Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

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Originally Posted by Estelher

Very well put, and I couldn't agree more. I've always thought this about Tolkien's maps, and to my mind there is circumstantial proof. If you look at Tolkien's maps of Rohan and Gondor, he includes very few urban settlements - in Rohan, only Edoras and Helm's Deep (despite himself mentioning Aldburg as Eorl's original seat); and yet both nations can, even at their lowest ebb, field armies numbering in the thousands, and at their greatest - at least in the latter case - tens of thousands. Those numbers simply would not have been possible in a non-nomadic people without a considerable number of settlements, of varying sizes.

If one considers the Battle of Stamford Bridge in England in 1066, the English army - constituting for the most part the muster of Earls Edwin and Morcar of Mercia and Northumbria, supplemented by what forces Harold could quickly gather along with his huscarls - numbered some 15,000-20,000, and that part of England was not some unsettled land with only a couple of urban centres: far from it. Tolkien had a masterful knowledge of that period and realm, and couldn't possibly have considered his own invented nations to have been able to muster similar forces without knowing that population centres, not just individual agricultural settlements, were implied.

The only possible inference, I would argue, is that he only included the very greatest cities and most relevant towns in his maps, and that therefore blank spaces do not necessarily mean empty wastelands

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Precisely, my friend! And that - - - - they really are only those cities and towns that members of the Fellowship of the Ring visited across their story - or encountered characters who hailed from certain places.

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Also, to the thread in general, to add some more to it, we also have to add-in the nature of Tolkien's mythpoetic writing process as using the conceit of a frame narrative. Frodo and Sam first write the LOTR - and Bilbo Baggins's translations from Elvish amount to "The Silmarillion" - and the latter also writes both versions of "The Hobbit." Merry and Pippin add what details they may and move the text to Gondor. Then Findegil, King's Scholar, likely during the reign of Eldarion - meaning, after the reign of King Elessar II / Aragorn and Queen Arwen Undomiel - edits the text after the fact.

Two things come together here:

A- Tolkien's sense of historical Time - what is recorded, what is lost, and what happens to general "common knowledge" once those records are lost. In a mostly-medieval-styled society, where many of the populace are illiterate and cannot read or write but who rely chiefly on the passing of tales around campfires, the singing of songs, and overall oral tradition, you have very few "record-keepers" and "curators" of "lore" save in some fixed places. Findegil is the only post-WOTR frame narrator / editor Tolkien tells us of- so that also greatly localizes that preservation in 1 single person. Findegil is our closest approximation to the medieval monastic system in Europe where monks recorded and embellished all sorts of texts and stories.

This has a dramatic impact on how we understand mapping. Thus:

B- Sense of space. Tolkien's sense of how medieval - and other ancient and pre-medieval peoples - understood the world in which they lived. To the Greeks, Greece / Hellas was the center of the World - the heart of civilization - and to their east were non-descript lands, dominated by Medes and Persians, and to their north were the barbarians, and to their south, more barbarians (*the Greek sense of "barbaroi" literally means those who do not speak Greek, for they sound like "barb-barb-barb-barb" gibberish to the Greeks who do not understand their language), and to the west, the flat World ends beyond the Pillars of Hercules / Straits of Gibraltar where Spain and Morocco yield to the Atlantic. Herodotus did some expanded travels- and all sorts of outlandish tales. They were very good at "filling-in blanks" themselves with tales of mythological encounters they believed really happened (*hence, the Lotus-Eaters, etc., in "The Odyssey," and Colchus very far away with the Golden Fleece in the "Argonautica").

They had zero conception of China - or Asia more broadly - or of northern Europe - or of Africa - or of the Americas. Their sense of what the World was proved much confined by their geography. Oceans, deserts - including the Sahara - and great mountain ranges populated by hostile nations - will do that to a people who must rely on horses or just sheer marching to get around anywhere. Of course, eventually, Alexander the Great expanded their knowledge eastward as far as India. Rome expanded their knowledge northward, at least as far as the Rhine, Teuterberg Forest, the Danube, and Hadrian's Wall in England.

It is said that the Numenoreans explored much of Middle-earth with its ships - and that's interesting. It's as if Tolkien puts the "Age of Discovery / Exploration" a bit before the events of LOTR in the Second Age. But when Numenor falls, it's lost - and along with it, the maps - whatever maps they had. To contrast this, much later in the Shire, there are whole communities of Hobbits who have never left their home villages and who regard Hobbits from any other village with great suspicion: extremely localized cultures.

Which brings us back to our sense of Time and lost knowledge, back to A.

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What may we interpret? What facts / or inferred facts might we glean?

A- That Findegil himself was not very well-traveled. Plainly, he never went to Rhun or Harad or Khand - and not even bothered to map all the cities of Rohan. Also, since the only resulting text is "The Red Book of Westmarch" - copied and re-copied and re-copied again - we only know of Edoras because Aragorn and Gandalf and company went there, of Helm's Deep because they fought there, etc.

OR- that the original maps were far more extensive but were lost to Time.

