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That looks like a whole lot of freep rewards and not much else. Outside of the comms and infamy, what are the creeps getting as a reward/treasure? Looks like freeps get comms AND gear AND Virtue XP AND item XP AND traceries. Creeps get a stack of consumables. Am I reading that correctly? Honest question.Quote:
Originally Posted by SSG_Orion
The map is way too big, and always has been.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeviternus
Maybe Orion should remove stuff/cut it down instead.
You and Orion can have all the hopes and dreams you want of new people coming out to PvP, but the simple fact of the matter is the people are out there that want to PvP already, and incentivising being out there isnt going to suddenly pull in players, on smaller servers especially, you guys live a pipe dream.
And after Orion does all this nonsense, you'll wonder why your pipe dream didn't come to fruition.
It doesn't matter what Orion does, people have been shuffling for years, and its going to happen regardless.
Hello, Gildhur. If you read my original post more closely, you will find I attempt to address this very real issue by balancing player defeats against crafted provisions and supplies.Quote:
Originally Posted by gildhur
For example, on a given server, let us say 1,000 player character defeats occur each week, on average. Let us also suppose crafting player characters produce 1,000 provision and supply items each week. In this case, 1,000 - 1000 = 0 so neither side will gain an advantage in the Ettenmoors.
Now let us say the developers release some new dungeons. Average player character defeats per week rises to 1,200 as group players learn the new dungeons. To compensate, crafting player characters must increase their output to 1,200 provisions and supplies each week. If they do not, 1,200 - 1,000 = 200 net advantage for monster player characters. Monster player characters will gain an advantage until group players get their business in order or convince their crafting peers to increase production.
Let us say the equilibrium state on a server is 1,000 player character defeats to 500 provisions and supplies. If we add a multiplicative coefficient of 2 to the second term, 1,000 = 2 x 500.
As an aside, the reason I chose player character defeats as a balancing force was because of delving missions. Based on my reading, players characters suffer numerous defeats completing them. How can the Free Peoples possibly be winning when they are suffering so many defeats?
Now let us consider what happens if Mister Orion cannot balance character defeats versus provision and supply production. The server cannot track player character defeats. Player character defeats vary wildly from week to week. Provision and supply production varies wildly from week to week. It proves impossible to establish a baseline for comparing the two factors. I sincerely have no desire to cause unhappiness for anyone so in these cases, another balancing mechanism must be found. If no balancing mechanism can be found, the idea cannot work.
Other possible balancing mechanisms:
The Free Peoples start out each week at a net disadvantage of 1,000. This disadvantage declines as crafting player characters produce provisions and supplies. When server wide provision and supply production reaches 1,000 or more, equilibrium exists in the Ettenmoors. In this case, monster player characters start every week with an advantage.
The Free Peoples start out each week at a net disadvantage of 1,000. This disadvantage declines as crafting player characters produce provisions and supplies. When server wide provision and supply production reaches 1,000 or more, equilibrium exists in the Ettenmoors. Crafting player characters can over produce provisions and supplies to a maximum of 2,000. In this case, monster player characters start every week with an advantage but if crafting player characters generate enough material, the advantage eventually swings in favor of the Free Peoples.
Every time a monster player character defeats player character, it generates 10 points of monster advantage. One unit of provisions and supplies generates one point of player character advantage. Monster players can also generate advantage by turning in the bits and bobs they gain from landscape quests. Advantage swings from moment to moment depending on if crafting player characters can keep up with the advantage resulting from defeats and monster player questing. Maximum advantage caps exists to prevent a blow out.
The system works as describe above but factors in the number of monster player characters active in the Ettenmoors at any particular moment.
Please let me think about this some more. Any crafting system connected to the Ettenmoors must prevent blow outs in either direction. Perhaps the best way to prevent a blow out is to hinge gains on the number of characters present on each side. For example, if 10 monster player characters face 50 player characters, the monster player characters need some huge bonus to compensate. How does all of this work with strong-point control?
Maybe monster players get gigantic siege engines when numbers swing in favor of the Free Peoples, allowing them to reach and demolish siege troops (players camping a strong-point).
Again, please pardon my intrusion into a place where I do not belong. I find this fun to think about. How do you balance a place where imbalance of numbers is the norm? Please understand, I am not suggesting anything _should_ happen. I am merely pondering possibilities.
