But even more confusing is that it is still possible to get the old melee/ranged/tactical defence ratings from a few sources - I have some melee/ranged defence from the old pre LI revamp T8 relics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neumi
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But even more confusing is that it is still possible to get the old melee/ranged/tactical defence ratings from a few sources - I have some melee/ranged defence from the old pre LI revamp T8 relics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neumi
Yeah, on the one hand they say that they get rid of melee/ranged and on the other hand the values still show.
But then again these might just be some dummies, not meaning much.
Do you remember the attack speed relics?
If you own one, it shows in the melding panel to get higher tier relics (everything you ever had in your "pocket" after the new system launched shows there). But the value has no effect anymore. Still it would be possible to put one on a weapon, but it would be wasted.
I have seen similar behaviour of outdated stats in other MMOs. They show, but have no effect. In this case it might be different however.
Are you sure your T8 relics still have any effect on the defense?
It was nice to get a dev response, but I still think there is a bit of confusion, I agree with some other posters here that a dev diary or a list of examples would b e really helpful
Yep. Because at this point, no matter how "sure" someone is I'm not going to believe any data without a Blue name attached to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tolfast
I think I have an understanding that is accurate now, but I wouldn't bother sharing it, not without confirmation.
I say a list of incomming damage flow, and the outgoing damage flow for that matter too. And include Finesse in the examples as well. May as well lay it all out there so we understand.
At the risk of repeating myself, I think people are making something complicated out of what is a very straightforward system.
All skills (including effects) have the following components, only one from each:
Attack Source: Melee, Ranged, Tactical, Effect
Resistance Type: Fear, Wound, Disease, Poison, Cry, Song, Tactical, Physical, None
Damage Type: Physical=(Common, Beleriand, Westernesse, Ancient-Dwarf), Tactical=(Fire, Lightning, Frost, Acid, Shadow, Light)
The only thing that may be confusing is that the words Tactical and Physical unfortunately appear in several of those lists, but they have nothing to do with each other. It is a poor design choice from the devs, but it is not particularly complicated if you recognise that the three skill components listed above are not related in any way.
The Attack Source is how the skill is being applied to the target - that's it. It doesn't have anything to do with damage or resistance.
Resistance Type is purely the category used for resistance checks against that skill. Nothing else.
Damage Type is the type of damage the skill is trying to apply. Nothing to do with how it is applied or if it can be resisted.
There is no crossover or relationship between any of these categories. Tactical Damage mitigation does nothing to help you avoid Tactical Source attacks. Physical Mitigation does nothing to help you resist skills that have a Physical Resistance value. etc.
The defence chain checks are as follows, and I've separated it out a bit more to make the checks easier to understand:
1> Avoidance - checks if the target has avoided the incoming damage, tested against the Attack Source value of the skill. Finesse adjustments are made here, where the source entity's Finesse percentages are used to directly modify the target's Avoidance values prior to the tests being done. A success at this stage can result in either the attack being completely avoided, in which case no more of the defence chain is processed, or being partially mitigated through b/p/e partials, in which case the attack continues through the chain with the reduced damage value. The checks that are done are as follows:
Melee Source: Miss, Block/Parry/Evade (and partials)
Ranged Source: Miss, Block/Parry/Evade (and partials)
Tactical Source: Miss
Effect Source: (none)
2> Resistance - checks if the target has resisted the attack, testing the Resistance Type of the skill against the Resistance value of the target. Skills that have no Resistance value automatically fail this test and are passed through - an example are most fighter skills, which cannot be resisted. Finesse adjustments are made here, where the source entity's Finesse percentages are used to directly modify the target's Resistance values prior to the tests being done. At this point, the only result is either a success, in which case no more of the defence chain is processed, or a failure, in which case it continues down the chain.
3> Source Mitigation - reduces damage based on the Attack Source value, tested against the relevent Damage Source value of the target. So a skill with Melee Attack Source is reduced by the target's Melee Source mitigation value. Since this is a percentage reduction, the result from this step is to always continune processing further down the chain.
4> Damage Type Mitigation - reduces damage based on the Damage Type value of the attack, tested against the relevant Damge Type mitigation value of the target. The categories Physical and Tactical that group together certain mitigations are for representative convenience only. Skills themselves will never have a raw "Physical" or "Tactical" damage type - they always use one of the sub-types within those categories, such as Common or Fire etc. Since this is a percentage reduction, the result form this step is to always apply whatever damage is remaining from the input value to the target. In other words, after this step you'll see a number fly off your head :)
I think the question / confusion here is where does it get the source mitigation stat from......Quote:
Originally Posted by Alias86
So if you are hit with a melee attack of fire type.
