I've never gotten why players who don't raid and players who don't PVP hate so much on players that do. Not every single second of dev time needs to be spent on just the things you enjoy.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianDavion
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I've never gotten why players who don't raid and players who don't PVP hate so much on players that do. Not every single second of dev time needs to be spent on just the things you enjoy.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianDavion
apologies for repeating myself, but i really would like an answer* to my question. i guess i should have posted this in one of the many 'Turbine does itemisation badly ever since MoM launch' threads, but it bears directly on the removal of Radiance.
Radiance was both a gate AND a reward for raiding. removing the gate is fine by me, but err, that has the side-effect of removing the reward. people generally don't like to work towards some reward only to be told later 'haha, we're going to make it worthless'. that *really does* generate ill-will.
the question i'd actually like an answer to then, is, what reward is being introduced, if any, to compensate people who are *losing* the rewards they worked towards?
* things that i don't consider to be answers, and why:
- 1. 'raid sets are good for some classes': and implicitly bad for others. raid groups full of minis and capts but lacking DPS or tanks, for example, are no fun and non-starters.
- 2. 'it will be item-shop gated'. sorry, but Turbine's business model simply doesn't work like that, and claiming that it doesn when there's simply no evidence that it does, doesn't consitute an answr. it constitutes dissatisfaction, which is legitimate, but i'm looking for an answer atm :) .
- 3. 'they got the reward for finishing the raid' or variants thereof. and here we get to the nub of the matter, Extrinsic vs Instrinsic rewards (sample explanation). finishing a raid, or any difficult content, requires a mix of intrinsic and extrinsic rewards. raid gear with radiance was a both intrinsic (look at me! i have BG armour) AND extrinsic (it made the character more effective in raids). removing the Rad makes it solely an instrinic reward - on par with the Bane of the Lieutenant title. removing the extrinsic reward (if i get this, i can perform better in this and other raids) means only people motivated by the intrinsic reward (new title! new horse! new cosmetic armour!) will be running these raids.
I would also like to know this as i am not sure if this new idea is goodQuote:
Originally Posted by fifenator09
hm so what now everyone can gets to BG fearless? hm another realistic feature goes away :/
exacly... just because he and others dont like pvmp or raids taht doesnt mean that raids and pvmp arent part of LotroQuote:
Originally Posted by lordjimdudkiewicz
If lotro didnt had raids and pvmp would be boring and with no challenge at all, really not challenge at all. and i will say it again , lotro without raids and pvmp would be boring and not challenging at all
But but... What about people who just wanna peek and see how it is? /sarcasm offQuote:
Originally Posted by Eric...
Seriously, which one of the two will we have?
1) face-roll raid so everyone can experiment success
or
2) Some challenge for a change of pace.
If you go 1, raiders will go ballistic...
If you go 2, casuals will go crazy...
Since casuals and store rule LOTRO...
I hope I'm wrong and we don't get another revamped school/library type raid... And get rid of making everything bartable or so easy obtainable (gear wise)...
RicardoFurriel
The most important factor besides raid difficulty is loot. I'm more worried about the rewards after how they botched up the Barad Guldur loot tables. Now that radiance is being removed, the artificial progress in armour sets will be gone too. Each new raid set will have to surpass the previous one stat-wise. I hope they manage to get that right as well.
Seriously?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapience
Wow, I'm impressed. That's honestly very good news.
Probably both, offset in time: aimed more at the raiders first, then made more accessible/broadly appealing later. They have a history of doing similar things, and I expect it will continue - instance clusters and raids are the most expensive content that they produce, and it's hard to justify doing much of that if a smallish percentage of players are the only ones who benefit from it over its entire existence. In fact, if they were to adopt that sort of "rework later" as an official policy for this sort of content, I'll bet you'd get to see more of it... it would get more mileage with players, and would therefore justify more investment.Quote:
Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel
Khafar
Err well there IS the current Deed mechanism. Want to do Sambrog? You CANT until youve done Thadur and the Maze. Want to do Thorog? You CANT until youve done the other Wings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapience
WHY is there a Deed? What purpose does it serve?
The peak of this games playerbase was The Rift. Gated ONLY by its difficulty. We used to have 3 teams going in there on a Friday Night. Now we cant even scrape together enough for one BG raid, cos people cant be bothered for the rubbish rewards or dont want to spend hours wiping.