B- That Findegil - as a Gondorian with an extremely long historical grudge against the East and South - even when Sauron was not interfering with them due to losing his ring-finger and going into hiding - is a biased and unreliable editor. He has plenty of grudges to nurse against Gondor's enemies as a Gondorian, "history is only written by the victors," etc. etc. etc. We would never know from him, for example, if Gondor did anything to provoke the Wainriders, etc. etc. etc. Gondor did have a phase where it was very interested in conquest as far south as Umbar and at least out to encompass the inland Sea of Rhun - and I'm not always sure that was "a good thing" - as Numenor's own colonization history greatly places that behavior into doubt in the lore.

It does make me wonder if, when Sam thinks about the fallen Haradrim soldier, there's this:

"It was Sam’s first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man’s name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace – all in a flash of thought which was quickly driven from his mind" (LOTR, TTT, 661).

I think Findegil wrote the "all in a flash of thought which was quickly driven from his mind" to de-emphasize the moment because, well, he's Gondorian (661). I really don't find myself liking what I interpret as Findegil's editorial influence on the Hobbits. I love it when I can tell it's Frodo and Sam or Bilbo writing; Findegil I have little use for, LOL!

Do Boromir and Faramir repeatedly name "the cruel Haradrim" - or did the text originally say "the Haradrim," and Findegil added the word "cruel" to add greater emphasis? (FOTR, 245; TTT, 678). That's yet another example where the - reader - not Tolkien - gets to decide or imagine what it means. Another ambiguity! I choose, for various reasons, to interpret it as Findegil's annoying voice that really does not help Aragorn's line of ascendancy make peace with anyone after the WOTR, in my view. I'm glad he's not Gondor's chief Ambassador or diplomat!

*This is all very important for SSG to portray the East and South humanely - as they did in Dunland - and create some wonderful characters as they did before. I'd also invite them to reintroduce some elements of the Maiar also; the Huntsman played an excellent role in Enedwaith and Dunland, and I would love to see that sort of thing continue! The Valar certainly did their best, in their own small ways, to confront Sauron's influence, and I gently disagree with my friend TesalionLortus RE- Rhun and Harad on that subject. In fact, I'd say the Devs are - obliged - from the Chayasir storyline in Dale-lands and the Haradrim prisoners in North Ithilien and Jajax and his brother in Umbar to further the storylines they have established. We also still have a wild-card in Ayorzen. I'd further remind us that King Elessar II's current efforts center on making peace - though there are some wrinkles from the Gondor Allegiance storyline to sort out. I'd especially say that, generally, every single country in the world has it's own minority / detractors / resistance, and those are either usually stamped out, forced underground, or resist more quietly - or vote in democratic systems. But seldom do you have 100% agreement on anything of value - and doesn't have to be outright "we oppose Sauron in principle"; it could be as simple as, Noble A doesn't want Noble B to have power over him, and so Noble A decides to side with Gondor to dispossess Noble B and gain Noble B's authority, etc. There are plenty of complex avenues to play with!

But when we went through Dunland, in the context of LOTRO, it was plain to me as the player that we were dealing with people, with human beings, and not with some over-washed horse-blinders view of a Findegil. That's what I'm after in the East and South, etc. To maintain that level of writing quality. More recently, Lhan Garan in Swanfleet took the Chayasir route- as flight from disaster or from unsafe living conditions looking for better lives is yet another thing real people tend to do. The "Dunlendings" are not some generalized, over-washed term reduced as Rohan's enemies and just mobs to fight for slayer deeds. The Devs gave them a deep level of humanity I think Tolkien himself would appreciate it- and they are very wise not to hearken to the editorial pen of Findegil when they do so.

*Another case in point: I've just learned that I, myself, am very biased against Findegil! I guess that's because I generally dislike it when a narrative gets filtered through only 1 single voice that determines all else - and what I admire about LOTR is how Tolkien has all these different voices coming together and the many unfolding narrative depths and meanings and interpretations of those meanings we can draw from them! :D That you have Findegil - but you also have our five Hobbits - and you also have the High Elves before them, etc. I also think it's because I've read many Classics and some medieval texts and am aware of where that pattern comes from, and so I tend to look at how those patterns mirror each other between irl mythologies and writings and how Tolkien echoes those in LOTR.

C- That Findegil wrote the Appendices - and so, again, anything about High Elves or ancient history was written long after the fact by this Gondorian scholar in the Fourth Age. That also explains how LOTRO itself becomes possible with our conceit of the player-character as a heavily involved adventurer: Findegil never knew a thing about [us as players]; it simply fell from history and his recognition.

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So, in short, with mapping, Tolkien gives us:

1- A far more limited scope / sense of the world of Middle-earth transcribed by persons who either did not travel to every single town and city or who otherwise once possessed such knowledge, but it was lost.
2- That sense of historical depth and Time and how Time wears away at knowledge, including knowledge of certain tales and storytelling that grow and shift depending on who tells the tale. This also helps mirror the development of myth. Time also wears away "how to" build certain things, how to do certain kinds of tasks, and general knowledge of place / sense of the map and of what one's World is.
3- That sense of how . . . - who - the writer, or editor, or historian is can really affect the way the narrative comes across to readers. Tolkien did a masterful job at mirroring a medieval oral and record-keeping tradition that, like "The Song of Roland" / "Le Chanson de Roland" tends to be very one-sided and written by the victors and often over-embellished to favor one's own side over the other sides.

