Elves.

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Originally Posted by KratosX

I really liked the idea of using the song of Arda

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I wish people wouldn't take that literally. It's written as a myth, for starters, and hence most likely it'd be just a story the Elves had to explain something that would be ineffable. Given what the Ainur were in their natural state, it wouldn't have been music as incarnate beings like Elves or Men would understand it (or could recreate in any way).

And besides, it wasn't even the Music that actually made the world, it was Eru.

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Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Or at least it would be if people remembered that the Dwarves kept their ancient language secret from outsiders, and that it was used for lore rather than for everyday use. Much the same goes for players who insist that their Elf speaks Quenya all the time (again - that had become a language for lore and poetry, not what they'd speak in for everyday purposes).

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I'd discuss how we use Neo-Khuzdul, but I'm afraid our kin has a "no outsiders" rule.

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Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

(The Great Music only created a 'blueprint' for the world, it was Eru's own power that made it real).

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I wish people wouldn't take that literally. It's written as a myth, for starters, and hence most likely it'd be just a story the Elves had to explain something that would be ineffable. Given what the Ainur were in their natural state, it wouldn't have been music as incarnate beings like Elves or Men would understand it (or could recreate in any way).

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I've always found it one of the most beautiful, and personally meaningful passages in Tolkien's works. If someone wants to weave it into their RP - most likely because they have also been inspired by it - then what comes is something I'd welcome.

Generally that's what I've found with Tolkien's works: they have an ineffable quality to spark a desire to create in those who read them. And yes, it's true, that we do not possess the art of Illúvatar; yet, like Aulë, a "lesser" creation by a lesser artist can still be a thing worthy of the spirit of the Author.

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Originally Posted by sarlinspellweaver

I've always found it one of the most beautiful, and personally meaningful passages in Tolkien's works. If someone wants to weave it into their RP - most likely because they have also been inspired by it - then what comes is something I'd welcome.

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Yes, it's so wonderful that people want to misappropriate it just to make their characters sound more interesting :-/

Besides which, I'd suggest that given that the Great Music was the creation of the Ainur (higher beings, one and all) and must have been mindblowingly complex to be what it was said to be (a description of all that was to come), then no limited, incarnate being (i.e. our characters) could possibly consciously grasp even the merest fraction of it. If there were echoes of the Music to be 'heard' in some way then perhaps that would explain where the gift of foresight came from, but thinking of it as a source of magical power would be to miss the point entirely.

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Generally that's what I've found with Tolkien's works: they have an ineffable quality to spark a desire to create in those who read them. And yes, it's true, that we do not possess the art of Illúvatar; yet, like Aulë, a "lesser" creation by a lesser artist can still be a thing worthy of the spirit of the Author.

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Not by carelessly dragging in ideas from elsewhere, it won't. The same stuff crops up time and time again: music being inherently magical, runes being inherently magical, the power of true names - none of which can be said to be inspired by Tolkien but are quite evidently from somewhere else instead. To truly get the 'spirit' here there's a certain need to adapt ideas to suit the setting, not to just plonk them down and then pretend they fit.

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Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Not by carelessly dragging in ideas from elsewhere, it won't. The same stuff crops up time and time again: music being inherently magical, runes being inherently magical, the power of true names - none of which can be said to be inspired by Tolkien but are quite evidently from somewhere else instead. To truly get the 'spirit' here there's a certain need to adapt ideas to suit the setting, not to just plonk them down and then pretend they fit.

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That's merely the way you've read the stories. The 'spirit' you speak of is merely something that you've observed. The way you've interpreted Tolkien's writings.

Others have observed and interpreted them other ways.

And all of those interpretations? They're opinions. Not facts, no matter how many times anyone tries to shout their own louder. The only one who could claim any facts was Tolkien. No one else.

So...

You're right. But so is everyone else here. And no one living has the right to start claiming their opinion's any more valid than another's.

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Originally Posted by Daeross

That's merely the way you've read the stories. The 'spirit' you speak of is merely something that you've observed. The way you've interpreted Tolkien's writings.

Others have observed and interpreted them other ways.

And all of those interpretations? They're opinions. Not facts, no matter how many times anyone tries to shout their own louder. The only one who could claim any facts was Tolkien. No one else.

So...

