Forbid Passwords to GLFF

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Ironically experience has shown that lff <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< GLFF

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But an unavailable glff is guaranteed to be less effective than an available lff.

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Originally Posted by dietlbomb

For crying out loud, you don't need misquote me. And that so-called correction doesn't make any sense, grammatically or factually. What the heck is "de facto unofficial" supposed to mean? That glff is actually de jure official? Then throw the griefers out for a month. Or did you mean to imply that glff is actually a free for all and completely undeserving of special treatment? The behavior of the developers, community representatives, and GMs contradicts this interpretation as well.

Glff (or its equivalent on other servers) is promoted by Turbine as the main global chat channel where players can chat and form groups for instances. It is actively moderated by GMs for player misbehavior. The fact that glff is formed by an alternative mechanism than standard official channels is not material. Turbine, the GMs, and the players have an interest in keeping the channel open and widespread.

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I have never heard that the current glff-type channels are promoted by Turbine. I've always been under the impression that they are treated like any other user-created channel (and since that is the case they will likely do nothing about forbidding passwords unless all user-created channels are forbidden passwords).

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Originally Posted by Hatter_of_Bree

Well, a publicly anounced ban for a week(first time)/permanntly(second time) for the few first 'jokers' would get this problem solved fast. No need to rewrite code at all.

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Publicly announced bans in general would reduce a lot of undesirable activities on the servers, but Turbine has taken the questionable stance that being held accountable is somehow a violation of one's rights. They do not understand the underlying psychology of group rule violation/enforcement and the benefit of long-term social conditioning.

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Originally Posted by Rampagingdeath

Lets get this straight, you want Turbine to employ 87 people (assuming 8 hour shifts) to monitor global chat channels on 29 servers 24/7 to kick off someone who puts a password on a user created chat channel?

Good luck with that.

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I think the people who are already monitoring the other official channels (several regional channels, several spatial chat channels, several advice channels, ...) would have no difficulty to watch over one more channel per server.

The only difference between all the other channels and this one would be that this one exists only once per server, while all the others exist for different regions.

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Originally Posted by whheydt

But an unavailable glff is guaranteed to be less effective than an available lff.

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Or it causes people to log on, then log off out of frustration, rather than playing that day - and that's never a good thing. I have actually received PMs indicating that people have done just that since this topic has been posted, so that's another reason why this is NOT a good thing, regardless of how "funny" you think this is.

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Originally Posted by Fortinobrand

Publicly announced bans in general would reduce a lot of undesirable activities on the servers, but Turbine has taken the questionable stance that being held accountable is somehow a violation of one's rights. They do not understand the underlying psychology of group rule violation/enforcement and the benefit of long-term social conditioning.

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Coming from a long time on Battle-net (I was on Battle.net when Diablo 1 was the only game there), and a bit of Vanilla WoW, I had the expectation that Turbine would be banning people and writing it up as often as they were. It does send a very clear message that what you are doing displeases the company, and if you want to continue playing, don't do it.

In a more concrete example, it also builds in the "exploiting = dumb" mentality into the user base, which helps to keep things like Harwick under control, since the player base would realize that exploiting that cash generating machine will get them banned from LotRO, which would (in turn) cause less inflation to occur because no one would want to face the consequences, even though they can sit in there and get over 9000 gold by farming every hour they could.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Or it causes people to log on, then log off out of frustration, rather than playing that day - and that's never a good thing. I have actually received PMs indicating that people have done just that since this topic has been posted, so that's another reason why this is NOT a good thing, regardless of how "funny" you think this is.

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Oh,Ghod, not *that* old claim of support. That's the equivalent of "the lurkers support me in e-mail" from 30 years ago. didn't fly then, won't fly now.

And, by the way, where did I express amusement at the issue? The issue does need to be addressed. I even suggested a reasonable means to do so.

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Originally Posted by whheydt

Oh,Ghod, not *that* old claim of support. That's the equivalent of "the lurkers support me in e-mail" from 30 years ago. didn't fly then, won't fly now.

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If you'd like, I can copy and paste a PM here (thus breaking the confidence of the person who sent me the PM).