With Findegil: imagine the entire surviving history of the World getting filtered through one single biased editor - and that single text becoming the sole source of information about said global history. All of it- from the icy shores of Forochel to the jungles of Far Harad, and from the shores of the Sundering Seas to the Orocarni Mountains far to the east of the inland Sea of Rhun.

Tolkien's sheer genius? That it all ultimately came from his own brilliant head IRL - with all the responsibilities he shouldered in his daily life. He successfully mirrored the way history is written, recorded, passed down, and lost, and he successfully mirrored how our understanding of the world changes across time - as well as how we recite, pass down, and then record myths - and how those tales also shift across time. Remarkable.

I'd ask two things of the Devs:

1- I know you're already probably keeping most of this in mind developing the game. Please keep up the great work there!

2- Please do not, under any circumstances, have us learn of Findegil - and do not have Findegil meet us. I don't even want to meet him as an infant. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no - a no for each Fellowship member and Ringwraith. Also, if Gandalf or Aragorn or any Fellowship heroes happen to write down our "player-character" deeds, have them burn-up in a great fire; make them inaccessible to Findegil. Then, LOTRO's narrative consistency broadly remains intact with its relationship with Tolkien's writings.

Cheers! :D

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Originally Posted by Hierona

Well, it is semi announced that maybe there will be a new quest zone around Angmar in 2023, and that we will not go to Rhûn or Harad yet. My guess would be it will be the area between Câr Bronach and Angmar and going more to the north. Might be interesting to see regular Angmarim cities and Hobgoblin breeding grounds and towns. Maybe see some of the Eldgang return in the west of the zone.

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Huh? Where's this info from?

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Originally Posted by Phantion

They had zero conception of China - or Asia more broadly - or of northern Europe - or of Africa - or of the Americas. Their sense of what the World was proved much confined by their geography. Oceans, deserts - including the Sahara - and great mountain ranges populated by hostile nations - will do that to a people who must rely on horses or just sheer marching to get around anywhere. Of course, eventually, Alexander the Great expanded their knowledge eastward as far as India. Rome expanded their knowledge northward, at least as far as the Rhine, Teuterberg Forest, the Danube, and Hadrian's Wall in England.

It is said that the Numenoreans explored much of Middle-earth with its ships - and that's interesting. It's as if Tolkien puts the "Age of Discovery / Exploration" a bit before the events of LOTR in the Second Age. But when Numenor falls, it's lost - and along with it, the maps - whatever maps they had. To contrast this, much later in the Shire, there are whole communities of Hobbits who have never left their home villages and who regard Hobbits from any other village with great suspicion: extremely localized cultures.

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I know there is still so much of the map to cover but... this is exactly why they might as well expand the map further Eastward and Southward (further than any of the Tolkien lore or maps ever showed), if not exactly physically anytime soon, then at least lore-wise, so when we get to hear from Eastern and Southern people we may actually hear hints of what's out there, who lives there and maybe whether and how were they involved in the history of these areas. So these stranger areas of Rhun, Harad and backyard of Mordor aren't just artificially boxed in from all sides where lore remains utterly silent but there are actually things out there.

My silent hope is the Chayasir are actually from beyond Orocarni, still related to Easterlings but pushing a little bit more into that "further Asian" vibe, and their tale, almost as if they were complete strangers to what happened in Rhun they passed by, plus how Easterlings treated them in Iron Hills - the lowest of slaves, ethnically, to be tricked and abused - all give out that vibe, as if they were from someplace else and not much related to Rhun affairs. Granted, their origins were hinted to be somewhere in Dale, so I wonder what's up with that, but since Chayasir turned into such wondering, nomadic people, I guess it wouldn't be far-fetched to say that maybe they integrated more with Easterlings, ethnically, while travelling Eastward in ancient days, but then moved even further, away from even Rhun, so ultimately ended up somewhere on the other side of Orocarni and became strangers even to Easterlings (though their strong ethnical ties are still visible). Also, since they escaped from ruin and mountains shook, well... again, I would say Orocarni because it's a badass mountain chain, so great place for things to be extra shakey due to what's happening with Throkhar, devastation and whatever... whereas the mountains of Rhun near Sea of Rhun... these are really such a small mountains and almost neighborhood of Rhun, if we assume they control the sea shores, no? Plus, it would really build up Throkhar, if that's his doing, as something truly far-reaching, since it makes sense a big enough threat for Middle-earth wouldn't be just West-centered but encompassing all areas of Middle-earth's continent, even the ones well beyond the bounds of any map we have in lore (even more so if that's something else than Sauron who had a particular interest/hatred for the West, so like elves and Gondorians, but something like Throkhar probably doesn't have it, plus his goals wouldn't be exactly... strategically, culturally and army oriented, like Sauron's, but far more chaotic) But we could also be hearing a lot of Sauron's influence spreading Eastward over the years, for good measure, and how his fall was received in different places.

