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Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta
*nods* Exactly. I believe the take home message about this whole XP reducer/mentoring - and the like - issue is that at the end of the day people just want to be able to experience as much of the content as they can as it was intended to be, i.e. on-level. And i don't think any can argue that that's not a reasonable request.
Well, this is certainly a major motivator, I think it is a mistake to say that this is the ONLY reason for the XP slider.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruthelia
One is to help keep groups together. I play with my wife. I would like to leave and do a few things on my own that she does not want to do . . . to finish off some deeds or explore a region (filled with spiders) that she refuses to go into. Or I would like to volunteer my minstrel services to some kin-mates going on an instance. However, I do not want to return with more XP than she has.
Another problem in travelling as a couple is that the adventures - too easy even for solo play - are particularly light for duo-play. Reducing XP would allow us to adventure in situations that are risky for two players - but those situations pile up XP extremely quickly.
I have another group where 6 of us are adventuring together where the problem is even worse. But the problem would not exist if, between GROUP sessions, I could turn XP off. And a group such as this needs even more help keeping their XP down enough to make adventures in a given region dangerous enough to be exciting.
And I, and some of my kinmates, who are in a roleplaying kinship, would like to create some characters that simply 'live' in a particular region - and they stay at a level that is consistent with that region. A shire-hobbit who never exceeds Level 10 or an Old Forest warden stuck at 15th level.
A part of my interest is not in experiencing content on-level, but simply getting to know my character's abilities. I get abilities thrown at me so quickly and the game is so easy that I am never challenged to really learn what my character is capable of. Slowing XP makes the game more challenging.
And, actually, one of the things I would very much like to do is to play a character as if he actually is a character in an adventure story. Unfortunately, LOTRO has been made so easy that there is not much adventure anymore. The story created for any character - of chasing down green and blue mods - is too boring to read, let alone to create.
I actually have a character ready (a hobbot warden standing by in Little Delving) ready to start an adventure as soon as I can control his XP in a way that will prevent the story from getting boring by leveling too rapidly as he adventures through Middle Earth.
Let not forget crafting. The only way I can make armour for my Low level toons is one of My high level toons a LM set my bear to kill off Bears auto attack while watching tv. All I have to do is click on the dead bears. Woopie Doo.
Can we say Lazyness.
Before you go well your low level toons can do that. By the time I get the supplys I dont need them becuse my toons are to high of a level. So Crafting is Worthless Unless you have one Main Crafter that willing to collect all the ores so all your newbie accounts can have good armour. Where a xp reducer could give the Newbies a challange.
One thing I know Power levels dont care about Crafting all they want is to get to the end game asap then go to the next game.
After following the arguments this far, I have shifted my preferences in favor of a time honored method in RPGs: The Level up button.
* You don't stop gaining XP, so there is no risk of "getting stuck".
* Anyone who likes the current system does not need to switch this system on, or even notice it's existance.
* Caters to different playstyles: The RP:er and the Completionist among them.
* As easy to do as the XP throttle. Checking for leveling and kicking off the level up code is likely done at one place only.
* Good for power levelers: By constantly staying a level behind you get more XP for the same quests/mobs, which brings you to the cap faster.
* Good for the hard core players: You can do only yellow/orange mobs and quests without being forced to skip masses of content.
* It's a well know mechanic, which is unlikely to confuse people.
* No extra customer support. Since you can get back where you would have been, level wise, by clicking on the level up button, it works as an undo button for those who managed to turn this on by mistake.
* You can choose what content you will do on level. Both Lone lands and western ND on level? No problem.
* If you have "saved up" a level or two, you can skip over perceived gaps in contend by leveling up. Or past stuff you find boring.
* Better customer retention: Since people who cross over here in groups from other games can keep their group together level wise, they are more likely to buy extra months.
Every time your XP brings you past a level boundary, you get a ding saying "New level! Click on the level up button to advance in level.". That way you will get a reminder that the feature is on, and how to advance.
This is functionally the same as the "XP wallet", expressed in a (IMHO) more elegant way.