Obviously this is exactly what we need in a pvp zone.... more PVE.... [sarcasm] - Hells teeth... what are you thinking !! And ahem ahem... LAG anyone? Talk about the dog walking the owner....
https://i.ibb.co/6NwF1v0/pvepvp.webp
Orion, thank you for your posts and the communication in this thread. They have been highly informative. I am very excited for these coming features/changes! :)
Hallelujah! This, plus the Carry-alls, are my most-wanted QoL improvements for the Moors for a long time. Glad to see the map will be a skill and not an item :)Quote:
Originally Posted by SSG_Orion
-Bel
I think a monthly quest (which could either have separate objectives or be "Complete Weekly four times") with a gold tracery token might be a better solution and incentive (I know it would be for me). This would be 12 across an entire year. These would have to be tokens and not random, however, as the random golds already have around a 50/50 chance of being useless (on a character with no golds at all), and even higher chances of being useless on a character with some or many gold traceries. 12 tokens across a year would motivate players, but won't take away from other events and content that grant tracery tokens (since we need 23 of them per build per character, with some having two or three builds).Quote:
Originally Posted by SSG_Orion
-Bel
I would support this.Quote:
Originally Posted by SSG_Orion
-Bel
Orion, all of this is a noble goal and SSG trying to get players to return to the Moors is very much appreciated. Rewards in many cases are a nice carrot to chase. The problem I am seeing here is that even if you get people to come back to the Moors, it will be temporary unless you address the problems that drove people (mostly creeps) away from the Moors. Nothing here in the incentives gives creeps a reason to believe they stand a chance to survive any better with the new rewards than the current configuration. The main problem of creeps being in a less than ideal place is still there. Yes, you are changing things up a bit and changing Isendeep Mine from a creep/freep keep to a delving owned keep but that is just the same old PVE with a new name. It really does not change or help creep survivability in the Moors. It does not address the current movement problems accross the map. None of these changes address the poor behavior on the part of just a few individuals that have caused the Moors to be somewhat toxic and are the reason behind some of the recent changes to maps. The rewards you are offering freepside stand a very real chance to turn the Moors into a freep PVE farming area which is temporary at best. Maybe consider implementing changes to the Moors that make it better for PVP and then implement the rewards to keep people playing in the Moors. Please focus on good and rewarding PVP first. The current proposed incentives are nice but they are focused on bringing freeps out to farm and PVE for better PVE raid gear and items. At a minimum, please don't offer freeps anything useful outside of the Moors. Think back to the ancient times when we used to go out to the Moors and turn in quests just to get destiny points so that we would have them to buy the perks for instances and raids.
its true that there are a lot of tokens of valour in many vaults. so these existing tokens should maybe not be used for too important a reward system in any revamp. It is worth noting that they were all Earned however. There is an opportunity here to introduce another currency to run in parallel (ssg may have some particular expertise in this regard ! ) . by running a minor and major currency you may be able to please the most amount of players. Minors could be turned in for either moors or PvE rewards. Majors could be rewarded by the new 'package system' proposed and could be exchanged for better and different rewards likewise for moors PvE. It is worthy of note that currently freeps have a much heavier advancement burden to complete each update and therefore a more intense reward weighting seems reasonable under the current state of play. If it still remains possible for rewards to be spent on either side (comms) then this also needs consideration as to the outcomes. Tokens that can be traded with no RNG component and swapping have , i believe , the greatest chance of maximising player engagement. It is also noteworthy that many players have a freindbase of moors and PvE participants who are currently exclusive to each other. Rewards that may be exchanged for some PvE benefit could attract some casual play into the moors and boost overall enjoyment. To that end however I would make tier 2 jewellery offer better audacity and let the t3 t4 gear remain the goal for committed players with a tweak to the cost , currently in the realms of 105,000 comms for a full set of t4. Players who would love to 'have a go' on their alts are basically priced out of the game on this basis and may suffer 'fatigue' on the same old toon. So to be clear i would not offer the 'suite' of rewards being discussed but an amount of a new token so that the player can reward themselves as they please. The level of reward should reflect the cost and pacing of progression and goal achievement or gaining competitive status. Ultimately.....some players will turn up not for the baubles but the sheer joy of it....but sadly those numbers are insufficient and the reward system of play is only right and proper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilan
maybe just let the TOV's be applied to the reward track albeit with a high conversion cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dranak123
What I would like to see is additional ranks. Once I hit 15 I pretty much lost all interest in pvmp. Bump that up to 20 or 25 and I'll head back.
Hi Orion
Would it be possible to add in the class armour barter npcs from The Sundering of Osgilliath old PvMP map to Glan Vraig or make the armour available as cosmetics?
It would be great to acquire more of the cosmetic appearances that are currently not available.
