinted at Rohan. Great River, East Rohan, Wildermore, West Rohan, and Entwood were pretty straight forward, as well as the Gondorian regions. The Wastes was a prelude to Mordor.

That predictability ended with Black Book of Mordor where, suddenly, the map jumped around. Strongholds of the North came out of nowhere, though arguably the Dwarven and Elf Allegiances hinted at them. Iron Hills, Ered Mithrin, and Vales of Anduin all surrounded the zone. Minas Morgul was a long time coming. Ered Mithrin already bordered Elderslade, which had the exterior of Gundabad.

This year's focus on Eriador zones pretty much makes the next level cap content the first time we can't really predict where a natural follow-up would be. The corsair ship could well be a hint along with mentions of salt water. Perhaps a leap into Umbar without connecting landscape and "building the world back to Gondor" is a thing we could see in the future - just as it took some time to link the then-disconnected landmass of Strongholds of the North to the rest of the world, really through the tiny Duskenvales near Lothlorien and some passes in the Misties.

They could pull something similar with Rhun, I suppose, and Nurn is long overdue. I still need to listen to Scenario's more recent livestream; it sounds like there were some more clues in there?

Cheers! :D

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Originally Posted by provamail10

Going back to the topic of the thread, any clues about the next region? Do you think the corsair ship is a hint? Were there hints like this before previous expansions/quest packs?

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If the corsair ship was a clue... i'm pretty sure just a clue towards Umbar as the storyline. But its hard to tell. The best way to find clues is to watch for landscape changes. That's how we found the Angle, Yondershire, and Cardolan/Swanfleet.

Speaking of... while running around the edges of South Ithilien, did that semi-distant gondorian villa/city/ruin (?) always exist in the hills out there (almost directly south of where the haradrim have scaffolded their way up a cliff)? I don't remember it, but that doesn't mean it wasn't always there.

Doing the same around the wastes and Mordor it all looked pretty much the same... even the pale green unpainted regions of the Dagorlad just east of the hills was the same as its been. And with the Gate to Nurn its hard to tell since that Gate Fortress area is so large and has always been closed off blocking any line of site beyond it.

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Originally Posted by Feral_Yoda

If the corsair ship was a clue... i'm pretty sure just a clue towards Umbar as the storyline. But its hard to tell. The best way to find clues is to watch for landscape changes. That's how we found the Angle, Yondershire, and Cardolan/Swanfleet.

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by Feral_Yoda

Speaking of... while running around the edges of South Ithilien, did that semi-distant gondorian villa/city/ruin (?) always exist in the hills out there (almost directly south of where the haradrim have scaffolded their way up a cliff)? I don't remember it, but that doesn't mean it wasn't always there.

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It was always there since South Ithilien launched :)

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Originally Posted by Feral_Yoda

Doing the same around the wastes and Mordor it all looked pretty much the same... even the pale green unpainted regions of the Dagorlad just east of the hills was the same as its been. And with the Gate to Nurn its hard to tell since that Gate Fortress area is so large and has always been closed off blocking any line of site beyond it.

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Agreed.

Cheers! :D

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Originally Posted by provamail10

Going back to the topic of the thread, any clues about the next region? Do you think the corsair ship is a hint? Were there hints like this before previous expansions/quest packs?

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Well, there are a few possibilities. What do we know? We know it resolves around a body of water and that there is an instance cluster in the area. This excludes Rhûn and also excludes south Gondor most likely cause there is not much to do around here. Than we have Nurn, which has it's own sea and has the potential for instances cause there are probably still threats looming there. Than we also have Anfalas which could resolve around the corsairs, although that has been drained dry in Gondor as it is. My bet would be on Nurn most likely, and setting up so it can connect to Umbar, Harad, Khand, Rhûn and maybe an unnamed-in-canon place between Rhûn and Khand. It could be a new Bree-land, almost completely surrounded by other regions in a couple of years.

If the hint from Scenario wasn't made I would have said we went to Forodwaith and assault the hobgoblins there, and potentially realise that they are living there without harming others or something and seeing an orc empire being constructed in the north.

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Originally Posted by Hierona

My bet would be on Nurn most likely, and setting up so it can connect to Umbar, Harad, Khand, Rhûn and maybe an unnamed-in-canon place between Rhûn and Khand. It could be a new Bree-land, almost completely surrounded by other regions in a couple of years.

