So Orion.. Wardens?

Since I was bored at work, I figured I'd check the upcoming changes to wardens. YES, that bored, since I don't even have one. Here's what I see in this forum though:

1. Group of people who seem to want to support wardens until the end of time. People who are just too proud to admit that wardens cannot actually tank end-game content like guardians, whether its aggro copy/surviving/whatever. You all make me laugh. Just because you CAN tank with some class doesn't mean you should.

2. Group of people who realize wardens can't stand the heat and are proposing some good changes.

3. Wadens who are 65 and don't know what conviction is yet.


Like I said, I don't care what happens to wardens, but there is a reason why successful raiding kins don't use wardens over guardians to tank important stuff. Leave the trash mobs to wardens....

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Originally Posted by Valkyrielady

Since I was bored at work, I figured I'd check the upcoming changes to wardens. YES, that bored, since I don't even have one. Here's what I see in this forum though:

1. Group of people who seem to want to support wardens until the end of time. People who are just too proud to admit that wardens cannot actually tank end-game content like guardians, whether its aggro copy/surviving/whatever. You all make me laugh. Just because you CAN tank with some class doesn't mean you should.

2. Group of people who realize wardens can't stand the heat and are proposing some good changes.

3. Wadens who are 65 and don't know what conviction is yet.


Like I said, I don't care what happens to wardens, but there is a reason why successful raiding kins don't use wardens over guardians to tank important stuff. Leave the trash mobs to wardens....

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I hate feeding the trolls, but you must have skipped over the posts from members of the the Inklings who are NOT using guards to MT.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrielady

Just because you CAN tank with some class doesn't mean you should.

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Quite true, but despite your implied meaning, Wardens ARE tanks -- its in the freaking class description!

Go back to creep land and whine about how OP the freeps are.

Actually i think some of wardens issues could be easily solved by buffing other classes. For example, how about a burglar skill that allows him to switch his threat with that of another person in fellowship? Or a trick that forces a target to attack the one with the lowest threat. Could also be used by a burglar to safe a healer, offtank for a while or just messing around.

I intentionally picked the burglar because i would like to see more of them btw. But really there are tons of things that could be done once we agree that its the FS lead by a warden tank that needs help, and not just the warden. If the devs don't want to give a warden the ability to recover threat after dieing, then give other people the ability to make the warden recover.

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Originally Posted by rocketeer8015

Actually i think some of wardens issues could be easily solved by buffing other classes. For example, how about a burglar skill that allows him to switch his threat with that of another person in fellowship?

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Burgs have a skill called Provoke, that increases the threat a foe feels for that foe's target. So they can already do this, kinda/sorta. It's on a very short timer; 5 seconds. Burgs can essentially help other people gain or lose aggro.

Champs have their own ways of doing this, as well.

However, what other classes can or cannot do really doesn't address what Wardens can or cannot do. The solution to our lack of tools in swapping aggro is NOT to give more tools to other classes.

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Originally Posted by Aloro

Burgs have a skill called Provoke, that increases the threat a foe feels for that foe's target. So they can already do this, kinda/sorta. It's on a very short timer; 5 seconds. Burgs can essentially help other people gain or lose aggro.

Champs have their own ways of doing this, as well.

However, what other classes can or cannot do really doesn't address what Wardens can or cannot do. The solution to our lack of tools in swapping aggro is NOT to give more tools to other classes.

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100% agreed. The whole complaint right now is that Wardens need a Guardian to do aggro-swaps via Threat stance and Engage. A Guardian just needs someone else to swap to, and the class doesn't matter. We don't want to make Wardens reliant on having a Burg in the group, we want to make them self-reliant.

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Originally Posted by Aloro

Burgs have a skill called Provoke, that increases the threat a foe feels for that foe's target. So they can already do this, kinda/sorta. It's on a very short timer; 5 seconds. Burgs can essentially help other people gain or lose aggro.

Champs have their own ways of doing this, as well.

However, what other classes can or cannot do really doesn't address what Wardens can or cannot do. The solution to our lack of tools in swapping aggro is NOT to give more tools to other classes.

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Provoke is a straightup +threat, it will do exactly nothing for a recently revived warden trying to get back into a fight where his fellows have a threatlead in the 10 thousands. And yes, champs have a extremely effective way to regain aggro, doesn't help us though.

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Originally Posted by ANewMachine

100% agreed. The whole complaint right now is that Wardens need a Guardian to do aggro-swaps via Threat stance and Engage. A Guardian just needs someone else to swap to, and the class doesn't matter. We don't want to make Wardens reliant on having a Burg in the group, we want to make them self-reliant.

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I dare guess wardens being so self-reliant already is one of the reasons the devs are hesitant about making us even more so ...

Anyway, there is no point in asking for things we won't get. And the next best thing to needing a guardian for threatswap would be needing a guardian or burglar or LM or captain .... See where im going?

If its ok for this group to recover from tank death and have easy time swapping bosses

Guardian
Minstrel
Captain
Champion
Burglar
Hunter

Then its obviously also fine for this group:

Warden
Minstrel
Captain
Champion
Burglar
Hunter

However if its not fine for a Warden to be able to do it on his own ... There are not a lot of options left that exclude relying on others.

But yeah sure, if you can just convince Orion to give us the tools we need straightup im all game.

Put it this way: say you're a Burglar main, and you're told your new skill in the update... fixes Warden's aggro issues.

How happy will you be on a scale of 1-10?

Confirmed by Orion in another thread:

The goal is to make Champions tank as well as Guardians.

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Originally Posted by Orion

Our goal is not to make the Champion the only tank that people choose. Our goal is to make the tank a viable option at tank, just like the Guardian and the Warden. Options are not bad. Good tanks, be they guardians, wardens or champions are going to be desired. It may not make you feel better, not sure, but our goals are not to make any one preferable over any other.

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(emphasis added)

Thus, Champions (who are a top DPS class as their primary role) will also be on par with the top tanking class, as their secondary role.

Now, obviously this philosophy implies that Wardens are *supposed* to be as good as Guardians (and Champs) too. But he seems to suggest that Wardens are already there, and Orion's comments in *this* thread (which have the appearance of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic...) seem totally oblivious to the problems just about everyone else recognizes we have now.