Anyway, there is so much potential and cultural variety to be done here that no other lotr franchise will probably ever tackle (RoP could have done it to some degree with Numenorean setup but failed miserably), so if anyone can do it, it's SSG! This is also why I really hope places like Harad or Rhun aren't just Dunland 2.0 with numerous "freedom fighters" equivalents of Lhanuch and Gartlev. Dunlendings are a relatively small peoples/piece of land, with one common historical enemy in Rohhirims, split into many clans and rather satisfied to stick to their own little world. Harad and Rhun are far more richer and more varied "nations", theoretically, in far greater landmasses. They're not just things within the West that we know of, they're each like their whole entire "West" but one in the East and one in the South, with different peoples, maybe a few nations (like Gondor, Rohan or Dale are), not just clans of basically one and the same subset of peoples. And then rich history of course, with one of such peoples strongly dominating the others or maybe even a "switch" a few times, depending on who was stronger and who was favored by Sauron etc. Plus what's out there even further East/South and maybe how it might have influenced some of their history a few times, the news of which would never even reach the West. For all we know the sudden appearance of Wainraiders in the Western history could have been some kind of conquerors/specific faction getting into power in Rhun/creating an Empire/uniting much of these lands plus maybe something even further East from beyond the bounds of the map and then launching the invasion on the West. (then, once that specific dynasty decayed or some other military reforms were made, the wagons aren't really a "thing" anymore in the present day). Well, I guess the bottom line here and what I mean is... the Middle-earth where the action is taking place is really such a backyard, pretty much, and that includes the entire realm of Mordor, which is just a powerful evil behemoth but not a great civilization on its own. It is kind of Europe's equivalent (which is also small compared with the rest of the world) but much smaller in scope, especially present day, with the emptied Eriador and Rohan/Gondor keeping to their spots on the map. It's only then when you come out of Eastern Mirkwood and explore all these lands other than just Dale, and moving further and further East, that you traverse through entire history of where civilizations collided, empires arose and lands were taken and then taken back, with interactions between peoples being more dynamic and varied, and same would surely happen from Eastern borders of Rhun or Southern/Eastern borders of Harad, whereas, in comparison, Gondor/Rohan/Eriador/Western realms of Rhovanion are just securely isolated by coasts or Forodwaith wastes. So I would expect to see some differences once we move into these stranger lands, in order to account for this factor and how history might have been shaped. And yeah, Numenoreans, as colonialists, weren't all rainbows, and probably some of that would apply to Gondorian/Arnorian dealings and military encounters with some peoples too. I guess Middle-earth is a bit as if the sea-fearing, ethnical Romans originally came out of Africa - or, Carthage, so a peaceful explorers/merchants/colonizers kinda matches - and only then settled in Italy, immediately expanding into much of the known Europe and eventually pretty quickly assimilating much of its people in their arm race against Mordor, kind of. And then, if you think of Harad, Rhun, beyond Mordor and further beyond the map, it would be more like coast of Africa-Arabia, Asia Minor, around Black Sea, and further into Asia, and whatever would be happening there in a bit more "dynamic" "varied" scenario if... the Arabs hadn't taken over mostly everything closer to Europe with their one religion and specific culture. Roughly, that's a good comparison I guess, for how West and East/South might differ.

PS: Actually, that comparison is great "ethnically" and "culturally", but you gotta reverse the structure a bit. So, Numenoreans would be more like Arabs, roughly. East/South/Mordor are, in fact, a bit more like our Europe with its Pope. Roughly. Far more varied entities/kingdoms/peoples with bigger empires established from time to time, but even if scattered, often united by common ties with Vatican, launching shared "religious" crusades for your evil overlord and so on (or being tricked/diplomatically convinced into them, since they weren't always just Sauron's thralls, at all times - that's why he tried with vandassari, or had Easterlings devastated with plagues, or needed to convince them he is the chief of gods so they stopped listening to Blue Wizards, and so forth). Oh, and some of the peoples in the South - Black Numeroeans, as if some of the Arabs got into cahoots with the Pope lol.

Well, I think there should certainly be a ton of variety and so forth with all the different peoples in the East and South - much agreed on the need for differences and different tales of more complexly-woven histories and so forth, and I maintain there should be at least some form of resistance against Sauron in some of the newer areas- an "and/both" approach. Surely the Blue Wizards didn't lose all of their followers to Sauron's influence? We need some contrasts. On a practical game level, we players need our Luanach and Galtrev for the basics. To me, it would be boring just to encounter a ton of hostile regions, hostile mobs, and slayer deeds - just on the practical, gaming level. Yawn. I needed my Avanc-Luth and Boar Clans to give me hope after having "GET AWAY FROM ME DUVOIDIAD!" shouted at me all day.

Right on a gaming level, you need your yin and your yang in any zone- your friendly places and unfriendly places. That's why, per where this discussion came from in the first place, Herne and Lhan Garan exist as the counterpoints to Tyrn Gorthad and so on. And that is the approach I predict the Devs will take anyway as they have for the past 15 years and counting.