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I could very easily see a story that involves

• Going to Nurn to deal with the remaining Mordor baddies, and learning Borangos needs something to get the power under Mount Doom
• That thing being sealed somewhere in Anfalas in the distant past by the elves, or whoever sealed him(elves are said to have inhabited the long shore in ages past)
• We go there only to find it was taken back to Umbar by the remaining corsairs as loot, them not knowing what it is
• Due to Gondor's navy still being jacked from the war we have to go the long way through Southgard and Harondor(maybe a portal from southern Harondor to Umbar since Umbar is said to be the closest of the Harard Kingdoms to Gondor and near Harad is a largely empty desert)
• We get to Umbar and deal with some issues there, but Borangos get the mcguffin and goes back to Mordor
• We confront him in some citadel in Lithlad, and stop him from getting.... whatever is under Mt Doom he covets so much.

This would be an easy way to tie into various dangling plot threads like the Mordor slaves, the Harard kingdoms trying to make peace with Gondor, cleaning up the Corsairs, Lhaereth the Stained's last plans, etc.

They could even use this as a prelude to going back up north to deal with the Nameless/Rhun issues, tie this ancient power under Mt Doom to the leader of the Nameless or something. Borangos had been sealed for so long he didn't know who Sauron was, would make some senses hes after some ancient power that could date back to whenever the Nameless were made.

And there isn't any unnamed place between Khand and Rhun in lore, everything east of Mordor from the borders of Forodwaith, to the southern sea, is Rhun. Khand borders it and Harad.

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

I could very easily see a story that involves

• That thing being sealed somewhere in Anfalas in the distant past by the elves, or whoever sealed him(elves are said to have inhabited the long shore in ages past)
• We go there only to find it was taken back to Umbar by the remaining corsairs as loot, them not knowing what it is

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can anybody give me a lotro-lore refresh on this? I don't remember reading of an elven something sealed in Anfalas, but also it's been a good while since I ran a char through all the Gondor epic so my memory is missing a lot of pieces

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Originally Posted by miriadel

can anybody give me a lotro-lore refresh on this? I don't remember reading of an elven something sealed in Anfalas, but also it's been a good while since I ran a char through all the Gondor epic so my memory is missing a lot of pieces

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There is no lore about the elves sealing something in Anfalas, only that they lived there. I just proposed they could use that as an excuse.

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

• We get to Umbar and deal with some issues there, but Borangos get the mcguffin and goes back to Mordor
• We confront him in some citadel in Lithlad, and stop him from getting.... whatever is under Mt Doom he covets so much.

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That kind of back-and-forth on the map with a major villain works really nice with Karazgar due to his Assassin Nature and overall characterization (he is kinda like a reflection of the PC, doing the dirty work and scouting all over the place) but it doesn't strike me as likely for someone like Borangos (or his fire maiden) floating all over the place (like from one climate zone to the other) suddenly in search of things in distant lands in preparation for something that he had on his mind for the last age, probably. Trying to establish such plot connections may be pushing it and not subtly so. The only others we've seen involved in that kind of back-and-forth were Amarthiel and Mordrambor back in SoA but even then, they were pretty much limited to surrounding areas. Karazgar is still a marathon winner here, would be weird to see that changed. Speaking of Borangos, makes me wonder whether a whole new secret secret forgotten area can be opened for exploration between that Watching-stone in Thuringwath and the tunnels with the Nameless Emissary in the furthest reaches of Lhinghris

As for the next landmass... I really want that Producer Letter to drop, how long do we have to wait? It will certainly shed some light

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

As for the next landmass... I really want that Producer Letter to drop, how long do we have to wait? It will certainly shed some light

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The Producer's Letter was delayed cause they had to make some more decisions first. It originally was suppose to be published in December, and Orion said now it is scheduled for mid januari. #GiveProducer'sLetterPls

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

That kind of back-and-forth on the map with a major villain works really nice with Karazgar due to his Assassin Nature and overall characterization (he is kinda like a reflection of the PC, doing the dirty work and scouting all over the place) but it doesn't strike me as likely for someone like Borangos (or his fire maiden) floating all over the place (like from one climate zone to the other) suddenly in search of things in distant lands in preparation for something that he had on his mind for the last age, probably. Trying to establish such plot connections may be pushing it and not subtly so. The only others we've seen involved in that kind of back-and-forth were Amarthiel and Mordrambor back in SoA but even then, they were pretty much limited to surrounding areas. Karazgar is still a marathon winner here, would be weird to see that changed. Speaking of Borangos, makes me wonder whether a whole new secret secret forgotten area can be opened for exploration between that Watching-stone in Thuringwath and the tunnels with the Nameless Emissary in the furthest reaches of Lhinghris

As for the next landmass... I really want that Producer Letter to drop, how long do we have to wait? It will certainly shed some light

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Its not really that much back and forth, or all over the place.