Doubt all you want, it **actually** happened - I didn't fabricate the "lurkers", and take offense to you suggesting so.

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Originally Posted by whheydt

And, by the way, where did I express amusement at the issue? The issue does need to be addressed. I even suggested a reasonable means to do so.

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Right, because spending development time on a solution WITHOUT having some very severe punishment for the offenders in place is a good idea.

Why fix symptoms if you ignore the cause?

You're still missing the basic point though, global lff is not an official channel and as such isn't open to the same scrutiny as any that are official, turbine simply won't support them.

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Originally Posted by Rampagingdeath

You're still missing the basic point though, global lff is not an official channel and as such isn't open to the same scrutiny as any that are official, turbine simply won't support them.

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Everything that is official started off as unofficial. There's always the prospect of having GlobalLFF an official channel to replace LFF such that it is Global instead of Local. For what it's worth, if I remember correctly Turbine do not take action against players within user channels because they are regarded as private channels. By making GlobalLFF public it allows players to report others for throwing abuse at other players, which is something you should be aware of since we both come from the Eldar server. ^^

As stated before, the prospect of making GlobalLFF public means gold-farmers will swarm back to advertise, so it would be appropriate to only make GlobalLFF available to Premium/VIP players.

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Originally Posted by Rampagingdeath

You're still missing the basic point though, global lff is not an official channel and as such isn't open to the same scrutiny as any that are official, turbine simply won't support them.

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I disagree. Despite not being an official channel, glff does deserve special scrutiny and support.

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Originally Posted by Rampagingdeath

You're still missing the basic point though, global lff is not an official channel and as such isn't open to the same scrutiny as any that are official, turbine simply won't support them.

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I can't help it if a lack of a global channel is a design flaw for LotRO, and GLFF fills that void.

I mean, is there a single server that doesn't have a global channel that does what GLFF on E does?

If that is true for all of the servers, it makes GLFF (or whatever it's named on the various servers) a de facto standard which only further illustrates that the emergent behavior of the player base shows that an official global channel is needed, because we've already done that across all servers, and it needs further protection because it's waaaay to easy to hijack it, and grief the server.

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Originally Posted by Mephistophelis

For what it's worth, if I remember correctly Turbine do not take action against players within user channels because they are regarded as private channels.

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You'd be wrong. Turbine can and does take actions for things done in userchannels, including glff. Also in other locations

Private tells, Kin chats, etc. The question is: 1.'Does anyone bother to report' 2.Does Turbine bother to enforce (if they even get to the ticket with its priority level which I imagine is far below other things.

And I want to cite the CoC here:

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4. While playing the Game or participating in related services, you may not exhibit or partake in behavior that is disruptive to the Game’s normal playability, causes grief or alarm to other players, or degrades the service performance or other players’ client software (for example, deliberately using game bugs or loopholes to disrupt the game or dropping excessive items).

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IMO, hijacking GLFF violates this section of the CoC.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Right, because spending development time on a solution WITHOUT having some very severe punishment for the offenders in place is a good idea.

Why fix symptoms if you ignore the cause?

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Before applying a penalty, you need to establish that you are dealing with a deliberate act. That has not been established. It's a not unreasonable surmise, but it hasn't been demonstrated as factual. Penalizing in that way is very similar to the excesses one sees in the name of "zero tolerance"...kids getting busted for carrying aspirin or fruit knives (when there is fruit in the kid's lunch).

You will notice that Turbine does not, as a general rule, impose draconian penalties on a first offense. That's a *good* policy. You're asking to change that policy to one that says, "one slip up at the wrong time and you're toast." That's a good way to kill their business once the word gets around.

So... Yes. Fix the problem. Do it in a way that is both cost effective and fairly quick and painless by giving the GMs a means and a policy. Lower the boom on deliberate and/or repeat offenders. In the mean time, make sure that people know how to avoid passwording widely used channels and what to do (report it themselves) if they do it accidentally. But if someone self-reports, *thank* them rather that booting them.

As I noted previously; with your proposed rules, I will drop /glff like a hot potato and advise everyone I come in contact with to do the same.

