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Re: AW: Re: How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?
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Originally Posted by
Aloro
No more so than Morale is a soft gate, or Power, or ICPR. You need all of these at decent levels to complete pretty much anything remotely challenging in this game. Calling Finesse a "gate" of any sort is honestly misleading.
If you're a Hunter and you use bow-chants to reduce your target's ability to mitigate damage, or if you're an RK with a chisel that adds to your penetration, then you're already using something that is functionally identical to Finesse. Hunters with good bow-chants and RKs with good chisels do more damage. We don't however collectively fret over this; it's just a stat that good players try to keep high. That's all.
Like I said earlier, using that flawed analogy is equivalent to claiming a Character is a gate to the game.
I've never claimed Finesse was like Radiance, it's clearly not the same. I AM saying it is a soft gate making it a requirement to have in order to complete the tougher end game challenges. Do you need Finesse to complete a Tier 2 solo skirmish? No, it won't help you there at all, but all your other Stats and gear are pretty necessary to successfully complete a Tier 2 Skirmish..
It's unlikely anyone is going to say something in this thread that will change my opinion on this and the flip side of that is most likely true as well so I'll leave you all to carry on the debate...
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Re: How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?
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Originally Posted by
cossieuk
Could you run the Rift with Fem armour, and a level 40 weapon, and your virtues at 4-5, maybe but with a lot of difficultly.
I can't speak for other classes, but I'd bet a properly built and played hunter wearing Garb of the Woods and wielding Tongannel's Joy would have stacked up rather well in the Rift. Certainly better than anyone actually using the Rift bow.
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Re: AW: Re: How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?
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Originally Posted by
Mark_J
I'll try to state this as simply as possible. Finesse is a soft gate that will be required to complete the end game instances, the mobs will have it and you'll need to have it as well. It's not required or even necessary for normal gameplay such as questing (like ICPR would be). It's not a Stat like any other you have, it's a gate to allow you to complete the end game Instances.
To extrapolate your flawed analogies I could say a Character is is a gate to the entire game, if you don't have one you can't play! That makes about as much sense as claiming Finesse is just like any other Stat IMO...
Oh please man! All stats are basically a soft gate!
Try to main tank a Raid boss with c rappy gear, low armor, might and vitality! Good luck!
Try to main heal in an instance or Raid with c rappy gear and low will! Good luck!
Finesse is just like any other stat! Like people have been saying! And like the devs themselves have been saying!
Radiance was a "REAL" gate, as it locked you out by making you perma cower!
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Re: How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?
All I can say, it is about time Turbine listened to us. It has been a long battle to kill radiance and finally we beat it into their skull that the radiance system sucked out of this world. Radiance and Radiance gating killed so many good things about this game. In addition, radiance and radiance gating forced kins to break apart or players to move on to other kins. I know, I have witnessed it!
Let us see what they do with PvMP now. I really don't care if some of you do not like PvMP. I like PvMP, been creeping off and on since 2007, and since they have it, they should improve it and not do what governments usually do and make things worse.
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Re: AW: Re: How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?
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Originally Posted by
Mark_J
Like I said earlier, using that flawed analogy is equivalent to claiming a Character is a gate to the game.
You're still missing the basic point: there exist a lot of "soft gates" already in the game, if you want to use such a loose definition. So, ok, you need Finesse to defeat the new tough encounters. You also need Morale. You also need Power. You also need ICPR. You also need Armour. You also need b/p/e and physical and tactical mitigation. You need a decent offensive stat for whatever kind of damage you deal.
You CANNOT defeat encounters without all or most of the above, right now. You won't be able to defeat encounters without all of most of the above, when RoI ships.
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Re: How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?
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Originally Posted by
AnderlornLOTR
All I can say, it is about time Turbine listened to us. It has been a long battle to kill radiance and finally we beat it into their skull that the radiance system sucked out of this world. Radiance and Radiance gating killed so many good things about this game. In addition, radiance and radiance gating forced kins to break apart or players to move on to other kins. I know, I have witnessed it!