Thanks
Why not give players the option as to which route they want to go?
I.e., You could give players an option to choose between generic or specific for each tier. Limitations would be that you can only choose one, or hold one of the quests from that tier at any one time. You can cancel to grab the other one before completing that tier for the week, but would have to restart progress.
Other thoughts: The renown/infamy for the tiers seem quite low. Particularly for the final tier, the amount of effort and coordination required to get them done across a week, you would likely earn way more infamy/renown and comms by just fighting - or, camping people at GV/grams with ranged pew pew fights. As such, I'd suggest 7.5k infamy/renown for completing the final tier, 3000 infamy/renown for tier 2 and 2500 infamy/renown for tier 3. Really give players a reason to consider these at the forefront of their mind, and strive towards that final one.
It would be nice to see this being a) so rewarding, and b) so varied in the quest locations required, that we see a bit more roaming of the map.
I'd also suggest that commendations have some sort of direct scaling to the renown/inf reward. In your proposal, you have:
- Pack 3: 3x Comms for each renown/inf
- Pack 2: 5x Comms for each renown/inf
- Pack 1: 4x Comms for each renown/inf
Perhaps to make it friendly to newer players who are after audacity, it could be highest at tier 3.
A concern I have might be whether or not the weekly's are achievable in small groups.
This is a great idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by SSG_Orion
Although why not have bartered audacity gear from the vendors be disenchantable, too? Even if it was pithy?
Those are already on the barterer, as the Tier 3 PvMP armour.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyran86
I am curious. I thought the creep map changes were intended to encourage small group PVP and get away from large raid groups in the Moors. Now, there are incentives being considered that require very large raid groups to complete the quests?
Here's a thought. How about making rank actually worth perusing and ban hammer clear farmers.
- R15 BIS Cloak selection box with every level increase
- R12-R15 Char Frames
- R12-R15 tiered discounts on PvMP gear (R15 gets ALL PvMP gear free)
- R12-R15 gated weapon cosmetics
- R15 + PvMP deed gated armour cosmetics
I spent years grinding my face off on a small server, pre-mass server merge. Every time I go to GV feel disrespected.
I did not know this thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeviternus
Then leave. If you truly think that new people won't join the moors then it is 100% a dead zone. What Orion does here absolutely WILL draw new people and returning players to the zone with proper incentivization and that is the ONLY way to maintain a PvP zone because there will be a trickle leaving so you must maintain an incoming trickle as well. Your philosophy of "Just let us shuffle" brought the moors to where it is. Happy to see Orion trying to bring it out of that mud.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoobySnackz
On the matter of incentivization. Overall I like the ideas. But as others have said the comms rewards need to be significant. Getting full Audacity on either side is a significant slog and this can be a turnoff. Big comm rewards from these weeklies would certainly alleviate some of those feelings of grindiness.
Mhm, it seems the direction PvMP is heading changes by how the devs feel that week. But one thing is certain when it's all said and done, it's still going to be a lagfest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nioca
Incentives and rewards are a great idea. Shuffling is going to happen no matter what. People go to the spots where there will be other people, thus the shuffle. The reward examples listed lean toward rewarding freeps for mostly PVE activities. Yes, I expect it will draw large groups of freeps to PVE in the Moors and if they can get embers, traceries, essences and enhancement runes it will be a great location to farm for PVE items. I don't see much of anything to draw creeps to the Moors and keep them there to be food for freeps. The reasons that most of the creeps gave up on the Moors are still there and I doubt the PVE rewards listed are going to draw them back in large numbers and keep them in the Moors. Hopefully I am wrong and hopefully giving a few rewards to PVE will help the Moors and not create a messy farm fest situation. I wish SSG would address the PVP problems and add the PVE bonuses later as a bonus instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Moneyforever
No incentives, as outlined in this thread are aimed at "very large" raid groups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nioca
More missions and grind. No longer a social group having fun. More mission junk is not pvp
No it wont, the shuffle is here to stay right next to the lag, and you'll come to the same conclusion eventually.Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Moneyforever
Changing the map does not change mentality, and what little new or returning players is generated, will soon go extinct once again.
Also, as was mentioned by someone else, Orion wants smaller skirmishes between players, but then wants to add back the raid PvE of the delving. Do you really believe that people are going to raid up for the dragon, then break up into smaller groups to go back to PvP? If so then you have bigger faith in the community than I do.
I'm still waiting for all these new and returning players that were supposed to be generated with the LOTR dumpster fire show from Amazon lol.