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I disagree, Kick. I don't think they're protecting the interaction between PC members from getting out. In other words, I don't think the NDA was kept in place to prevent the community from finding out that player x was bickering with player y. It was Turbine interactions in a few specific instances/threads, that they don't want out.Quote:
Originally Posted by kickman77
I kind of agree with you two and I kind of don't. No, Turbine shouldn't need the PC for what it's been used for in the past. BUT, saying they should use the forums instead is a complete swing and miss. For every suggestion in the forums, there's usually an equal and opposite suggestion as well. Us humans usually only like to provide bad feedback, so good suggestions get drowned out because we're less likely to bother to post to say "that's a good suggestion!" than we are to post to say "that's dumb."Quote:
Originally Posted by peachykins
IF Turbine played the game, then it might be more valuable as they'd be able to parse for themselves the good suggestions from the bad.
But if Turbine played the game on the regular, they wouldn't need a PC or Forums to suggest fixes anyway. The single biggest problem with this game is the fact that historically, and I don't know about the current team and would invite them to say if I'm wrong, but historically Turbine's LOTRO devs, played LOTRO only in passing at best. They've long been cooks who don't taste their food. A PC, a forums, can't provide that crucial first person knowledge, first hand experience, that this requires.
One reads blame because that what your statement does:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave
Given that Turbine initiated and organised the pvmp player council, it as an organisation are responsible for setting out clearly the purpose of said group and hence managing the expectations of its members through carefully managed interaction and dialogue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave
Consider this for a moment - Turbine's management have overall control of the staff resources and the setting of detailed targets. It is solely at the discretion of Turbine's management to determine the extent to which staff are required to interact with PC members in the design and development of new features and other changes. For example, whoever is in charge of delivering a given pvmp feature could require the team to ensure that the pvmp pc are consulted on all significant aspects of the feature during the design phase and their views taken into account. Anyone working in IT will understand the engagement with end-users during discovery / design. That way, users are not only consulted but also feel that their views are important to the organisation. So in short, the whole "but the devs are too busy" is just an excuse, and a bad one at that.
However, that we have pvmp pc members coming here to state that they feel they are not being listened to is not because they are "hard to please" but rather a reflection that Turbine has either:
- Not managing the pvmp pc members expectations.
- Not engaging with pvmp pc members during the discovery / design process in a meaningful way as a deliberate management decision, or
- Turbine have put in place the mechanisms but Turbine staff are just not following through with it - either poor performance on the part of staff or bad management or both.
Put simply, one would ask why on earth do Turbine both with the PC if they don't do it justice.As someone who works on systems development, I can assure you that having people on the team or access to them who are considered experts in the field can often make the difference between putting out something on the basis that you think you know what is right and putting out something that's been agreed as right.
So suggesting that it's the fault of the pc because they're hard to please is naive.
Personally, I do not have faith neither to the company itself and their developers nor to any of the two existing PCs atm.
They have completely forgot what "fun in a game" means.
It is clearly enough that it is the store profit they care about.
Or that is their prerogative anyways.
In my eyes, they do not care about us, the player basis.
That being said, I do not trully care what any of the two PCs is up to.
They may live in their imaginary world, where everything in LOTRO is nicely done.
Well, that is just my personal opinion w/e
lol Really, Bango, you are reading blame because you want to. If I am blaming PvMPers, what am I blaming them of doing? What did I say they did? I haven't said they've done anything at all, whether good or bad. In fact, I very clearly stated (and you even bolded it) that I didn't know what goes on behind closed doors. As such I CAN'T blame them or anyone else for anything that happens in the PvMP PC forums. Because I have know way of knowing!Quote:
Originally Posted by BangoTwinkletoes
All I have done is describe the nature of a PvMPer -- a few characteristics that I feel (and I doubt many of them, if any, would disagree) most of them share. Being difficult to please is apparently a bad thing in your opinion. In mine, that means they have high standards. They expect a lot and they put forth a great deal of effort to get what they want.