• Nurn and Lithlad are literally part of Mordor, and right next to Gorgoroth
• Southgard, Harondor, and Umbar, are all pretty close to Mordor, with the former two areas touching Mordor's mountain ranges.
• The furthest bit away is Anfalas, which is nowhere near as far from Mordor as like the Amarthiel/Mordrambor stuff went, let alone the Saruman story which had his forces all over the place from Moria, to Rohan, Dunland, and all the way up into Breeland, and the Shire.

And it being on his mind for the last age really doesn't change his ability to do anything about it until now. Hes not exactly going to be leaving Mordor to trek over to Anfalas, while looking for something to help him get some power under Mt Doom, when Sauron is still alive and would just kill him if he suspected Borangos was doing anything to sieze power like that.

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

• The furthest bit away is Anfalas, which is nowhere near as far from Mordor as like the Amarthiel/Mordrambor stuff went, let alone the Saruman story which had his forces all over the place from Moria, to Rohan, Dunland, and all the way up into Breeland, and the Shire.

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It is pretty far... If you want to measure it fairly, then Amarthiel and Mordrambor operated from Angmar, not Mordor. With Saruman it's scouting parties and spy networks, strategically build up/send in directions of interest to him, through convenient routes where they wouldn't be discovered nor opposed (like Minhiriath), makes it easier.

Not saying it couldn't work at all, depends on the idea of course, and if, then probably one of his Rogmul servants would be better (or one summoned by someone else to make the thing more efficient). Still, the idea of a mcguffin like that may be a bit weird (the stone of... ancient fire! or something? a bit too stereotypical). Speaking of mcguffin plots, I think it would work perfectly if they used that type of scenario to follow up on Brathar/Dourhands and develop their history more. It makes perfect sense for Brathar to try and chase some kind of relic/jewel to legitimize himself as a new Dourhand king, for example, and it would fit the themes of Tolkien, with allusions to Arkenstone and importance of other jewels of his world. Considering Dourhand long term status as scattered people - such Indiana Jones chase may very well take us in all sorts of directions to visit different ruins, with as-of-yet unexplored corners of the Misty Mountains, blank spots of Southern Eriador, around Forochel, or ultimately Ered Luin where the old kingdom of the Dourhands used to be and maybe they could use that as a threat/plot hook when we go to Lindon.

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

Its not really that much back and forth, or all over the place.

• Nurn and Lithlad are literally part of Mordor, and right next to Gorgoroth
• Southgard, Harondor, and Umbar, are all pretty close to Mordor, with the former two areas touching Mordor's mountain ranges.
• The furthest bit away is Anfalas, which is nowhere near as far from Mordor as like the Amarthiel/Mordrambor stuff went, let alone the Saruman story which had his forces all over the place from Moria, to Rohan, Dunland, and all the way up into Breeland, and the Shire.

And it being on his mind for the last age really doesn't change his ability to do anything about it until now. Hes not exactly going to be leaving Mordor to trek over to Anfalas, while looking for something to help him get some power under Mt Doom, when Sauron is still alive and would just kill him if he suspected Borangos was doing anything to sieze power like that.

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From our destination right now in game, Gundabad, it's seems logical what we can look into what hides behind orcs and angmarians fighting to keep Gundabad on their side. Don't forget what we have entrance from Gundabad to Angmar. At first, we cosnider what it's related to Volume 5 (Peace in the Middle-earth) and we quickly go from Angmar to The Shire and Grey Havens, but what if we have different reason to stay in Angmar? To find hidden force what keep all orc tribes fight together. All that places (Harad, Umbar, Nurn) far far from Gondor, and Aragorn go to them only after he make sure what orcs never strike back again

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Originally Posted by Elmagor

From our destination right now in game, Gundabad, it's seems logical what we can look into what hides behind orcs and angmarians fighting to keep Gundabad on their side. Don't forget what we have entrance from Gundabad to Angmar. At first, we cosnider what it's related to Volume 5 (Peace in the Middle-earth) and we quickly go from Angmar to The Shire and Grey Havens, but what if we have different reason to stay in Angmar? To find hidden force what keep all orc tribes fight together. All that places (Harad, Umbar, Nurn) far far from Gondor, and Aragorn go to them only after he make sure what orcs never strike back again

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We know that the next region involves the smell of salt water, and is very far away from Enedwaith and Minhiriath. I don't think the Iron Pass is the next map since that doesn't really jive with what we've been told. and SSG has long said the Scouring is very far away,

Also, Angmar itself has fallen. We hear about it in the whole Grey Company plot that its coffers are drained, there's various infighting factions, Angmarium are trying to leave because of how broken it is, etc. etc. While some of them organized into something coherent for Gundabad, I don't think we'll be going back to Angmar itself. Hell, from what we've been told the Angmarium plot was basically supposed to be wrapped up in Gundabad, only for the related instance not to get made.