Let us see what they do with PvMP now. I really don't care if some of you do not like PvMP. I like PvMP, been creeping off and on since 2007, and since they have it, they should improve it and not do what governments usually do and make things worse.
One other thing Radiance did was create discussion amongst Turbine to offer it for sale in the Store. Who wants to bet we see Finesse in the Store?
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Re: How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?
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Originally Posted by
Mark_J
One other thing Radiance did was create discussion amongst Turbine to offer it for sale in the Store. Who wants to bet we see Finesse in the Store?
No need for them to do that. You can get good finesse without even trying. Almost everything I picked up had some on it. It is all over the place. Selling Finesse would be like selling the stat tomes. Only useful for those players wishing to push to the very limits. Now that the NDA has been lifted start looking around at the stuff that is getting posted about gear. You'll notice that finesse is nearly on all of them. If you're worried about not having enough for the raid, don't be there is finesse all over the place.
Also though you don't need it for most content that doesn't mean it isn't useful. I don't need maxed might now for most situations but it is still nice. Just like high might lets me just plough through most things so does high finesse. Like all the other stats and gear you won't notice you are lacking until you try to do the real hard stuff.
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Re: How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?
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Originally Posted by
Mark_J
One other thing Radiance did was create discussion amongst Turbine to offer it for sale in the Store. Who wants to bet we see Finesse in the Store?
Absolutely no argument there! At ridiculous prices no less; just like certain items in the auction hall.
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Re: How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?
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Originally Posted by
Mark_J
One other thing Radiance did was create discussion amongst Turbine to offer it for sale in the Store. Who wants to bet we see Finesse in the Store?
Or you that daft or what?
Radiance was only available on instance/raid gear and so hard locked instances based on amount of Radiance. I.e. like Tiered RAID's like in AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Rift, etc.
Finesse is just a newly introduced Stat that will be on "EVERY" piece of gear in RoI! Crafted, dropped, quests, instances.
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Re: How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?
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Originally Posted by
Mark_J
One other thing Radiance did was create discussion amongst Turbine to offer it for sale in the Store. Who wants to bet we see Finesse in the Store?
How do you know Turbine was discussing adding Radiance to the store? If you know something we don't I'm sure we would all appreciate the extra info.
Plus Radiance was around for only 6 months after they added the store. Seems like they were pretty set on getting rid of it by then.
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Re: How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?
I heard that I cannot join the big raids witl lvl 10. Thats ridiculous. Just another gate.
LOTG!!!
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Re: How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?
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How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?
At the risk of sounding like a sycophant:
Radiance was a stat that counteracted gloom found only in the Vile Maw, Dar Narbugud, and Barad Guldur. The radiance stat could only be found on armour pieces earned through repeatedly clearing dungeons and raids.
Finesse will be a stat the lowers the Block/Parry/Evade chance and Resistances of any enemy in the game. It will be found (supposedly) on armour pieces and jewelry, which can be obtained from landscape enemies, quest rewards, crafting, PvMP barters, dungeons, and raids.
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Re: How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?
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Originally Posted by
socom33
How do you know Turbine was discussing adding Radiance to the store?
They mentioned it as one of the solutions they had considered in the "We're removing Radiance from the game" announcement stuff. Not sure if it was a dev diary or not, but I think it was.
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Re: How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?
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Originally Posted by
Vikingen
Finesse comes on almost everything.
that to me is thew big differance, raidance basicly locked you into a certin set progression pattern, finess is something that sounds like it'll be on every gear, so you don't need to have completed "the dungeons of grindina" to do "the tower of phat loot"you could presumably do the tower of phat loot in crafted or random reward gear.
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Re: How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?
+rep to you.
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Originally Posted by
Raptor38
It works like the other stats. It gates in only that you want a certain level of that stat depending on your character.
Just like you wouldn't take a champ with might under 400 or a mini with low will, you aren't going to group with a player with zero finesse if their class uses that stat. My main is a Champ I already know I'll need to start looking for finesse along with my normal M/V/A. From the gear I've seen it is everywhere and on everything. If you need it you will not have to sacrifice your other stats for it. It does make life a lot easier. You're DPS shoots up when they aren't B/P/E your attacks any longer. Just a balancing act like the other stats.