So, we differ- that's all :)

Cheers! :D

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Originally Posted by Phantion

Well, I think there should certainly be a ton of variety and so forth with all the different peoples in the East and South - much agreed on the need for differences and different tales of more complexly-woven histories and so forth, and I maintain there should be at least some form of resistance against Sauron in some of the newer areas- an "and/both" approach. Surely the Blue Wizards didn't lose all of their followers to Sauron's influence? We need some contrasts. On a practical game level, we players need our Luanach and Galtrev for the basics. To me, it would be boring just to encounter a ton of hostile regions, hostile mobs, and slayer deeds - just on the practical, gaming level. Yawn. I needed my Avanc-Luth and Boar Clans to give me hope after having "GET AWAY FROM ME DUVOIDIAD!" shouted at me all day.

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Well, I didn't mean we shouldn't have any "Galtrev" places out there but what I meant is that ideally these shouldn't be as straightforward as before (or at least not main main hubs for entire enemy kingdoms, like Galtrev is for entire Dunland, plus 2 smaller villages that still hold out but same premise against same bad guys of Isengard), so not this kind of "a lone settlement of Gauls still holds out against the evil aligned Romans," now that would be a bit... cheap. In the context of these lands. That that's what they've always done for X years, not just solely because of game design, but because it pretty much made a lot of sense in these smaller lands of Eriador and enemy was always straightforward as in Sauron's aligned (or when we were in Gondor or Rohan which are bigger ones but it was all friendly settlements filled with outright friendly people "welcome welcome hero, we need help!" right at the door, no infiltration or affiliation needed), doesn't mean they can't do it a bit differently but still useful for game purposes in lands such as Rhun and Harad.

So a bit more like I said in this post, in some places:

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

But what I would like to see, for a change, is a sort of "neutral" hub (maybe with enemy districts/areas or something?). Like, you are one Westerner, gamey outfit you chose aside, it wouldn't be too far-fetched to say you keep a low profile and can easily enter one of their bigger cities to use their services. Now, this is a game of course, and they need NPCs with quests, sure. But having this "romantic good rebels" trope, hey you earnt our trust now go and slay our enemies in the camp next door, even in these distant lands, sounds like a bit too much of the same. Whereas, if you took a correct design approach, a more neutral city where you're not handheld and more like an infiltrator with your own POV is a very real concept that could happen and still have all the essential services and splendor of a hub. For some of the quest design/dangers, albeit in limited scope, Dale/Lake-town comes to mind (with its shady alleys and crime networks), the "Dunlending district" of Western Rohan or perhaps that Rhun/Harad "town" of Mordor (though this one was more like a standard enemy camp except with quests but it had interesting mechanics).

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You can have 1 Galtrev someplace but maybe not even as a main main hub of entire Rhun and for the main hub you can actually have a more impressive settlement of Rhun that's pretty "neutral" and still you would find decent NPCs to assist (regular people) or investigate things in general as a sneaky hero that you are (not just being handheld and outright given a command), but it would have more dangerous areas or districts under the control of a problematic, ruling bad guys (or even of different castes of enemies, groups or whatever, like I brought up that example of Laketown and its crime network - so any such criminal group would be an enemy of everyone but it doesn't mean you would be pals with local guards, for example). I don't know, think of something like running around in old Assassin's Creed games, like Revelation. Spaces where it's generally safe to be, you're just another cloaked traveler amongst many, but there are certain events, changes or areas where it gets more dangerous because as a supposed "traveler" you're just not supposed to be there. Basically, with this mindset, you can have this methodology a bit more spread out and make things appear actually globally alive, with lots of places and cities to visit (but entrance to things like main halls and ruler chambers barred in many of these, in contrast to Rohan and Gondor, or maybe received with indifference or be used for some purpose by someone, rather than outright invited by a ruler to do quests for them) plus then you would also have enemy parts of such cities, where you're not supposed to be, because you just get treated as a spy to be killed (or a fool or thief who tries to enter a noble's home or something ;P), and that allows us to get insight into many of these places (some of which in conflict with one another perhaps) while at the same time not being treated like we're one of them who is clearly aligned with any specific "good" faction and then ending up with this typical separation into "settlement!" and "evil mob camp or bad settlement!" This kind of separation works when it's simple - their armies attack under Sauron, side by side with orcs, they're your enemy, simple. But not once you get into their lands and now that Sauron is gone, so evil is not always as obvious, and sometimes it may be just internal affairs evil and cultural evil (they have slavery) rather than outright "Sauron remnants" evil to be viewed as an outside force/camp to deal with at the camp X (though they can easily have some military camps and facilities too, as lone garrisons across countryside, like the newer AC games do).

Seriously, that kind of clear-cut treatment (Galtrev surrounded by enemy camps and settlements) would have been cheap during exploration of these stranger lands with so much variety and history. Think of Aragorn or Gandalf when they travelled under strange stars. They wouldn't utterly avoid city of a faction X with the idea that they would be attacked on sight for some reason and yet be welcome with open arms in cities completely held by some lovely romantic rebels, one rebel hub for each major province of a country (a bit silly picture, no?). They would just blend in with the crowd and investigate things everywhere, but if they wanted access to palaces, nobles, armories or kings, well that's where troubles happen. Or, if a certain capital of a region is like under outright harsh occupation of a very very cruel ruler who invited some Sauron remnants or dark cults to terrorize the streets, it's the city that might be a go-to spot for mob killings and questing, but friendly NPCs you would find were actually driven out of the city/in hiding, so there is also a possibility for reverse mechanics sometimes, for some cities.

PS: Well, ok, but maybe think of Harad with these specific examples in mind, because for Rhun... well, I have no idea how this "devastation" might influence things socially and how it may/may not affect such possibilities in design/storytelling.



Oh, and I agree, but remember we have no idea how Blue Wizards themselves are - it's possible they're a bit more neutral themselves or somehow corrupted even, in the sense that maybe they're not really fans of the West, even if they were also not fans of Sauron. Blue Caste specifically, which is aligned to one of the wizards - their temporary allegiance to Mordor aside - appear really proud and imperialistic even. I think the Easterling who crossed the Variag Jarl and his squad (from Ithilien) had ties to Blue Caste as well and that one was really just like "you Variags are just pathetic dogs who should be thankful for scraps and insignificant ants under our might" before he died. Who knows, maybe the two wizards are even at odds, taking into account the separation into Blue and Violet groups of Easterlings (who, ironically, united under Sauron?). Well, it's all very interesting!

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Originally Posted by Hierona

Well, it is semi announced that maybe there will be a new quest zone around Angmar in 2023, and that we will not go to Rhûn or Harad yet. My guess would be it will be the area between Câr Bronach and Angmar and going more to the north. Might be interesting to see regular Angmarim cities and Hobgoblin breeding grounds and towns. Maybe see some of the Eldgang return in the west of the zone.

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Huh? What? Where was this said???!!

And seperately to Phantion: In both the latest "The Collected Notes/Letters/Unfinished Bits of Writing by Tolkien" books; "Nature of Middle-Earth" and "The Fall of Numenor;" Tolkien basically says that the "abandoned" lands aren't empty or at least not for long. They just aren't or weren't important to the narrative or the people that drew the maps. So basically what you said.

guess Orion said it in that discord server?

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Originally Posted by miriadel

guess Orion said it in that discord server?

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Yes, though he didn't exactly "said" much. Basically, someone made a fun table (like from Excel) with very specific points of what can be revealed and Orion said "maybe" to a number that said "content around Angmar in 2023" and "no to all" to a set of numbers that had "Rhun and Harad get mentioned" and "Southern Gondor" in it.

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Originally Posted by Feral_Yoda

And seperately to Phantion: In both the latest "The Collected Notes/Letters/Unfinished Bits of Writing by Tolkien" books; "Nature of Middle-Earth" and "The Fall of Numenor;" Tolkien basically says that the "abandoned" lands aren't empty or at least not for long. They just aren't or weren't important to the narrative or the people that drew the maps. So basically what you said.

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Gandlaf says, at the end of Return of the King, that with the Greenway's reopening the wastes and deserted lands of Minhiriath will eventually no longer be so. But thats 4th era stuff.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Yes, though he didn't exactly "said" much. Basically, someone made a fun table (like from Excel) with very specific points of what can be revealed and Orion said "maybe" to a number that said "content around Angmar in 2023" and "no to all" to a set of numbers that had "Rhun and Harad get mentioned" and "Southern Gondor" in it.

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sigh.... this is the kind of interaction that would be great in a thread like this. At least there's people who can rely the info from there to here

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Yes, though he didn't exactly "said" much. Basically, someone made a fun table (like from Excel) with very specific points of what can be revealed and Orion said "maybe" to a number that said "content around Angmar in 2023" and "no to all" to a set of numbers that had "Rhun and Harad get mentioned" and "Southern Gondor" in it.

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Well if it isn't rhun or Harard, and with the salt water tease, this really limits it to Nurn, or Anfalas. The Iron Pass isn't really near the ice bay.

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

Well if it isn't rhun or Harard, and with the salt water tease, this really limits it to Nurn, or Anfalas. The Iron Pass isn't really near the ice bay.

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But around Angmar could also mean between Forochel and Angmar, or north of that to Forodwaith, which both gets really close to the water.

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

Well if it isn't rhun or Harard, and with the salt water tease, this really limits it to Nurn, or Anfalas. The Iron Pass isn't really near the ice bay.

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Yeah but that Angmar stuff, whatever that is, doesn't need to be Iron Pass though. For all we know, the Iron Pass may be left as is - maybe there is really nothing there, just a pass, like Caradhras, and somehow they took that giant stone all the way to as-of-yet unexplored corners of Angmar, who knows. West Angmar - that was supposed to be in the game waaay back and appear more snowy - would be much closer to Forochel and also bridge that gap between the two.

That thing with the missing stone is funny though. Part of me wonders how they even managed to... secretly remove it from the tower... so Brathar didn't even notice... and I sure hope it wasn't a teleportation spell that Asachal did, because seriously, that wouldn't fit within the world I guess. We had some OP teleportation, like with Mardrambor, or Karazgar turning into a smoke of rust, but okay, it's just a powerful man doing his tricks and it's probably a short distance thing, teleporting a giant stone however...... ehhh, no please

Hmm, if they're "maybe" doing something around Angmar... and it turns out to be that specific something between Forochel and Angmar... Since it's nearby and they would need to work with some of that border terrain anyway, would be cool if Scenario managed to do something about Arthedain matter of North Downs and what's kinda glaringly missing now, from world design/lore perspective. What me and Phantion suggested were cosmetic touches but... idk, if they were actually doing a fine update around the place, who knows, maybe they could make these suggestions of ours actually traversable and feeding into that Western Angmar/Forochel content through a secret pass or something. Like, maybe even a traversable new section of Fornost to serve as actual, believable representation of the seat of kings? :O

I am convinced that "smell of sea water" refers to the Grey Havens. They will release Southfarthing first, tying Cardolan and the Shire together without a portal, opening the west bank of the Brandywine south of the Marish and giving us a new travel portal from Southfarthing "through" Grey Havens to Ered Luin. Then, later in the year, we get Grey Havens where we get the smell of the sea, and connecting up to Falathlorn Homesteads and Celondim. This will include the Far Downs and the Tower Hills, and give us new borders to southern Ered Luin and west toward Lindon. In that way, they have given us a whole "line" of regions south of the ones from the original game (Ered Luin to Trollshaws).

After Grey Havens comes a Rhudaur mini-expansion, connecting Lone-lands, and North Downs with Agmar. Incorporating a terrain map Ettenmoors and connecting it through Ettendales to the Trollshaws could also come in the same mini-expansion.

PS: I love Eriador and I want it to keep growing :P

We have no immediate plans for the Grey Havens. There's a kind of finality that area represents in the minds of many (much in the same way that dropping the ring had) - and we've got a lot of other places in mind before we bring our ongoing narrative to Mithlond.

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Originally Posted by Scenario

We have no immediate plans for the Grey Havens. There's a kind of finality that area represents in the minds of many (much in the same way that dropping the ring had)

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Well, but the game didn't end with dropping the ring, one might say it's merely just began! So not really that bad :D

Ultimately, no matter how far the narrative takes us (in LOTR's time), there are still so many places to explore...

In my mind, the Grey Havens have been there for milennia and the leave-takings that happen there as the Fourth Age starts are neither the beginning nor the end for that place as a place. We can easily be led in there to explore beforehand, and let our characters stay around for quite some time later.

But I see my assumption then is incorrect and you are going to keep us guessing, o designer of the world.

Thanks, by the way, for Swanfleet and Cardolan. I really enjoyed the maps and how you've tied them in to all those places in the old maps - The Brandywine, Barrow-downs/Old Forst, Andrath, around the Homesteads, the ruins in southern Lone-lands, Harloeg, the Angle, Eregion, the Old South Road and Mournshaws. It makes the world feel much more connected.

I'm a Guild Wars 2 player too - great game, but one of my biggest gripes is how the zones are all completely isolated/instanced from each other and how the barriers are even visible on the world map like a giant checker board. Not so LotRO where you can trot from Thorin's Gate to the Fords of Isen (and now on more roads than one) without a single barrier between them. That is pure magic for an open world explorer like me.

During a casual stroll live stream it was stated the next area is no where near cardolan and swanfleet so that ruled out the Grey Havens in my opinion and seems correct as stated above.

My guess has been either Sea of Rhun or Southern Gondor/Harad next, given the stable master's map was extended far to the south hinting where we could go into the future, given Dwarf epic story is done, the story can go where ever next.

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Originally Posted by Scenario

We have no immediate plans for the Grey Havens. There's a kind of finality that area represents in the minds of many (much in the same way that dropping the ring had) - and we've got a lot of other places in mind before we bring our ongoing narrative to Mithlond.

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Well, and don't forget: you could conceivably build-out both Forlindon and Harlindon without even touching the Grey Havens, which is a considerable distance inland and probably not very far from Celondim at all. You could have it where you fill-in the gap north of Ered Luin, south of Forochel, west of Evendim, and cross into Northern Ered Luin and complete the coast from Kuru-Lehri / Zigilgund and Arvedui areas all the way down to at least midway across the Gulf of Lhun. Mithlond need not even be visible.

Forlindon and Harlindon are what remains of the lost subcontinent of Beleriand - so they're pretty important to the Elves - and also the seat of Gil-galad's Kingdom. You could have Forlond and Harlond as hubs, include the remnants of Himling / Himring while giving subtle lore-hints to its past history without treading into troubled legal territory, etc.

They are pretty much CardoSwan sized chunks of land in themselves; similarly, one could complete the course of the Brandywine down from Sarn Ford to the Sea and then build out Harlindon / Southern Ered Luin from there.

There's more than 1 way to do it that doesn't even touch the ending of LOTR while giving Elf / High Elf mavens some content they could have fun with.

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And even then, I agree with TesalionLortus that everyone was crying "wolf" about the ending of all LOTRO when the game reached Mordor - and years, years later, we're still here :D

Technically, if we really want to consider the Lore, the world of Middle-earth doesn't really "end" till Sam sails west "according to tradition" and Celeborn, last of the High Elves, sets sail and brings a full end to the Elven Arc while the remaining Wood-Elves, Avari, etc., all fade into the caves and hills - and that happens like nearly a couple hundred years later into the Fourth Age.

I get it. Everyone's nervous we'd lose players just hanging-in to see Frodo off to the West; but . . . I don't know. I almost wonder if it would be worth running polls of sorts across LOTRO social media to get some real statistics on what players actually think about the ending? It seems to me there's an awful lot of assuming going on here.

But anyways, please keep an open mind on Forlindon / Harlindon- the Gulf of Lune is extremely long horizontally from west to east when comparing Tolkien's map-scale to LOTRO's. There could also be new paths connecting with current Ered Luin to other parts, like behind Sarnur and through a new pass not far from the homesteads in Thorin's Gate.

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There's something I'd like to learn more about though, perhaps from Scenario and/or MoL. And that's: It was wonderful and awesome to get some more "Tales of Yore" experiences in Caras Gelebren. But I wonder: Why wasn't the ancient battle between Sauron and Gil-galad in Ruddymore referenced? It's curious to me! I'd guess it was about time and development, practical reasons. But still, I'm very curious!

I mean . . . that was the site of the culmination of the War of the Elves and Sauron - and Sauron and his personal guard were driven out of Eriador forever around Tharbad. I certainly think that . . . the red-stone in Cardolan could have a mythic resonance there: that it reminds us, visually, of all the bloodshed on those grounds by High Elves and Numenoreans and so forth as they defeated Sauron, fair and square, on the battlefield - while - Sauron was wielding the One Ring. Yet, not even a single quest-text talks about "Legends tell us of a great Elven King and ancient battle where a terrible Dark Lord rose, and they fought on these grounds" - not even the Dunedain refer to it. I'm just curious! That's all! :D

Cheers! :D

As for a mini-zone expansion like Wildwood the space to the west and south-west of the Ered Luin map would be nice. That zone is so small, especially the dwarven half.

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Originally Posted by Phantion

Technically, if we really want to consider the Lore, the world of Middle-earth doesn't really "end" till Sam sails west "according to tradition" and Celeborn, last of the High Elves, sets sail and brings a full end to the Elven Arc while the remaining Wood-Elves, Avari, etc., all fade into the caves and hills - and that happens like nearly a couple hundred years later into the Fourth Age.

I get it. Everyone's nervous we'd lose players just hanging-in to see Frodo off to the West; but . . . I don't know. I almost wonder if it would be worth running polls of sorts across LOTRO social media to get some real statistics on what players actually think about the ending? It seems to me there's an awful lot of assuming going on here.

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Well, it's almost like voodoo. :D Maybe there was a terrible spell cast on matters of the Scouring and Grey Havens that would bring about the end of LOTRO as we know it and cut off a huge stream of revenue, just by the sheer energy of dark magic. Because when it comes to players literally no one vocal thinks that the game should actually end/be nearing end when it reaches a specific place, that it is somehow a terrible portent and they will stop playing once it does reach this place. Quite the contrary, players are often excited and can't wait for the Scouring or Lindon, and the only players who are saying any of these places are a "bad sign" for the game are the ones who convinced themselves SSG specifically wants these places to be the End but this is not the case, from what we've been told by MoL, in this very thread. But well, this is kind of the side effect that was created amongst some long-standing players, simply because of the delay. The Scouring in particular has been built up and hinted so extensively over the years that it's almost a recurring joke at this point how long it takes :D What happened in Rhun? Bah! When the Scouring?! Frodo has not even moved yet. I mean, Gimli literally missed a reclamation of his sacred home of the dwarves, like he wasn't even aware what his father was up to and what dangers he faced, and I don't like it and I wonder what's his excuse is gonna be even

So many people leave game in Mordor after ring/Nazguls/Sauron gone, it's right idea not to rush with Grey Havens

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Originally Posted by Elmagor

So many people leave game in Mordor after ring/Nazguls/Sauron gone, it's right idea not to rush with Grey Havens

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Do they really though and specifically because of that? (or not something else like... hmm, the insanely ever-increasing lvl cap maybe, how the world exploration/levelling are structured coupled with lack of long-term commitment/burn out on their part? note that Mordor is where, ideally and symbolically, the level up process as we know it and the amount of gatekeeping that it creates should have stopped)

I don't think literally holding your players hostage ever a certain book events (that are being awaited by players for a long time now) is anywhere near healthy. The game needs to be attractive for all kinds of players to stay relevant in their mind, no matter what stories it's telling, not just stay relevant because they haven't done that Scouring and Havens yet

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Originally Posted by Scenario

We have no immediate plans for the Grey Havens. There's a kind of finality that area represents in the minds of many (much in the same way that dropping the ring had) - and we've got a lot of other places in mind before we bring our ongoing narrative to Mithlond.

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If you were more open minded you would had made Grey Havens for a Premium High elves starting zone.