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Originally Posted by duamarth

Correct me if I am wrong (I've only done aggro swapping, e.g. durin's bane and poison wing, with a warden-guard), but the real difficulty comes with warden-warden, where aggro swapping (beyond 5sec DC, which can be disastrous in poison wing) requires both wardens being close in threat levels (which can get out of balance if one warden does much more dps, or one spams PB too much, or if one warden's group builds more threat for conviction to transfer, etc.). Has anyone done any of the new boss fights with a warden-warden combo? I'd like to hear how it went. But on the main topic, yes, this is a game mechanism where wardens could use a little more help, though not a skill that would remove any challenge from such fights.

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We've tank swapped between two wardens on Poison boss just fine with no champ help. Just takes a try or two to coordinate how much threat you are generating. After that, its smooth as she goes. The warden who needs to get threat goes Reckless and spams PB. The warden who has aggro just heals himself and auto attacks in conservation. Works pretty well.

That being said, Poison boss is not a *precise* aggro swap fight. Durin's Bane with two wardens would be best achieved by having one warden Force Taunt with Defiant Challenge every 25-30 seconds. That way the force taunt warden would get the -inc healing, +inc damage, inability to B/P/E debuff from Durin's Bane the whole time, and the warden that was tanking would just sit there and tank with no debuff other than the 5 second force taunt. Problem is, a champ or captain can do this better than the warden can already.

Ideas for ways to improve warden threat management:

Gambits for +15% or -15% perceived threat (20-30s duration)
Stace for +15% or -15% perceived threat (Conservation / Determination)
Defiant Challenge becomes a 10 second force taunt with Fist Capstone (chain-able if necessary)

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Originally Posted by LagunaD

Confirmed by Orion in another thread:

The goal is to make Champions tank as well as Guardians.


(emphasis added)

Thus, Champions (who are a top DPS class as their primary role) will also be on par with the top tanking class, as their secondary role.

Now, obviously this philosophy implies that Wardens are *supposed* to be as good as Guardians (and Champs) too. But he seems to suggest that Wardens are already there, and Orion's comments in *this* thread (which have the appearance of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic...) seem totally oblivious to the problems just about everyone else recognizes we have now.

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Wondered if you'd pop in on this one. I like your titanic allegory.

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Originally Posted by rocketeer8015

Provoke is a straightup +threat, it will do exactly nothing for a recently revived warden trying to get back into a fight where his fellows have a threatlead in the 10 thousands. And yes, champs have a extremely effective way to regain aggro, doesn't help us though.

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For the record, Provoke does help a newly rezzed Warden to gain aggro. That's precisely what it does. I don't know why you're focusing only on a newly rezzed Warden, but ok. It's a weak tool in that regard but it's better than nothing.

Champs have a skill called "Ebbing Ire" that allows them to dump 25% of their own threat onto someone else, e.g. a Warden. That, too, would help with your scenario of a newly rezzed Warden trying to regain aggro. Actually, it can help a lot.

I still want Wardens to have their own tools though and not to rely on others for basic functionality.

LotRO is not designed for specific group compositions, nor should it be. Requiring that specific other classes be present, for one class to fulfill its primary (and indeed only) role makes no sense.

Guardians don't need Burgs around, for those Guards to do their own jobs. Why should Wardens need Burgs around to do our jobs? Sure, other classes can help in a lot of ways, but no class should be gimped without a specific selection of other classes helping fill in for their weak spots. That doesn't sound like fun to me at all.

Once again... It seems ridiculous that a champ will now be the best at AoE DPS and also be able to tank as well as a guardian, when a warden can't do either (at least not as easily). Turbine needs to get their priorities straight.... Or at least stop calling warden a "premium" class. Too harsh, maybe. But certainly quite true.

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Originally Posted by Aloro

For the record, Provoke does help a newly rezzed Warden to gain aggro. That's precisely what it does.

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Actually, it is precisely what it does not do. Povoke adds aggro to the mobs target. In order for Provoke to help a rezzed warden, he'd have to cast a DC in order to force aggro, and then the burg would hit Provoke while the mob was on the warden.

This would be a net loss of aggro over spamming PBs or Conviction. The Warden would regain aggro slower if he tried to allow the burg to use Provoke.

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Originally Posted by Jeger_Wulf

Actually, it is precisely what it does not do.

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Erm, no.

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Povoke adds aggro to the mobs target. In order for Provoke to help a rezzed warden, he'd have to cast a DC in order to force aggro, and then the burg would hit Provoke while the mob was on the warden.

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Assuming the Warden in question has DC slotted, that would work fine, yes. To be fair though many Wardens don't slot DC. For those who do, you've just shown exactly how to use Provoke to help a Warden get aggro. And you've done that while claiming that Provoke can't be used to help a Warden get aggro. :D

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This would be a net loss of aggro over spamming PBs or Conviction. The Warden would regain aggro slower if he tried to allow the burg to use Provoke.

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In this very specific and oddly limited situation, presumably the Warden is trying to pull aggro for a reason, e.g. the Burg will die if stuff isn't pulled off him. "DC -> Provoke -> Conviction -> build threat normally" might very well save that Burg's life, in this very specific and oddly limited situation you keep bringing up. So, yes, Provoke can help a bit there. It's, as I've repeatedly said, a weak tool, but better than nothing. Sure, you can poke holes in it. Yes, it's not foolproof. Sure, you can imagine a hypothetical scenario where it won't work well. But you can also pretty easily imagine a number of hypothetical scenarios where it'll be helpful.

Again, I don't like the idea of depending on other classes for this stuff anyhow.

All I was saying is that those tools already exist, in the hands of other classes. Adding more such tools to other classes won't address the underlying issue here at all.

Wow, stop reading the forums for a bit and look how much catching up I have to do.

First:

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Originally Posted by lf2536

with shield capstone you can easily pulse at 160 a pulse, multiply that by 6 fellowship members and multiply that by number of pulses, with capstone that's 6 pulses and the initial pulse so that's 7. thus: 160*6*7=6720 morale healed. that's nothing to turn your nose at.

this also make a massive difference to threat generated. iirc healing threat is equal to half that of DPS, so with a quick division Conviction is worth 3360 damage points on each active mob. assuming most trash fights have 3-4 mobs active that's worth approx 10080 damage points (assuming 3 mobs) every 18 seconds, that's alot of threat generated.