While its possible we will get a proper Iron Pass map to fill in between Gundabad and Angmar, I think it would be kind of odd. It would be a map that

• Follows up on story bits from Gundabad
• But isn't in the Rhovanian map space
• But is connected to Angmar since its on the Eriador side
• Which would put a level 140+ zone directly connected to a level 50 zone, with the 140 zone taking place long later chronologically.
• The alternative is that its connected to Gundabad as part of the Rhovanian world map, but to actually get to the map itself you have to go into the Eriador map

The whole thing is just kind of a mess.

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Originally Posted by Tirian-Hammerfist

As for Scenario… Scenario lies! (Although to be fair, I think he’s usually just given indirect answers rather than direct untruths! :D )

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I like to think of my comments as fomenting discussion.

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Originally Posted by Scenario

I like to think of my comments as fomenting discussion.

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That they undoubtedly do!

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

from what we've been told the Angmarium plot was basically supposed to be wrapped up in Gundabad, only for the related instance not to get made.

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Well yeah, would have been pretty lame though, if true. Same as I felt about Brathar and the Dourhands part of it, pretty much. It's one thing to end a long-in-the-making plot/character on a BAM, like they've done with Mordirith, while taking down a few others, like Ugrukhor who was never really that interesting to begin with, besides this still happened by bringing his arc to a close (his search for Karazgar). It's another to specifically bring back characters and premises long thought gone for content where technically they were not needed, with quite interesting build-up and set of characters/mysteries, only to immediately axe it all with an instance and everyone dropping dead there, in a region that's not even near conclusion to its expansion and more like a footnote/diversion of the expansion. "The master in the muck" arc/mystery made sense and fed into the mountain itself, and that got a good development/conclusion, but Car Bronach not really and note that 90% of the quest content was basically scouting around the map which felt more like mere intro than anything else... but then it's suddenly that raid on the spire and the end. But it's ok if it wasn't really the end, ultimately. Also, I'm not even sure it was truly supposed to be the end... because there were all these Epic story plot bits introduced, with letters sent by people who clearly weren't in Car Bronach, so that would still hint at there being more, unfinished instance or not.

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

• Which would put a level 140+ zone directly connected to a level 50 zone, with the 140 zone taking place long later chronologically.

The whole thing is just kind of a mess.

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I really don't see a problem here. The entry point to the Iron Pass as it is now is fairly isolated anyway. Unless something like "Angmar after" comes into play, but it doesn't seem like it's needed, I agree we won't be doing any questing in the old Angmar region. I can see, however, the possibility of instanced-based visits, perhaps even a trip to Carn Dum. Besides, with Angmarrim spreading out of Angmar and still having some leadership, we can run into them in Iron Pass but also in Further Western Angmar (the gap connecting to Forochel) or Forodwaith areas.

Also, while it may technically be a different time, visually it wouldn't be off at all (just like transitioning to Car Bronach through that gate isn't) because the area would be under Angmar's control anyway in a lvl50 timeframe. We're long past the most "bizarre" transitions to higher level zones, which clearly - visually - feel wrong, such as the burning fords of Isen or Dawnless Day of Gondor assailed by enemies from all sides in every zone. Something like this may happen in Rhun or Harad again, but that's far enough and not such a big issue, just like it's not really an issue for Mordor After Fall version. In Eriador? Rhovanion? If the time frame is post war? No problem at all, nothing would be jarring. You might as well have a lvl cap Lindon through a narrow pass from Ered Luin, with some higher lvl Blue Crag/Dourhand guards, and it wouldn't feel - visually - off.

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

We know that the next region involves the smell of salt water, and is very far away from Enedwaith and Minhiriath.

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Ah! I knew about the comment re: oceans, and whether we liked them or not..... but not that it was far away from Minhirath.

So with that said..... because a few years back the stable map was magically expanded southwards, with a whole empty area where South Gondor could fit in.... I'm going to venture a guess and say that is where we will go next:

- Level 140 zone in early Q2 named "South Gondor" or maybe "Harondor", looking at the Middle Earth map. It would be on the coast towards the west.
- Level 150 full expansion in early Q4 encompassing several Harad zones such as Near Harad, Far Harad, Nafarat, The Cursed Lands..... with Umbar as the new player hub with all facilities. It would also be on the coast towards the west.
- Possible 2024: Khand or Nurn level 150 zone, linking back up to Mordor.

Quick amateurish map:

https://i.imgur.com/ISgG3mq.png

It would certainly be an interesting story to tell. It does not seem likely it will be continuation of Epic book V, but we could see a new "Book of Gondor" type Epic quest line that will takes us into South Gondor, and then into Harad....