Amor Stands

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Originally Posted by Hijynx

I think we as a player base should be the guage of what's important.

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To take some of the heat off of floon here, I think you hit the nail on the head. WE as a player base should determine what's important. You are confusing WE with YOU.

I'm not trying to be mean or belittle your desire for this. I know how much work went into getting those armor sets and I understand the frustration of seeing them essentially just fade away into nothingness . The truth, though, is that it's an incredibly small subset of the customers who want this, and you're seriously comparing it to the undertaking of the development of Moria?

Floon, keep on keeping on. You are doing a fantastic job. I doubt that you hear that often enough. I truly respect you for your willingness to answer questions in these forums when regardless of the answer you give, 50% of the community winds up berating you for it. And the work you're doing on textures and new looks for gear has made me incredibly happy.

My Champ has been wearing the same cosmetic outfit since level 30, and for the first time I'm finally finding stuff that I'm collecting to make a new one because the dwarven armor styles in Moria are just that freaking cool.

While youre most likely right about them wanting their bank space back. I dont have any epic armours I want saved... so for me, I want it because it would make my house look neat.

But I do see where others are coming from you devs put in armour that is tough to get, and its been perfect armour for a long time now. But with Moria, Im guessing, were heading into the Warcrack direction of armour-grinding... so these folk that raided and crafted to get really good sets of armour. And I dont blame them if they dont want to trash it because its no longer a set worth using.

Being able to make it into a trophy (even loosing the ability to take it off the dummy and wearing it again) is more acceptable than selling it off to the merchant. Regardless of whether or not they want to get their bank space back.

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Originally Posted by floon

And to be honest about this, for many folks (I'm guessing a majority, frankly), this is about inventory space, not about relaxing in your house enjoying the actual armor, dummy.

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Geeze, first you are dismissive then you call him a dummy! :D

Seriously though, when a dev tells you that honestly your suggestion is good but not feasable that is honesty and not being dismissive. Being dismissive would be to say they will look into it while knowing that in reality its just not going to happen.

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Originally Posted by KainXI

Being dismissive would be to say they will look into it while knowing that in reality its just not going to happen.

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Please do not expose confidential posting strategies on the forums. Thank you.

;-)

For me personally, the primary consideration here would indeed be the enjoyment when I visit my house. After all, I go there a lot and personally enjoy the decorating side of the housing system. (I even have an all Elven room, for example, and my main hall is reserved for trophies plus a few items crafted by particular friends or myself). I know many other players with like attitudes, especially in my particular kinship, but you may be right, Floon, as to the majority of players, albeit perhaps not the majority pushing for this particular decoration. I just do not know.

Nonetheless, judging Floon's posts here vs. those given by other certain Turbine employees who shall remain unnamed, I would say Floon has been far from dismissive and has given us rather good (regarding quality, not necessarily regarding what we would like to hear ;) ) responses to our ideas, comments, and concerns. Not all devs and moderators would nor do take the time, so I, for one, appreciate it, even if I cannot have my nice armor stands in the near future.

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Originally Posted by floon

For the third time, the idea is a perfectly fine one. It's harder than it seems at first blush, and there is a slew of things ahead of it in line that will please more people more of the time.

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For some of us, we just want to know that the ideas we post are read and considered, and for the well-thought out ones, some type of 'nice idea, we will see if there is something we can do if we have the time and demand for this is high.'

With that said, we don't know the inner workings of the game engine, although based on past replies some of us can probably figure out where the limitations might lie. For example, finding out that armor does not have a stand-alone model, but is tied directly to the character model is new information (to me at least) that has a much broader implication than no armor/weapon stands in a house.

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Originally Posted by Shilling

To take some of the heat off of floon here, I think you hit the nail on the head. WE as a player base should determine what's important. You are confusing WE with YOU.

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Bingo. We all think we our ideas are far more important than they actually are, because well, it is our idea. As a developer, I never say 'it can't be done' or 'there is more important stuff to do,' even when I know right off the bat that I have no intention of thinking about the idea once I leave the room. But the idea is important to someone, and you want to make them feel that they matter. After all, what could be more important to that person than what they consider important? So, you say something nice and vague about investigating the possibility and see if it works with the rest of what is there. If it is feasible, you go back to the idea maker and get more detail. If not, you move on.