Does it get the source mitigation percentage from physical mitigation and then the type mitigation from tactical. - this imo opinion would be the one that makes sense (from a pure reading point of view), but I fear this is not the case.
Because all the old melee defence traits / items have gone. (which is where the source mitigation used to be).
No, the number you see for Physical Mitigation and Tactical Mitigation is purely a base number for contributing to the sub-types such as Common, Fire, Lightniing etc. So you have a base Physical Migitation, which contributes 100% of it's value to the specific sub-types such as Common, Beleriand etc. Then any specific damage type bonuses are added onto the specific sub-types. The mitigation check is done against the specific damage type, not Physical etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tolfast
Source Mitigation is purely that - mitigation against a specific source of damage, it has nothing to do with the type of damage being applied, which is the next mitigation step in the chain.
The fact that you have seen Melee mitigation come down has been compensated for by the contribution of armour to Physical and Tactical Mitigation being raised. So where previously I had 15% melee mitigation on my guard, I now have roughly 15% more Tacticial Mitigation and Physical Mitigation to compensate (i.e. nearly 70% Physical, and a base 45% Tactical prior to any specific armour mitigations to Fire etc). So the end result is that I take quite a bit less damage than before, and I don't have to spread it across damage source types, just damage types itself.
From reading this thread, its looking like it boils down to:
Physical Mitigation = common damage (+ beleriand, westernesse etc)
Tactical Mitigation = everything else
Basically, ignore absolutely everything else you know, you will now only mitigate through BPE (first) then physical/tactical mitigation depending on the damage type.
From a freep point of view, this means stacking physical for leveling and easy instances, and stacking tactical for raiding and pvp. Physical will be useless for pvp.
Next step then, just how much does physical mitigation traits contribute to end physical mitigation? I currently use innocense trait 99% of the time, but if armour is the major contributor then innocense can be flat out ditched.
I doubt that we'll ever see anything more explicit about how the system works than what little bits we've already received from Graalx2 in this thread.
Way back in early days (and those of you who have been here since The Beginning and before will surely remember this), the mood was quite clear that the developers wanted to give us a combat system that had to be learned by feel, rather than by precise calculation. There was also an implication that there would be more than one "right answer" to the question of how to set up your character's combat stats. Early on, the Character panel provided almost no useful information whatsoever about how the 5 main stats and the various benefits conferred by Virtues and gear worked together to define your character's combat profile.
I think a lot of this mood is still around, and in fact this recent round of changes may signal a concerted effort to get back to a time when it wasn't really practical (or even possible) to sit down with a spreadsheet and a slide-rule and figure out the "perfect" build.
Blowing the lid off the stat caps and other hard caps; consolidating (or simply obfuscating) many of the defense, resistance and mitigation stats; changing how Virtues and gear (including relics) affect the overall combat profile; and giving oblique answers to straight questions all serve to keep us guessing, and learning by feel in the absence of reliable data.
Personally, I think that's fantastic. It keeps the game fresh, and keeps us as players interested. I love the fact that every year or so, Turbine does something that pulls the rug of complacency out from under us, and forces us back to the drawing board to think about it all over again. It's impossible for anyone to "master" the game, because the rules are always changing. And of course, nothing will stop the mathematical wizards among us (and there are quite a few) from cracking the code eventually through brute force data gathering and arithmetical gymnastics that, applied in the Real World, would probably get them paid handsomely.
Speaking of feel, I asked my kinmates (most of whom pay no attention to forums or dev diaries, and thus were blissfully unaware that any changes had been made at all) how they felt about their characters' combat performance since the expansion. They all raved about how much more powerful they felt, and how it seemed they were doing more damage while taking less, at least in the non-raid PvE world. This was coming from folks who were already L67-69, but were still using most of their pre-RoI gear. So for whatever that's worth, the "man on the street" seems to be okay with the changes.
This ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifern
I think this nails it on the head.
Personally I *like* the new system. I take less damage from Tactical attacks.
Sure I slotted some traits and got my tact mitigation to ~40% (easy to do IMO) I still retain ~64% Physical Mit and B/P/E ratings. Went into DD to test (Since all mobs in there do Shadow damage) and I took less damage.
Seems like a *win* to me /shrug.
Not having to slot traits that are specific (ie shadow resist) and instead are broad ranging (Tactical) made the system a little easier IMO. Sure its a balancing act for a tank.
The way I see it .. all it means to us is there are two *types* of attacks. Those we can B/P/E and those we cant. And two types of damage, those that are checked Vs Physical mit and those checked against Tactical Mit.
Since I've yet to see a non-BPE common damage source (spell) other than the *dont-stand-in-bad-stuff* type, tactical Mit is indeed the better investment for a tank (since I B/P/E common attacks)
So there is still no answer to the question where the source migitation comes from.