Agreed; you make excellent points. That would work perfectly for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan_the_Assassin
A Mentoring system would also address most of my issues (and be better in several important ways - such as letting me help lower-level friends). But I think the Level-Up Button would be a great start, and probably much easier to implement.
As long as it's one level at a time, it would work for me as well. Otherwise, I can easily see myself collecting two or three levels' worth of level-ups. I would most definitely not want to jump three levels from clicking a single button.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beleg
But yes, a level up button would probably work for me.
A mentoring system that allows you to self-mentor might work as well, though it's a bit more cumbersome mechanic.
I, too, could accept this system as long as one gets only one level per click of the button. Otherwise I would be sitting with a choice to be either 30th level (if I do not click the button) or 36th level (if I click it), with no option to become 31st level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beldacar
I think it is important that this be an option that a player can turn on or off. Since the start, I have looked for options where those who do not want to use the system will experience no change whatsoever. A "Talk to trainer to level" option means that those who want to level quickly under the existing system can simply not activate this option and notice no change in the game.
I think the programming would be more difficult, however. So we have a balance. Increased programming costs vs. decreased support costs. (I think the support cost issue is a bookey man used to frighten Turbine away from this feature. However, if I am wrong, or if the boogey man is working, then some sort of increased programming to deflect this support cost issue is required.)
I would have to agree. Mix both system to help people. So crafters can craft what they want before going to the next level.
Wow, this thread has gone all over the place! I think the above says it best for me in what I'm thinking and feeling about the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiempko
The mentoring idea doesn't do much for me.
Sure, why not. A level up button (that only takes you up a single level regardless of how much XP you've accumulated) would get the job done just as well. Although ideally I still prefer an XP toggle or throttle.
Still with the level up button, you continue to accumulate XP but aren't forced to level automatically when you have the required XP to level. You could then accumulate several levels worth of XP, and then whenever you choose, you level up a single level, or if you have enough accumulated XP you can choose to level up multiple times. Nobody could then complain that they are stuck and have to grind forever to reach the next level.
I do see some potential issues with this, however. For instance, you could accumulate 60 levels worth of XP by fighting level 10 mobs by never leveling past 7. So, perhaps there would need to be limit as to how many levels worth of XP you could accumulate (like 2 or 3 levels).
All you'd need to do is continue calculating experience gain based on actual experience earned, not level. So as long as you had no levels "banked", you'd earn experience based on your level. With one level banked, you'd earn experience based on your level +1, etc. This would avoid the problem of powerlevelling by doing a lot of quests on-level and banking more experience than you would have had you been levelling normally.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxFire
In this scenario, if you could actually grind your way to 10 levels above your current (where normally everything would be gray), you would no longer gain experience from [adjusted] on-level mobs/quests.
-Forjo
Fire fox that done already. Basicly set it up like the exp the game has now. Level 30 Player can not get exp from Gray quests. If you set the xp Let say 3,000,000 get you to level 30. Guessing becuse I dont have a computer that can run lotro. Now let take that and say your level 15 and you have 3,000,000 exp just as a level 30 Player Have a color Mark on the Quest Red and the rest of the quest show Gray. So we would know how hard quest is But we will also know we dont get xp from them.
Okay, that could work. So basically your accumulated XP level sets the amount of XP you get from mob kills and quests, even though your actual level is lower.Quote:
Originally Posted by Celt_Ainvar
I have a 10th level hobbit warden.
Under this proposal, I could turn leveling off and stay a 10th level hobbit warden for as long as I want.
This means that I have two routes to 60th level.
Route 1: Continue to level, moving from region to region as I do so.
Route 2: Stop leveling, and earn all of my XP doing those things a Level 10 character can do for XP.
Route 1 is obviously the faster method. Not only do you get XP from monsters slain, you will also get XP from quests and deeds completed along the way. Route 2, on the other hand, will run out of doable quests and deeds. Route 2 is NOT an exploit for getting to 60 faster.
Assume, after a significant amount of time as a Bounder, I have happened to have accumulated enough XP to reach 60th level. I visit a trainer, level 50 times, and POOF, I am 60th level.
I am a 60th level character with virtually no virtues. I have no legendary items or legendary traits. I have completed none of the class quests. I have Level 10 armor and equipment and whatever money I had made as a Shire warden in the many months I decided not to level.