You're right. But so is everyone else here. And no one living has the right to start claiming their opinion's any more valid than another's.

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You seem to be one of these people who thinks simply having an opinion is all that matters, irrespective of both facts (if there are facts to be had) and the thinking behind it (or lack thereof). Sorry, no, that's one bit of modern nonsense I don't subscribe to. If an opinion doesn't stand up to scrutiny because someone's evidently misunderstood or is misapplying something then it has no claim to the sort of inherent validity you suggest.

In this case, for example, we are shown what the Great Music was: the theme for creation, not creation in itself. There was immense creativity embodied within it, but no power; that came later, from Iluvatar himself. So, for someone to suggest that borrowing a bit of the Music would let people work magic is way off the mark. In what way would that be 'right'? How can it be said to be in the spirit of things, to use something Tolkien wrote to try to explain magic in an entirely different way from how he did so himself? It's taking it out of context, which is definitely sufficient reason to call the validity of such an opinion into question. Music isn't shown to be inherently magical; song (quite specifically) was one way some characters used to express their own, innate 'magical' power. The song that's sung has magical effects because the singer has empowered it do so. That might seem a subtle distinction but it's an important one.

I'd say we have very different ideas about the meaning of "spirit".

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Originally Posted by sarlinspellweaver

I'd say we have very different ideas about the meaning of "spirit".

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I'll say... :)

Radh, time and again, you come into threads and start up the same discussion, usually resulting in the original subject being buried under irrelevancies.

As stated, the only one who could talk about facts instead of differences in opinion, was Tolkien. Only he could have told us what he meant with his word-choices.

The best the rest of us can do are educated guesses based on personal interpretation.

Which are all allowed.

And under which your latest falls, too.

No one's forcing you to RP along according to someone else's view; Turbine's own rules forbid such crude harassment, after all.

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Originally Posted by sarlinspellweaver

I'd say we have very different ideas about the meaning of "spirit".

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I'd say I actually have an idea, as opposed to something so nebulous it can accommodate almost anything and is hence effectively meaningless.

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Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

I'd say I actually have an idea, as opposed to something so nebulous it can accommodate almost anything and is hence effectively meaningless.

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If I thought you would actually engage with it, I'd give reply. As you will.

Guys, we were talking about ELVES, not rk and LM and Magicky stuf. GESSH

I feel obligated to defend Loremasters. As far as fireballs go, burning embers, if you look closely at the graphics, is acutally a flaming pinecone, much like Gandalf used in the books. You could also be referring to sticky gourd, which is essentially, well, a gourd, filled with oil or some other flammable material and then lit/thrown. Our lightning skill, Lightning Storm, can only be used when our target is covered with "Ancient Craft", so we use magnetism or something like that to attract the lightning to our target, we dont shoot it out of our fingers. We are the scientists, if you will, of LOTRO. Our deep understanding of the world gives us cool tricks like that (:

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Originally Posted by DarkIstar

I feel obligated to defend Loremasters. As far as fireballs go, burning embers, if you look closely at the graphics, is acutally a flaming pinecone, much like Gandalf used in the books. You could also be referring to sticky gourd, which is essentially, well, a gourd, filled with oil or some other flammable material and then lit/thrown. Our lightning skill, Lightning Storm, can only be used when our target is covered with "Ancient Craft", so we use magnetism or something like that to attract the lightning to our target, we dont shoot it out of our fingers. We are the scientists, if you will, of LOTRO. Our deep understanding of the world gives us cool tricks like that (:

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You're cherry-picking there and even then, the whole 'I shall cover you with iron filings and then you'll be sorry' thing with AC and the lightning is just a bit much, don't you think? Regardless, what about Cracked Earth, or Air-lore, or Frost-lore? Good luck with coming up with a 'pseudo-scientific' explanation for those. (Turbine didn't...)

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Originally Posted by Aerinion

Guys, we were talking about ELVES, not rk and LM and Magicky stuf. GESSH

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Yeah, no kidding... I think even the OP has lost interest in the thread at this point.

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Originally Posted by Herwegur

Yeah, no kidding... I think even the OP has lost interest in the thread at this point.

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Indeed I did, long ago.
I got my answer.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by DarkIstar

I feel obligated to defend Loremasters. As far as fireballs go, burning embers, if you look closely at the graphics, is acutally a flaming pinecone, much like Gandalf used in the books.

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Even if it was just a burning pine code, it was ignited how? The campfire pocket item? Gandalf was up a tree in The Hobbit, IIRC.

Just call it magic, then call it a day.

Dudes, this is a thread about ELVES , now you are just leading it WAY OFF, why dont you just make another thread about that? RK, and RP, And LM, and Weak Hobbits, and Superpowerfull elves (witch yes, its true , the elves should be made a little stronger, ) . But srsly, if you want to continue, please, leave this topic for the elves, not the Lighttning-Shooting Rk

"So what I ask you fellow RPers is if you have any information or any other sources you might recommend to please let me know. Also tips and hints are greatly appreciated."

TIME
In the world of Middle Earth, elves are immortal. How an elf perceives time is very different from other races. Plants and animals are born, live, and die almost in a flash, seasons of the year race by like a swift flowing stream, even kings and kingdoms both rise and fall in the single lifetime of an elf. Men run about shouting that the evil King So-and-So must be overthrown! Elves merely shrug, he will be dead of old age soon enough.

If an elf makes a friend of a man or woman, it is a friendship worth more than you can imagine. This is also why there are no unions between elf and man (except for extremely rare occasions). Because an elf no sooner weds than the human spouse is old, infirmed, and in the grave. Now the elf must bear the sorrow of losing the love of his/her life for a thousand years, or more.

Because an elf's life can span great stretches of time, the amount of knowledge they obtain in nearly everything is far greater than the short lifetime of a human.

Now consider War. To lose a single elf in battle is to lose many centuries of knowledge, skill, and wisdom. Therefore, elves do not go to battle on a whim, for them it is a very very serious matter.

Elves take, according to many, a very long time to make decisions (Ents hold the record). This is because they have the luxury of having nearly all the time in the world to think on things. This is always a constant source of frustration among the other races. Never expect an elf to make a snap decision.


All of the above has only dealt with an elf's longevity, there are other major physical differences which additionally separate men from elves. I list what I can remember about Middle Earth elves only to illustrate:

Do not sleep
Acute hearing
Highly intelligent
Unmatched agility
No facial or body hair
Very tall and slender build
Can communicate with animals and trees
Fantastic eyesight (exceeded only by raptors)
Do not suffer in hot or cold temperatures (except extreme conditions)
A few special elves also have the gift of "the Sight", the innate ability to see into the future.

You can see from this list that, other than appearance, elves are not very human-like at all.

Suffice it to say, the thought of a union between elf and human is unthinkable to an elf, the biological and cultural differences are too vast.


Psychology - the mental characteristics or attitude of a person or group.

We've seen how something as simple as a very long lifespan deeply influences how elves view and interact with the world, now we shall delve into other facets of their nature.

There are many stories and poems where elves are seen dancing in a glade or meadow wearing little or no clothing at all. There are several reasons. The first is that elves do not physically suffer adverse effects of hot or cold climes. Secondly, elves do not have any social taboo when it comes to nudity that is typical of human cultures. Due to their closeness to nature, going about "clad in naught but their skin" is as natural as the animals of the wood. This is not to say that elves go about 'all natural' all the time, but for elves clothing is more for ornamenting and enhancing the beauty of the body than it is for protection against the elements.

Elves are often described as "high, haughty, proud, aloof" with regards to other races. It is as though some god somewhere saw the elves and decided to try his hand at it too. Elves consider humans to be a poor imitation of them. And they marvel at the fact that men grow old and die so quickly. Yet humans seem to have some trait imbued in them that elvenkind lacks. Elven sages have debated this for ages and have yet to put a finger on what it is.

Elves hold a very high regard for life and all living things. Sentient beings and animals are not slain for sport, trophy, or experience. Killing is done only when absolutely necessary and unavoidable.

Here is an interesting exchange in Lord of the Rings, Fellowship of the Ring (edited):

"What a pity that Bilbo did not stab that vile creature [Gollum], when he had a chance!", cried Frodo.

"Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need...", answered Gandalf.

"I can't understand you. Do you mean to say that you, and the Elves, have let him live on after all those horrible deeds? Now at any rate he is as bad as an Orc, and just an enemy. He deserves death."

"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Remember, you are NOT human, don't act like one.