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Re: Efforts towards fixing the lag
Turbine staff eventually took this seriously (or eventually let us know they took it seriously) and obviously worked hard to figure it out.
What they also did, through the forums, is keep telling us there is no problem on their end (that they can see). This was just not said very well. Sapience/Turbine staff kept telling us how no one there was having this issue. Sapience kept pointing out how few players were having this issue and not 100% of players were affected by it. They said it was something either wrong on with an ISP or someone's machine. Honest mistakes to make - but not a smart approach to take in talking about this bug.
Finally, after so many posts and people complaining and telling them how bad it was, how many people in their raid on glff are having issues, they looked into in it and admitted that something must be happening.
Communications were just not handled well - in my opinion. Is it the end of the world - no. Should we cut them some slack - yes. Everyone was trying to solve this, and they made some bad communication choices. Again. Nothing wrong with pointing this out in hopes they will make better communication choices in the future.
With hindsight - they should not have said it was not their fault (it was the ISPs) and they should not have said and keep saying that only a few players had issues - unless they have evidence of exactly how many players had zero lag and issues and how many did.
On the tech side, they became aware of an issue - eventually posted that they agree something is wrong - and they fixed it. So they addressed the issue probably as fast as they were able. Credit to them for that work and success.
Edit: Hurin you have a lot of good points in your longer post 2 posts before this one. I would give up on the liar point though - no one posted "Sapience, you are a Liar!!!!". I don't think anyone thinks that or is saying that.
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Re: Efforts towards fixing the lag
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cindir
What they also did, through the forums, is keep telling us there is no problem on their end (that they can see).
Close. But not quite. They said they could not see any problems on their end. They never said that they knew for a fact that there were no problems on their end. Those are two very different things and the fact that so many people conflate the two is the root cause of all the angst and misdirected anger.
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This was just not said very well. Sapience/Turbine staff kept telling us how no one there was having this issue.
Yet, what if this were true? That was contradictory data that they needed to process and eventually decide to discard. That's just part of the troubleshooting process and not something to deride.
Quote:
Sapience kept pointing out how few players were having this issue and not 100% of players were affected by it.
Which, again, might in fact be true. Or, at least, from the perspective of those not noticing the issue, it might appear to be true that not everyone was affected.
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They said it was something either wrong on with an ISP or someone's machine.
No, they did not. They stated that these could be the cause of lag. They did not state that the cause of this issue had to be either one of those. Again, that's just fundamentally misunderstanding things and what information actually means. . . and what it doesn't.
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Finally, after so many posts and people complaining and telling them how bad it was, how many people in their raid on glff are having issues, they looked into in it and admitted that something must be happening
Finally?
March 21 - Patch to fix the lag.
March 27 - Old Thread closed. This thread created.
March 28 - Sapience acknowledges that there is "something going on" and that investigations are ongoing.
It seems like a lot of people want to pretend that Turbine only started taking this seriously a couple days ago and could have had this fixed a lot sooner if they had only listened to us all originally. That does not seem to be born out by the facts. At most, it took seven days for them to be sure that what people were reporting was beyond the standard internet-based lag and begin investigating this issue in earnest.
[/quote]they should not have said it was not their fault (it was the ISPs)[/QUOTE]
They never said it was not their fault. They allowed for the possibility that it was not their fault. The problem is that they cannot prove a negative. If there was a magic switch they could throw that would light up a green light in their server room for an issue that was "their fault" and a red light when it was "not their fault". . . I'm sure they'd have such a thing installed. But no such thing exists. So when this issue began to become apparent after the other lag issue (that they fixed server-side) stopped masking it, they initially allowed for the possibility that what people were describing was due to factors outside of their control while checking and re-checking their own systems. . . which eventually led them to the cause after gathering a lot more information from users (both privately and publicly).
But they never said "it is not our fault."
--H
P.S. I give up. Not posting again. I can't make people read carefully, think critically, analyze accurately, and critique fairly.
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Re: Efforts towards fixing the lag
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hurin
P.S. I give up. Not posting again. I can't make people read carefully, think critically, analyze accurately
Ironically, it seems that's how many people felt towards Turbine when this all kicked off :p
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Re: Efforts towards fixing the lag
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hurin
Except they never said it wasn't a coding issue. They merely said what their investigation so far was showing. They did not say what it was, nor what it wasn't. They merely provided information about how things looked to them and requested more information.