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Originally Posted by floon

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Originally Posted by KainXI

Being dismissive would be to say they will look into it while knowing that in reality its just not going to happen.

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Please do not expose confidential posting strategies on the forums. Thank you.

;-)

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LOL. And here in the post above I just suggested doing that exact thing and personally do it all the time.

I would rather see more space in houses to put stuff, or free form decoration before there's more decorations to put in your vaults/replace another that will now go to the vault. Running out of room with all my trophies and festival decorations :D

For me, I would like this feature because it will give me a chance to show off my accomplishments.

I've been saving items such as "Champion of Minas Caul" and "Riddle-master's Hat" for just such an occasion. Kind of like a "Hey, look what I did!" thing.

Personally I think people get too worked up over these things. It's a game, it's supposed to be fun. Where's the fun in high blood-pressure and yelling at the devs? I think the category is "Suggestions" not "Demands".

just my 2c

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Originally Posted by floon

This has been asked for many times. The issue is that there are no "unworn" armor assets: all armor is part of your avatar model. There is no "unequiped fine radiant cloak" model in the game, there is only the fine radiant cloak that is draped over your avatar.

To create armor stand versions of all the avatar armor would be an enormous undertaking. Absolutely huge. The amount of other art that we wouldn't do, in order to get that done, would be tremendous. And then it would become a constant maintenance issue: every time a new armor appearance is added, we need to also create trophy versions of the new assets.

It's unlikely: not that it's a bad idea, but that the overall bang/buck is pretty low, compared to other, more fun, things we could spend our time on.

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Obviously robot clones that either stand in a corner or path around our house would be the answer, then.

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Originally Posted by arinthros

Floon, I have a question.

Would it be possible to make a 'dummy' to put armour on? Similar to a mannequin in a store. Kind of like a pseudo-avatar. Would something like this allow you to use the already created art and just place it on an inanimate object?

For instance, to mount a suit of armour, you equip the items (use vanity system here) to the dummy. Maybe make racial dummies for sizing.

Obviously it's still a big task, but maybe going a route like this would make the task easier. You could just use the same models that you already have, and not have to make more.


I'm not a game designer, so I don't know if this helps, but it's just an idea.

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Sounds like an armour-wearing NPC that doesn't have any animations but can stand inside a house wearing your gear. Good post.

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Originally Posted by Gumawerian

Sounds like an armour-wearing NPC that doesn't have any animations but can stand inside a house wearing your gear.

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Yeah, that's the idea. Maybe not so detailed as an actual npc (like facial features and stuff).

I may have a solution.

As i understand it, players want:
A) To show off their accomplishments
B) Not simply toss away that hard-earned gear
C) Not have that hard earned gear now uselessly taking up inventory space.

Devs, in return:
A) Can't spend resources making new textures/models for armor that has been "dropped" and is not on a model for every individual piece of armor in the game.
B) Need a solution that is low-maintanence.

Well, why not then have an armor trophy barter NPC? It would be similar to the Trophy taxidermists we have now. You talk to the NPC and GIVE him a full set of X armor, and in return he gives you back a single furniture item, which resembles X armor on a stand. You could then place it wherever you want in your house, and you no longer have the entire set of armor cluttering inventory. Devs would only have to make ONE model for each entire set of armor, and it would be entirely new content for people to strive for collecting.

Would that not be more feasable, floon?

Well, why not then have an armor trophy barter NPC? It would be similar to the Trophy taxidermists we have now. You talk to the NPC and GIVE him a full set of X armor, and in return he gives you back a single furniture item, which resembles X armor on a stand. You could then place it wherever you want in your house, and you no longer have the entire set of armor cluttering inventory. Devs would only have to make ONE model for each entire set of armor, and it would be entirely new content for people to strive for collecting.


This works for me.

I like the idea of the barter npc. And as for this is just a disguised request for more space. I think it is both. Not only would I like to have more space, but I'd like to show off that cool armor I worked hard for at level 30 say, but there is no point in me wearing it now. "Well what about using it as an outfit?" but you can only have two and I'd rather use those for something else. Also something I would like to see along these same lines, is the ability to hang shields on your wall. I'm not sure you would need a whole character model for these, because they are only re sized based on your race. So why not just make one size you could hang on your wall?? Huh huh *nudge with elbow*:D

/signed to armour stands to display around the house, I'd also like closets to hold outfits, jewelry, and armour that isn't on the stand for display.