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Originally Posted by whheydt

Before applying a penalty, you need to establish that you are dealing with a deliberate act. That has not been established. It's a not unreasonable surmise, but it hasn't been demonstrated as factual. Penalizing in that way is very similar to the excesses one sees in the name of "zero tolerance"...kids getting busted for carrying aspirin or fruit knives (when there is fruit in the kid's lunch).

You will notice that Turbine does not, as a general rule, impose draconian penalties on a first offense. That's a *good* policy. You're asking to change that policy to one that says, "one slip up at the wrong time and you're toast." That's a good way to kill their business once the word gets around.

So... Yes. Fix the problem. Do it in a way that is both cost effective and fairly quick and painless by giving the GMs a means and a policy. Lower the boom on deliberate and/or repeat offenders. In the mean time, make sure that people know how to avoid passwording widely used channels and what to do (report it themselves) if they do it accidentally. But if someone self-reports, *thank* them rather that booting them.

As I noted previously; with your proposed rules, I will drop /glff like a hot potato and advise everyone I come in contact with to do the same.

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Given that the password for the E GLFF is another player's name, I highly doubt that this was an innocent act, and strongly suspect this to be a conscious, malicious act with the perpetrator knowing full well exactly what would happen. Given how many people are affected by this, the penalty should match the magnitude.

But let me ask you this, where did I suggest that they shouldn't investigate what happened? If someone truly did this maliciously, then there would (more than likely) be logged evidence to support that hypothesis - assuming that the logs are as comprehensive as I hope they are.....

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Given that the password for the E GLFF is another player's name, I highly doubt that this was an innocent act, and strongly suspect this to be a conscious, malicious act with the perpetrator knowing full well exactly what would happen. Given how many people are affected by this, the penalty should match the magnitude.

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I can think of ways for that sort of password to be an accident. As I previously stated, it's low probability, but not impossible.

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But let me ask you this, where did I suggest that they shouldn't investigate what happened? If someone truly did this maliciously, then there would (more than likely) be logged evidence to support that hypothesis - assuming that the logs are as comprehensive as I hope they are.....

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When you said:

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Right, because spending development time on a solution WITHOUT having some very severe punishment for the offenders in place is a good idea.

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...you make no indication that you think an investigation of the circumstances should take place. Now I'll grant that Fortinobrand put it rather more baldly, when he replied to Hatter of Bree by saying:

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Publicly announced bans in general would reduce a lot of undesirable activities on the servers, but Turbine has taken the questionable stance that being held accountable is somehow a violation of one's rights.

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Much of the discussion in this thread reminds me of a lynch mob. Those advocating "summary justice" might want to take a step back, a couple of deep breaths, and think about what they're asking for...and if they'd like to be on the receiving end of what that are asking to be dished out.

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Originally Posted by whheydt

Much of the discussion in this thread reminds me of a lynch mob. Those advocating "summary justice" might want to take a step back, a couple of deep breaths, and think about what they're asking for...and if they'd like to be on the receiving end of what that are asking to be dished out.

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To be honest, if I ever do something completely and totally stupid like passwording GLFF, then I full well deserve to have my LotRO account closed because I will have disrupted the grouping/trading activities of many of the players on E, not to mention the (more often than not asinine) social activities that occur in GLFF.

Regardless of what you may think of GLFF, no one has any right to be that disruptive.

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Originally Posted by Crell_1

You'd be wrong. Turbine can and does take actions for things done in userchannels, including glff. Also in other locations

Private tells, Kin chats, etc. The question is: 1.'Does anyone bother to report' 2.Does Turbine bother to enforce (if they even get to the ticket with its priority level which I imagine is far below other things.

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Oh, I didn't know that. I think it's all down to the situation; there are times where people who do troll do so in a banter-like manner which is humorous. Here in Eldar, things like this are just the norm.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

To be honest, if I ever do something completely and totally stupid like passwording GLFF, then I full well deserve to have my LotRO account closed because I will have disrupted the grouping/trading activities of many of the players on E, not to mention the (more often than not asinine) social activities that occur in GLFF.

