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Well, that's not aggro gen, that's aggro management, isn't it? You want to generate more in 10s than others do in 5 minutes? You say you don't want threat tools, just gen, but this kind of threat gen would let a tank build threat for half a minute and then go afk.
If you want to recover from a death , we need threat tools, not just generation. I don't see a way around it.
Please don't touch warden shield line. We've got an entire trait line just sitting there, doing absolutely nothing(fist). Even amongst the bad, terrible, horrible wardens i've seen, none of them go fist line. Fix warden raid tanking with the fist line. Don't touch my shield line.Quote:
1. Decrease warden's ability to solo everything. Might not be desired by some people
2. Provide wardens with more critical defenses, or a way to slot more mitigations.
Give us an engage with the capstone and mits/crit defences with the traits/set bonuses or something. I dunno, but there is no need to nerf warden's awesomeness solo/3man/6man just for raid performance, when we have an entire trait line we could devote to it.
Buff spear line, but we already have giant power costs. I could see a somewhat increase in power costs, but nothing huge.Quote:
3. Develop a true DPS line with big power costs, but more DPS either through +damage or ability to slot a 2-hander, maybe a 2-Hand Warden's Spear. I can just see a gnarly warden with this massive 2-h spear raging around lol.
How would making our leeches % based instead of fixed value lead to what you describe? And why does that reservation not apply to champs? And why do you feel the need to make up numbers like "10 sec" of "5 min" as if i mentioned them?Quote:
Originally Posted by geoboy
What i say is we should have the ability to gain threat in a reasonable amount of time if we put our minds to it regardless of the situation, since it is balanced by our inability to deal with to much threat. Yeah, sure its awesome to be able to pull and hold a bunch of mobs, though what if its 1-2 mobs to much or a mob that was supposed to be offtanked way over there? We die, no way around since we have no emergency buttons.
I call it raw threat because there is no finesse to it, if there is a situation where three npcs(boss with two powerful adds or something) need to be tanked i can't just say i want the threat of that hunter from his mob, or say i want this mob to attack me for x seconds now, i won't even be able to quickly save another tank that got a unlucky stun or something with a quick buttonpress, i can only say threat! likely causing the encounter to break one way or another if not careful, which again brings skill into the discussion.
If you give us sufficient sustained threat generation for us to be able to catch up on aggro quickly and efficiently after a death or something, it will by nature make holding aggro a LOT easier than it is(and should be).
I cannot think of any situations this would be a problem for, in which it wouldn't already be a problem(hitting mobs with threat that we shouldn't be). For things like aggro swapping on bosses, guards could just engage+gt and pull it off anyway.Quote:
What i say is we should have the ability to gain threat in a reasonable amount of time if we put our minds to it regardless of the situation, since it is balanced by our inability to deal with to much threat. Yeah, sure its awesome to be able to pull and hold a bunch of mobs, though what if its 1-2 mobs to much or a mob that was supposed to be offtanked way over there? We die, no way around since we have no emergency buttons.
Aggro leeches are aggro management, not gen. You're moving it around, not making more. I'm confused as to how you propose the ability to recover aggro after death without stealing/copying/altering the threat of others. Where is the threat coming from? A huge threat skill? How do you balance that, when (as a warden), you can just spam it all you want? (please no more 1 - button wonders like never surrender, tyvm)
Wardens are in a pretty good place with our shield and spear trait lines, and I don't see a huge need to buff/nerf either.
Parsers' E-Peen demands a spear line buff.Quote:
Wardens are in a pretty good place with our shield and spear trait lines, and I don't see a huge need to buff/nerf either.
1. Leeches are not management since they are oneway +relative threat. A leech that detracts 200 threat from someone and adds 200 to you is mechanically in every way, shape and form inferior to a skill that simply adds 400 threat to you. It has the huge drawbacks of not working raidwide and requirering threat on that other player you want to leech from.Quote:
Originally Posted by geoboy
2. Stealing aggro from others is perfectly fine, im actually proposing exactly that. For example stealing 5-10% threat from each FS member would give you a nice amount of threat. If you think thats imbalanced, what do you think a champs rising ire does? And that one takes up alot less power and time in a rotation.
3. We are not in a good place. Seriously. If we are in a good place i don't want to see what the bad places look like. Please explain real slowly to me why a Captain, Champion, Minstrel, Hunter or RK needed to be made more attractive for groups while we apparently already are in a "pretty good place".
Things I've read here and there in the forums that I remember thinking were good ideas:
I like the idea of having masteries as skills, and then Make mastery class traits reduce the cooldown on each mastery.
Have Way of the Warden affected by legacies.