There is no sense in which this can be considered an exploit that we need to protect against.
Virtually no Virtues? :p
You do make some pretty good points Tiempko. I suppose it's definitely not a quick way to 60, and whether it's any easier is debatable, and quite honestly I don't have any major problems with someone getting to 60 in that way. I might be a little concerned about the thought of a level 60 character running around who never left the Shire. You hope one's level says SOMETHING about their experience and experiences.
So, ideally I'd like to see some sort of cap that doesn't allow one to accumulate more than a few levels worth of experience, but I'm not all that opposed to there being no limit. The question is, would other players in general or Turbine have a problem with that?
Does anyone know of any examples of other MMORPGs that use a 'level up' button, in which there is or isn't a cap on how much XP a player can bank.
Then let add a timer on the Leveling. One day you can only use the wallet a few times.
This is an enormous advantage. In any mature game there is a large population of players who are at the level cap. They frequently have little to do but repeat a small sliver of the game content. A system where they could, say, "level down" to 25, help someone in the Great Barrows, and get a IXP rune would help everyone. Level-capped players get to go back to fun older content and leveling up players get help in group efforts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruthelia
You can set up a stagnated character right now - they will level up very slowly and eventually stop when things are gray, and you can equip them in lower level gear to balance the higher level. So the XP reducer isn't need for this purpose.
The basic problem with duoing, at least for me, is that the game is already incredibly easy solo (which will get worse with the lone-lands revamp - everything dull now up to level 35.) Whether I gain exp fast or slow is less of a barrier than boredom.
So what that really leaves the experience throttle for is for soloing - basically to replicate a Baldur's Gate experience where you scour each area before moving on to the next. That's a perfectly valid thing to ask for, and it should be requested and sold in these terms.
Some variant of mentoring is more appropriate for the social purposes. And I'd add that the developers are engaged in erasing the group content from the game, and I like social gaming. So anything which encourages people to group (and convinces the devs to stop castrating the existing content) is a good thing, which is why I'd like to see something like mentoring get implemented.
I disagree that an XP throttle isn't good for social gaming. I, for one, have less of an interest in leveling back in order to help out other players, but I WOULD like to take far more opportunities to join with others as I am leveling. As it currently stands, often it is more advantageous for keeping my XP gain low, to do content by myself. If I join with a group to do it, despite getting less XP per mob kill, we often kill significantly more mobs. By myself, I can wend and pick my way through a field of mobs to take out as few of them as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohioastro
Furthermore, I often see LFF/LFM requests for instances or other group content that I'm still on-level for but which I've already completed. Frequently, I would very much LIKE to do these again and help out fellow adventurers, however I choose not to do so because by doing this content a second time (or more) I am leveled faster than I want and make other content I want to do while challenging, trivial.
Ultimately, I very much enjoy grouping with others, it's simply incompatible for my desire to level slower and enjoy more content while challenging.
There are merits to a mentoring system. If such a system were to be built, I would almost certainly use it. When a new Bounder has reached the point where he is ready to explore the Great Barrow, it would be useful for us higher-level Bounders to create a character of the appropriate level to go with him.
However, it would do me no good to always need to seek out another character of the appropriate level so that I can explore a region on-level (or, actually, 2 or 3 levels below-level). If the system allowed me to choose to stay at Level 10 even though my XP was enough for me to be Level 11, 12, or 13, without finding another Level 10 character, then that would be fine.
Otherwise, a mentoring system WOULD NOT provide me with the most valuable uses of an XP toggle or slider.
Another issue is that I think that a mentoring system could take significantly more effort (significantly higher cost) compared to an XP toggle or slider or level-up button. It should be easlier to convince Turbine to spend $500 on a toggle or slider, or $1000 on a level-up button, than $25,000 on a mentoring system.
(These numbers are drawn out of thin air to illustrate a point and do not, in any way, represent an actual estimate of costs.)
But, if Turbine disagrees, I am not going to insist on being right.
AS LONG AS the mentoring system can be used in solo play to keep a character at a given level.