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I think some of the misconceptions here have been addressed, but also wanted to point out that if a mob is not actively targeting someone (even if that someone is on that mobs agro list), healing them generates exactly 0 threat. I have tested this extensively on my RK and it is one of the ways I tier up safely when I need to tier up but don't need/want to generate any agro yet.

Second - One thing I would like to see changed/modified is "threat" from a level based amount to a weapon based amount. Essentially what they are doing right now is saying everytime we had higher DPS weapons at current level cap, tanks jobs will become tougher. I don't want agro to be easy ... but at the same time, do not improve DPS classes ability to DPS via gear alone without giving us a means of doing the same.

And thanks Geof for pointing out the amount of conviction heals we generate. Been preaching this for some time and Combat Analysis is a wonderful tool to help show how much we actually heal. While I would not advocate going for an outgoing healing build (tried this, was not a signicant enough difference for what we give up imho ... unless we were strictly going for heals and nothing else), in wings like Poison, Fear, Ivar where there is a significant amount of group wide damage, we rock. My healers usually tell me it is easier to heal when I am there than when I am not but then, maybe they are just being nice since I lead the raids :D

Thanks for your attention and here is to hoping we get a good meaningful update that does not require us to completely relearn our toons .... again.

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Originally Posted by SkateDr

And thanks Geof for pointing out the amount of conviction heals we generate. Been preaching this for some time and Combat Analysis is a wonderful tool to help show how much we actually heal. While I would not advocate going for an outgoing healing build (tried this, was not a signicant enough difference for what we give up imho ... unless we were strictly going for heals and nothing else), in wings like Poison, Fear, Ivar where there is a significant amount of group wide damage, we rock. My healers usually tell me it is easier to heal when I am there than when I am not but then, maybe they are just being nice since I lead the raids :D

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THIS. Our healers love our MT Pyr because of his hots and conviction. I'm using his name instead of my warden because Pyr is our best warden. Tanking is a lot of experience, so while my kin has great guards, our wardens have been working together longer. We can do raids with all 3, our champs easily hold their own as tanks.

I don't want wardens to be the ONLY tank, I don't want champs or guards to be it either. I love how much fun range tanking is on Nanni, I love swap tanking with her be it with a guard or another warden (I haven't done it much with a champ).

As was said previously, 2 wardens can work together to match aggro closely and it will work. Doesn't anyone remember learning how to do Rung and Blagh in DN? Very similar mechanic there of trying to match aggro. Its been around for a long time in this game.

Tanking adjustments should focus on specializing through the 3 tank classes. The Devs need to agree on who specializes in what and then focus the changes there.

If anyone wants to see raid MT wardens in action, come onto Meneldor and look up The Inklings. We have some tactics no one else on our server uses :)

Tanking aside, I like the idea that the gambits become more equally useful. I would love an incentive to use Boar's Rush more often. What about making shield piercer more effective? I like the tools we have now, I don't really want any new skills, I think we need refinement.

If champs are becoming a tanking class, a fair trade off ,imo, would be wardens should get better dps traited spear. My understanding is that a guard traited Keen Blade can dps fairly well. Traiting spear you would nerf the threat you can do and HoTs and reduce power consumption.(Can't use Darkness before Dawn when not losing heath). You don't need to make them the most desirable dps class in the game, you can make dps there secondary. I for one would love this.

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Originally Posted by artax33

Traiting spear you would nerf the threat you can do ...

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Huh? People trait spear to increase their Threat, not decrease it. Its one of the reasons fist line is in such a bind, spear does a better job building threat.

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Originally Posted by rocketeer8015

Huh? People trait spear to increase their Threat, not decrease it. Its one of the reasons fist line is in such a bind, spear does a better job building threat.

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QFT. I swear I only do 350-400 DPS unbuffed, but mobs usually turn and face me as though my attacks have additional threat on them. I almost never get to use Wages of Fear. :(

Wardens are imho the most advanced class in lotro to play and master. And truth be told, i think that anyone who is not a Warden main could not really know what Wardens do need or don't need. Its easy to look at the numbers of what a hunter or champ can do and see where things are weaker or stronger But because This class is easily one of the most advanced classes to play of any mmo in aware of, i think our dev's in charge of the class [past and present] really don't know what to do with us.

Yes, anyone can look and say this gambit does this and this gambit does that but what about the time taken to build them, What if your in a 6 man w/o a LM and are stunned at the start of a fight or disarmed/silenced while your pots on CD or, the mini gets a lag spike and you go down, etc? The gambit system is fun to learn and use but comes with handicaps due the fact that a large portion of the class's skills are gated behind a set amount of gambit builders and we cant just queue up the next gambit while waiting for the one before to execute. These things also make the class exiting and fun to play but my point here is that 'on paper' and 'in practice' are two very different things thanks to general game play situations and class mechanics.

Its one reason i dislike puging raids. I hate when someone who has no idea how warden class mechanics work say's "run in and pop Conviction then start kiting" Um...it don't work that way. I need more then a Conviction at the start of a fight off to hold aggro. I get this same feeling when Class revisions roll around. I know that just because "they" create the skills, add and subtract from aspects of the class or change traits does not mean "they" know what works, what does not work or what is practical to use.

Take the whole "Addition of effects that will allow for some Gambits to replace themselves when they are used. All Gambit lines would benefit from this, the different stances would determine which gambit is altered." If this turns out to be a % of a chance type of thing and all of the sudden i get two builders i do not want i'd have to use recovery, Meaning more power and time blown in order get the gambit i want to build built. The only reason this Idea would even float onto the table is to help speed up the building of gambits in order for us to not have to slot masteries...why not just make masteries trainable then?...Even though personally, having to trait masteries is not that big of a deal to me but it's this kind of thing that gets under my skin.

The champ changes [in comparison] look sweet: Glory champ tank's more in line with Champ playstyle. Great Idea... more competition on the MT front but still sweet idea to encourage the use of glory and bring champ mentality into a tanking role. Fervour will generate less threat...ok, thats sort of good. Boy, it sure looks like champs could have every little to complain about after RoI. They can still tank in Fervour, Just means they have to put out even more dps! And, if they want to MT big stuff and still swing a big stick that hits big numbers thats cool too.

