Tracking an Old Goat

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Originally Posted by Berephon

Your prayers have been heard and a resolution is coming for Update 6. The resolution is in QA now for verification . . . once it's greenlit, I will divulge more about how it will work.

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Once again Berephon, you give me more reason to love you.

Berephon, best dev since 2007 and counting

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Originally Posted by Berephon

Your prayers have been heard and a resolution is coming for Update 6. The resolution is in QA now for verification . . . once it's greenlit, I will divulge more about how it will work.

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Kudos for re-thinking this one. As I said pages and pages ago I have more respect for a company which can say 'maybe this wasn't a good idea after all' than one which sticks to its guns just for the sake of form. I was vocal about how poorly done I thought this whole situation was, so it's only right that props be given now.

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Originally Posted by Berephon

Your prayers have been heard and a resolution is coming for Update 6. The resolution is in QA now for verification . . . once it's greenlit, I will divulge more about how it will work.

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Great news. Thank you very much, Berephon.

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Originally Posted by Berephon

Your prayers have been heard and a resolution is coming for Update 6. The resolution is in QA now for verification . . . once it's greenlit, I will divulge more about how it will work.

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Wiiiieee! :D
Many thanks to Berephon and other involved!

It probably bears pointing out (yet again) that this deed was only ever added as an attempt to be helpful. During testing, people were complaining about the inability to "prove a negative." In other words, prior to the deed existing, people were frustrated that they could never be sure that there weren't more Andreg quests out there. The deed gave those people certainty. But, unfortunately, it also had unforeseen side-effects which many here have spent a great deal of time documenting.

Now that Berephon has happily announced that this issue has been revisited and a solution is on the way. . . HOW ABOUT A GROUP HUG!?! :p

Ah well, there went a lot of wasted FRAPs video. . . :D

--H

I felt it was quite clear that the npc couldn't be summoned, and that the RED text we've all been trained to look for made it painfully obvious. ; I am sympathetic to people who want their deed and look forward to hearing +Bere's ingenious and likely generous solution, but I do feel the deed was more than fair, even if it is difficult to get all the quests triggered.

Aren't we all glad there's no corresponding deed for Orchawale's quests in Annuminas?

Wow. . . truly amazing. Even in the face of the incoming solution, we still have people coming in here merely to be obtuse while patting themselves on the back. . .

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Originally Posted by Crell_1

I felt it was quite clear that the npc couldn't be summoned, and that the RED text we've all been trained to look for made it painfully obvious. ;

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The warning, as written, does not convey sufficient information and is far from "painfully obvious" for those without prior knowledge of the game mechanics involved.

http://www.dor-lomin.com/images/foru...o/andreg-2.jpg

It warns that one should complete "underway" quests before clicking "continue" (the only button available, btw, for people unaware of the "x" in the upper-right). At no point is the player made aware that Andreg had other quests he could have offered had the player not moved a few paces off a predetermined, yet invisible, path. At no point is it made clear to the player that the "Tracking the Old Goat" deed depends entirely on Andreg remaining available.

Without those two other pieces of information, that warning is essentially worthless for the purpose of keeping people out of a broken deed state. So while it might have seemed "painfully obvious" to you. . . the aside below:

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Aren't we all glad there's no corresponding deed for Orchawale's quests in Annuminas?

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. . . actually betrays the reason you found everything so "painfully obvious." You happened to have done the similar content grafted onto Annuminas (I doubt anyone who hadn't would know the name of the bestower). It's a shame you see the warning as "painfully obvious" and consider it clear only because your prior knowledge/experience allowed you to fill in the gaps which make it unclear/insufficient for others.

--H

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Originally Posted by Hurin

You happened to have done the similar content grafted onto Annuminas (I doubt anyone who hadn't would know the name of the bestower). It's a shame you see the warning as "painfully obvious" and consider it clear only because your prior knowledge/experience allowed you to fill in the gaps which make it unclear/insufficient for others.