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You are certainly free to close out your LotRO account for that, or any other, reason whenever you wish. If you passworded /glff intentionally, and Turbine can determine that you did it intentionally, then such actions as they chose to take would follow. But dropping the axe on your account is unlikely to their choice unless you make a habit of it.

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Regardless of what you may think of GLFF, no one has any right to be that disruptive.

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What I think of /glff has no bearing on the issue. However, some form or reasonable process where, in the words of the Mikado, Turbine lets the punishment fit the crime, is still in order. It's all one with the tradition of saying that I abhor what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

It's the attitude that passwording /glff is just SO terrible that Turbine must apply summary judgment to someone having done so--regardless of how or why it was done--that is abhorrent. How about we allow Turbine to apply a process meting out a suitable penalty *after* they determine the applicable facts and make the response measure to act and cut out the lynch mob mentality that has emerged in this thread.

In point of fact, Elendilmir continued to function quite well, despite lack of access to /glff. Many people probably never noticed the lack. Others, that would normally rely on it found workarounds. Some few--according to your claims--simply logged out. It's not like someone found a way to instantly and repeatedly crash the server making it unavailable for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Mephistophelis

Oh, I didn't know that. I think it's all down to the situation; there are times where people who do troll do so in a banter-like manner which is humorous. Here in Eldar, things like this are just the norm.

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What normally happens on E when we see a GM is the trolling has gotten seriously out of hand to the point of being overly offensive, and a GM steps in and tells peeps to calm down.

Oh, and sometimes we see them cause we're awesome, and they're just chillin =)

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Originally Posted by FundinStrongarm

I have never heard that the current glff-type channels are promoted by Turbine. I've always been under the impression that they are treated like any other user-created channel (and since that is the case they will likely do nothing about forbidding passwords unless all user-created channels are forbidden passwords).

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It's suggested as something players should join in one of their newbie guides.
http://archive.lotro.com/news/952-ei...tial-mmo-terms

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Originally Posted by TinDragon

It's suggested as something players should join in one of their newbie guides.
http://archive.lotro.com/news/952-ei...tial-mmo-terms

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Well, that link basically puts GLFF in the grey area between normal channel, and official channel.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

And I want to cite the CoC here:



IMO, hijacking GLFF violates this section of the CoC.

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The CoC is written very vaguely, which allows Turbine to interpret it as it sees fit. If Turbine happens to agree with your intrepretation, cool, but you're not the one who gets to interpret it.

Neither am I, for that matter - if I were, most of the inane conversations I see in GLFF I would happily consider as violations of that very same rule you quoted.

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Originally Posted by dietlbomb

For crying out loud, you don't need misquote me. And that so-called correction doesn't make any sense, grammatically or factually. What the heck is "de facto unofficial" supposed to mean? That glff is actually de jure official? Then throw the griefers out for a month. Or did you mean to imply that glff is actually a free for all and completely undeserving of special treatment? The behavior of the developers, community representatives, and GMs contradicts this interpretation as well.

Glff (or its equivalent on other servers) is promoted by Turbine as the main global chat channel where players can chat and form groups for instances. It is actively moderated by GMs for player misbehavior. The fact that glff is formed by an alternative mechanism than standard official channels is not material. Turbine, the GMs, and the players have an interest in keeping the channel open and widespread.

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Just because a player created channel is the De Facto Global channel does not make it official. I have never seen Turbine officially promote GLFF as an official channel. That dose not mean everyone should run rampant. It deserves the same treatment as any other player created channel. Moderation and making sure players follow the CoC.

It's that same with Landroval being the original De Facto role playing server. It will always be the un-official Role Playing server.

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Originally Posted by TinDragon

It's suggested as something players should join in one of their newbie guides.
http://archive.lotro.com/news/952-ei...tial-mmo-terms

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If I remember correctly, these are player written guides that Turbine is promoting. Yes, GLFF is a good thing to join. Yes, it is moderated...somewhat. That still does not make it "official".

I find two things amusing;

1. How serious some people take glff (a user created channel)
2. How we were having server maintenance every second day for about two weeks until glff got locked (and needed server maintenance to try and rescue it)

There are far more stressing things to stress about; like the decline of previously amazing raiding kins (and no I don't think these two issues are in any way linked).