Wardens cant even get a piratical recovery from defeat skill, three class traits unlocked or a precise threat management tool. But, We can have some "Addition of effects" that may cause mis-built gambits and/or frustrating delays to the next gambit intended to be built.

I love this game but, i really would like a Warden to make changes to Warden not someone who either is a "i play all the classes" person or a person who plays from the perspective of say a Hunter, Champ or Mini. We are all on a bus, we all want to go somewhere but the bus driver just knows how to drive the bus not how to get us where we want to go.

Its not what Orion said was a bunch of bad things for us Wardens Just things that are either in the wrong direction or baby steps in the right direction.

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Originally Posted by disappearingone

Take the whole "Addition of effects that will allow for some Gambits to replace themselves when they are used. All Gambit lines would benefit from this, the different stances would determine which gambit is altered." If this turns out to be a % of a chance type of thing and all of the sudden i get two builders i do not want i'd have to use recovery, Meaning more power and time blown in order get the gambit i want to build built.

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I share this concern. Well said.

The idea of these additional effects is intriguing, certainly, but it seems to have a lot of potential to disrupt me as much as it helps me. I absolutely do not want a random chance of some gambit chain builders showing up in my bar. I don't want to have to stop and double check every time I perform a gambit to see what unwanted stuff I'm saddled with that I have to clear before I carry on with my business. If it's something that's controllable and predictable, ok, I'm interested. :)

Wardens can't get a decent update. Why? Mini's icon set hasnt been changed this year, so I bet thats on the high priory list. Second, hunters only get 2 updates in the last.. two updates.
I have no idea how they decide what class should get an update now, and what class can deal without one.
Some classes have waited 3 years for an update (cappys for IDoME for example) and still nothing. Guess not many devs play them.

I know, I'm mean.

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Originally Posted by HolyGigi

Wardens can't get a decent update. Why? Mini's icon set hasnt been changed this year, so I bet thats on the high priory list. Second, hunters only get 2 updates in the last.. two updates.
I have no idea how they decide what class should get an update now, and what class can deal without one.
Some classes have waited 3 years for an update (cappys for IDoME for example) and still nothing. Guess not many devs play them.

I know, I'm mean.

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Er? Cappys got an update with F2P, and it was largely considered fairly successful. No, IDOME wasn't addressed, but they got a major class revision that filled in gaps and made them sometimes consider traiting out of HoH.

I share your pessimism about priorities, though.

In all honesty ... when i took a look at the tooltip of NS the first time ... yes i was real thoughtfully like about what the person designing this skill had in mind when doing so.

I mean the mere idea that any kind of skill would be worth shutting down our hots and masteries ... Im just not sure what to think about that. I think they have a rather skewed view about the importance of our masteries... Trying to tank any harder instance(and you wouldn't die in a easy one in the first place) without masteries is just ... a really novel idea.

Also im a bit worried that when we get around to our update it will filled with the same kind of thinking that created NS, i.e. something i just can't follow.

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Originally Posted by rocketeer8015

In all honesty ... when i took a look at the tooltip of NS the first time ... yes i was real thoughtfully like about what the person designing this skill had in mind when doing so.

I mean the mere idea that any kind of skill would be worth shutting down our hots and masteries ... Im just not sure what to think about that. I think they have a rather skewed view about the importance of our masteries... Trying to tank any harder instance(and you wouldn't die in a easy one in the first place) without masteries is just ... a really novel idea.

Also im a bit worried that when we get around to our update it will filled with the same kind of thinking that created NS, i.e. something i just can't follow.

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This is exactly why i was happy when i found out orion was getting wardens. New dev, new chance.

I feel abandonded and unloved :(

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Originally Posted by Orion

Fist, as it is built right now, is only for holding aggro. I've talked with Graal about this and we both agree that we could rework the trait line but that a rework would be a very lengthy one (new animation, new effects, testing, building, stripping it, rebuilding, retesting so on...) and one that we, simply, do not have enough time and resources for in the near future. Long term, we want to look at it and make it better. We've also discussed getting more ranged into the class, for the moment, we are focusing on getting these next iterative steps in and up.

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Originally Posted by Drglory

This is exactly why i was happy when i found out orion was getting wardens. New dev, new chance.

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I highlighted the Important parts of Orion's post there and it sure sounds a lot like this is Graal 2.0 or Graion!

anyhow im done being Debbie downer so im going to forget my worry wort attitude and go play the game a bit.

I hope that the idea that Orion is throwing around regarding morale taps being adjusted for raid tanking comes to fruition. When someone tells you on your warden that they have to figure out what to do with you in the new raid then something is wrong. Now being heavly invested as i am with my warden it really upsets me being told that.

I would very much like to also see the preception of wardens in the new raids change as a whole. Give us the tools to actually do it without having people tell you when coming to the boss fight to leave the raid cause you cant agroo swap with another tank. I know it's happened to me!

Talk about having the class that you truly enjoy playing completely put down in front of the whole raid.
What do you think that says to the whole raid (Oh i guess it's true wardens can't really agro swap if he's being asked to leave the raid). I've agro swapped with a guard on the turtle raid so why can't i be given the shot to do it in the OD raid. I don't want to be cut out of the new raid simply because people have the precieved lack of faith in warden tanking. I'm really sick and tired of all the doubt that gets thrown our way.

P.S. I will be eagerly awaiting the full warden proposal from Orion.

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Originally Posted by HalProudFoot

. When someone tells you on your warden that they have to figure out what to do with you in the new raid then something is wrong.

I would very much like to also see the preception of wardens in the new raids change as a whole. Give us the tools to actually do it without having people tell you when coming to the boss fight to leave the raid cause you cant agroo swap with another tank. I know it's happened to me!

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Wow you are playing with the wrong people then! If my raiding alt wasn't a class we need desperately in order to raid (captain) they'd bring my warden all the time. Even the kins on our server who don't tank with wardens know what they can add and don't ask them to leave. We cheer when we can have our 3 main wardens on a raid, because of what they can add! 3 fights off the top of my head that 2 wardens are great for: Durchest, Wound wing, Blind One.