Hey, I was thinking, how about we get Queen's "I Want It All" set up as the theme song for this thread? j/k but as I read the post about this being the suggestions thread rather than the demand thread, the song just came to mind. :D Just thought I'd share.

Regards all!

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Originally Posted by arinthros

Floon, I have a question.

Would it be possible to make a 'dummy' to put armour on? Similar to a mannequin in a store. Kind of like a pseudo-avatar. Would something like this allow you to use the already created art and just place it on an inanimate object?

For instance, to mount a suit of armour, you equip the items (use vanity system here) to the dummy. Maybe make racial dummies for sizing.

Obviously it's still a big task, but maybe going a route like this would make the task easier. You could just use the same models that you already have, and not have to make more.


I'm not a game designer, so I don't know if this helps, but it's just an idea.

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I'd really like to know the answer to this question. And why is it not possible for the dummy to have transparent textures. We've seen that creatures can be translucent (oathbreakers, people in stealth). Why can't a static avatar be the same?

I fully understand that sometimes things are harder than they seem. But we are still customers and we have a right to ask as well as a right to question the reasoning behind "no".

I've heard the "there's not enough time" and "we have certain priorities" many times. What does it take to get things like this (and things like revelries, fixes to in-game chat, fixes to the LFF tool, kinship controls, etc.) to be of high enough priority that they get on the schedule?

Why don't we have surveys like the ones we had in beta (or the questions of the week that were going on a couple of months ago) asking what we would like to see?

-Forjo

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Originally Posted by arinthros

Yeah, that's the idea. Maybe not so detailed as an actual npc (like facial features and stuff).

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Of course. I'm surprised Floon didn't at least comment on that one.

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Originally Posted by delphinius81

Bingo. We all think we our ideas are far more important than they actually are, because well, it is our idea. As a developer, I never say 'it can't be done' or 'there is more important stuff to do,' even when I know right off the bat that I have no intention of thinking about the idea once I leave the room. But the idea is important to someone, and you want to make them feel that they matter. After all, what could be more important to that person than what they consider important? So, you say something nice and vague about investigating the possibility and see if it works with the rest of what is there. If it is feasible, you go back to the idea maker and get more detail. If not, you move on.

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Good post. Id also like to add: I think in part Devs do this to themselves. They claim they arent out of touch, but they dont take our feedback to heart when we do give it (yes, Im referencing the horse whistle again)... or if they do, they just shrug it off, only to find out we were right after all.
Or! In the case of Blizzard, they are 99% of the time silent. Players, especially the ones like me, who pay for these games out of their own paycheck, like to know that the company they are paying into is actually reading the forums, and checking out ideas. We as players do not have to give them ideas for free. In fact we are essentially paying them to post our ideas, since usually you cant even post in P2P games' forums without subscribing (understandably so).

So while I dont expect devs to be super active on the forums (its nice to see, believe me), because then you wonder what they are getting done with all this posting! But when I do see them replying to threads like this, I dont like seeing: Its a nice idea, but we dont want to try and implement it. We think we have better ideas.
And from a customer service stand point (I work in a nursing home, Its pretty much the same thing! lol), thats the wrong approach. Even if you have no intention of not looking into the matter, its sometimes better to lie about it. It sounds bad I know, but sometimes people would rather be lied to, than to be flat out told no.
Of course the kick in the pants here is that if you do tell them you could look into it, then some of these readers will take this as an explicit promise that it is a promised feature somewhere down the line when nothing of the like was said! And then they will whine and complain that no one ever got back to them on it...

Ok... I think Im done now. lol All that finally typed out, Floon I like you, but your bedside manner needs work. :P

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Originally Posted by KitsuneGirl

Ok... I think Im done now. lol All that finally typed out, Floon I like you, but your bedside manner needs work. :P

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Young lady, I am an expert on humans. Now pick a mouth, open it and say, "Blderfrtbxddfger."</zoidberg>

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Originally Posted by floon

Young lady, I am an expert on humans. Now pick a mouth, open it and say, "Blderfrtbxddfger."</zoidberg>

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xD You get brownie points for qouting Futurama. <3

One thing I could think of that we currently have that would be similar is Raemeneg's (sp?) armour. A Fornost boss if memory serves me. How different was making that from what making a static version of Rift gear would be?