Rework Legacies to affect full lines including builders - ie -Power cost fist gambits also reduces any fist builder or fist mastery in addition to the gambit. Or +damage legacy affects more than one gambit. Or +threat transfers on all transfers or all threat skills.
Rework trait lines to promote different play styles.
Spear = dps but severely hinder survivability and threat (shouldn't tank in this line)
Shield = survivability - probably about right b/c dps is weak may be decrease threat (can tank in line - probably best for pugs or solo)
Fist = tanking - lots of threat - lots of defense - up incoming healing - crit/tac defense - hinder dps - and self heals (optimal tanking line)
I currently don't really use fist line and it seems to be going in the direction that spear tanking is the way to go. On my LM red = awesome dps, blue = survivability, yellow = raid build for most part I think our lines need reworked.
Never Surrender - never used probably terrible - rework
Defiant Challenge - I use wish it was a little more useful by reducing animation or start threat at the beginning of the animation and increase duration - increase power cost if spamming is an issue. Add threat transfer to it may be.
Dance of War - reduce animation or change where transfer occurs in animation
Add threat to Javelins and more Jav skills and/or add an interrupt to one of them. I love the play style of the warden and generally think they can tank well, but a few tweaks here and there could go a long ways to making others believe in the class.
Good to know...I guess engage is not threat management either until at lvl 75 guards receive the "anti-engage" skill...boy are you guys gonna be pissed when we get that!Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketeer8015
Glad to see that the self-haters still perceive being "better" than guards as the primary goal and don't yet acknowledge the true threat that may be coming down the pike from champs here. If guards are worried...by your own measure you ought to be peeing your pants.
Oysten...I do think the dev's made a bad choice to make duplicate main tank classes for such a limited role, where the content does not give us much meat to be competing over...but don't begrudge your existence at all, like your class and and have supported things to make you more viable in raids like crit defense and yet support the full overhaul of that NS abomination. Please don't look to me as an enemy at this late date as I have stood beside you so many times against those that likely just can't make the most of your class so seek to become guards. My message to wardens is that the champ horde is knocking at our (tanks) doors again...be afraid!
Unfortunate - always thought it was guards and wardens competing for MT spots.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaestro
Then you are going to have an issue with Turbines way of tanking. They believe that DPS must slow way down to allow a tank to have agro. I often have to explain to friends that we fight tooth and nail here in Lotro as tanks to maintain Agro on quick kills. They ask me why I play.....:)Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketeer8015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaestro
You notice the part that is not relative to your fellows? That skill directly modifies your position on the aggro table in a consistent way. You "manage" your aggro.Quote:
You are able to press your opponent, forcing them to slow down and concentrate on defending themselves. This skill makes you the target's most threatening opponent.
A leech might change your placement on the aggro table, or it might not, depending on how fast your fellows generate threat/how big their lead is. Your NOT managing your aggro, your simply increasing it relatively to others. Its a different mechanic for the same thing as damage or +threat skills, slowly and unpredictably moving around on the aggrotable.
And no, we won't be pissed. Champs already have that skill and its fine.
Would be kind of novel though to have a Tank with emergency skills and highest mitigation, a tank with highest damage and no power issues and a Tank where other people don't have to hold back and that can mitigate waves well. It would almost be as if there are pronounced niches for the tankclasses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Artanisul
But yeah i get it, Wardens are apparently just supposed to be the Tanks you take if no Guard is around or if you want to do Barrow Downs skirmish Benny Hill style.
Also, no offense to some posters here, but i find guardians arguing against any kind of actually worthwhile tanking buffs for wardens to be a fairly amusing attempt at insulting the devs intelligence. I mean could it be, purely hypothetically speaking of course, that you have a conflict of interests here and are not that much invested in making wardens as accepted as guardians are?
This pretty much describes the nightmare of what might be made of glory champs dual wielding if this goes through as I expect. Guards and wards will both suffer.Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketeer8015
You say this yet admit yourself that even spear traited, warden dps is "middling". You want middling dps for a secondary role?Quote:
Originally Posted by geoboy
See, I don't have a problem with 3 tank classes as it opens up a variety of play for people. I tried a guard before a warden and just plain didn't care for the play style, so if it weren't for wardens I wouldn't be playing a tank class in this game. What I do have a problem with is the imbalance between guards and wards at the raid level and what looks like an imbalance in waiting with the new champ changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaestro
You do realize that it really is going to take more than crit defense and a fixed NS to really put guardians and wardens on equal ground don't you? That doesn't mean we need pledge and engage clones but we definitely need one or two true OS skills for when the isht hits the fan.
I love my champ, I really look forward to seeing what actually changes with glory. I just don't want those changes to be so extreme that the other two tank classes get snubbed. As it stands now I feel no competition with champs on my server when it comes to tanking, no matter what people have been saying on the forums about fervour tanking this and that.