Are you going to want it for raids and endgame content? Yes, certainly you will. Just like you want might or vitality or will. Too low and you won't be effective. How is that different than any other stat? This is nothing like radiance mainly because it isn't linked to certain gear. Everybody needed a certain amount of radiance not everybody needs finesse. There is never a set number you need to be at, and like the other stats you just need to get into a certain range to be effective.
Do you complain that you need to get gear with vitality on a guard, or that you need to get will on a minstrel? Just like there are a plethora of ways to get those stats at the number you need them there is a veritable zoo of ways to get finesse where you need it.
It gates you the same way that your other stats gate you. If I took my champ into BG with 400 might I wouldn't be very effective would I? Of course not because my class needs might. Is this a gate to me getting into the instance. No, I can get in and do it, and I will suck at it.
Radiance meant you could not even enter help even in a small way. Finesse just means you won't be a top contributor. It all depends on the people you play with whether you get into the instance. Me personally I'll take a guy with low finesse if I think the rest of us can make up for him.
excellent write-up. All the radiance 2.0 folks should read this. And then re-read it.
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Re: AW: Re: How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?
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Originally Posted by
Mark_J
Like I said earlier, using that flawed analogy is equivalent to claiming a Character is a gate to the game.
I've never claimed Finesse was like Radiance, it's clearly not the same. I AM saying it is a soft gate making it a requirement to have in order to complete the tougher end game challenges. Do you need Finesse to complete a Tier 2 solo skirmish? No, it won't help you there at all, but all your other Stats and gear are pretty necessary to successfully complete a Tier 2 Skirmish..
It's unlikely anyone is going to say something in this thread that will change my opinion on this and the flip side of that is most likely true as well so I'll leave you all to carry on the debate...
You need to go and read the definition of finesse again, because you don't appear to understand how it works.
From the Dev Diary:
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Originally Posted by Dev Diary
For all of those players who think the random number generator has it out for them this is the stat for you. Finesse is a ratings-based stat that will directly reduce the Resistance of monsters as well as their Block/Parry/Evade ratings. This stat will appear primarily on instance/raid/pvmp loot but there will be a few pieces available with Finesse from quests and crafting.
This new stat is a two sided weapon because monsters will have access to it also. Most landscape monsters won’t have much if any Finesse but expect high difficulty instance/raid Boss monsters to have quite a bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mark_J
Do you need Finesse to complete a Tier 2 solo skirmish? No, it won't help you there at all, but all your other Stats and gear are pretty necessary to successfully complete a Tier 2 Skirmish..
Finesse reduces enemy's avoidance and resistance, so yes finesse actually will help you in a Tier 2 solo skirmish. The mobs will block, parry, evade and resist your attacks less often.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mark_J
I'll try to state this as simply as possible. Finesse is a soft gate that will be required to complete the end game instances, the mobs will have it and you'll need to have it as well.
The mobs in instances/raids will have more finesse than landscape mobs. All this means is that you will avoid/resist their attacks less often, so you take more damage. Your finesse rating has no effect on theirs, or how much they reduce your stats by. You'll take the same damage if you have 0 finesse as if you had 10000 finesse.
All that your finesse affects is how often you will hit the enemy. Even if you have no finesse, you'll still hit them, just not as often.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mark_J
It's not required or even necessary for normal gameplay such as questing (like ICPR would be). It's not a Stat like any other you have, it's a gate to allow you to complete the end game Instances.
Its not required, but it will make it easier. Just like high offence, crit, avoidance, resistance, morale, power, anything else is not required for "normal gameplay".
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mark_J
To extrapolate your flawed analogies I could say a Character is is a gate to the entire game, if you don't have one you can't play! That makes about as much sense as claiming Finesse is just like any other Stat IMO...
It is the same as another stat, how about crit defence? If you don't have any of that, you're going to get critted much more often, but no one complains about how that's a gate. It works in the same way, reducing some of the enemy's stats. The only difference is that finesse affects more classes than just tanks.