Call me crazy, but this whole thing is happening because Turbine was actually listening to the players. Sure, it's taking them a while to change it after an extended period of unhappiness, but they're doing it and that's a plus for them in my book. Everything that they are talking about implementing over the next year is a direct result of player feedback. So I really do believe that they are going to do their best to make things work the way the players want it. And when you're designing raids of course you try to make your raiders happy while at the same time not excluding your casuals. That's a delicate balance. But it can be done.Quote:
Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel
Though I notice that you seem to equate casuals with people who just want to talk moonlit walks around the Watcher's den or something. (Nice little strawman you've got there.) When people talk about just wanting to be able to see it, they don't mean they want to be able to go in and have everything be ridiculously easy so they can get on with the sightseeing. What they mean is that they want to experience that part of Middle-earth as it is (danger included) maybe just once or twice for the adventure (or more if they find it enjoyably). It means they're not going to farm it for loot because loot isn't what they care about. The experience is what they care about.
The other thing that I've noticed when many, many players complain about raids and radiance is that they desperately want the raiding days of Helegrod and the Rift back. Now, I wasn't playing the game back then, so I don't know if it really was great or if people just look back with rose colored glasses, but from the things I have read and heard those raids were certainly a challenge strategy wise. They certainly seem like more interesting raids in my eyes at least. That's what most people seem to want back. And I'm sure Turbine is watching and knows this. I'm sure they're smart enough to figure out why people prefer the memory of SoA raids to the reality of Moria and Mirkwood raids. I'm sure they'll do everything in their power to implement end game content that players will enjoy. I know that they are working hard to make this a better game.
They can't please everyone, of course. And those few who aren't pleased and who feel personally insulted because Turbine didn't do exactly what they wanted will always be here crying on the forums. They'll just have to deal with it.
I repped you on this post. I think you state your opinions in a very concise and organized manner. /ApplauseQuote:
Originally Posted by Fionnuala
I hear your points and I agree with a lot of them. Rift and Hele were the best times in LOTRO not because there wasn't a gate but because the raid was fun, the encounters were absolutely great and the rewards were outstanding.
That's why people loved it. Now... Unless you were carried by your kin, a 2k minstrel wouldn't go into a Thaurlauch fight... or a 2.5k tank... So there was a gate, even though an artificial one. And boy, I pugged the heck out of the Rift, and if someone didn't have their virtues up, I wouldn't take him/her. Why? Because 1) to my eyes, the toon wasn't raid ready 2) the person behind the toon didn't put the time/effort to improve it and mostly important 3) that person could easily let the other 11 people down (imagine a LM who couldn't mezz on the Barz/Zurm waves...). And as a leader, the most frustrating thing was to justify to the other 11 people that toon X sucks. This same toon X is the one who wants to experiment content and doesn't care if they wipe the group or not. Because they just want to see how it is.
My biggest concerns are the frustration that will be around these forums if the encounters are too challenging. Not everyone has a perfect bow, or a perfect sword, or the perfect healing book. But there is also a lot of people who don't know/care about their gear/traits/skill and will feel they deserve the same treatment and will come here whine because the raid is too hard... And nerf we go...
Others have touched the subject: loot. Look at BO HM and BG. No rewards = people won't run content. Think about Dungeons in SoM. Great concept, that place must have taken months to conceive and look how many people have set foot in it... Why? At first, SH gave the same reward for 1/10 of the time... They took months to give it a bump on medallion reward but the damage was already done and no one cared anymore. And it's money thrown away.
Look at this SG joke fix. A year later they fix the exploit corner on Alagossir. And they put doors so people don't run all the way to Gorothul or share the fun to the 4th boss. All these things have been documented in betas and at release of new content. Things get fixed a year later when content is old and people are just waiting for new stuff to arrive. Think of DD and GS fixes...
Just do people who enjoy challenges a favor: don't give us another library/school face roll. All we ask.
With respect.
