@Vastin - Endgame Beorning Heals Need a Nerf

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Originally Posted by Iluvata

You cannot hit 25k HPS with every healer. RK can't even come close to that. Minstrel can hit 25k HPS nowadays, but only very good raid-mini's ever do. I'm not sure you have any end-game experience based on your statements.

Right, I have no idea how the class works and I heal for 25k HPS ST and 120K aoe IN DPS GEAR. Thanks again for proving my point that beorning heals are OP.

What? Beornings are tied for the 1st spot heal role. The only reason mini's are tied with them is for mini-buffs.... This is common knowledge.

I don't care about PvMP either. This thread is about end-game healing.

And who do you think needs to be nerfed first?



Wardens have a role in buffing/debuffing in end-game raids. They boost the DPS output of their fellowship/raid by a considerable margin. Also, for boss 2, Wardens have some of the best AOE DPS around.

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If Minis are tied with Beornings in healing as you say then whats the problem? surely its just the RK that needs work, which it is getting soon....ish. Though the RK does have some very nice bubbles that do not contribute to HPS score and so does the minstrel.

A mini should not be better than a Beorning at healing nor should it be other way around. 100% balance though is probably not achievable lol. Just be happy all are effective and without massively varying degrees of power. I think they are fairly close but a few small tweaks here and there might be good.

Dps or healing gear does not matter at all. As long as the caps are hit.

If you removed the AoE raid wide heal of RB and made it FS only then that would have a big effect to AoE healing output. Problem with SSG is that they would remove the raid wide heal of RB and nerf it at the same time and the Beorning would be on the shelf yet again.

Maybe the Minstrel was nerfed a little too hard (though they seem fne to me), maybe raid bosses need to hit harder etc.

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Originally Posted by Happychappy

If Minis are tied with Beornings in healing as you say then whats the problem? surely its just the RK that needs work, which it is getting soon....ish. Though the RK does have some very nice bubbles that do not contribute to HPS score and so does the minstrel.

A mini should not be better than a Beorning at healing nor should it be other way around. 100% balance though is probably not achievable lol. Just be happy all are effective and without massively varying degrees of power. I think they are fairly close but a few small tweaks here and there might be good.

Dps or healing gear does not matter at all. As long as the caps are hit.

If you removed the AoE raid wide heal of RB and made it FS only then that would have a big effect to AoE healing output. Problem with SSG is that they would remove the raid wide heal of RB and nerf it at the same time and the Beorning would be on the shelf yet again.

Maybe the Minstrel was nerfed a little too hard (though they seem fne to me), maybe raid bosses need to hit harder etc.

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I was not entirely clear earlier. Beornings are better than minstrels as a healer/buffer overall. But many groups carry one of each to benefit from both buffs. This means that they are both #1 in terms of being taken as a healer, but it does not change the fact that beorning heals are overscaled. If you wanted a raw HPS output so high that it was impossible to die (single-target and AOE), two bears is the way to go.

Your second statement is exactly what I am trying to say lol. Beornings are much better than minstrels at healing. They hit far higher ST-HPS and AOE HPS. It should be one or the other, not both.

The AOE Heals of the Bear are not the problem, so I don't think RB should be adjusted. It is the ST-HPS that is too high.

lol obviously by stating I am in DPS Gear I am implying my stat caps are not hit, and I am getting 25k HPS ST.

Minstrel was buffed, not nerfed in the last update.

I already explained why raid bosses do not need to be made harder. Even with the tank's Emergency Skills used, bosses can put out nearly 28k TPS, which is a tank's entire morale bar every 10 seconds. That is assuming buffs/debuffs do not fall off very often. With no debuffs, bosses hit for over 50k TPS, which is a tank's entire morale bar every 6 seconds. To illustrate this point futher, if a healer was not present, the bosses were not debuffed, and the tank was not using a CD, the boss would blow through a tank's entire morale bar in 2-3 seconds.

Again, I want to reiterate, a point from my last post: I think the recent burglar update tells us everything we need to know. Vastin tends to overscale things. Look at the burg class, which was just buffed and now has the highest DPS in the game. Burgs can hit upwards of 100k ST without buffs, and around 200k SINGLE-TARGET with buffs. Vastin sometimes overscales things, and the Beorning is no exception.