It seems that perceptions about the class need to change, and the only way that's going to happen is if quality players show them what's possible. The warden is 100% the most difficult to play on an end game level, but we have our place with folks who know what they can do.

The biggest reason I'm so determined to be heard in this thread is because my apathy the last time around I didn't say anything and we ended up with NS, which I refuse to use.

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Originally Posted by heynanni

It seems that perceptions about the class need to change, and the only way that's going to happen is if quality players show them what's possible. The warden is 100% the most difficult to play on an end game level, but we have our place with folks who know what they can do.

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Well, I can think of another way perceptions could change... the revisions could actually address some of the problems people have.

How are we at all optimal for Durchest? That one encourages active aggro manipulation on the part of the tanks.

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Originally Posted by ANewMachine

How are we at all optimal for Durchest? That one encourages active aggro manipulation on the part of the tanks.

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Corruption removal and our mitigations. I'm still not 100% comfortable with my cappy in front of Durchest trying to catch the debuff. A warden can stand in front of him easily and still be putting out dps/constant corruption removal. This is sort of an urban myth, but the trend in our kin is that Durchest specifically stays off the guard and goes for the champ or warden (sometimes the captain >.<).

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Originally Posted by heynanni

This is sort of an urban myth, but the trend in our kin is that Durchest specifically stays off the guard and goes for the champ or warden (sometimes the captain >.<).

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Yeah, our cappy tanks a lot more than he should, through no fault of his own. Moving the aggro debuff around is a huge pain in the butt.

@heynanni Exactly! I mean i know what my warden can and can't do and if i don't know it i'll learn how through trial and error like everybody else.

I think one of the many problems in raids is that the raid leaders either never played a warden or they are told by others what they think the class can't do (wether true or not) and the raid leaders take it for truth. So with some of them its pointless to explain to them what you can do since they've already made up their minds.

Finally i think that many players need to break out of that old mold of Guards being the only tanks in the game. Wardens have been in game long enough for all these myths about wardens not being real tanks to be over with,We are real tanks and we show our ability to tank on a daily basis.

P.S. I do have NS slotted in my quickbar but i've never used it ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rocketeer8015

Huh? People trait spear to increase their Threat, not decrease it. Its one of the reasons fist line is in such a bind, spear does a better job building threat.

---

Sorry did not post all of my line of thinking here. This would go with a revamp of the fist line to make it a much better choice for tanking.

ok just as a thought its been 2 times that i have tanked for a few of my kin mates since they couldn't find anyone else to do the job, they thought "lets try Oun." i said ok and we had mobs at least 10 levels above me. never been where they took me but i had a chance to trade aggro with a level 65 hunter and it worked. all i really had to do was when hunter was kiting he'd bring it near me and i'd toss a PB, then heal, then PB then heal, easy rotation but it worked! it pulled the mob off him enough to let him breathe and with me at level 36, an LM at 47 and the hunter. i had very little problem pulling aggro from him. LM was told to stay back and let her cat do the talking, feed power and heal if possible. so now my kin asks for my help as much as they can AND have asked what they need to do to make tanking easier for me.

the second tiem was same hunter and me, with an RK thrown in. his rocks took the place of the cat and we did it again.

a couple small examples of how kins can actually learn wardens can tank nearly anything you throw them at.

wardens are made for this stuff and to be the one that people call on. they just haven't learned yet, change being what it is is hard to do sometimes, especially with people that haven't seen and experienced what a warden is capable of.

I think Orion is partial to Guardians, because he has a belt named after him... just saying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LtDiablo

I think Orion is partial to Guardians, because he has a belt named after him... just saying.

---

.../thread

personally i think the fist line needs rework. i would keep the light based attacks as they are essential for killing in moria, but i did notice that it was very difficult keeping the warden alive early on at level 25-40 when fighting multiple mobs or killing signatures. This needs work definitely. The warden class as i understand it should have a deed to improve the amount healed per tick and this should be a deed they can achieve early in the game. This would greatly help the leveling process.

Damage output was another issue. Early in the game every battle is almost an epic one trying to kill the mobs takes forever. one of the javelin deed rewards could easily clear this problem up right away by increasing damage output alround by 20%-25% instead of only javelin gambits by 10-15%.

oh and almost forgot Gambits like Onslaught could easily have been made an AOE attack as in early skirmishes solo AOE's would help out tremendously.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by geoboy

.../thread

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Did I win?

Yes. I think that this thread has run it's course. Far too many pages without a derail.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by geoboy

Yes. I think that this thread has run it's course. Far too many pages without a derail.

---

But I has a serious question for Orion! Is it at all possible to get some Wardenism(s) some how incorporated into a trait or skill, just a tiny little subtle easter egg in a description :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LtDiablo

But I has a serious question for Orion! Is it at all possible to get some Wardenism(s) some how incorporated into a trait or skill, just a tiny little subtle easter egg in a description :D

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NO!

/charses

I couldn't be bothered to read this whole thread, but strongly believe Wardens need class improvement. So to Orion, I will simply say with our unique Warden poetry:

Fellow Wardens, we stand proud, and cry, "Once more unto the breach, dear friends..."
Inimitable, unmovable, unwavering in defense of the innocent.
Xenephobia is not in our lexicon as we protect all equally.

My skills are peerless... except when using the Fist line. WTB 3 individually useful trait lines pls.
Everything a Guardian can do, I can match... except threat copies and breaking BPE & common damage caps!
Healing is my strength, with self-defensive buffs and aggro right behind ... but use all 3 at once? Unpossible!

Make of this post what you will. Most of
Us Wardens know the true meaning of our rhymes. They become
Better ways to communicate secretly, and only the cleverest may
Raid our hordes of knowledge. Only the best of us Warden
Tanks know how to unlock our secrets.
By learning our code, you must swear that
Giving away our secrets to lesser-classes. To
Us, giving away the secrets of our rhymes is a horrible crime and will
Aggro mobs of angry Wadens on you. Then you will need all of your
Tools and tricks to escape alive.

~Rae

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Varenthor

Make of this post what you will. Most of
Us Wardens know the true meaning of our rhymes. They become
Better ways to communicate secretly, and only the cleverest may
Raid our hordes of knowledge. Only the best of us Warden
Tanks know how to unlock our secrets.
By learning our code, you must swear that
Giving away our secrets to lesser-classes. To
Us, giving away the secrets of our rhymes is a horrible crime and will
Aggro mobs of angry Wadens on you. Then you will need all of your
Tools and tricks to escape alive.

~Rae

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You're doing it wrong. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Belaeren

You're doing it wrong. :)

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Ignore shortcomings, say everything is ok and, win!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by heynanni

Wow you are playing with the wrong people then! If my raiding alt wasn't a class we need desperately in order to raid (captain) they'd bring my warden all the time. Even the kins on our server who don't tank with wardens know what they can add and don't ask them to leave. We cheer when we can have our 3 main wardens on a raid, because of what they can add! 3 fights off the top of my head that 2 wardens are great for: Durchest, Wound wing, Blind One.

It seems that perceptions about the class need to change, and the only way that's going to happen is if quality players show them what's possible. The warden is 100% the most difficult to play on an end game level, but we have our place with folks who know what they can do.

The biggest reason I'm so determined to be heard in this thread is because my apathy the last time around I didn't say anything and we ended up with NS, which I refuse to use.

---

I guess I never ran with any of the kins you're familiar with, because I NEVER got to bring my warden on any raids and had to fight just to bring him along on DN. Its the main reason I'm not playing on Meneldor anymore.

I have seen both ways used, and for longer messages, you can
See my way is shorter and less tedious.
Understand, I know both ways, but I wanted to get my longer message out. I guess i have
Complete ignorance on the fact that there is a right way to compose our simple prose.
Kill me if you must.

~Rae

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Orion

Things that are on the table:

• Making Determination more attractive by adding some power regen and increases crit chance reduction

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I like the sound of that! I never run in anything but Conservation 'cos I'm always out of power if I do. If wardens are supposed to be off-DPS, we need to be able to actually, y'know, use skills in our DPS stance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Orion

• Addition of effects that will allow for some Gambits to replace themselves when they are used (ex. Completing a Power Attack while under this effect would immediately fill the gambit bar with Spear, Shield, Taunt) All Gambit lines would benefit from this, the different stances would determine which gambit is altered.

---

Oh, buddy, I dunno ... this looks really dicey to me. The instant flexibility of the gambit system is one of its great strengths -- I don't want to be herded into chaining gambits that I may or may not want at any given moment. Is the idea of making masteries more usable REALLY so bad? Why? Masteries are beautiful things.

I'm also really not keen on the idea of having to memorize yet more different combinations to account for being in different states. Much of the warden class (for me at least) is muscle memory, keystrokes (or mouse clicks) practiced until they've become something I can do without having to think about which keys I'm hitting (and can instead think about which gambit I need to do next). The proposed change sounds to me like now I'm also going to have to be thinking about whether or not I have to follow-up my gambit with a Recovery in order to clear unwanted builders out of the gambit bar. :confused: Not good!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Orion

• Enhancements to some of the Way of the Spear Traits/Trait Set bonuses
  Enhancements to some of the Way of the Shield Traits/Trait Set bonuses
  Enhancements to some of the Way of the Fist Traits/Trait Set bonuses

---

Um, okay. Nothing much here to respond to either way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Orion

One thing that I will be up front about is Masteries. They are not likely to be turned into skills at any time soon.

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Again, why? This is something wardens have been clamoring for, and I cannot for the world see what would be so bad about it. Your followup posts suggest there might be some consolidation or similar stuff happening with them, so I'll keep an eye on that. But the general vibe really seems to be that you guys don't really want us using masteries, which I just don't understand. Why put the things into the game in the first place, then?

I will say here that as my alt is a champion, I'm jazzed about the idea of getting some tanky love on him ... but I really don't want him to be a better tank than my warden, nor even as good as.

And I really want my kinnies to stop saying, when I bring my warden along, "That's cool, but who's going to be the tank?" -- even after I've MTed through countless instances. I would actually go so far as to say that wardens could stand to be completely OP tanks for a while, even with a future nerf built into the plan, just to break people of that habit.

-The Gneech :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thegneech

I would actually go so far as to say that wardens could stand to be completely OP tanks for a while, even with a future nerf built into the plan, just to break people of that habit.

-The Gneech :cool:

---

I would support this.

Quote:

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I would support this.

---

I could only support this if The Buff > The Nerf, after all was said and done.

I'm reading a lot of things that I flat-out disagree with. Wardens are not fine. We can get the job done, but plain and simple, as far as raid tanking goes, we're inferior to guards, and may be inferior to champs, depending on how that update goes. For 6-mans, we don't bring much to the table either. We get the job done just fine, but an overpower guard is usually a better choice. Overpower guards do more dps than spear-traited wardens, and much better AoE DPS. Champs are more difficult to keep up, but that's not really a big deal, and they do so much more DPS that it's well-worth it.

We're great at solo'ing, but there's absolutely no reason to take us on raids, except if we're better geared and more skilled tanks than the guardians available. With two equal players and toons, the guardian is superior for raids, period.

They have a full arsenal of tanking tools available to them: engage (IMO the most garbage skill ever for a tank, it's absolute trash - a one-minute CD full threat copy? Exactly how is that a good idea?), protection, shield-wall, stun-defenses, threat stance, they can create CJ's, DPS better than us, have higher natural mitigation than us, no real power problems except in overpower, and can have similar, if not superior,avoidances. It's pretty ridiculous.

We get conviction (if shield-traited), AoE threat leeches, and some very marginal defensive gambits. I say marginal, because with the exception of shield mastery, the others are 20 second duration. Dance of War and Wall of Steel are 4-icon gambits, for 20 seconds, that's pretty ill-concieved right there. other classes hit one button for 20 seconds, we have to hit 5 (or burn masteries) for that same period of time. On top of that, we still are at cap.

Our self-heals are all 18 second duration (shield-traited), and there's the same problem. 2,3,4,5 icon gambits, for 18 seconds, which means when we're using them, it's pretty much all we're doing.

In a raid environment, or even in 6-mans, how often do you have the luxury of being able to sit there and just spam self-heals without someone pulling aggro? It's not going to happen, and the fact that those exist to counter-balance the loss of mitigations we have (and some might say avoidances) vs guards, but they aren't even viable to maintain in most situations, points to a serious flaw.