At which point I can only speculate. My guess, personal guess, is that the PvMPers come up with a lot of fantastic ideas, but that the limited resources of Turbine's staff makes implementing them (or at least all of them, or perhaps even some of them fully) probably impossible. I do not blame PvMPers for their resourcefulness and dedication: I applaud them. But I also do not blame Turbine's staff. The devs don't decide how much time and money they can use. I doubt even Vyv does that. The accounting department and "Big Brother" at WB does that. If any blame really wants to be tossed around, I'd direct it at the vein that feeds -- or starves -- Turbine's wallet.
Much of the rest of your is therefore difficult to respond to, as it is based entirely on a false assumption that I am blaming PvMPers for something.
Interesting. I view them as spoiled crybabies with unreasonable expectations of LOTRO. They want everything and now, and when they don't get half of it, they can't contain themselves and throw a temper tantrum, just because they can. Like, look what happened with the last PvMP update. Turbine gave them a new map and a bunch of stuff, whatever, but that wasn't enough. They demanded a sweeping rebalance of creep and freep classes that would spill all over even on PvE. Actually, they even demanded a PvE rebalence based on PvMP functionality. Turbine might have rightly felt it was a mistake to get the PvMP mob started, as these are exactly the people who can never have enough and you will never get an A on anything from them. Why? Because they are 15 and they need a reality check.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave
That said, not all PvMP people are like this. Some of them are very reasonable, friendly and mature but they are the exception. And it is also true that the Osgiliath map was a disappointment to every single person I know.
+1 on this, I agree. I always figured I'd been picked for 2014 because I had a different opinion than "yes, everything sounds great" and had solid ideas and input. Later I understood I was mistaken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowlock
Winner winner chicken dinner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowlock
/careQuote:
Originally Posted by Grego28
If the past 8 years haven't tought you anything... well, nothing ever truely will. Prepare to be disappointed for the remainder of your miserable PvP career.
Yes, you are absolutely right!Quote:
Originally Posted by Cambruyn
You, on the other hand, seem to have been taught A LOT, don't you?
What to say more to somebody who cares enough to reply to an absolutely personal statement?
Well, you seem to be in a great need, if I may say so, good sir!
Now, move on and let me enjoy "my miserable PvP career".
You may live with your own misery, as well.
Enjoy
As someone has already stated, the player base is way too small to justify a focus group. It's the job of Turbine to weed out the pros and cons of suggestions put forth on this forum. And I think you are being too cynical (ironic, coming from me): There is a multi-page thread about a Housing/Kinship revamp that has been going on for what...years?...that has more people agreeing with the ideas than disagreeing. It all depends on what is brought forth. The sad part about that thread...not once has Turbine stepped in to even acknowledge it's existence or the ideas being brought to the table. I would accept a "hey, some great ideas here but because of blah blah blah, any type of housing/kinship revamp is off the table". But, they have said nothing. It's pathetic and goes back to my original comment about communication and feedback.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowlock
But yes, I agree--it's abundantly clear that the folks at Turbine that should be PLAYING the game, are not.
re the bit I highlighted - that's exactly the issue - all Turbine have to do is set out clearly the terms of engagement with the community and then acknowledge the ideas when they're presented - if that is done correctly then there should never be the situation arising as it has done where people believe they are not being listened to. The whole "oh but you're all too hard to please anyway" is just the lazy "I can't be bothered" response - which MV seems to be unable to recognise.Quote:
Originally Posted by bucko39
Looking again at that Kinship revamp proposal - I find it unacceptable that Turbine has never formally responded to that thread - if there was ever a proposal presented in a way which the fanbois tell us should be "well thought out and constructive", that is the exemplar, yet it's been ignored. If I were the author of that proposal I would have left the game a long time ago in disgust. Indeed I wonder if any of the PC members over the past 2 1/2 years have been banging the table loudly to get Turbine to respond to it - it's the least they could do.
...Wow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coeprandua
If any company has this attitude toward any group of their customers, they're doing something wrong. These are your views and you're welcome to them, but if a company knows they put out a disappointing product and then decides their customers are childish whiners because they don't like it... yeesh. Delusional business model.