In the past we had ranged and melee migitation which according to thedev diaries have been changed to physical migitation.
According to the dev it does "more". But what does "more" mean if in fact it only applies to physical damage types now leaving one unprotected against melee and ranged tactical attacks?
My char still has a lot of ranged and melee defense. Where does source migitation come from if not from physical migitaion?
Innocence, as a primary mitigation virtue, alone is about 3.5% Physical Mitigation at L65.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifern
Physical Mitigation virtues, Rank 12: (2 at each tier) @L65
Primary = +648, ~3.5% each
Secondary = +388.8, ~2% each
Tertiary = +216, ~1% each
If you had all 5 Virtues traited for Physical Mitigation; two primary, two secondary, and one tertiary, you'd have +2289.6 or about 12% (@L65) physical damage mitigation.
Tactical Mitigation virtues, Rank 12: (also 2 at each tier) @L65
Primary = +486, ~3.5% each
Secondary = +292, ~2% each
Tertiary = +162, ~1% each
If you had all 5 Virtues traited for Tactical Mitigation two primary, two secondary, and one tertiary, you'd have +1718 or about 12% (@L65) tactical damage mitigation.
Zeal, Discipline, Charity, Innocence, Compassion - for Landscape
Zeal, Discipline, Honour, Fidelity, Tolerance - for Raiding/Moors/Instance
*However, the two secondary Tactical virtues are Mercy and Honour which I have not ranked and cannot slot at this time.
Saw this on my Captain as well. It's coming from previously slotted, unchanged runes on your legendaries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neumi
Thread summary for dummies:
Same LM/Burg/etc skills skill reduce dmg as before, eg: fire lore vs melee, etc.
Mittigating dmg recieved:
Once w/e dmg actually hits you no matter how it got there, Physical mitigation reduces Common, westrnese, dwarf, bel dmg ONLY. Tactial mitigation reduces FIRE/ACID/FROST/SHADOW dmg only.
Takeaway point: for raiding and pvp TACTICAL mitigation > Physical.
The major change is the Virtues. Basically they have been ...well kind-a removed.
If you know that these hit points and ICMR and ICPR are ALL amounts by THE MINUTE then it's pretty simple. In fact most of you have already stated whats going on here but I'm guessing addiction has given a lot of us selective hearing.
First off figure what these amounts come to on these virtues. At the gob camp in N. Downs I had to kill 180 gobs to get a virtue increase of 25 hit points. If a paulse is 3 sec. take 20 into that 25 hitpoints, and thats how much regen I get every 3 sec.'s. Comes to 1.25 hp's per 3 sec's or .416666 per sec..
I've played these games since 1999 and I can tell you that is NOTHING! period!
They only have the value of the "Resistance" now and we find that too is a miss because half of it doesn't do a lot, (physical). LOL that statement in itself is funny as H because this game was started as only "physical" characters with no casters at all. By the way...I'm not running out there chasing Virtues anymore thats for sure, not for less than 1/2 a hit point per sec..lmao. Like I said the Virtues are basically gone.
You all got it right anyway....this is confusing and that was on purpose. You guys call yourselves gamers and you can't spot a shock and awe program?
Way back this was planned when they went F2P. The first few months is when everyone spends their money in a game then when school is back in it's "Take back time". It's the rage in games now don't ya know. Wow did it just months ago yet for some reason we can't see it. Almost exactly... forcing us into one tree verses 3 trees...anyone from Cata sound alike?
Guys...give it up...they planned the confusion otherwise there wouldn't be three terms for "Tactical"!!! They are NOT that bad at this...it was purposefully done. It is only intended to soften the blow of lost sub's after the take back. They expect to lose some of you in fact more than likely want to. The big moneys over so trimming the employee's is coming too.
Oh well, it worked..I'm paying one more month today just to see how it pans out but to be real...I already know.
Lol, I do know that I will wait a bit longer before buying virtues (I finished capping a couple off the Shelf at Store, while Store was feeling generous and On-saley with them) when they're planning on switching them up in short order.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiv88
Otherwise, I'm enjoying RoI and will pick up the virtues for which I failed to foresee the bait-and-switch along the way, or go on yet another Critter X genocide pass through the Misties...for Mercy's sake and because of my high level of Idealism, of course :).
Case in point...see above
Well, those defenses are now also gone, without changing the weapon No idea why they were displayed still at my last login.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad_Bombardier
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/8371/dmgmit.png
Put together a little chart to clear up what confusion seems to remain.