RicardoFurriel
If I had to guess, I'd say first age weapons will be the primary factor here. Another thing that would be appropriate as well imho would be non-LI crafted items which require instance drops (like Symbols of Celebrimbor for LI's) to make which are better than gear obtained in other ways. I'm sure there are plenty of other answers which aren't occurring to me as well. I don't think it's likely that there won't be tangible rewards from instances which are worth working toward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naesriel
If you are asking about the time you've already spent, you always take the risk that whenever any MMO's content is updated your gear might become irrelevant. When the level cap went up from 50 to 60, Rift gear (mostly) wasn't any good anymore either. That's just what happens in MMOs.
Absolutely. And I think that Turbine will understand that. They showed that they understand that radiance failed because it wasn't fun, interesting or rewarding. It was just an arbitrary stat to make you not arbitrarily die. It had nothing to do with your own skill or performance. I think Turbine has learned that lesson. They had a few of those Tell the Community Team threads dealing with itemization as well and the message was perfectly clear: itemization sucks. They've shown that they're listening about everything else we're asking for, even if it does take a while to implement the changes, I believe that they'll work to fix this too. They've spent the past year collecting data and now they're working in fixes. I have faith the coming year will show great improvement to the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel
The two aren't mutually exclusive. What I hope we'll see is scalable content and difficulty (we already have that mechanism) such that more difficult settings yield rewards faster, but the access is there for those who still want to earn the rewards. If you're practiced and proficient you will earn rewards faster. If you're not you can still go and practice but will earn rewards slower. This will also encourage players to eventually start setting difficulty higher as they practice so they can make fewer runs. In short, access for all that encourages players to set higher goals in a harder mode.Quote:
Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel
I'm also hoping with scalable content and skirmish technology we'll see multiple golden paths to achievement instead of the single predictable path we've seen for the last three and a half years.
I don't know the numbers in this game or in very many other games. But I do know that in WoW those top raids served only 4% of the player base.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianDavion
There was a time when developing game content was A LOT cheaper and a lot more casual; ie less an element of "big business" — by millions and millions of dollars. So having content that served a tiny percentage of your player base was not a big deal. But these days, content development costs so insanely much that developers want the resources developed to serve larger portions of their players. They are naturally more selective where they are spending money, and the most likely candidates for spending allotments are those features that are most used by the players.
It's not just that players are becoming largely casual that is causing a general "dumbing down" of content. It is also that it costs so much, and the money has to be spent where it will reap the most reward - ie, serve the larger body of players.
This trend is reflected in the lack of development in LOTRO PvMP, and now raids. And raids are a big ticket development item. Some of the most complex development in these games is the raid content. If you are going to tie up money and resources in developing raids, you want them to appeal to more players and be accessible to more players.
From my perspective, its a waste of time and money. I don't care whether the raids are gated or not. It doesn't matter how easy Turbine makes it to get into a raid, I will not likely ever be a raider in this game. Why not? Because I've had four years of playing in this game without raiding, and I am set up to do just fine without raiding. If this had been done long ago, I might be a generic raider. Maybe not. I don't really know. I just know that I am established as a non-raiding player and won't very likely change that just because they removed Radiance gating.
Still, I am happy for those who have been looking forward to this for so long. This is going to be your big chance, so don't pass it up. Because if the general populace doesn't show an increased interest in those raids, you will probably see them go bye-bye in terms of future development. Like I said, they are a big investment in time, money and resources. If the investment isn't going to provide quality amusement for a significant portion of the player base, you will see less and less of that development in the future.
This is my belief as well. I am SOoo hoping that the future will see a return of the "comparable incomparables" in terms of armor gear. The whole player economy was so much better during that era of the game, and it worked well for everyone. It didn't just serve the casuals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fionnuala
And during that era, my gear was just about as good as anyone else's in the game. I was able to do well on my own. But these days gear has hit rock-bottom in terms of quality and usefulness and I am significantly vulnerable. And hardly anyone crafts this gear because no one really wants it - not badly enough to pay what the crafter has to ask for it. It's just not really worth much. So crafting suffers across the board.
Hopefully that will change soon. I am hoping that when they dump Radiance, they will introduce some nice new sets that will have high appeal to the players, and that it will be craftable gear.
Really, this is the best way to put it. Hele, the Rift, and even the 6 mans like Annuminas, CD, Uru, etc. were just plain FUN. They were unique, had challenge (they weren't just arbitrary "kill lots of things until the last boss and waste hours of your day doing it"), and they connected with the world and LoTR in compelling ways. I still do these instances whenever I get a chance because they're FUN.Quote:
I hear your points and I agree with a lot of them. Rift and Hele were the best times in LOTRO not because there wasn't a gate but because the raid was fun, the encounters were absolutely great and the rewards were outstanding.