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Originally Posted by Iluvata

I was not entirely clear earlier. Beornings are better than minstrels as a healer/buffer overall. But many groups carry one of each to benefit from both buffs. This means that they are both #1 in terms of being taken as a healer, but it does not change the fact that beorning heals are overscaled. If you wanted a raw HPS output so high that it was impossible to die (single-target and AOE), two bears is the way to go.

Your second statement is exactly what I am trying to say lol. Beornings are much better than minstrels at healing. They hit far higher ST-HPS and AOE HPS. It should be one or the other, not both.

The AOE Heals of the Bear are not the problem, so I don't think RB should be adjusted. It is the ST-HPS that is too high.

lol obviously by stating I am in DPS Gear I am implying my stat caps are not hit, and I am getting 25k HPS ST.

Minstrel was buffed, not nerfed in the last update.

I already explained why raid bosses do not need to be made harder. Even with the tank's Emergency Skills used, bosses can put out nearly 28k TPS, which is a tank's entire morale bar every 10 seconds. That is assuming buffs/debuffs do not fall off very often. With no debuffs, bosses hit for over 50k TPS, which is a tank's entire morale bar every 6 seconds. To illustrate this point futher, if a healer was not present, the bosses were not debuffed, and the tank was not using a CD, the boss would blow through a tank's entire morale bar in 2-3 seconds.

Again, I want to reiterate, a point from my last post: I think the recent burglar update tells us everything we need to know. Vastin tends to overscale things. Look at the burg class, which was just buffed and now has the highest DPS in the game. Burgs can hit upwards of 100k ST without buffs, and around 200k SINGLE-TARGET with buffs. Vastin sometimes overscales things, and the Beorning is no exception.

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Sorry but i disagree and nothing here convinces me otherwise. It is just your opinion we are seeing here. There is far more to it than what you are saying but you are intent on putting all the blame onto the Beorning class at every opportunity.

They overscale and they overnerf also.

Just show some actual figures of Minstrel vs RK vs Beorning healing and lets take into account buffs and bubbles etc or just stop posting if you can not be bothered.

This thread serves no purpose other than to get the developers to take notice and get the Beorning nerfed to unplayable again, because this is not the first thread of its kind to get a class nerfed into oblivion is it?

Don't spit your dummy out because some kid has a bigger ice cream than you, when yours has chocolate sauce on it instead. :)

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Originally Posted by Happychappy

Sorry but i disagree and nothing here convinces me otherwise. It is just your opinion we are seeing here. There is far more to it than what you are saying but you are intent on putting all the blame onto the Beorning class at every opportunity.

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What am I not telling? I am speaking from the perspective of a T3 Raider. I am not hiding anything. I have also put in the time and work to make my beorning a powerful healer and tank. I know what I am talking about. I think a T3-raider's opinion matters concerning endgame heals more than non-endgame raider's opinions.

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Originally Posted by Happychappy

They overscale and they overnerf also.

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That is not a valid excuse to knowingly accept a highly overscaled class that makes content trivial.

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Originally Posted by Happychappy

Just show some actual figures of Minstrel vs RK vs Beorning healing and lets take into account buffs and bubbles etc or just stop posting if you can not be bothered.

This thread serves no purpose other than to get the developers to take notice and get the Beorning nerfed to unplayable again, because this is not the first thread of its kind to get a class nerfed into oblivion is it?

Don't spit your dummy out because some kid has a bigger ice cream than you, when yours has chocolate sauce on it instead. :)

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I think my intentions with this thread are clear. Maybe you should stop posting in it if you are so sure it is a useless thread? This is a thread about endgame Beorning nerfs, and my sense is you have little-to-no endgame raiding experience.

Test beo heal in 3/6m then speak.
In raid beo heal look huge because hes not limited to fellowship/party heal.
But gues you know that. Or not ...
One advice. To all "NERF IT" moaners. Dont cry for nerf. Ask SSG to boost other classes.
Wonder why ? Because when they nerf, is to the ground.
So yea. Use that brain of yours...

What´s the problem raids count, 3/6 are so damn easy, that it doesn´t matter who heals.
In some constellations no hela is enough, in others lm as healer or even burg as healer is enough.
So who cares who is weaker in 3 or 6 men, raid opness matters.
Maybe it would be enough to limit the beos heals to target + felloship similar to mini aoeheals.

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Originally Posted by Mukor

What´s the problem raids count, 3/6 are so damn easy, that it doesn´t matter who heals.
In some constellations no hela is enough, in others lm as healer or even burg as healer is enough.
So who cares who is weaker in 3 or 6 men, raid opness matters.
Maybe it would be enough to limit the beos heals to target + felloship similar to mini aoeheals.

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Yes thats what i am saying also. Just change RB to FS only and see how that goes. We do not need a 30%+ nerf at this point, that just a silly OTT request. Rejuvenating Bellow should never have been a raid wide heal, i really do not think that it is working as was intended. Developers have just never bothered to fix it i reckon. I would support that request.

Classes have been given so much self healing now that healers are only needed for the hardest content.

Did Vastin also not say he may be adding more skills to beornings some time in the future?. It would be nice to know if thats still the plan.

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Originally Posted by Happychappy

Yes thats what i am saying also. Just change RB to FS only and see how that goes.

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Well, Iluvata always talks about single target healing. Not saying I am on his side, but changing aoe heal from any number of players in radius into fellowship only won´t change single target healing.


And I have no issue with raid wide heals. It makes possible to create pure dd group and thus captain buffs are better used. Also, since ages we don´t have second healer in dd group but in the tank/support group. (Dps classes heal themselves through healing mark.)

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Originally Posted by Gertes

I think heal in general is to strong, from what i have seen Minis are also able to heal insane numbers, but i agree with you that beo heal is very easy to play (in his basic healing role).

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This. When I tank on my Captain, no matter which class is healing me, I never get that sense of precariousness during the boss fight that I used to feel at some of the older level caps. When there's no point in even getting a single point of incoming healing, it means to me that healers are too strong (and inc healing essences are underscaled)

I play both Mini and Beorning so it doesn't really bother me which is the better healer, as long as it's not RK. :P

There is a very big difference between HPS and actually being a good healer, I find that I overheal like mad with my Beorning, encouraging roar is just overkill for any non-tank class, if you have a few that are taking some big hits then what are you going to do? Hearten's cooldown is too long to use to top people up, even Nature's Mend 5s cooldown is uncomfortably long, you also can't use it in bear form. Bellows or RM are going to hit the entire raid. How much of the healing is effective healing? Sure, it has it's moments where it shines, particularly where the entire raid takes a lot of damage, or where you have npcs that need to be healed as well.

I hope people aren't complaining about the numbers for the sake of just raw HPS, You could sit there and get more than 50k HPS by just stacking SoS on everyone and you will be a horrible healer with great numbers. If a Beo is just trying and squirt out the largest numbers he can then timing means nothing so you just go ham and hope someone competent is compensates for you being an ordinary healer.

Minstrel do have some issues that SSG could address. The class is too reliant on critical heals and the class gets some monstrous magnitude bonuses, to compensate the base numbers are very low, this means non-crit heal streaks are very painful.

While I think moving away from Bolster spam was a good thing, the amount of healing granted by Bolster Our Courage and Raise Our Spirits are so low that they might aswell not even be there. Minstrel is polar opposite to Beorning, it has a lot of efficient heals for topping up non-tanks but the fellowship wide healing is either bound on uncomfortably long cooldowns for the amount they heal (6s cooldown on Inspire Fellow which is less than a tick of RM) or 45s on Triumphant Spirit, 2min on Fellowship Heart. If there is a fair bit of fellowship wide damage Minstrel has numerous less than ideal options. I love major ballad now but 8m range is limiting. There are a lot of legacies, traits, etc to boost Bolster and RoS and all combined are somewhat underwhelming for the investment.

I've lost count of the number of Minstrels who say they have troubles with single target healing when the tank takes some big bursts of damage but don't know the AotTA/Coda/Instant Bolster combo, combined with Chord it allows you to do a significant amount of single target healing in a short period of time.

I like the interaction with the damage reduction buffs from coda and inspire fellows plus the mitigation buff from SoS, there are a lot of things for a minstrel to do now and I think it is in a better place than it ever was. The major problem is significant sustained fellowship wide damage, Beorning have much better tools to deal with it, we have to be a lot more selective about what we use and when. We have far reduced capacity to compensate for others playing badly, the nature of Beorning allows them to do that to some extent.

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Originally Posted by GeorgeBaggy

This. When I tank on my Captain, no matter which class is healing me, I never get that sense of precariousness during the boss fight that I used to feel at some of the older level caps. When there's no point in even getting a single point of incoming healing, it means to me that healers are too strong (and inc healing essences are underscaled)

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If you are looking for "that sense of precariousness", then group with a Captain healer. Problem solved!