With mentoring I can shroud down to any level below my own, which includes *both* your case and the case of a level 60 who wants to help out a level 30 kinmate. So my point is that the mentoring is a superset of the XP off thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxFire
This is only true if you can level back to whatever level you like, whenever you like, and wherever you like. If the system only allows you to jump back in 5 level increments, or if you have to be in a fellowship, or if you have to be inside of an instance, then such a mentoring system would not adequately fill the role of an XP toggle/throttle or level-up button.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohioastro
I support this option fully, and I would love to see it in the game.
Experiencing content at the level it is intended for is entirely different from experiencing it when you are 10 or so levels above it.
For example, back in SoA, I had a blast doing the Annuminas instances on my hunter for the Annuminas Armour set, but also just for the fun of it. I really enjoyed the instances, as they were fun, but still challenging.
I went back once I hit 60 and tried them again, and the experience is not the same. It's not as challenging, and its not as fun. It is a level 50 instance meant for level 50 players. I can still do Annuminas, but it will never be as enjoyable as it was before.
So, I wanted to have a similar experience on my minstrel with Carn Dum / Urugarth / The Rift/ Helegrod, but unfortunately he leveled right past all that level 50 content alarmingly quickly without getting a chance to do it. Can he still do it now? Yes. But will it still be as challenging, enjoyable, rewarding, and fun as it COULD have been if he were doing it at level 50? No.
Granted, I could have just refused to play on him once he got to 50, and only used him when a CD/URU/Hele group came up, but I don't want to completely shelf my character and be unable to use him in order to enjoy these things at level.
I think that the people who would like to see an XP reducer or on/off option into the game simply want to enjoy all of the wonderful content this game offers at the level intended without rocketing past 80% of it. There are so many fantastic things to do under the level cap that never get done anymore because, frankly, what's the point? The mobs are grey, the rewards useless for a level 60 / level 65, and the instance barely challenging, so why bother?
It would be really nice to be able to enjoy as much content as possible without feeling like I am racing through the levels. As for current end-game content, it is unlikely that Turbine will add another expansion or increase the level cap again for a year or so. There will be plenty of time to do all of that later, but once you level past under-the-cap content, there's really no going back.
Personally, I think it is too easy to get to the level cap as it is. I could easily level my main to 65 strictly doing skirmishes, without even setting foot in Mirkwood. However, that's just my opinion.
Adding an XP reducer or on/off command would give players an OPTION to enjoy content on level, as well as experience the stunningly detailed and beautiful world of Tolkien in ways appropriate to their desires. This is a truly great game, and it has A LOT to offer. As this is an option, it would not effect anyone's playstyle or experience who does not want to use it. I know quite a few people who would use this, and I would most certainly use it myself.
So please, Turbine, consider adding this XP Reduction function to the game. It would make a lot of people happy, myself included!
I agree entirely, this game can provide many wonderful experiences beyond just end game content. In my opinion, there is no reason not to implement some form of xp reducer, it could (and obviously should) be purely optional in order to allow those of us who wish to level slower such an opportunity, but not restrict or change the way others play the game.
This post was quite right about everything, except the idea that the experiences of players in an MMO are mutually independent: that claim is a bit strong, as the Carn Dum example illustrates. Giving an optional route around CD to all actually deprives most of us the option to experience it on-level: you are dependent on the availability of groups to run group content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebeckker
Throtteling XP would lead to more grouping opportunities at lower levels & slightly fewer at cap. So, strictly speaking, it will effect the experience of players who don't opt to use it. And, it my opinion, this is it's main selling point... since 20-hour-a-week player A can now level at an equal pace to 10-hour-a-week to player B, the experience for B has been improved (or spoiled) as A can always be there for on-level adventuring, though B isn't even aware that the zany "XP Reducer" function exists.
I think you're missing the point...players don't play those instances anymore because they're not challenging. Although part of it is because the rewards are useless, that's besides the fact. The reason why the majority of players don't play those instances anymore is because there are new instances that do give out rewards. Even if the majority of players could conceivably park themselves at 50, the desire for the reward would drop, because it's impossible to ignore that there are better rewards at higher levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebeckker