Release Nov 18th

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Originally Posted by Elderban

On the subject at hand, though, I have to side with a lot of other people here and ask...if the Big Battles are part of the Epic Story and and "integral part" of the expansion (thus the reason we have to pay for the Epic Story), then why are people at level 10, who are nowhere near said part in the story, able to partake in the Big Battles? And, furthermore, does this mean that going forward that we will have to pay for the Epic Storyline?

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It's a "one way latch". You can do the battles at level 10 (I suspect that not many will, except to test the concept), but to do the Epic, you will have to do the battles.

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Originally Posted by Lohi

This epic quest thing to me sounds like the first case of an actual about-face of "we'll never do X".

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Second, actually. The first was "LotRO will have NO form of PvP."

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Originally Posted by Hundolf

RJ - thanks for hunting down that quote.

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Originally Posted by Fredelas

I think it's ironic that this quote was made exactly two years ago today.

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Your welcome and LOL at the irony, nice catch, I just went with the first link that popped up in Google about Turbine previously promising the epic storyline would always be free for everyone, totally not paying attention to the date, thanks for pointing that out, too funny!

J would like to know the real reasons of the leaving of Aaron Campbell, was he agree with all of that ?

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Originally Posted by Lohi

If they sold a optional $1000 version that included a platinum figurine of Frodo, someone out there would complain about it being the most expensive game ever :-)

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Make it a figure of the Great Goblin and you can shut up and take my money.

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Originally Posted by Belnavar

You're not just paying for the Epics though. They are part of the content.

I would expect these three books to follow in the same style as the three books of RoR, and thus should be better than the Dunland book.

-Bel

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I too have high hopes for the new three books. :D The Dunland ones were a let-down. That one area in the north-east (I forget what it's called) and especially the prisoner sequence was great, but otherwise... O.o

I understand that this time around the epics aren't the whole thing -- far from it. It's just such a change from what has almost been tradition since f2p launched (or more specifically, since Volume II minus the epilogues was opened up) that it's a pretty big bump to get over without getting whiplash. xD

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Based on what others said... I'm even more surprised than I thought possible. It didn't even occur to me at first that players can join BB at level 10, and yet are somehow locked behind the epics? Catch-22 much?

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Originally Posted by Vandervahn

Whats wrong with "Hey guys, Producer X here. I know we always said A about the epic quest, but financial realities/a shift in focus/the constellation of Orion aligned with Alpha Centauri forced us to evaluate and change our position to B..." I dont even have a problem with the decision, business is business, but the delivery is off. I thought this game praises itself on its community. How about some reciprocal respect then?

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Gosh, after reading so much about HD I seriously needed that laugh. Thanks. :)

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Originally Posted by robbie1435

-New PvP map: They actually said they WEREN'T doing this on multiple occasions.
-Instances come with Riders of Rohan: I didn't have to pay separate for them, I got them with the Expansion
-The store is a convenience, no?

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1) They only said that after having previously said they would, thus the "going back on promises".
2) They claimed the instances would come with RoR. Instead, half of them came several months later, the other half came half a year later. Granted, considering the number of bugs infesting the woodwork, they needed the extra time. But that doesn't change the fact that they said the instances would be coming WITH RoR. If I say I'm going to the mall WITH my friend, that does NOT mean I'll arrive there a few months later (much less expect my friend to still be waiting). "Part of" an expansion is a long ways away from "with" an expansion. They were part of, but not with. And as I recall, they only added them as "part of" after massive outcry in the forums. IIRC, they originally intended it to be a separate purchase, but changed their minds (and also added in TP to try and sweeten the deal).
3) Debatable...

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Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave

I too have high hopes for the new three books. :D The Dunland ones were a let-down. That one area in the north-east (I forget what it's called) and especially the prisoner sequence was great, but otherwise... O.o

I understand that this time around the epics aren't the whole thing -- far from it. It's just such a change from what has almost been tradition since f2p launched (or more specifically, since Volume II minus the epilogues was opened up) that it's a pretty big bump to get over without getting whiplash. xD

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Based on what others said... I'm even more surprised than I thought possible. It didn't even occur to me at first that players can join BB at level 10, and yet are somehow locked behind the epics? Catch-22 much?



Gosh, after reading so much about HD I seriously needed that laugh. Thanks. :)



1) They only said that after having previously said they would, thus the "going back on promises".
2) They claimed the instances would come with RoR. Instead, half of them came several months later, the other half came half a year later. Granted, considering the number of bugs infesting the woodwork, they needed the extra time. But that doesn't change the fact that they said the instances would be coming WITH RoR. If I say I'm going to the mall WITH my friend, that does NOT mean I'll arrive there a few months later (much less expect my friend to still be waiting). "Part of" an expansion is a long ways away from "with" an expansion. They were part of, but not with. And as I recall, they only added them as "part of" after massive outcry in the forums. IIRC, they originally intended it to be a separate purchase, but changed their minds (and also added in TP to try and sweeten the deal).
3) Debatable...

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Gotta love when people give comparisons around here...

Well the $60 pack is ordered.

Like most players I think its order now and if Helm's Deep does not work as claimed I will not be around to order the next installment next year, so I risk $60 and Warner Bros risk this business if they mess it up.

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Originally Posted by Eartholloth

Gotta love when people give comparisons around here...

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:P What can I say? I love comparisons. I was told when I had some testing done (was tested for ADHD, Dyslexia, etc) that I have an exceptionally large vocabulary, and I enjoy making full use of language. ^_^

Here's one for you. :D

Coffeeology 101
1. Expresso yourself.
2. Stay grounded.
3. Take life one cup at a time.
4. Better latte than never.
5. Take time to smell the coffee.

(source: some place on FB that my mother was looking at)

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Originally Posted by BackAgainAndThere

Agreed, agreed. The F2P model should be designed to bring new players to the game who are prospective BUYERS, not bring players who freeload the entire way and just take up server space. :p

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No business is under ethical obligation to provide something for free. That being said, I was raised to either not make promises or keep the ones you make. I think generally people expect that level of integrity (Turbine does with NDAs). The players were not the ones who used the word "promise," the Turbine staff did.

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Originally Posted by JTollers

No business is under ethical obligation to provide something for free. That being said, I was raised to either not make promises or keep the ones you make. I think generally people expect that level of integrity (Turbine does with NDAs). The players were not the ones who used the word "promise," the Turbine staff did.

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Did Turbine actually promise that all Epics going forward would be free? If so, then I can understand player concerns (even from those who have already or intend to buy the expansion), as it is a matter of principle. That said, things do change, and sometimes when a promise is made, it is made with the current roadmap and plans in mind, not with what the future may bring (which none of us can, unfortunately, predict).

-Bel

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Originally Posted by Belnavar

Did Turbine actually promise that all Epics going forward would be free? If so, then I can understand player concerns (even from those who have already or intend to buy the expansion), as it is a matter of principle. That said, things do change, and sometimes when a promise is made, it is made with the current roadmap and plans in mind, not with what the future may bring (which none of us can, unfortunately, predict).

-Bel

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They did. Pretty sure the quote was re-quoted somewhere earlier in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Belnavar

Did Turbine actually promise that all Epics going forward would be free? -Bel

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https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...48#post5676848

+Sapience's acknowledgement that they were living up to the promise here certainly would indicate that to me.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonBladeEU

Make it a figure of the Great Goblin and you can shut up and take my money.

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Film Great Goblin?

That would be one impressive platinum chin scrotum.

/sold :D

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Originally Posted by Crell_1

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...48#post5676848

+Sapience's acknowledgement that they were living up to the promise here certainly would indicate that to me.

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Thanks for that. You are right. The wording does seem to indicate it.

-Bel

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Originally Posted by Elderban

On the subject at hand, though, I have to side with a lot of other people here and ask...if the Big Battles are part of the Epic Story and and "integral part" of the expansion (thus the reason we have to pay for the Epic Story), then why are people at level 10, who are nowhere near said part in the story, able to partake in the Big Battles? And, furthermore, does this mean that going forward that we will have to pay for the Epic Storyline?

*Note: Not an exact quote, but I can't find the original one.

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This is the million dollar question and one I would liked answered. The devs may have thrown Sapience under the bus over the never charging for an Epic, but the response about Helm's Deep being so intrinsically tied to the Epic should have been vetted better to conceal actual reasons more properly.

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Originally Posted by Crell_1

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...48#post5676848

+Sapience's acknowledgement that they were living up to the promise here certainly would indicate that to me.

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I"m sorry, but the URL that supposedly points to a quote about the Epic quest line DOES NOT.

Here's the quote that URL points to...

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Originally Posted by Sapience

(September 12, 2011)
As GregJL pointed out Dn was only 'free' if you had purchased Moria (with cash by the way as it was the only option at the time). Currently we do not have pricing or a bundle that is 'the expansion' for Isengard in the LOTRO Store, nor will we until after update 5 releases and we can actually create that package with the instances included. So again, all the pricing you are looking at is a la carte.

So once again I'll remind everyone that trying to compare a la carte pricing to package/bundle pricing isn't really a valid way of doing things.

Also, trying to compare a nearly 3 year old expansion and pricing to an as yet unreleased expansion is also a bit of apples and oranges. If you want me to guess what Isnegard pricing and bundles will look like in two years, I'm going to have to beg off. I really wouldn't have clue one.

I've actually seen someone complaining that we're living up to the promise we made that the epic story line will always be free to all players. I'm not sure what to do with that complaint at all.

I can appreciate that there were assumptions made that turned out not to be accurate and that that's caused some confusion, but please let's try to keep the discussion to the facts as they are known and not rumor, speculation, or assumption.

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If someone can come up with the actual quote, it would make interesting reading.... but this one has nothing to do with the Epic quest line, Free or otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Hundolf

That is freaky. I wonder if Lifer's are locked out of epic since it only comes in the expansion.

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I would say yes, we've always been required to pay for the expansions and their content. And this year, the epic is in the content. For me it's ok, because I get the xpacs every year regardless.

/ignores the gripe-fest

I used my stipend to buy Rohan last year, but because the pre-order goodies seem good and Turbine wisely decided to include pretty much anyone who buys this expansion in the most compelling content this time (no matter their playstyle or even level...), I'm going whole hog this year. Premium + Legendary Pack: putting my money where my mouth is. (The purchasing process seemed much more professional and fast this year - thanks for that).

Not sure if I'll use the ticket to the Hobbit movie or not, but I probably will - my kids will want to go, no matter what PJ does with the story ;).

Khafar

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Originally Posted by Vandervahn

Wrong. There is a myriad of places between the "pure" F2P status and the lifer that has it all.
There are lots of people that regularly pay, but do NOT own all the QPs and expacs.

The change in handling the epic sets a nasty precedent for the future. Because previously anyone could at least travel and follow through all zones and follow the main story without buying everything. You could for example elect to not buy Mirkwood, but at least see it and follow the important points through the epic quest. Which Turbine religiously touted as their MAIN selling point for F2P and select-purchase.

If Turbine follows the HD model in the future, all following content will be cordoned off unless you buy everything there is. Goodbye select-purchase then, we´re back to a subscriber-only-with-a-twist game.

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There's a lot of theory here, and no facts.
Sadly, Time Warner (Turbine) won't provide us with the facts, so we have to make them up as we go along to suit our arguments.

The only fact which we know for certain, at least today -- Turbine is "an ongoing concern" -- that is to say, an apparently successful business division that makes money for it's parent company, Time Warner, inc.

Turbine has chosen to expend some number of dollars on the continuation of the MMO known as LOTRO. (Turbine does have three other "older" products, DDO and AC1/AC2 and a third yet to be released, IC.) We have no idea what their budget looks like, but every one on these forums confidently states that Turbine spends no money on fixing bugs or old content... only on creating new content. In this case "Helm's Deep." So, that implies that the financial model for LOTRO is pretty thin. That possibly implies -- only Lala's Store keeps LOTRO afloat, i.e. all of the "pay to play" goodies sold in the LOTRO Store.

Again, we have no idea how successful, if at all, from a Dollars and Cents point of view, the Riders of Rohan expansion was. Or put another way... how many expansion packs were purchased, and was that a large enough number to cover the development cost.

To hear people in these forums posting it seems pretty clear that there were not many expansions sold, implying that in fact, the Riders of Rohan expansion did not cover its development costs. All we do know is that there were Layoffs and Management changes after its release.

So, such "stumbles" in income projections are not infrequent in business, and besides it was during a major de-recession, when expendable income was tight.... so they get to try again. Mr. Deep Pockets (i.e. the Warner Brothers Interactive Parent) has willingly "fronted" them monies to "do another expansion." But, like the IMF, WB expects "financial responsibility." What does that mean?
Mainly it means... project the number of copies you expect to sell, divide that number into the total cost of Development, and you get the absolute minimum price per copy of the Expansion. Factor in a profit margin, cookies and rum for RockX and Sapience, and the price goes up.

So, how many employees does Turbine have who are "dedicated" to LOTRO? 10, 100, 1000? How much does it cost to run the Data Centers, and pay the ISP bills? Add those costs in and the price per copy keeps going up.

So, how many copies of Helm's Deep does it take to break even?

At $60.00 per copy 1,000 copies sold generates $60,000. -- that probably doesn't even cover 1 person's salary.

100,000 copies generates $6,000,000 -- not a lot of money to run a major business on.

So, we flip the question around -- how many people play LOTRO? Again, Turbine won't tell us, so we have to make-up our own numbers.

We know there are 29 Worlds. Making up numbers based on Lux Aeterna's graphs, it looks like the lowest number of logins is about 100,000 per server with "average peaks" around 300,000 per server. So lets say that translates into 100,000 unique users logging into 29 servers every week... 2,900,000 accounts. Remember, I'm making these numbers up out of thin air, the real numbers could be much more or much less. Turbine won't tell us.

So, $60 x 1,450,000 (half of our 2,900,000 players) = $87,000,000. Is that enough to cover development costs, and the ongoing costs of keeping LOTRO running?

Compare that to the US Government which spends $434 million per HOUR!

WB paid $160 million for turbine in 2010. That year Turbine apparently had revenues of $20 million, and 140 employees.
Implying that my made-up numbers are overly optimistic. So, lets say that all $20 million is from LOTRO, ignoring DDO/AC1/AC2. Divide $20,000,000 by $60 and we get 333,333 paid copies of Helm's Deep.

Obviously, we can continue this exercise ... how many employees make how much (including benefits) .... etc.

But other than fun while waiting for the next beta.... it's all an exercise in futility -- we have no data to project with.

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Originally Posted by Valamar

If someone can come up with the actual quote, it would make interesting reading.... but this one has nothing to do with the Epic quest line, Free or otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

I've actually seen someone complaining that we're living up to the promise we made that the epic story line will always be free to all players. I'm not sure what to do with that complaint at all.

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"... the promise we made that the epic story line will always be free to all players ..."

How is this, which you quoted yourself, not about the epic story (=quest) line ?

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WB paid $160 million for turbine in 2010.

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I wonder what they'd sell it for in 2013?

Interesting to fantasize about we, the players, buying out LotRO.

Unfortunately, we'd have to buy the rest of Turbine, including DDO and whatever else comes with it (not a dig at DDO, I am just not interested in owning it).

Obviously, it would take 160,000 people, each putting up $1K, or 16,000 people, each putting up $10K, to cover the price WB paid. Assuming we paid cash, of course.

Buying it on credit looks more feasible, as you could maybe envision a smaller number of people putting together a down-payment and being able to afford to spend a bit more over time.

Still much easier if one of us wins the Lotto, I suppose, and more likely too...

:D

For population numbers, your gonna get a more accurate number by doing a whois search from the social panel & adding up the levels. I have done this several times during prime time & most of the time, there is quite a bit of difference in population numbers from the whois search to glff. The whois search having the higher number of players then in glff. For example one evening I counted up the players on Meneldor, there was not even 200 in glff but over 750 from the whois total. Usually the servers are at least double if not more then what's in glff. This is a prime example why people should not use glff for population numbers.

There is no choice about the new class system,
That was a waste of 1.5 years of learning Mini, down the drain

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Originally Posted by LagunaD

I wonder what they'd sell it for in 2013?

Interesting to fantasize about we, the players, buying out LotRO.

Unfortunately, we'd have to buy the rest of Turbine, including DDO and whatever else comes with it (not a dig at DDO, I am just not interested in owning it).

Obviously, it would take 160,000 people, each putting up $1K, or 16,000 people, each putting up $10K, to cover the price WB paid. Assuming we paid cash, of course.

Buying it on credit looks more feasible, as you could maybe envision a smaller number of people putting together a down-payment and being able to afford to spend a bit more over time.

Still much easier if one of us wins the Lotto, I suppose, and more likely too...

:D

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Isengard bids 5...

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Originally Posted by whitering

plus I don't have kids who need the 100 bucks I could have spent on shoes.

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Well, I do have kids and 2 of them are playing LOTRO. I'll buy the premium edition for myself and the base edition for both of them, which will cost me 126€ which is about 170$. I guess I will yet again have some explaining to do to my wife.

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Originally Posted by Valamar

....We know there are 29 Worlds. Making up numbers based on Lux Aeterna's graphs, it looks like the lowest number of logins is about 100,000 per server with "average peaks" around 300,000 per server. So lets say that translates into 100,000 unique users logging into 29 servers every week... 2,900,000 accounts. Remember, I'm making these numbers up out of thin air, the real numbers could be much more or much less. Turbine won't tell us.....

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If the numbers of logins not per week?

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Die untenstehenden Diagramme beziehen sich jeweils auf den Zeitraum Montag bis Sonntag.

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As many players log in every day you must divide by 7.

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Originally Posted by Radbug

Isengard bids 5...

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You beat me to it... and that has to be the most epic line in the game for sure. Every time someone asks how much X is worth in global there's always someone answering "Isengard bids 5", and it's always as fun as the first time :p

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Originally Posted by whheydt

Second, actually. The first was "LotRO will have NO form of PvP."

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And how does that make you feel?

Hmm didn't see the part about the epic gated behind the expansion, does not affect me personally but i don't think it's a good idea for 2 Reasons.

1. I never liked people going back on their word, i put games on blacklist for that before.
2. The epic quest line would have been the perfect way to "demo off" the big battles for people being on the fence about purchasing the expansion, like let everyone run the big battles which are part of the epic once with the epic line and if they want to run more/again they need to buy the exp.

Edit:I retract the question about Big Battles, read the Q+A again, i guess it states each of them has a solo option, my bad for not reading right:P

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Originally Posted by Sapience

Players will ultimately be the judge, but I personally think it's epic. You're going to be there when Gandalf casts out Grima. If you're a lore buff, I think it hits all the right marks.

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and tha's how you finally kill a game, "the players will judge" yup with their wallets, the epic has been free all the way through, you yourself even stated in the past that turbine promises the epic will always be free, you're now going back on that promise, watch the players walk my friend watch the players walk.

This is getitng close to the last straw for me. I'd rather play AoC they may have a system where you have to buy an expansion and sub to access it but at least their expansions have a lot of content, not a glorified quest pack that takes away content from the free players.

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Originally Posted by Thorwyn99

Hmm didn't see the part about the epic gated behind the expansion, does not affect me personally but i don't think it's a good idea for 2 Reasons.

1. I never liked people going back on their word, i put games on blacklist for that before.
2. The epic quest line would have been the perfect way to "demo off" the big battles for people being on the fence about purchasing the expansion, like let everyone run the big battles which are part of the epic once with the epic line and if they want to run more/again they need to buy the exp.

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Well said.

Other Epic volumes were great show-off of the zones you could buy and I found the way to obtain the warhorse in Rohan very well done under that aspect.
Why not to do something similar here?

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Originally Posted by ironmountain

J would like to know the real reasons of the leaving of Aaron Campbell, was he agree with all of that ?

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What!! When did he leave?

I have no problem with epic story accessible only to the expansion buyers but this is another broken promise that will have negative consequences for the development of the game. I am now very curious whether the statement about expanding the license is still valid.

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Originally Posted by TinDragon

I think his point is that if he doesn't like the changes he's not going to play the game, which means buying the expansion is a waste of money.

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a sentiment MOST of my friends share, its sad but these changes to our classes are just BAD. and add in that we get ZERO new instances just this "big battles" gimmick pshh
40 bucks for a glorified quest pack and another failed gimmick used for marketing (mounted combat) and with freeps nerfed to hell paired with the fact that the moors is the only real reason to sub to lotro i see turbine bleeding lotro subs in the very near future

I believe when the the statement was made for the Epic to be free always, Turbine was independent at that time yes?

They are owned by Warner Brothers now... I don't believe Turbine should be the whipping post for everything that goes wrong ..

When I started to have minor account issues (affected "quality of life" stuff, and all but 1 char to be corrupted after 45) I took a stand to not spend anything on the game till my account is fixed. 10 months now. Now I learn that the game is now Pay to Play for content that I truly believe is way overpriced for something that is still just a promise. I don't even get to see the region to see if it is worth something. This is how many of my kinnies decided to buy new content. I see a major loss in potential earnings down the road if they don't retract their reneged promise.

And many of us have supported the game, and do a lot for the community. We also buy based on experience. Without at least a "demo", many won't buy Helm's Deep.

The content sounds good, but I am a free marketeer. If you don't want to fix my issues, you better amaze me to get me to buy an overpriced expansion.

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Originally Posted by Jillymala

I believe when the the statement was made for the Epic to be free always, Turbine was independent at that time yes?

They are owned by Warner Brothers now... I don't believe Turbine should be the whipping post for everything that goes wrong ..

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False, they were definately owned by warner brothers when RoI came out.

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Originally Posted by Hundolf

False, they were definately owned by warner brothers when RoI came out.

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My apologies then :)
Then this just strengthens the feeling that Turbine itself is a company owned by Warner Brothers and they are ultimately responsible for it.

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Originally Posted by Jillymala

My apologies then :)
Then this just strengthens the feeling that Turbine itself is a company owned by Warner Brothers and they are ultimately responsible for it.

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The people at the top of Turbine will effectively be WB Execs. I'm comfortable in holding 'Turbine' responsible for the good and the bad.

+Sapience

Given that the epic is NOT free,

Is landscape access to West Rohan free? Will players be able to go there and grind mobs to level to 95 or will they be limited to scaling instanced spaces and earlier land-masses for that?

I don't know if anyone has been privy to the license agreement, but I wouldn't assume that LoTRO shuts down whenever the license expires. This is purely speculation, but I would guess that the license is perpetual for already developed content and the license ending bars the development of any new content.

When someone makes a LoTRO movie they have to license the rights. Those rights have a term and the film has to be made within that term. When that term ends the filmmaker isn't barred from selling that film any longer, he is just barred from using the intellectual property for any other development.

My guess is that even if the license is not renewed Turbine can credibly state without lying that they will support LoTRO for years to come by keeping the existing content and servers running. If Helms Deep is profitable I'm sure Turbine will want to renew. If it isn't they may be better off ceasing new development but continuing to provide the existing content.

So it's finally here, I remember back in Mirkwood thinking how awesome the game would be when we finally got to Helm's Deep, and how Turbine would approach it. So all in all what we are paying for in this "Expansion" is:
1.Quest Line- A given

2.New Land Mass-A given

3.Epic Battles- Glorfied skirmishes but surely can't be a bigger gimmick than mounted combat...so that's fair enough.

4.Class Updates/Balance(?)- This seems like a game update more than a defining feature of an expansion.

5. Epic Quest- Well looks like that's going to cost money. In my opinion the landscape tells a better story than the epic line does now, so it won't be missed. Are we honestly still on Volume 3? That story has been rambling on with no purpose for a while, can't imagine why I'd pay for it...

6. Level cap increase to 95-Levels stopped meaning anything at level 75. 95 is just an illusion of progression.

7. Goodbye to Raids- Many will remember you fondly. You were a bunch of fun pre-Erebor (I even preferred Draigoch to you). RIP

8. 1 More year of grind!- Let's have a moment of silence for the hours of life many lost grinding this year. Horse-Lord recipe farming...you took too many. Gold gear farming...you took more. :(

I used to love this game, but it's not the same game anymore. I have been fairly outspoken in the past about the direction the game is headed, but it's not out of anger or having the need to have people quit the game with me out of spite. I'm just disappointed in what was once a fun game that I'd like back.

1. Make GLFF VIP only
2. Flying mounts
3. Be able to mail more than one item at a time
4. Fix /follow command

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Originally Posted by Ephixofcrickhollow

2. Flying mounts

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No. NO. NO!

So who else thinks it'll be the worst selling expansion in LOTRO history? Most people I know are done once RoR is over and the game is undeniably going downhill.

This isn't an expansion it's more like a $15-$20 DLC or big questpack to put it in lotro terms either way $40 is just not good value for money especially with aggravation of the store added in.

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Originally Posted by Lynchpin13

So who else thinks it'll be the worst selling expansion in LOTRO history? Most people I know are done once RoR is over and the game is undeniably going downhill.

This isn't an expansion it's more like a $15-$20 DLC or big questpack to put it in lotro terms either way $40 is just not good value for money especially with aggravation of the store added in.

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Opinions Opinions! Everywhere!

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Originally Posted by LagunaD

Interesting to fantasize about we, the players, buying out LotRO.

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Beware though. First shareholders meeting would have the majority of players vote to kick out PvP, second meeting would get rid of full raids, and the third would add non-combat mini-ent pets for everyone.

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Originally Posted by whheydt

Second, actually. The first was "LotRO will have NO form of PvP."

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That's also something from before the game was even released. Was it a "promise" given that it was common knowledge to everyone that plans during development are always subject to change?

To me anything in the game is always subject to change, and it's really no big deal unless you fork out some money due to a specific plan for a feature and then that gets changed. Ie, if you sign up for a lifetime account because a game says it will have PvP and then it never appears, it would be very disappointing to feel like the money is wasted. On the other hand, the 5 years spent playing this game should never be considered an "investment" in that way, because those 5 years presumably were spent getting value from the subscription (anyone paying but not playing is doing it wrong). So in that sense any "promise" made a few years ago should be allowed to change without anyone complaining that their investments are now worthless. Plans change, the economy changes, the industry changes, nothing really works out as expected, that's all normal. The best anyone can do is promise to do something within their power as one tiny cog in a giant machine.

In that sense, the only straight-up promise I've seen in this game was the epics-will-remain-free.

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Originally Posted by Edrogar

and tha's how you finally kill a game, "the players will judge" yup with their wallets, the epic has been free all the way through, you yourself even stated in the past that turbine promises the epic will always be free, you're now going back on that promise, watch the players walk my friend watch the players walk.

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Doesn't this really only affect players who aren't paying anyway?

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Originally Posted by Oldin

Let's have a moment of silence for the hours of life many lost grinding this year.

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This was entirely optional, and you did it solely because you wanted to. You can only blame yourself. I never once saw a horse lords recipe because I wasn't going to get dragged into grinding.

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Originally Posted by Lynchpin13

So who else thinks it'll be the worst selling expansion in LOTRO history? Most people I know are done once RoR is over and the game is undeniably going downhill.

This isn't an expansion it's more like a $15-$20 DLC or big questpack to put it in lotro terms either way $40 is just not good value for money especially with aggravation of the store added in.

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Well, you would think every new expansion would be the worst selling, because not everyone who bought the previous expansion will.

I guess you can maybe skip Mirkwood pretty easily, since it's out of the way and only a 5 level cap (which you can easily do in Enedwaith), but Isengard and Rohan are kinda needed.

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Originally Posted by trancejeremy

Well, you would think every new expansion would be the worst selling, because not everyone who bought the previous expansion will.

I guess you can maybe skip Mirkwood pretty easily, since it's out of the way and only a 5 level cap (which you can easily do in Enedwaith), but Isengard and Rohan are kinda needed.

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Levelling is never an issue, you can hit cap super fast just spamming skirmishes. The lack of compelling content after you grind out an increasingly meaningless 10 levels is.

Turbine has failed to deliver a decent endgame since RoI(where it was nothing to write home about) and big battles sound about as stupid and boring as the unimaginative title(seriously Big Battles was the best thing they came up with?!).

You pay $40-100 for what is essentially a single player game with sub-par story, questing and graphics compared to the top single player RPGs of today. What few MMO aspects have made it this far are getting the chop for HD.

The worst part is that someone who gets to make decisions is deluded enough to think this product is getting better when it's essentially on life support.

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Originally Posted by Lynchpin13

So who else thinks it'll be the worst selling expansion in LOTRO history? Most people I know are done once RoR is over and the game is undeniably going downhill.

This isn't an expansion it's more like a $15-$20 DLC or big questpack to put it in lotro terms either way $40 is just not good value for money especially with aggravation of the store added in.

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If the class changes are a train wreck, the next expansion will be the worst selling in lotro history.

This is lame and stupid. I have been a part of this game for 3 years and own about everything. The content has been dumber and dumber...easier and easier. The game has little to offer at this point and bad decisions by turbine are forcing people like me to find something else to do. This may just be the last nail in the coffin for lotro.

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Originally Posted by Thorgrum

If the class changes are a train wreck, the next expansion will be the worst selling in lotro history.

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Well apparently we the players were just CLAMMORING for these class changes.

So I ask ye... anyone? ANYONE? Did anyone here or anyone you talk to request any of this? I know I sure didn't.

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

Well apparently we the players were just CLAMMORING for these class changes.

So I ask ye... anyone? ANYONE? Did anyone here or anyone you talk to request any of this? I know I sure didn't.

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Well, I know I asked specifically for Hello Frodo Online.

/sarcasm off

I'd give a lot to know how current pre-orders are doing as well as a comparison to previous x-pacs

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

Did anyone here or anyone you talk to request any of this? I know I sure didn't.

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I'm probably not typical, but I'm looking forward to them. Why? Because I get bored when I feel like I know game mechanics well - once I know the game's patterns inside and out, I start to lose interest. One of the reasons I have many characters is simply because trying a new class offers me an opportunity to learn something new, and once I've played them long enough so they're familiar, boredom sets in.

Class changes give me a reason to pull out various characters I essentially stopped playing years ago, and re-evaluate. See what's new, what's changed, what adjustments need to be made. That's fun for me.

Anyway, Turbine may have other reasons for this, like trying to appeal more to new potential customers, or reworking/simplifying things so they're more maintainable (fewer bugs and balance issues). I talked to a friend who worked on SWG once upon a time, and he told me that their simplification of professions (NGE) was really a matter of survival for them. The system they had was simply far too complex, far too brittle, far too buggy. Every change they made broke several other things, and they couldn't function properly - it had to change. It's almost certainly not that bad here, but there might be a bit of that going on.

Khafar

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Originally Posted by Lynchpin13

Levelling is never an issue, you can hit cap super fast just spamming skirmishes. The lack of compelling content after you grind out an increasingly meaningless 10 levels is.

Turbine has failed to deliver a decent endgame since RoI(where it was nothing to write home about) and big battles sound about as stupid and boring as the unimaginative title(seriously Big Battles was the best thing they came up with?!).

You pay $40-100 for what is essentially a single player game with sub-par story, questing and graphics compared to the top single player RPGs of today. What few MMO aspects have made it this far are getting the chop for HD.

The worst part is that someone who gets to make decisions is deluded enough to think this product is getting better when it's essentially on life support.

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Wait, can you really level that fast? Could you tell me how?

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

Well apparently we the players were just CLAMMORING for these class changes.

So I ask ye... anyone? ANYONE? Did anyone here or anyone you talk to request any of this? I know I sure didn't.

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Well yes and no. No I don't recall people asking for class rewrites and trait trees. Yes I recall people asking for skill consolidation, however not en masse. I played creep for about a year straight and whined and QQ'd as loud as anyone, I then took about 6-9 months off from the game. I came to realize my QQ days were largely wasted effort. Turbine, good and bad, has a vision for its product. What the players want is largely irrelevant as long as turbine dosent negatively impact the game to a high degree. Now the lag, that's a big one I know several people who don't play anymore because of it (and the lack of it being fixed). The class changes could be a massive improvement or a mess. If its a mess that's not good for anyone, at the end of the day I like being in middle earth, turbine allows me to do that. The F2P model allows for new people to keep coming in, I don't know what their retention rate is but I suspect in the coming year thousands will try LOTRO, never having had exposure to the old system, some will stick. So it goes....

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Originally Posted by Khafar

I'm probably not typical, but I'm looking forward to them. Why? Because I get bored when I feel like I know game mechanics well - once I know the game's patterns inside and out, I start to lose interest. One of the reasons I have many characters is simply because trying a new class offers me an opportunity to learn something new, and once I've played them long enough so they're familiar, boredom sets in.

Class changes give me a reason to pull out various characters I essentially stopped playing years ago, and re-evaluate. See what's new, what's changed, what adjustments need to be made. That's fun for me.

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So, for you, irrespective of the content and new material to play through, being familiar with a class = boredom for you? If this is the case, mayhap ye need to play a few other MMOs on the side in addition to this one. That'd even out a few things and ensure that familiarity and thereby boredom, happens much slower.

Personally, class changes annoy the snoozles out of me. If I work to get good at something, I like to enjoy the benefits of the effort I've put in. If I worked on becoming good at something IRL, I don't become bored with it once I've become good at it. I'm darn good at cooking. Have I become bored with it? Absolutely not. It means my food tastes better and I'm able to do things that most average cooks couldn't even imagine.

The same is true with a class. Once you know it inside and out, things that most people think can't be done, become possible.

I enjoy the reaction I get when my RK, spec'd straight DPS redbar, can still managed to shell out DoTs and still keep a raid party alive. :)

As for Champions, my oldest and dearest class... what can I say. First they took our shields without our permission, making it so a quest reward that was in my inventory for years was equipped one day and unusable the next, then they changed things with revisions so the class was almost unrecognizable. Now, based upon reading the dev diary, I hear that Dire Need and Second Wind, both skills I use frequently will be down different trait trees and you'll have to put points into it to use it. I don't see these changes as an improvement. I see it as reinventing the wheel, when the wheel only needed a bit of polishing.

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Originally Posted by Thorgrum

Well yes and no. No I don't recall people asking for class rewrites and trait trees. Yes I recall people asking for skill consolidation, however not en masse. I played creep for about a year straight and whined and QQ'd as loud as anyone, I then took about 6-9 months off from the game. I came to realize my QQ days were largely wasted effort. Turbine, good and bad, has a vision for its product. What the players want is largely irrelevant as long as turbine dosent negatively impact the game to a high degree. Now the lag, that's a big one I know several people who don't play anymore because of it (and the lack of it being fixed). The class changes could be a massive improvement or a mess. If its a mess that's not good for anyone, at the end of the day I like being in middle earth, turbine allows me to do that. The F2P model allows for new people to keep coming in, I don't know what their retention rate is but I suspect in the coming year thousands will try LOTRO, never having had exposure to the old system, some will stick. So it goes....

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I think ye are absolutely correct Thorgrum. With the next Hobbit movie coming out, thousands more will try LOTRO, and will never have seen the old trait system. HD is coming out before the movie, after all.

Then a whole crop of new folks will flood in. Not having any criteria for differentiation, and seeing trait trees similar to SWTOR, Rift, and WoW, many will feel quite at 'home', and will stay.

I get the sneaking feeling that this is all about drawing new players in, and to heck with retention of existing players. We're all very replaceable and have far too long of a memory for their tastes, I'd reckon.

I'd venture that HD wasn't designed with endgame players in mind. No raids, instances, or skirmishes. And level 10s can participate with level 95s. XD

My guess it was geared to draw new folks in. Constantly. Though one part perplexes me. I can't for the life of me imagine why they wouldn't give players at least a 'taste' of Big Battles. If it truly is the be all and end all crowing achievement thus far in LOTRO, wouldn't this draw even MORE players in and make them want to buy the expansion? It makes no logical sense to me.

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

being familiar with a class = boredom for you?

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Yep. And once I ran out of new classes to play, I started playing other MMOs with some regularity. TOR's classes were so similar between factions and there were so many shared mechanics across classes that I grew bored with those faster than usual - it was really only the class story lines which held my interest, but even those only lasted 10 months or so.

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If I work to get good at something, I like to enjoy the benefits of the effort I've put in.

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I agree when it comes to real-life skills, but not for games. I'm guessing that's because the "problem space" for most games is quite limited compared with real-life activities. At least for me, Koster's Theory of Fun book nailed my own experiences - once I've figured out the patterns, mechanics, and math behind a game, I lose interest in it. Most single-player games are simple enough that the 1-4 weeks I spend playing them are just about right... by the time I've played that long, it's pretty clear just how everything works, and something that seemed great fun several weeks ago is now collecting dust. I do go back and play some older games(i.e. 5+ years prior) now and again, mostly because I've since forgotten how everything worked ;).

Anyway, once these class changes arrive, I'm probably going to spend the entire next year re-learning classes I've mostly mothballed in LOTRO (along with the ones I still play more regularly). Looking forward to it.

Khafar

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

I think ye are absolutely correct Thorgrum. With the next Hobbit movie coming out, thousands more will try LOTRO, and will never have seen the old trait system. HD is coming out before the movie, after all.

Then a whole crop of new folks will flood in. Not having any criteria for differentiation, and seeing trait trees similar to SWTOR, Rift, and WoW, many will feel quite at 'home', and will stay.

I get the sneaking feeling that this is all about drawing new players in, and to heck with retention of existing players. We're all very replaceable and have far too long of a memory for their tastes, I'd reckon.

I'd venture that HD wasn't designed with endgame players in mind. No raids, instances, or skirmishes. And level 10s can participate with level 95s. XD

My guess it was geared to draw new folks in. Constantly. Though one part perplexes me. I can't for the life of me imagine why they wouldn't give players at least a 'taste' of Big Battles. If it truly is the be all and end all crowing achievement thus far in LOTRO, wouldn't this draw even MORE players in and make them want to buy the expansion? It makes no logical sense to me.

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I think the scope of the rational has to be a bit bigger. Its not just to bring in new players but to generate enough revenue to continue to produce the product. The game costs money to make and maintain, regardless of what we think they should or shouldn't do its their creation they have to keep it going. End game for me has always been the moors, I find the instances to be redundant and not challenging beyond "how much of a hit can you absorb". I concede it wasn't always like that but here we are. My conclusion is they aren't producing the games expansions based on what people don't want. I suspect they have market research and have made calculated choices to retain some, gain some but make the title easier for all. Its been dumbed down a lot, its sad but understandable at the same time. The answer to your last question, I don't know. I suspect the upfront sales are desired but the consumer who spends 19.99 in the store on quest packs is also ideal. 6 months from now some of those F2p people are going to buy the HD quest pack on sale in the store. A sale is a sale afterall.

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

I get the sneaking feeling that this is all about drawing new players in, and to heck with retention of existing players. We're all very replaceable and have far too long of a memory for their tastes, I'd reckon.

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More like "we're far pickier and more costly to please". They'd never say anything like that in public, but I'd honestly be surprised if that weren't ever discussed in private (because it's true). Still, I don't think that's the primary force behind putting their effort into "Big Battles". By their own admission, raiders are a pretty small percentage of their players, and are consuming what's far and away the most costly content to produce and test. I think they'd have to be loony to keep on keeping on with that situation post-layoffs.

Big Battles are about trying to offer endgame to a much broader set of customers, and selling the expansion to more people. Most expansions pretty much ignore newer players, giving them absolutely zero reason to buy them. This one won't. The quest content is still level 85+, but at least one of the main attractions will include pretty much everyone. Also, it should be easier to find groups once people can auto-scale to 95.

Khafar

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

Well apparently we the players were just CLAMMORING for these class changes.

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We have class changes all the time, it's no big deal. We had a huge class change with Moria, with lots of complaints, more than we have now as I recall. But today people look back on those changes as being perfectly normal.

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Originally Posted by Khafar

Also, it should be easier to find groups once people can auto-scale to 95.

Khafar

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Oh aye...

No offense to any new player intended, but I can see it now...

Level 10: "Hey, I just joined this game two hours ago. Wanna do BB?"

Level 95: "The Valar take me!"

:P

My opinion: Grouping is hard enough without there being 85 levels between skill sets of the players. Enough folks get to 85 and still not know how to play their toon other than autoattack, and facerolling. And this is supposed to make grouping more fun and exciting? Hmm...

I don't mind playing with new folks. I do so all the time, on my lower level toons. But playing with people who have absolutely zero clue what they're doing, on an at level battle, with my endgame toon? Color me unconvinced.

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

No offense to any new player intended, but I can see it now...

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I fully expect we'll see our share of elitist "endgame snobs" once this arrives. However, other people are just out for fun, and aren't going to throw a hissy fit if some newbie causes them to get a low score on Big Battles. Other games have done auto-scaled content, and this one can as well.

Khafar

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

Well apparently we the players were just CLAMMORING for these class changes.

So I ask ye... anyone? ANYONE? Did anyone here or anyone you talk to request any of this? I know I sure didn't.

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The class changes are the one reason I haven't pre-ordered yet. If they fundamentally change the way I play my class and the things I can do, there's really no reason for me to stick around anymore. I'm the last one in my guild left, I'm only still messing around with it because I've always loved the game. If they change my classes too far from what I can do with them now I'm done.

I am really liking the way the class changes are looking. Really looking forward to play some alts that will have significant changes.

I love the scalable content, it will certainly make grouping easier and more fun. I cannot wait to play with my friends, we all together, independent of our levels.

Even though I loved it all, and did not ask for any. I would like to see work on the lag and revamp on old areas. I bought them all, but today they seem like a wast of money and time. I would love to see Angmar and Trollshaws revamped. The story opportunities could be so much fun.

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

Oh aye...

No offense to any new player intended, but I can see it now...

Level 10: "Hey, I just joined this game two hours ago. Wanna do BB?"

Level 95: "The Valar take me!"

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I can totally picture that too. Plus, it's odd that players that don't qualify to be "Skirmish Recruits" will be able to join these new battles.
I don't know, not convinced by what I've read so far so, not pre-purchasing either.

But, I do hope the expansion proves itself worthy. Or the game will keep losing players to other MMO's.

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

Well apparently we the players were just CLAMMORING for these class changes.

So I ask ye... anyone? ANYONE? Did anyone here or anyone you talk to request any of this? I know I sure didn't.

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There has been frequent and varied demand for changes with the whole trait-, skill and combat system.

Just a few:
Lack of character growth after lvls 50/65.
Lack of trait system growth after lvl 50/65
Lack of real customizability because of necessary legendaries and rigid trait sequences
Cumbersome retraiting
skill bloat
quickslot shortage
useless or too situational traits, useless complete trees
virtually inevitable trait and tree choices because of their extreme effectivity (e.g. Now for Wrath for Captains)
Boring skill rotations that had to be kept up because nothing rivalled them in efficiency

The new system has the possibility to tackle a lot of these issues.

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Originally Posted by Khafar

I'm probably not typical, but I'm looking forward to them. Why? Because I get bored when I feel like I know game mechanics well - once I know the game's patterns inside and out, I start to lose interest. One of the reasons I have many characters is simply because trying a new class offers me an opportunity to learn something new, and once I've played them long enough so they're familiar, boredom sets in.

Class changes give me a reason to pull out various characters I essentially stopped playing years ago, and re-evaluate. See what's new, what's changed, what adjustments need to be made. That's fun for me.

Anyway, Turbine may have other reasons for this, like trying to appeal more to new potential customers, or reworking/simplifying things so they're more maintainable (fewer bugs and balance issues). I talked to a friend who worked on SWG once upon a time, and he told me that their simplification of professions (NGE) was really a matter of survival for them. The system they had was simply far too complex, far too brittle, far too buggy. Every change they made broke several other things, and they couldn't function properly - it had to change. It's almost certainly not that bad here, but there might be a bit of that going on.

Khafar

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I will second this. SWG is the only MMO that had C++ pure virtual function call errors make it to live, even years later (memory is hazy now, but I think I still saw them in 09 or 10).

...Quote of Sapience "we're living up to the promise we made that the epic story line will always be free to all players" found here https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...48#post5676848

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Originally Posted by Hundolf

RJ - thanks for hunting down that quote. I knew it existed somewhere and I'm glad it made it through the forum update. I'm a little shocked that they are going back on their word with regards to the epic story, not a lot shocked, but a little. I'll still pick it up on a Black Friday sale, but 20 bucks is the limit on this for me. Not due to funding limits, due to what I think its worth based on historic experiences with this game.

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don't get me wrong i love this game. all i want to know is how many more promises lotro will break? they even promised that after the last warden change they will never mess with the warden again but now with HD coming out they are completely changing the ward as well as all classes. we all know that lotro needs to make a profit i get it but please stop making promises that you all can not keep.

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Originally Posted by SarielAngelisa

...Quote of Sapience "we're living up to the promise we made that the epic story line will always be free to all players" found here https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...48#post5676848



don't get me wrong i love this game. all i want to know is how many more promises lotro will break? they even promised that after the last warden change they will never mess with the warden again but now with HD coming out they are completely changing the ward as well as all classes. we all know that lotro needs to make a profit i get it but please stop making promises that you all can not keep.

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It is not entirely fair to use a 2+ year old quote to support a claim. Yes, they originally said that the Epic would be free, however as time goes on plans do change, and especially this is true for this particular genre. I could easily point out times where other companies in other markets that have gone on to state similar things, with a few of them being far more egregious to the results.

That said, you should also probably quote the entire statement as well, as it is nowhere near the context you're providing it to be.

When F2P started they said the Epic would only be free through level 50 (only the SoA Epic). Then they made it all free. Now it's free through RoR content. Future updates and expansions may or may not see more free Epic.

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Originally Posted by DarkCntry

It is not entirely fair to use a 2+ year old quote to support a claim. Yes, they originally said that the Epic would be free, however as time goes on plans do change, and especially this is true for this particular genre. I could easily point out times where other companies in other markets that have gone on to state similar things, with a few of them being far more egregious to the results.

That said, you should also probably quote the entire statement as well, as it is nowhere near the context you're providing it to be.

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all my point is they make promises and then go back on their word....that is my point. like i said i get it its all about money...like all games are. i pay to play this game I'm not complaining about having to pay I'm complaining about the promises and breaking them. its is one way to hurt their business which i know of four people who been on this game for years who payed for it all and now do to changes they left cause this game was different then other MMO's but now they are making it like them MMO's. well anyways lotro will make it changes, its up to the person if they get HD or not. all i asked is how many more promises they will make then break...

So I've been skimming the thread looking for the answer but hadn't spotted it yet.

Are the +10 Quests and Shield of the Hammerhand going to be offered in the store like the 6th Bag and Outrider token have been?

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Originally Posted by PKCrichton

So I've been skimming the thread looking for the answer but hadn't spotted it yet.

Are the +10 Quests and Shield of the Hammerhand going to be offered in the store like the 6th Bag and Outrider token have been?

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Not at launch; Though, they expect the +10 Quests to show up eventually.

Note: Because it is the first time that an item has been both an XP accelerator and a cosmetic there's no indication of what form the shield of hammerhead would take if it'd ever appear.

Source: Lotro's Twitter Feed at various times. Forgive me for not looking them up.

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Originally Posted by PKCrichton

So I've been skimming the thread looking for the answer but hadn't spotted it yet.

Are the +10 Quests and Shield of the Hammerhand going to be offered in the store like the 6th Bag and Outrider token have been?

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The +10 Quests I can comment on. File it under "eventually", though I don't know when that will be.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

The +10 Quests I can comment on. File it under "eventually", though I don't know when that will be.

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Originally Posted by Crell_1

Not at launch; Though, they expect the +10 Quests to show up eventually.

Note: Because it is the first time that an item has been both an XP accelerator and a cosmetic there's no indication of what form the shield of hammerhead would take if it'd ever appear.

Source: Lotro's Twitter Feed at various times. Forgive me for not looking them up.

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Thanks for the info. At least we know the 10 quest slots will be in the store at some point. It would be nice to hear back on the Shield before launch for those last people still debating on 'How shall I obtain this content'.

Another question is we have heard that Housing Storage is being changed into a vault type system where you buy spaces at an even higher cost than we have been accustomed to over the last 6 years. Are those who already own housing chest space going to have to pay the new prices to keep their chest space?

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Originally Posted by Kaynith

Oh aye...

No offense to any new player intended, but I can see it now...

Level 10: "Hey, I just joined this game two hours ago. Wanna do BB?"

Level 95: "The Valar take me!"

:P

My opinion: Grouping is hard enough without there being 85 levels between skill sets of the players. Enough folks get to 85 and still not know how to play their toon other than autoattack, and facerolling. And this is supposed to make grouping more fun and exciting? Hmm...

I don't mind playing with new folks. I do so all the time, on my lower level toons. But playing with people who have absolutely zero clue what they're doing, on an at level battle, with my endgame toon? Color me unconvinced.

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The Epic Battles have different roles. Tank/Heal/DPS/CC is much less important than the EB Engineer, Leader, & Vanguard skills. Sure a level 10 will be inexperienced, but a level 20, who has been working on the solo EBs or duoing with a friend could have developed decent Engineer or Leader skills or both and be an asset for any group. (Vanguard looks like it needs decent DPS from your scaled up class, so 85 scaled to 95 will be much better than 20.)

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Originally Posted by DarkCntry

It is not entirely fair to use a 2+ year old quote to support a claim.

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Really? I seem to remember that Reagan was mocked even after he got out of office for saying "No New Taxes" during his campaign .. Or was it another president? Lets face it, when statements like those are made, and readily accessible IN THE GAMES OWN FORUMS, its hard to not be held to them. Not to mention that they ran an entire ad campaign on the "Thou shalt not pay" tag line, including a Super Bowl ad. Look up that phrase, the commercial is still on YouTube, advertising that Lotro is still Free to Play.

It makes people question the integrity of the company.

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Originally Posted by Darlgon

Really? I seem to remember that Reagan was mocked even after he got out of office for saying "No New Taxes" during his campaign .. Or was it another president? Lets face it, when statements like those are made, and readily accessible IN THE GAMES OWN FORUMS, its hard to not be held to them. Not to mention that they ran an entire ad campaign on the "Thou shalt not pay" tag line, including a Super Bowl ad. Look up that phrase, the commercial is still on YouTube, advertising that Lotro is still Free to Play.

It makes people question the integrity of the company.

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You know how many times my Cable company has decided to add a new surcharge to my bill despite stating many times over that it won't do it? The point I am trying to make is that as time changes, so do directions and priorities. Adjustments will happen to make sure that the product is capable of still turning whatever profit it needs to make, as such, if anyone truly expects these promises to be forever, then they really should get a grasp on reality...after-all, there's an entire market of things built on broken promises (see: divorces).