Some wardens are trying to say that they give up almost nothing going from shield to spear-traits, except for some avoidances. This is downright silly too. It takes away the usefullness of conviction, to give us marginal DPS. Don't get me wrong, I pretty much prefer to tank spear-traited for most things as well, but in raids, conviction is a bonus for taking a warden, and the dps you gain isn't worth it.

Our threat generation is superior, but on single targets, engage pretty much trumps that. We don't have the emergency skills, and that's a fatal flaw as well. our avoidances are a joke compared to guards as well. They have pretty similar, if not superior (when pledge is up and depending on their traits, etc), with much higher mitigations, and critical defense.

-----

With all that being said, my thoughts on fixing wardens (for tanking) boil down to a few major things.

Number one - either make the masteries into one class trait, or into trainable skills, but having to take up 3 class trait slots for things that we absolutely need just to function is beyond terrible. Every other class can at slot two or three traits from a different line and still get their capstone, we can't even slot one. The masteries shouldn't count, period.

Extend the duration on self-heals to 18 seconds for other lines, 30 seconds for shield. This will allow us to actually do other gambits than self-heals, and allow us to mix things up a little more.

Extend the duration on our avoidance buffs to at least 30 seconds for the other two lines, and one minute for shield line. Add some partial avoidances in there while you're at it :)

An outright 5% parry and evade bonus - not a rating bonus, an outright percentage bonus. Why should we cap at the same point (or less, when they have their skills running) for parry and evade that guards do, when they are wearing heavy armor and lugging a heavy shield around? with our natural mitigations lower from using medium as opposed to heavy, it makes absolutely no sense that we don't have higher natural avoidances (and a higher cap) as a result as well.

Rework Never Surrender - instead of this goofy 20% from everyone in the fellowship, just give us the threat we had before we died (we can catch up from there), and yank the penalty altogether, there's no reason to have a penalty on that skill at all. There is absolutely zero justifiable reason period to have a penalty on that skill, we have to die in order to use it, and it gives us less threat than we had before. Guards hit one button, that has a 1 minute cooldown to get to the top of the threat stack. We're already penalized by not having our buffs up that we had before, etc. This is as much a criticism of engage as it is of Never surrender.

Give us some kind of stun/silence/disarm defense - silence doesn't matter for champs, and not so much for guards, disarm hurts all of us equally, but at least champs have hedge, and both classes have stun defense. Any of the 3 cripples us (no bpe, can't do gambits, etc), and we have no defenses against them. This is another design flaw for wardens.

Give us some other means of regaining or saving power. Or better yet, simply lower our power costs. At any rate, address the power issue somehow. I don't run into tremendous power problems in raids usually, but in raids, you have captains and loremasters as well. our one power-recovery gambit is of extremely limited use in raids. Give us something we can use more consistently.

Critical defense - the OD 5-piece bonus is nice, but that should be something innate, not something we need to turn around and get 5 pieces of raid armor for.

Aggro swaps between wardens being made easier somehow would be nice, considering the raid boss mechanics that the devs seem to be favoring now, as well. swapping aggro between a warden and a guard is really easy, but between two wardens is pretty unlikely when you're looking at 10 second windows of time - without being reliant upon champs, at least.

A couple other thoughts - more AoE dps, we have just about zero. More ranged DPS (so we can ranged-tank perhaps?), maybe a 5 meter range on precise blow (when traited?), or something as well.

-----

For other things, a secondary role would be really, really nice. Kiting and keeping conviction up is not a secondary role, nor is mediocre (at best) DPS. Bumping up DPS in spear-line would be really nice, or making us viable ranged-DPS would as well. Once again, some AoE DPS would be a nice thing as well.

As far as soloing, I could care less. I don't solo if I don't have to. I've done some goofy things, just to see if I could, but other than bragging rights, there's no reason to, and it's not really a 'class role' in my eyes. Other classes can do some pretty crazy things as well, and it simply doesn't matter in the big scheme of things. Who cares if some warden over on whatever server spent 6 hours and 20 gold on consummables solo'ing some nstance?

Fist line - this concerns me. I don't care what it turns into, as long as the other two lines are reworked, though. We should be fully viable raid-tanks (shield-line), have a secondary role (dps/spear-line) and there should be reasons to take us over a guard or champ for 3/6 mans, so perhaps that could be the purpose to this line, I don't know. Also, the fact that champions are getting reworked so thoroughly, and it would appear that hunters are as well (again), yet, it's 'too much work' for wardens, is really bothersome. We're second-class apparently, and there are no intentions of changing that, is what can be easily read into that.

-----

I'm sorry for the negative tone of this post, but I've been reading a lot of things from people that are either sugarcoating the real issues or that are somewhat uninformed/inexperienced.

I'm an endgame raid tank, I've successfully tanked just about everything in the game, with the exception of Gortheron, Ivar, and Durin's Bane on
tier 2 so far (and hopefully correcting that soon). I didn't turn 65 last week, and I think I'm pretty good at what I do. I'm not saying our class is broken, I'm saying that we do need some changes pretty badly, though, and that we aren't as effective tanks as guards for raiding purposes, or as either champs or guards for 6-man content.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OrcSmiter

....

---

Good points there.

I really dont get the "masteries stay as they are", I couldn't see anyone saying the Fist line is useful for something, everyone is "thrilled" about our superb aggro catch up skill. All wardens agree they basically use only one stance and one trait line. And that trait line bonuses are almost worthless, excepting the capstone.

Its very rare on a forum to have so many agreeing on the same thing. Maybe we're onto something here Orion?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HolyGigi

Good points there.

I really dont get the "masteries stay as they are", I couldn't see anyone saying the Fist line is useful for something, everyone is "thrilled" about our superb aggro catch up skill. All wardens agree they basically use only one stance and one trait line. And that trait line bonuses are almost worthless, excepting the capstone.

Its very rare on a forum to have so many agreeing on the same thing. Maybe we're onto something here Orion?