I generally don't get to MT squat anymore. Part of it is that I'm tired of the complaints that I take more damage, another part is that the mechanics of perceived threat for threat swapping are basically BS. Basically, the longer a fight goes, the harder it is to swap aggro with a guard that is wearing a high +perceived belt, regardless of whether they are smart enough to swap threat stance on/off. And all of the new OD content penalizes your raid for taking too long to swap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysterion
Hell, I'm lucky they let me come along in the raids anymore. I really don't do anything that a champ couldn't do at this point.
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Originally Posted by horus418
I agree that at present tanking is in a decent place compared to "where" it was in Moria...and it was champ dps commingled with adequate survivability that had "true tanking" in a very rough spot. That same combo is really what is being proposed again, when you boil the details away and look at the overall indicated direction (of which actual details we have none of anyway...but the "how" of it won't make any difference...it is the stated end result which previously was a great problem).
Some hold out hope for enormous compensatory buffs to "main tanks" ...and say this concern is too alarmist atm. Global warming is real.
Meh. I don't think we can cry wolf just yet. I think it's important that Wardens and Guards get at least a sneak peek overview of his perceived direction at this point, don't get me wrong, but I'm not ready to sound the (potentially false) alarm just because he's saying shing-shing champs should have more reasons to shing-shing in other stances than fervour.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaestro
This, for the most part. I think it's possible to make gambits that would help out with our issues, you just need to either tie a penalty to them so they can't be spammed for very long or put in a diminishing return for spamming them.Quote:
Originally Posted by horus418
For example: maybe for DC, it could be somwhat spammable (less animation and/or starting the force-taunt at the beginning of the animation). Make it so if you use it again in the next 20 seconds it has double power cost, then x4 if you use it again within 20 seconds, x6 if you use it again in 20 seconds etc. That way, you CAN spam it in an emergency, but it will cost you just about all your power to be able to force everything for that long.
Another example would be maybe a gambit that increases evade by 15% for 5-10 seconds but disarms you, silences you, makes you unable to produce additional threat or even reduces your threat over time. You can reduce your incoming damage for a short while via evasion, but you can't build more threat so you need to have the boss completely locked down in order to take this benefit. (the reduced threat thing would be great for tank-swapping/dps builds as well)
just a few ideas on how to keep the gambit system while still giving us a few skills to help us in tight spots.
(I'd like to keep this about what wardens need instead of about what is going on with champs, going to leave that to the champ thread)
I think the fact that you'll be spending your entire time spamming DC will be punishment enough :)Quote:
For example: maybe for DC, it could be somwhat spammable (less animation and/or starting the force-taunt at the beginning of the animation). Make it so if you use it again in the next 20 seconds it has double power cost, then x4 if you use it again within 20 seconds, x6 if you use it again in 20 seconds etc. That way, you CAN spam it in an emergency, but it will cost you just about all your power to be able to force everything for that long.
That is pretty creative and interesting...with built in constraints that address the potential problem of spammability for any type of gambit-based "pledge-type" of "oh crud" skill for wardens...combined also with a threat swap nod. Good thinking on that!Quote:
Originally Posted by striverg
Dance Dance Tankolution!Quote:
Originally Posted by Malephor
I wouldn't mind seeing a revamp on the trait line. Most of them don't hold much appeal to me, so I just grab the ones I like. And Skill and Power is pretty much a wasted trait. Past that, It would be interesting if the Stances were each tied a trait line, and received buffs based on investing in those traits. Recklessness with increased damage but lower defense. Conservation with greater power regen and defenses. And Determination could be more morale regen and threat bonuses.
It would be nice if WotW actually accounted for those various increases as well.
I wouldn't mind seeing Masteries moved to being trainable skills either. They're such a part of the end game Warden that they should just be integrated into the normal level progression.
As for new gambits. I would like to see an advance version of Dark Before Dawn. Maybe to let Wardens use it a higher morale. We may see some 6 length gambits in Isengard, so maybe it could be there.
Just some thoughts from a newbie Warden.
I'm wondering why we always have to look at Gambits for threat creation in mid fight.
I still think a simple solution would be a threat javelin. Put it on long cooldown. But make it so it does SFA damage but makes the mob force attack or even 'swaps the aggro with whoever it is attacking'.
Thus we could get our tank swap skills in the change places on the bosses raids, but also would be a good panic button for when the boss runs towards the minstrel.
Dave
because Wardens are built around Gambits and any way where we would preform our roles without using them would go against the class design.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aydee
people need to stop asking for one-button skills, we're not going to get them and if we do I think NS is a prime example of what we'd end up with.