I also am not entirely sure about your last bit about advertising LOTRO as free-to-play, are you trying to say that it's not the case? Last I saw, there were no required purchases to play the game.

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Originally Posted by PKCrichton

Another question is we have heard that Housing Storage is being changed into a vault type system where you buy spaces at an even higher cost than we have been accustomed to over the last 6 years. Are those who already own housing chest space going to have to pay the new prices to keep their chest space?

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I would really like to know this too.

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Originally Posted by Thorwyn99

I would really like to know this too.

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I would be VERY surprised if you had to re-buy something you already own.

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Originally Posted by trcanberra

I would be VERY surprised if you had to re-buy something you already own.

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I agree, but they have been awfully quiet about the housing chest change(unless i missed it) a blue confirmation would ease my mind :D.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

Yes. Prior to this expansion the Epic Story line has been free.




Exactly right.

The Epic Story in Helm's deep is very tightly entwined with the Epic Battle system. The story in Helm's Deep is the Epic battle we all know from the books. We've returned to the core story line from the lore and that line leads in a direct path, laid out by the Professor himself, into Helm's Deep and the battles and heroic deeds that occur there. As a result, this means the Epic story requires the purchase of the Helm's Deep expansion. Otherwise you'd not be able to complete it as it moves through the Epic Battle system.

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I don't know if this was asked or even answered before, but why did turbine so tightly entwine the epic story with the big battles when it is so plain to others that it didn't have to be like that? what is the plain and simple reason for doing it that way? If I knew a truthful answer it might lead me to buy it but for now I can't possibly see going on with this story until the truth comes to light. Just be honest...no spin. Just the facts good sir!

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Originally Posted by PKCrichton

Another question is we have heard that Housing Storage is being changed into a vault type system where you buy spaces at an even higher cost than we have been accustomed to over the last 6 years. Are those who already own housing chest space going to have to pay the new prices to keep their chest space?

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Wow PKC. I thought you had everything nailed down from what all you have accumulated from Beta. ;P

I read a Beta tester post, I think somewhere in the mess that was the Dev Chat on the NDA drop, that said that you started with 60 spaces and then had to buy more, some with in-game coin and some thru the store. Since two chests now is 60 spaces, hopefully that means you wont have to pay a second time.

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Originally Posted by LaGere

I don't know if this was asked or even answered before, but why did turbine so tightly entwine the epic story with the big battles when it is so plain to others that it didn't have to be like that? what is the plain and simple reason for doing it that way? If I knew a truthful answer it might lead me to buy it but for now I can't possibly see going on with this story until the truth comes to light. Just be honest...no spin. Just the facts good sir!

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Here read this.. From here

https://www.lotro.com/en/game/articl...ep-quest-notes

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Originally Posted by Dev Diary Helms' Deep Quest Notes

When you buy the Helm’s Deep expansion, you will also get access to the next three Books of the Epic Story:

Volume III, Book 11: The Golden Hall
Volume III, Book 12: War in the Westemnet
Volume III, Book 13: Helm’s Deep

But why are these Books tied into purchase of the expansion? I wrote a post on the forums in September to explain the decision,


...



We're a Free-to-Play game now, so obviously that requires a change in approach. We gradually modified the way the Epic worked. People forget now, but when the transition to F2P happened the existing expansion packs didn't have free Epic Books - you had to pick up Mines of Moria in order to do its six Epic Books, and if you didn't have Mirkwood then Volume II Book 9 was also blocked away. As the level cap increased and we got further and further into the game (and further along in our story's timeline), we loosened restrictions on what you needed in order to experience those Epic Books. You could play them for free, and you could solo them (if you wanted - except for the Volume II Epilogue. That one's on me, guys. Sorry!)


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But there would come a time in the future when the decision wasn't so easy. What if there were a system looming on the horizon that would be the centerpiece of an expansion, such that everything was tied into it, and the Epic Story needed to interweave with it in such a way that we couldn't separate the two, but we also couldn't give you the entire system for free? Ah, I'm sure our Future Selves will handle it.

Well, here we are in the future, confronted with a system that allows you to experience the Battle of the Hornburg in all its rainy glory, and an Epic Story that would be doing you a disservice if it didn't tell the story of that battle. There are players who play the Epic even without buying the expansions, and I am sorry that this is a change for you guys. But it's a change that serves to reward the players that do pick up the expansion, and makes the expansion a better deal, more worth your time and your money. This is just an expansion change for now - I'm hoping we can keep the Epic Story free in other updates. But for big expansions I'd expect that it'll be featured as one of the Things You Get on the 'virtual box.'”

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Wait, did I not just quote that in answer to you in another thread? Click the link and read the article.

" Well, here we are in the future, confronted with a system that allows you to experience the Battle of the Hornburg in all its rainy glory, and an Epic Story that would be doing you a disservice if it didn't tell the story of that battle. There are players who play the Epic even without buying the expansions, and I am sorry that this is a change for you guys. But it's a change that serves to reward the players that do pick up the expansion, and makes the expansion a better deal, more worth your time and your money. This is just an expansion change for now - I'm hoping we can keep the Epic Story free in other updates. But for big expansions I'd expect that it'll be featured as one of the Things You Get on the 'virtual box.'”

the part with the big expansion really made me laugh, moria was a big expansion helm deep a big quest pack nothing more imho.

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Originally Posted by Nosdracir

Sure a level 10 will be inexperienced, but a level 20, who has been working on the solo EBs or duoing with a friend could have developed decent Engineer or Leader skills or both and be an asset for any group.

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But even if inexperienced, it doesn't matter. No one is forced to group with anyone else against their will. If you want to help that person, then you're allowed. Maybe it's a kin member, maybe it's that annoying person in glff who keeps asking "can someone help me powerlevel?", or maybe you just want to try. This applies even if the character level scaling applied to real instances and not just big battles.

In big battles not that the solo battles allow 2 players. Unless the level 10 player is full of bad luck, you won't be doing worse with that extra player than by being solo. Plus two level 10 players can both level up to 95 and do that same epic battle. It gives those level 10 players something to do, which is very useful if they don't have a quest pack, and it helps out level 20s who are tired of running the same skirmishes. Ie, if they purchase the expansion there is still something useful from it for low level players.

Note that level 85 players will also automatically scale up to 95 as well. A level 75 who certainly knows the class will also scale up and can play alongside someone who's 95. And so forth.

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Originally Posted by Darlgon

ook up that phrase, the commercial is still on YouTube, advertising that Lotro is still Free to Play.

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But the game is still free to play! Nothing has changed that. The epics requiring the expansion doesn't change that. The game has always required TP purchase of quest packs for free/premium players, and this is just a more expensive version of that.

After F2P was released, epic quests were NOT free to all players! You had to buy Moria expansion to even enter Moria, and have the Mirkwood expansion to enter Mirkwood. If you think that commercial was lying then it had been lying since before F2P was released.

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Originally Posted by DarkCntry

if anyone truly expects these promises to be forever, then they really should get a grasp on reality...

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I saw the news recently about World of Warcraft and free to play. The headline, not written by Blizzard, said "Blizzard rules out free-to-play World of Warcraft". However the actual article does not really say that, it says "It's not something we're currently considering." Woah, almost the same thing Turbine said about LotRO when DDO when free to play... I'm really interested now to see what happens when and if Blizzard does change their mind: will their fans accuse them of breaking promises, even though no such promise appears to exist?