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Red text litters other quests as a warning elsewhere. Off the top of my head here's two. The festival quest in Yule, the Poachers choice in Lothlorien. Both are linked to deeds.


Just because I have a propensity to recall obscure details, does not mean this is the reason I felt it was obvious.

I'll now precede to + rep you for informing players of the 'x' that lets you close dialogue boxes, as well as your photographic documentation. They really do add value to the thread.

(That is as soon as I can ... It's been a very busy rep day with some other threads.)

As to Annuminas, I did those quests by hand, worked to compile a list and figure out what I was missing by comparing it to others. If they ever add a quest, I want the ability to do it. Content is content. :)

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Originally Posted by Berephon

Your prayers have been heard and a resolution is coming for Update 6. The resolution is in QA now for verification . . . once it's greenlit, I will divulge more about how it will work.

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Very good news.

To say "thank you", I'll buy a Nimblefoot Goat in the LotRO-store soon.

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Originally Posted by Crell_1

Red text litters other quests as a warning elsewhere. Off the top of my head here's two. The festival quest in Yule, the Poachers choice in Lothlorien. Both are linked to deeds.

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So? The mechanics are nowhere near the same. And the warnings in those cases are worded in such a way as to be sufficient. It's alarming to me that you think "other quests have red text" is somehow a compelling argument or point.

The point here is that the red text in this case merely says (paraphrasing): "Don't dismiss this guy if you still have quests that he gave you that you haven't finished."

Again, you can read that warning, fully comprehend it, and even abide by it by finishing the underway quests he gave you. . . and you can still be stuck with an incomplete deed because what is unsaid is that other quests exist --of which you are unaware-- which will now be unavailable to you. Even people who glanced at the deed as it pops up need not have assumed that "Tracking an Old Goat" is a deed that is intended to serve as a checklist for Andreg. A reasonable person could assume that any quests left undone on it (which could be as many as four or five) at the time Andreg is asking to be released will be bestowed by others elsewhere.

I'm sorry, but you just don't seem to understand or are incapable of reading that text from the perspective of anyone but yourself. I can see how you're reading it. You don't seem to be able to see how others read it without your prior knowledge.

--H

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Originally Posted by Berephon

Your prayers have been heard and a resolution is coming for Update 6. The resolution is in QA now for verification . . . once it's greenlit, I will divulge more about how it will work.

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Excellent news. Many thanks Berephon.

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Originally Posted by Crell_1

Aren't we all glad there's no corresponding deed for Orchawale's quests in Annuminas?

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Who?

Thanks for passing on the news Berephon.

Its good to know I will not have the one deed sticking out like dogs....... when I finish that area off.

Nothing more to add that others haven't already said, thanks for taking another look at this deed Berephon. It's ironic (and annoying!) my main that I leveled first doesn't have it done, but all my alts do!

Nothing classier than a company admitting they're not above making mistakes and bad judgement from time to time. Kudos.

Thank you, Berephon.

I'm not a completionist, but on my main, I did keep Andreg an extra week, even purposely stepped in the traps, and posted here at the start to say, "Hey, I did read everything, but Andreg never gave the quests." The reason was because, as an Explorer, I am constantly veering away to get wood and ore nodes. So, I never hit some of the places I had to. Despite the folks posting on how "obvious" it is, even now, on my alts, I had to sit there, armed with the map locations, and still sometimes he wouldn't give me the quest right away.

So I am glad there is a fix, for all the completionists.

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Originally Posted by Berephon

Your prayers have been heard and a resolution is coming for Update 6. The resolution is in QA now for verification . . . once it's greenlit, I will divulge more about how it will work.

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O_o

Okay, that's a surprise and I'll be willing to say this : THANK YOU.

Now, will this 'resolution' work for that summoned npc (Orchalwal or something) with the same mechanics in Annuminas?

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Originally Posted by LadyDena

O_o

Okay, that's a surprise and I'll be willing to say this : THANK YOU.

Now, will this 'resolution' work for that summoned npc (Orchalwal or something) with the same mechanics in Annuminas?