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Originally Posted by arinthros

Yeah, that's the idea. Maybe not so detailed as an actual npc (like facial features and stuff).

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One of the problems with this as I understand it is that the NPCs are already incredibly simplified avatars. Facial features are not individually constructed like our characters, they're just texture maps. Clothes too. Look closely (zoom into first person view) and look at a player character and an NPC. They're just a texture mapped onto a walking mannequin already.

The reason for this is that our characters are incredibly data intensive. There's a whole lot of processing required to assemble all that junk we're wearing, and our facial expressions, and hair, etc... To put that kind of load on all the NPCs would make Bree, and Rivendell, and heck probably even Noglond, run about as fast as a Commodore 64.

In other words, an Armour stand "Dummy NPC" would have to be modelled on a character, not an NPC. Meaning server load, processing power, and a lot of development time to limit down all the things that the character can do.

As for the suggestions for a single static trophy mount version:

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Originally Posted by Neoglaurung

One thing I could think of that we currently have that would be similar is Raemeneg's (sp?) armour. A Fornost boss if memory serves me. How different was making that from what making a static version of Rift gear would be?

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First of all, there are different versions of Rift armour for every class. And then there are the Helegrod sets. Oh, and the Annuminas sets. And what about the people who ground Mordirith time and again to complete the Gath sets? And the... You see where I'm going with this? Oh, and weren't they dyeable? "Dangit, I traded in my cool looking Black armor and I got this lousy blue thing back!!!"

I'm not trying to make this into a slippery slope argument, but the thing is it's not as simple as you're all trying to make it out to be. For one thing, wearable/equippable items like armour and weapons are very different bits of code from a decorative housing item. Floon can't just photoshop the pieces together, take a snapshot, and say here you go. Stop trying to present it as a simple matter of minutes for him to just implement this and give you what you want. It is not that easy, and he's tried to explain that to you.

I really appreciate how much every would like some sort of memento of their Rift / Hele gear, but floon has already told you that this simply ain't gonna happen. There are far too few players who would gain too marginal a benefit to justify the very large effort it would require. Cost - benefit analysis has to be applied here. They have limited time and resources to apply to an unlimited wish list.

Would you rather be able to display your old Rift gear in your house, or have them finish up the artwork for the next set of raid gear that you'll be able to work on with Book 7 or 8?

As you continue to ask for this, ask yourselves what you're willing to forgo (and more importantly, what you're willing to ask the entire community to forgo) in the next release to make time for this development.

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Originally Posted by KitsuneGirl

Of course the kick in the pants here is that if you do tell them you could look into it, then some of these readers will take this as an explicit promise that it is a promised feature somewhere down the line when nothing of the like was said! And then they will whine and complain that no one ever got back to them on it...

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Which is why many devs don't bother to post. Why take the heat for trying to listen and give feedback when it will all be misinterpreted in the end? It's a very tricky balance between getting stuff done and keeping customer's happy. The biggest thing MMO devs seem to have issues with is realizing that once your MMO is shipped, it is no longer the developer's game. Once live, the customer is also a designer and needs to be listened to as though they are on the payroll. Most companies, including Turbine, get this.

But the process could be a hell of a lot more transparent. At some point, the health of the game and happy customers far outweighs a competitor stealing a half-idea and developing it first.

The devs here, that do post, are fairly open about what is going on. The problem is that some devs post far more than others. So while we almost always get a post from floon about something art/model related, other very important areas of the game go (seemingly) unnoticed - to the point where it is easy to wonder if anyone is listening to us until one day, there is this change in a book update that leaves people scratching their heads about why it was done in the way it was done.

Seriously, hire someone who's sole job is to sit in on design meetings, read forum posts, and give player ideas to those design meetings. Then that person goes back to the forums and asks questions and returns with more player feedback. Don't have devs wearing developer and community liason hats. Let them develop (unless they want to post, in which case awesome), and let the community design manager handle fleshing out player design ideas - whether they are feasible or not! At the very least, you get your customer base paying to develop your game designs. And the real bonus, those players that have some really, really good ideas can be potential beta testers or future hires.