Nah, it's just my views on some of the people here. I just had to put it here because someone said PvMP folks in this game have high expectations and they put a lot of effort in achieving their goals, neither of which is true. I won't get into what I think Turbine's views are as I have done that in the past and it leads nowhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warmutkan
To clarify, I mean people's expectations of LOTRO are not high, they are what you would expect of any decent MMO of today. Problem is LOTRO can't live up to those standards for many reasons. Some expectations that would be in order for FFXIV, GW2, RIFT, etc are very unreasonable for LOTRO, which is an old game and a budget to reflect that. So whatever you get here will be just for show and to keep the game alive till Mordor on a very basic level of existence. Like others said, everything will be about 25% of what they could be, if Turbine/WB thought this game was viable in the long term.
I cant comment for 2014 because ya know NDA but...Quote:
Originally Posted by BangoTwinkletoes
in 2013, it was mentioned, brought up, linked and openly discussed in our forums with zero input from turbine other than to tell us the housing update was canceled. We did however have our own housing thread as well with focused feedback and would directly link to the housing revamp thread on the main forums (same with kinships) and again we were told rather bluntly thanks for the time you invested in these ideas but housing is canceled.
Since the 2013 NDA is dropped I know a big thing myself and a few other members were oushing for even if they could not do a major housing update was to add crafting facilities to your house or kin house and than be able to use Mithril to upgrade it critical chance range
Without any first hand knowledge or hands on experience? Impossible for the reasons I stated.Quote:
Originally Posted by bucko39
Why? The game launched successfully without years and years of forums suggestions. Why are they so necessary now? There was no PC then, why do we need one now? I buy into the idea that Turbine needs player input, but only because they refuse to acquire the input themselves. I do not in the slightest support the idea that this game's development should be community driven. Look at the moors, it's a disaster, and 95% of the changes that have been made have come at the request of the players. All of the worst stuff, from Outposts, to Rank buffs, to the farmfest in Oz, to the changes to KB's, to Audacity and Healtagging, getting rid of stars, changing rating... You name it, that's alllllllllllllllllllllllllllll lll player requested. If anything, there's been far too much input from players. Most players are self interested, usually not the brightest, and transitory. Devs are experienced and educated in creating games, and they're financially interested in making it successful. I trust them far more than I do the players. But they can only do their jobs right if they play. The EP, if they have that kind of power, should be requiring LOTRO team members to play lotro as a job function at least 8 hours a week.Quote:
And I think you are being too cynical (ironic, coming from me)
So, the more people agree with stuff, the less I trust it. There are far more people in this world who listen to Katy Perry these days than there are who like The Replacements. Doesn't make her music the better choice.Quote:
There is a multi-page thread about a Housing/Kinship revamp that has been going on for what...years?...that has more people agreeing with the ideas than disagreeing.
I'm glad they didn't go forward with that fluff nonsense in the housing revamps given their limited resources if that meant less landscape to play on. And I think Rowan was 1000000000000000000% correct in cancelling that Paiz garbage so we could see Gondor instead. And I'm always amazed at players who piss and moan about casual content development and then turn around and cry too about the cancellation of housing. HOUSING IS CASUAL CONTENT. And it highlights perfectly exactly that lack of consistency on the part of the players which makes their input suspect.
There's an absolutely fantastic example of this from PC2014 that would actually defend Turbine in this case, that I could tell you, if THEY WOULD DROP THE GD NDA!!!
Player housing is also a gold mine for those MMOs that have a) done it justice and b) monetised it without being overtly greedy. I believe that housing is a good example where the Turbine exec producer should have put together a business plan to get new investment from WB. Of course landscape & instance content is the staple of the team and what we've had since Western Gondor is far better than HD & RoR, just that overall it lacks any significant ambition. But, yeah if housing is casual content then so what - if it pulls in the players and revenues that then gives the lotro team more scope to expand on better & improved instanced content then everyone wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowlock
However, the whole Paiz spin about housing was just that - she tried to do it on the cheap and failed appallingly and let the spin spiral out of control.
And the raiders don't do that? And the housing revamp fans? And _________?Quote:
Originally Posted by Coeprandua
Also, I was talking about how PvMPers would themselves think. I don't think any/many of them would disagree with what I said.
Much of the rest of your post is based on your own unfounded guesses (that they are all 15 and whatnot). So there's not really much to say to those parts. It's hard enough to discuss something that is based in fact. Harder still when it's based entirely on prejudicial supposition.
Whatever one may think of a PvMPers behavior or personality, a person would be a fool to think that they are not good players. PvMPers -- and raiders -- are among the strongest players of any MMO. They learn the game in and out because they must in order to win. They are highly competitive. They may not polish their sentences and their fuse may be so short it can't be seen, but that does not make them bad players of the game.
It would be like saying sports fans are bad people just because their fanaticism about a given game might lead them to get into fights about who is the best quarterback, or whether such-and-such a referee is an idiot for calling foul on play XYZ.
My personal opinion on housing is irrelevent. The point of stating it is the contradiction among many players who complain about the wealth of casual content and then turn around and whine about a lack of a housing update. It's contradictory at best, and if you're an outsider like a Turbine Dev, then which outlook are they supposed to believe of that player... THe one that wants harder content, more landscape.. or do they want fluff (housing). It really is an either or scenario. So if that contradiction is there within the same player, how do you trust their feedback because their feedback or suggestions will be contradictory too, and thus not as useful as the player may think it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by BangoTwinkletoes
Yes indeed. And probably they are the reason of why normal people end up playing a totally different class than they started. I think that many people get tired of the constant neverending class re balancing to please PvPers. The irony is when PvPers are fed up, bored of doing the same every night, they leave like locusts to other game; leaving decimated communities in their path.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave
people comparing FF with LotRO... what's next, CoD vs FIFA :rolleyes:
It is true that they do hammer for changes to the classes. However, in fairness, they are very often right. It may mean we have to relearn parts of our class, but that is fairly standard after bug fixes. In other worse, we (all players) encounter a bug. Some skill doesn't work right, or something. In the short-term, we don't have any choices. We get used to its brokenness. We find tactics and techniques to work around it. Then it finally gets fixed or otherwise changed (hopefully without introducing more problems, which have an unfortunate tendency to pop up) and we have to relearn the skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laerien
Of course, the most drastic changes were with HD. I don't know what led to that, though I suspect it wasn't due to the PvMPers. I think the devs wanted to do that regardless of what PvMPers -- or anyone else -- said.
For myself, as one who PvMPers, raids and plays casually, depending on my mood and time constraints, there are many skills on many classes that I consider broken, and that sentiment I find often shared, in kinchat (among other casuals), here on the forums, etc. It is shared among casuals and hardcores alike. I know of minstrels from both ends of the spectrum who come to the same conclusion about some of their skills. And sometimes the casuals are just as loud as the PvMPers about getting some of them fixed.
So yes. Relearning our skills is an unfortunate side-effect of rebalancing classes, but I for one am happy to do so, so long as the changes in question are for the better. I'd rather we slowly work towards balance instead of settling on "good enough". That is the same reason why I cast my vote with raiders and PvMPers and the similar about wanting traditional instances and more class balance (not just in PvE but in PvMP as well). Because I don't want "good enough". There is loads of room for improvement, and if we can see improvement happen, then I jolly well want it to. :)
1. It's still their job, regardless if you think they are willing/able to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowlock
2. We don't, obviously.
3. Agree 100%
4. I never said that it should be completely community driven.
5. So according to you, everything that is wrong with PvMp is all because of player input...I'm assuming because you, a player, doesn't agree with what has been done. Okay, sure.
6. They are indeed--yourself included (as is obvious by #5).
7. I'm not even going to touch that one. You clearly missed the point here.
8. Fluff to you, sure...but as Bango said, if done right it could be a money maker for Turbine. Y'know the company that everyone keeps saying is lacking in resources...
9. You must be referring to someone else here...but you have a limited view of Housing if you think it's strictly "casual content". It all depends on how it's developed (i.e. kinship housing)
4. No, it should only be community driven in so far as the suggestions you prefer are the ones driving. And that's the nature of the issue, even if your suggestions are good, and personally I usually think they are, the discussion is about Turbine's ability to parse these suggestions - the wheat from the chaff. They pick equally.Quote:
Originally Posted by bucko39
5. No. Just 95 percent.
6. I'm not sure why you state that as an accusation. Yes, I'm a player.
7. No I didn't. You tried to make it sound like just because lots of people agree with something, that makes it right. That is not the case.
8. Nearly every suggestion offered is couched in terms of "you can make so much money at this Turbine!". The good suggestions and the bad. So which "this is a slam dunk money maker!" argument do they believe?
9. No, it's solo content designed for the solo player that emphasizes cosmetics; a very casual reward. I like housing, I'd like to see it buffed. But Turbine has to pick and choose things. The much hated Paiz regime that wanted to turn LOTRO into Farmville chose housing, the following regime, lead by an old-school LOTRO'er, chose Gondor. It was the right promise to break.
These days, though... Who can tell for certain what would be a better direction - Farmville or Gondor? There is a market for things like housing. Newer mmos like Archeage and Everquest Next really emphasize it. Skyrim had a full housing expansion. Even a hack and slash game like PoE is talking to housing enthusiasts. The casual crowd is ever growing. People want something else, more than just the same old kill X things quest that they get everywhere. Really advanced housing and guild systems could be the way to move forward. While Lotro has obvious limits, Turbine could still do many things to improve the game in this field. So, personally, I don't agree that it was the right promise to break. They also broke another promise (kinship deeds) that no one talks about and instead they are rushing the content, which is a huge turn-off for me. It's just sending the message that Lotro has no time left.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowlock
I don't disagree. I like housing. Every hook in my house and kin house is filled and kept relatively current. But housing is lipstick for the proverbial pig. I'm not particularly interested in what will make Turbine money. It's not that I don't care, it's that I have no information surrounding this so I have to take it out of the equation and just a assume they are doing what they can. Fair assumption? Maybe or maybe not but until such information arises as to give us a clearer picture of LOTRO's success or lack there of, and Turbine's control of that success in a WB environment, cause we always have to consider that, there's no real point. Sooo, I'm only interested in the development of the game itself, and I base that on the game as launched, rather than what it's become. And I want more of that game, and from what I've seen and been told by the blue names, that part of the game must come at the cost of the other part of the game like housing... At least for now. So, I'm okay with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coeprandua
We say the casual crowd is ever growing, and at the same time we say the MMO market is ever shrinking. So, there's a correlation there and possibly a chicken/egg argument. Is the casual crowd growing because "causal development" is taking place? Or is casual development taking place because the casual market demands it?
Is the MMO market shrinking because profits from the casual crowd not sustainable?
We drift off topic but it's an interesting discussion too.
7. You conveniently forgot the part where I said, "it all depends on what (idea) is brought forth"Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowlock
8. Who the hell knows? But someone at Turbine needs to pull their head out. They introduce cosmetic weapons and decide NOT to put a #### load of cool weapon cosmetics in the store?
9. Like I said, you have a limited view of Housing. If you interlock Housing and Kinship development it becomes much more than a pretty picture on a wall. It becomes more about a group (kin) working together to achieve an objective. The end result could be anything from critical crafting buffs, kinship wide dps buffs (it would have to be minimal, but it would still be something), to kinship wide travel cost reductions throughout Middle Earth (for building up your stable)...and yeah, it would also be about having a kick ### kin house to show off. And the last time I checked, the housing item that dropped in BG T2CM was not awarded because anyone did it solo. Lastly, the excuse..."if they do X, we won't get Y"...is basically accepting mediocrity as Turbine's business motto.