The major nerf here (that many people missed) is that there was alot of gear that had Melee Defense on it (Sailor's Charm, Sup Loth Heavy Shield, Heroic Nobles Heavy Shield, etc) that used to have Melee Defense on it but now has Physical Mitigation. This is going to leave people much more exposed to Melee Tactical attacks. Thankfully Guardians now get a heaping dose of Tactical Mitigation form Ward, but its not a heck of a lot, especially compared to our physical mitigation.
As far as I can tell, Melee/Ranged/Tactical Defense (that is, source mitigation) only comes from a few LM skills and LI Class items.
Question for a dev: Do Tactical Physical attacks even exist? Are there other ways to get Source Mitigation from gear that we havent discovered yet (since we can no longer get it from Virtues or Relics)?
If I take my level 65 numbers pre-launch, with my guard, I previously had a melee defence of 15%. My tactical mitigation for non-specialised sources (i.e. not wearing armour or traiting to cover it) was around 30%. Post-launch, I had a base Tactical mitigation of 45%, before using any specialised armour. So it's not a nerf - it is actually much better since it now covers non-melee sources as well. Throw on specific mitigation armour and the Ward bonus, and specific mitigations are around 52%. Pretty good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seedly
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad_Bombardier
Just double checked my Captain to confirm. I'm not sure where your bonuses are coming from. But, I have old runes (never cashed them out) with old defence ratings still on them and my Emblem has the +melee defence scroll which was not unchanged. In total, they grant 1200 melee, 600 ranged, and 1000 tactical defences for my Cappy. I have no idea if these are doing anything for me, or not. But, they will go away when I upgrade LIs at L75.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neumi
The new Migitations seem to be great for RKs (atm I'm migitating 27% common and 25% all tactical damage)
I'm looking forward to building a cool Moors RKs with capped Tactical Migitation
That´s a good change for Tactical Classes in the Moors in general..we'll have high Tactical Migitation (from Vitality) and Resistance Rating (from Will) and more then enough Physical Migitation (from Vita and Armour)
Might based DPS classes have higher Physical Migitation which is almost useless but far less Resistance Rating (which is useful against Spider Poison, BA Wounds etc.)
On the other hand my poor defiler and warg will get slaughtered due to needing both migitations (Tactical and Westernis/Beleriand)
Hold up now...Quote:
Originally Posted by Alias86
Resistance =/= Mitigation
Resistance is how we avoid tactical damage, that is...it is Block/Parry/Evade for tactical source (not type) damage.
Make sure your looking at the right stat because Resistances did get a huge boost (mostly due to combining down to one resistance type), so going up 15% in Tactical Resistance is not un-expected. Right now I have a 1300 point difference between Tactical and Physical Mitigation (Defense ratings are not on the mylotro page for whatever reason).
(sidebar: if your looking at my stats and wondering ### Im doing, I decided to play with the new gear and go for broke on Might. Its been an interesting ride so far, but Im still pretty weak due to taking off 2 of my heal-proc items and having a really sub-par belt).
I think the biggest problem here is the whole "Tactical Tactical" thing. I know that Tolkien very rarely used "magic" in his books (the word that is) and that Turbine has followed suit. Would it be possible to rename Tactical Source damage to "Cast" or "Spell" or something along those lines? I fell like it would cut the confusion that many people have in like 1/3.
And to the comment about this change being in no way a nerf, I disagree to a point. I used to be able to stack really deep against Melee common damage (Melee Physical under the new parlance), but now I can really only stack Physical and not Melee. Pre-patch Seedly had about 12% Melee Defense and 42% Common Defense for a total mitigation of ~51% (remember...you have to mitigate source and then the lower damage number is mitigated by type). Now I have zero Melee Defense, but can have 600 rating once I go get a new class item scroll, for maybe 3-5% melee mitigation, and 41% Physical mitigation. That is, Ive lost about 10% of my ability to mitigate 90% of the damage we receive in LOTRO (the vast majority of damage is still melee physical).
Now Im not level-capped yet...havent gotten good gear yet either...so Im reserving my judgement. However, at the moment, It feels like a nerf because my current mitigation against most of the damage Im taking is lower than it was pre-patch.
Why are we always talking about this in end game terms? Like by making the numbers larger it'll be better. Try taking it down to say level 30 where the masses are. These numbers look real bad down here folks.
Is end game the "Highest" population?
Because if it isn't then maybe we should hear from the Dev's in terms that really mean something to the MASSES!
Not the few.
In fact what would be the harm in letting us know the largest number of ppl are at what level? Whom exactly, or what level exactly is most effected by these changes?
It's always said these changes are for "end content" and it all "evens out" at end game but to be serious just how much of the REAL pop is up there.
Can I get an answer on that or a link to show how many 30's how many 40's ect.? I doubt it.