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No. The only reason this fix is being done here is the deed...that should either A) never have been created (preferred) or B) been truly failable (which would remove it from the journal) from the beginning. The Orchalwë line is working as intended (and the way this line was intended -- which has been rendered no longer possible.)

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Originally Posted by Thesrion

Who?

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Orchalwe. Annuminas. I guess you've never gone through Evendim since it was revamped. There's a quest line in the city of Annuminas where you summon Orchalwe (away from his post in Tinnidur, I guess) and run around the city. He gives two quests to start with, then a bunch of quests as you run around the city.

Thanks again for the good news Berephon. Just a quick note. . .

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Originally Posted by Berephon

B) been truly failable (which would remove it from the journal) from the beginning.

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. . . I hope this isn't the beginning of a new precedent where "truly failable" will become a norm. Because up to this point, I think most people consider deeds to be "at your leisure" kinds of things that you can't fail.

And, I hate to continue to harp on this, but even had this deed been "truly failable" and the deed were to have disappeared after people got stuck, I think you still would have had a substantial outcry from folks because of the unclear/inadequate (where the deed was concerned) "red warning" Andreg gives prior to being dismissed forever. And because of the unfortunate "only one choice" button presented at that point.

To my mind, even if there were just one additional sentence to the "red warning", you would have been technically in the clear. Something along the lines of: "It is necessary for you to find and complete all quests bestowed by Andreg between Amlan's camp and the Rohirrim Scout Camp in order to successfully complete the deed entitled Tracking an Old Goat." Lacking that additional line, you'd just have a bunch of people still screaming that they read the warning, heeded the warning (by finishing underway quests), and still failed the deed (which was never obviously linked to Andreg in such a critical way). With that additional line, I think you're in the clear.

But I still hope "failable deeds" won't be a new norm. Even if there are already a few in the game (some have said there are. . . I've never personally seen one).

But then again, perhaps all of this is why your preference would have been for the deed to have never existed! :p

At this point, this is all hypothetical and I don't mean to distract from the good news and the gratitude we should all be feeling for you taking the time to revisit this issue and develop a solution. Thanks again!

--H

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Originally Posted by Hurin

Thanks again for the good news Berephon. Just a quick note. . .



. . . I hope this isn't the beginning of a new precedent where "truly failable" will become a norm. Because up to this point, I think most people consider deeds to be "at your leisure" kinds of things that you can't fail.

And, I hate to continue to harp on this, but even had this deed been "truly failable" and the deed were to have disappeared after people got stuck, I think you still would have had a substantial outcry from folks because of the unclear/inadequate (where the deed was concerned) "red warning" Andreg gives prior to being dismissed forever. And because of the unfortunate "only one choice" button presented at that point.

To my mind, even if there were just one additional sentence to the "red warning", you would have been technically in the clear. Something along the lines of: "It is necessary for you to find and complete all quests bestowed by Andreg between Amlan's camp and the Rohirrim Scout Camp in order to successfully complete the deed entitled Tracking an Old Goat." Lacking that additional line, you'd just have a bunch of people still screaming that they read the warning, heeded the warning (by finishing underway quests), and still failed the deed (which was never obviously linked to Andreg in such a critical way). With that additional line, I think you're in the clear.

But I still hope "failable deeds" won't be a new norm. Even if there are already a few in the game (some have said there are. . . I've never personally seen one).

But then again, perhaps all of this is why your preference would have been for the deed to have never existed! :p

At this point, this is all hypothetical and I don't mean to distract from the good news and the gratitude we should all be feeling for you taking the time to revisit this issue and develop a solution. Thanks again!

--H

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There are some in the game already and most folks don't notice simply because they disappear and are no longer taunting them. However, this is not the norm, and we agree that it should not become so...the better tac is simply not to make a deed in a situation where it might become blocked, and that is what should have happened here originally.

At any rate, this particular situation has necessitated a different solution...still testing, but we'll let you know what it is when we can! :)

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Originally Posted by Berephon

There are some in the game already and most folks don't notice simply because they disappear and are no longer taunting them. However, this is not the norm, and we agree that it should not become so...the better tac is simply not to make a deed in a situation where it might become blocked, and that is what should have happened here originally.

At any rate, this particular situation has necessitated a different solution...still testing, but we'll let you know what it is when we can! :)

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Two things.
1) Thank you for fixing this.
2) May I formally voice my opinion that I do not support increasing the amount of "permanent failure" content in the game. You seem to be under the impression that the thing that is wrong here is the incompletable deed. That is incorrect. Don't get me wrong, the incompletable deed is what brought this attention. But it's just a side-effect of the true problem. What's truly wrong, in the minds of many players, is the existence of only-one-chance content. The very nature of the game reinforces a "try, try again" mindset. Randomly throwing out this "permanent failure" content in small pockets around the game world doesn't make things interesting. It makes me not trust the game. Lotro is not supposed to be a "punishing" game. This punishing mechanic makes me feel like Charlie Brown after Lucy yanks away the football. I feel cheated. Please, do not add more of this only-one-chance content.

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Originally Posted by Lazlo_Hollyfeld

2) May I formally voice my opinion that I do not support increasing the amount of "permanent failure" content in the game. You seem to be under the impression that the thing that is wrong here is the incompletable deed. That is incorrect. Don't get me wrong, the incompletable deed is what brought this attention. But it's just a side-effect of the true problem. What's truly wrong, in the minds of many players, is the existence of only-one-chance content. The very nature of the game reinforces a "try, try again" mindset. Randomly throwing out this "permanent failure" content in small pockets around the game world doesn't make things interesting. It makes me not trust the game. Lotro is not supposed to be a "punishing" game. This punishing mechanic makes me feel like Charlie Brown after Lucy yanks away the football. I feel cheated. Please, do not add more of this only-one-chance content.

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Agreed. I dont want to have an increase of deeds where you only get one shot unless its a 'choice based' deed where you get option A or option B.

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Originally Posted by Berephon

No. The only reason this fix is being done here is the deed...that should either A) never have been created (preferred) or B) been truly failable (which would remove it from the journal) from the beginning. The Orchalwë line is working as intended (and the way this line was intended -- which has been rendered no longer possible.)

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I really do feel for you, Berephon. This deed was an attempt to be nice and give players something they asked for, only be blown so far out of proportion it's patently ridiculous.

It's a strange fate, all this fuss and furor over so small a thing. Such a little thing...

Still, at least it's coming to it's end. Good on ya for bearing with us. :)

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Originally Posted by Crell_1

Agreed. I dont want to have an increase of deeds where you only get one shot unless its a 'choice based' deed where you get option A or option B.

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Yes, to be clear to the devs kind enough to read these forums and make good changes...

I really like the frostbluff quest choice. It was very clear that a choice was coming both from the story design and from the red text and warnings. I LOVED picking one and doing without the other. This made sense and was an enjoyable character decision.

In contrast. Tracking the old goat was confusing. I've mentioned elsewhere that red herrings don't help with quest dialogs in the game. It was quite possible to read the quest, understand the basic premise of completing an unnamed number of tasks and still not get the number of tasks correct which resulted in failure. THIS was not fun :(

So, for my part, I don't want to see the complex quest designs or arcs to stop... I just want to make sure people are getting options and not just failing because they didn't understand where the dev was intending to take something. (regardless of who's "fault" it was or wasn't). Choice = good. Failing and just missing out completely = bad. ;)

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Originally Posted by Berephon

No. The only reason this fix is being done here is the deed...that should either A) never have been created (preferred) or B) been truly failable (which would remove it from the journal) from the beginning. The Orchalwë line is working as intended (and the way this line was intended -- which has been rendered no longer possible.)

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Hm

Seems like the better approach would be to make deeds "truly complete-able."

Quest line completion deeds? Sure. Disappearing deeds that you failed without knowing you ever began? No thanks.

Fantastic news that is!!! Many thanks in advance.