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Re: How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?
I'll have to ask again.
If it is just another stat, why did Turbine invent it?
Who asked for this? What is so damn good about that new stat that it needed to be put in the game?
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Re: How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?
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Originally Posted by
Darroc
I'll have to ask again.
If it is just another stat, why did Turbine invent it?
Who asked for this? What is so damn good about that new stat that it needed to be put in the game?
This happens in a lot of MMO's that new stats are introduced with expansions to continue enabling character progression.
There comes a moment that you reach the limit of your current primary stats and then the easiest way is to add a new stat to the game, required for the new content.
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Re: How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?
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Originally Posted by
Darroc
I'll have to ask again.
If it is just another stat, why did Turbine invent it?
Who asked for this? What is so damn good about that new stat that it needed to be put in the game?
Our stats (mainly resistances and mitigations) need to go higher as we go higher in level but they must not go too high. Sure you can have caps on them but guess what? Caps are gone. Finesse is a way of assuring that a monster (or a player) with ridiculous amount of resistances can still be hit fairly often by those who should be hitting fairly often. Otherwise killing a single mob would take hours due to him avoiding 90% of our attacks.
At least that's my take on it.
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Re: How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?
Stat Caps are gone, yes. But BPE/resistance will still have a (raised) cap.
But even if that would be of importance, why not solely adjust the mobs BPE instead of putting Finesse on hundreds of items, balancing them with all possible encounters etc..*
The dev time put in there could have been of better use. Maybe for features that would make RoI worthy of an expansion...
There's got to be another reason.
*just assuming, I'm no dev and wouldn't want to be one
Quote:
This happens in a lot of MMO's that new stats are introduced with expansions to continue enabling character progression.
Please name a few. Just curious.
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Re: How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?
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Originally Posted by
Darroc
I'll have to ask again.
If it is just another stat, why did Turbine invent it?
Who asked for this? What is so damn good about that new stat that it needed to be put in the game?
Why not? They've invented new stats before, look at crit defence.
Both that and finesse allow Turbine to keep our stats limited while still allowing the appearance that they are improving. If you have 15% block at level 65, so you're at the cap, then when you level to 75 you need to increase your block, but you still only have 15%. If they increase or get rid of caps, then you can increase your block to 25% at level 75. If they give the monster 10% finesse, then you still block the monsters attacks 15% of the time, but you still feel as if your character has progressed rather than just staying the same.
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Re: How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?
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Originally Posted by
Amphoras
Why not? They've invented new stats before, look at crit defence.
Both that and finesse allow Turbine to keep our stats limited while still allowing the appearance that they are improving. If you have 15% block at level 65, so you're at the cap, then when you level to 75 you need to increase your block, but you still only have 15%. If they increase or get rid of caps, then you can increase your block to 25% at level 75. If they give the monster 10% finesse, then you still block the monsters attacks 15% of the time, but you still feel as if your character has progressed rather than just staying the same.
I understand. But why do I need finesse then?
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Re: How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?
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Originally Posted by
Darroc
I understand. But why do I need finesse then?
You will need it in raid and on some instance bosses (but it is not something which will prevent you from doing that instance or raid).
Stop crying about finesses!
It is v easy obtainable and you will just slot gear with more finesse when you're in raid.
Its not big deal and ppl crying that it is "new radiance" needs to see the doc. :cool:
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Re: How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?
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Originally Posted by
Jeronan
This happens in a lot of MMO's that new stats are introduced with expansions to continue enabling character progression..
I play 5 MMOs, I've not seen this at all before.
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Re: How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Darroc
Stat Caps are gone, yes. But BPE/resistance will still have a (raised) cap.
But even if that would be of importance, why not solely adjust the mobs BPE instead of putting Finesse on hundreds of items, balancing them with all possible encounters etc..*
The dev time put in there could have been of better use. Maybe for features that would make RoI worthy of an expansion...
There's got to be another reason.
*just assuming, I'm no dev and wouldn't want to be one
Please name a few. Just curious.
I have played EverQuest 2 for many years for example and new stats have been added with pretty much every expansion.