What Radiance does is remove the identity that instances and encounters have. It's not "hey, lets run this dungeon" it's "hey, lets grind for some Radiance". Even when an instance is fun, that takes a back seat to "How much Radiance do I get?". The focus needs to be taken back to entertainment. What good did the ultra focus on itemization do for MoM and Mirkwood?
Oh come on. Helegrod, Urugarth, Carn Dum, Haudh Valandil and Glinghant were ALWAYS "kill lots of things until the last boss and waste hours of your day doing it". Steamroll through tons of boring trash. Most of the bosses in these instances were unoriginal and straightforward as well. Rift is the only SoA instance that deserves all the praise it gets, the rest are grossly overrated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkheart06
I'm not saying post-MoM instances are all fantastic (they are not) but sometimes you need to take off the nostalgia googles.
CD and Uru are still fun to me, and everyone i group with..
Although in one sense "hey no fair I've been working for months getting radiance for most of my toons" even without radiance there is still the issue of stats and set bonuses.
A set of crafted level 58 or 60 gear is pretty good. Downside is no radiance. And/but they don't come with set bonuses. That is where the Rift gear started to make a difference over even the good level 48 crafted. That is where Annuminas gear starts to really shine. Where some Barad Guldur sets begin to make a big difference.
So my toons without radiance can start taking on Barad Guldur. But would I want to? Just as any of my level 50 toons could have gone into the Rift. We will still have good reasons to want armor sets with strong stats and/or set bonuses. For that extra oh yeah.
Are we talking about the same instances here?Quote:
Oh come on. Helegrod, Urugarth, Carn Dum, Haudh Valandil and Glinghant were ALWAYS "kill lots of things until the last boss and waste hours of your day doing it". Steamroll through tons of boring trash. Most of the bosses in these instances were unoriginal and straightforward as well. Rift is the only SoA instance that deserves all the praise it gets, the rest are grossly overrated.
CD and Uru all have completely unique boss encounters. Trash mobs are trash mobs now because we're all 15 levels higher than when that was considered endgame. Both CD and Uru required CC, proper off tanking, and group cooperation, even before the boss fights. All three Annuminas instances had unique puzzles vital to completing them.
The BG armor doesn't have the extra oh yeah when compared to the Watcher, DN, or Annuminas and Hele sets, at least for some classes. The stats and/or set bonuses need to be reevaluated.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthKeryx
Fixed for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by aleczander
This goes back to the same GS and DD and SG fixes... One year later they decide to fix it... According to Sapience, they do listen to player feedback... Right... Since SoM beta (Summer 2009?) that thousands of posts and threads were created alerting for the weakness of the armour sets, laughable set bonuses and lack of reason to equip it outside of the raid...
Please, don't waste time and money. Whatever you decide to create, make sure it's an improvement to our characters and it's something people will go after. Don't bother fixing it. The same way Turbine is saying "my bad, radiance was a bad idea and we're going back to what we used to have in SoA", they shouldn't have a problem assuming BG in particular and SoM in general was a failure end-game wise.
And everyone would be happy. Like me, there are others who despite ranting often, aren't quite ready to stop believing that you can create something that is right on the money in terms of fun, challenge and reward. The recent history does not support the fact Turbine cares that much for vets and raiders, but there's hope, even if a little one.
So... Get it right and people will applaud . :)
u couldn't just repeated this from earlier in thread, lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel
The biggest problem with end-game gear (besides rad) is the inconsistent variance in stats.
From SoA 50 gear (including rift, hele, annuminas) to moria 50-55 gear, there is an unecessary jump in stats. My alts bypassed SoA content, not because i couldn't get groups (i could), but because the gear rewards in moria were just clearly superior.
Then, Mirkwood came out, Turbine realized they went to far "upwards" with gear stats in moria, and so "nerfed" Mirkwood gear so that it was only marginally better than 60 gear, or sometimes even an unappealing side-grade.
The gear stat numbers need to find the "curve" again.
This thread (all 5 pages and 74 posts...) is not all I have in my mind... Sorry if I disappointed you :)Quote:
Originally Posted by aleczander