---

There's a large contingent of Spear-specced Wardens who are routinely ignored by Shield-specced wardens. Spear is good at what it does. IMO Shield and Fist are the poorer trait lines. At least everything in Spear is useful. (And no, Skill and Power does not, in fact, exist).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ANewMachine

Spear is good at what it does. IMO Shield and Fist are the poorer trait lines. At least everything in Spear is useful. (And no, Skill and Power does not, in fact, exist).

---

In groups I prefer to spec shield, I dont see what benefit Spear will bring to the fellowship. Solo, yes, I try to maximize my damage output as much as possible so I go spear. And yeah, I dont think Shield is a good trait line, but the bonus to Conviction makes it worth it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HolyGigi

In groups I prefer to spec shield, I dont see what benefit Spear will bring to the fellowship. Solo, yes, I try to maximize my damage output as much as possible so I go spear. And yeah, I dont think Shield is a good trait line, but the bonus to Conviction makes it worth it.

---

Give spear a chance and keep using conviction.

1) more threat in spear
2) better power conservation in spear
3) very little defense sacrificed

If you are a shield specced warden that only uses shield mastery and conviction from the shield line, please rethink your choice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by geoboy

If you are a shield specced warden that only uses shield mastery and conviction from the shield line, please rethink your choice.

---

I do most instances without healers, have a good cappy and a good burg in as friends, no need to bring dedicated healers for most 6 mans anyway. Thats why I use conviction, stacks well with rallying cry and fellowship attacks :)
I know the tanking part wont be affected if I trait in spear, I just dont know if my nerfed healing will be enough

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HolyGigi

I do most instances without healers, have a good cappy and a good burg in as friends, no need to bring dedicated healers for most 6 mans anyway. Thats why I use conviction, stacks well with rallying cry and fellowship attacks :)
I know the tanking part wont be affected if I trait in spear, I just dont know if my nerfed healing will be enough

---

A Captain can heal most 6-mans nowadays. Try it in Spear. If you're only using Conviction, odds are that you'd make it anyway. Conviction does a lot of healing, yes, but it's supplemental in that group makeup and FM choice. Spear means more power efficiency, more damage, more threat. And it just *feels* better to me than spamming away at self-heals and PBs.

I think my biggest complaint is definitely the attitude of procrastination toward the warden class. I mean, think about it. Remember waaaay back to Shadows of Angmar. It was probably a year before Moria. There was a big fat class revision where all sorts of nerfs and buffs just came out of the woodwork after all of the players had several months of playtime and had developed suggestions to flesh out their classes. What classes got this? All of the original SoA classes:

Burglar
Guardian
Hunter
Minstrel
Captain
Loremaster
Champion

Now think back to a few months ago. We can add:
Runekeeper

Warden class has never had an honest to goodness worthwhile overhaul (Never Surrender does not count) since it was introduced in late 2008. I think part of it is that there's a lot of fear of change on the forums (Wardens with fear? wth.) and part of it is just that there seems to be an avoidance of ever making meaningful changes to the class by the developers.

Personally, I feel pretty strongly at this point that if this revision point for Wardens in RoI isn't attacked seriously (you can look at the recent Burglar revisions as an example) that I'll just move on to another game. I've invested a lot of time and effort, and I really don't want the devs to tell me that they have no clear end-vision for the class - because right now there is no rhyme or reason to many of their class design decisions. Just sayin'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ANewMachine

A Captain can heal most 6-mans nowadays. Try it in Spear. .

---

I wanna see the Captain that heals Lost Temple or Forochel solo...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cecth

I wanna see the Captain that heals Lost Temple or Forochel solo...

---

In my defense, I said most. And they probably could do T1 with no problems.

Orion - MY main class is a warden and I play it a lot.

Im seeing the general trend from this forum and just like to say what I LIKE about the warden.

1) power consumption is fine. If you don't even have a little bit of ICPR then you are supposed to run out of power eventually. TO make things clear - I have zero problems with power.
2) Never Surrender is useful when it works, but the 5 minute debuff is long and makes us relatively useless for a while.
3) Spear Line DPS is not great HOWEVER, we are tanks so what do you expect? Perhaps allow us to have a better DPS build (efficiency of stats ?) for those who want to PVP.
4) I love aggression, battle memory, conviction.
5) Bug fixes are always appreciated.
6) The warden allows those who are skilled in gambits/tanking to excel at LOTRO group play more than other classes. Please don't take that away from us.
7) I have zero problems with masteries. They are the core of the warden class.

Others:
6) Finding ways to increase HoTs are tough - might "tie-in" would be helpful for that particular build.
7) Allow us to "One-Up" a Guardian somehow - it could be better self-heals, better BPE rating, Better [insert useful tanking/PVP skill.]
8) When PVPing (excluding ambush/Hampering Javelin) there is little to "hold/stun" a target in place. In contrast Guardians get many slows.
9) Yes. Fist/Yellow line is useless but all good wardens don't use it anyway. PErhaps it could help us crowd control for example apply fears with fist skills to "disable" or "slow" or even give "debuffs." It doesn't have to be threat!


Hope my opinions help Orion, you are the one in control here though >.>

TANKING BASICS:
WE must have aggro swap skills for all instances.
We must have a way to hold threat against strong DPS classes.

So Orion.. Wardens?

WOW, an 11-year necro.

Not complaining, Wardens do need work, but WOW an eleven-year necro.

SO, yea, Orion, anything in the works for Wardens?

Well, the return of Orion was an almost decade old necro itself, so this seemed appropriate for the situation :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FrasierWCrane

Well, the return of Orion was an almost decade old necro itself, so this seemed appropriate for the situation :D

---

Well then, let us sing a most appropriate song for this thread - The Hearse Song in celebration of the necro...

:p

Another QQ post.

I spent a decade playing a warden.

Last year I started a captain.

That's a real change in emotional investment (I maaay have been over-invested in the warden...)

My captain has overtaken my warden in every aspect in a 10th of the time.

Have a meeting, bring biscuits.

Make a plan.

Do some development.

I don't care what it is, just do something...

Given Orion is currently in the midst of rather large and much needed changes to the PvMP system, I doubt there will be much scope for him to do any in depth work for Wardens. If you look hard enough there are some class changes coming as seen by some Palantir leaks floating around the various discords but I've not seen anything for Wardens.

closing as necro