They never acknowledged in that list of possibilities given by Sapience in that first post of this thread that it might be or could possibly be a coding issue either. And they did too say what it wasn't- it wasn't their data center nor their servers. And closing the thread clearly was not asking for more information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hurin
Your point falls apart where you say: "pretty much said". . . because Sapience's post as he closed that thread "pretty much" said no such thing. You read into things and attached your own meaning to information provided. . . probably colored by your own preconceived notions.
As for the closing of the original thread, were you to actually be charitable and see things from a perspective other than your (obviously biased) own, you might realize that it made sense at that time for Sapience to close that thread since it (at that time) seemed to be addressing a resolved issue and Sapience's points about some lag being out of their hands was not at all inappropriate since it is self-evidently true. Further, as we now know, this is yet another case of people calling just about every performance issue "lag" when in fact, this issue was not apparently network latency/dropped packet-based as "lag" is commonly understood to be.
I 've had exactly one type of "lag" the same kind since U6, through this thread AND the previous thread. I seen the same descriptions of lag in the closed thread as I've seen in this thread. By their own admission even now, there's obviously more than one area where coding is messed up. Closing a thread simply because they restarted their servers and "resolved" an issue when clearly people were saying it was not fixed was not the right thing to do. I'm not alone in my (obviously biased) opinion on that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hurin
So, in other words, you give kudos to the OP for fighting the long twilight struggle against the evil and tyranny of Turbine without even seeming to notice that Turbine left this thread open because they wanted to be sure that some other previously unknown issue wasn't now causing people to see "lag" where they had thought only one "lag" issue existed prior (that they had just fixed). So, they left this thread open, gathered information, shared information, and eventually solved the problem. It's bizarre that you would use their doing so as a means to attack the communication and forum moderation practices. The fact is that this thread is here, remained open, and the problem was solved because Turbine did things right and behaved reasonably from the perspective of those not blinded by bizarre animosity towards a gaming studio.
That's just it! The lag was never "fixed". Even tho they tried to play it off like it was. I give kudos to the OP for reopening a thread about an issue that had been "resolved and closed". This has nothing to do with my animosity towards anyone....and everything to do with having a playable game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hurin
Which brings us to this thread where what was essentially a message of: "We continue to investigate but so far have no indications that this is server-based or datacenter-based" many interpreted (wrongly) to mean: "This isn't our fault and you guys are screwed because it's out of our hands! Sucks to be you!" They never said any such thing. . . "pretty much" or otherwise. They provided information in a form those technically minded and privy to troubleshooting such things found found to be objective and fact-based. So long as we didn't sprinkle in our own petty grudges and bizarre hostility towards a game company, there was nothing to get upset about.
Nothing to get upset about? It's obvious you haven't experienced these lag issues because that is the cause of my frustration within this thread, not this "bizarre hostility towards a gaming company" phrase that you seem to relish using. If you haven't experienced these issues, then why are you here in this thread? Provoke much?
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Re: Efforts towards fixing the lag
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hurin
Which brings us to this thread where what was essentially a message of: "We continue to investigate but so far have no indications that this is server-based or datacenter-based" many interpreted (wrongly) to mean: "This isn't our fault and you guys are screwed because it's out of our hands! Sucks to be you!" They never said any such thing. . . "pretty much" or otherwise. They provided information in a form those technically minded and privy to troubleshooting such things found found to be objective and fact-based.
--H
This was why some people got ( rightly ) mistaken though. They should have provided the information in a form that made sense to the average person who plays the game, not in a language that just those who are 'technically minded and privy to troubleshooting such things' understand. A lot of frustration could have been avoided by explaining it for those who aren't. You can't blame people for getting the wrong end of the stick, when then information given to them was not in terms they would understand. With some luck it's a lesson learned.
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Re: Efforts towards fixing the lag
It's great you have it nailed down and have a fix coming.
As for the statement on this didn't effect many players on the number of tickets or unique posters in these threads you are dead wrong. Many people had this problem but for whatever reasons they don't post or submit tickets for them. I bet a lot of people don't come to the forums or know how to submit a ticket. Ask people in game if they are having these problems and then ask them if they reported them in any way. I bet you will see a big difference in your numbers then.
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Re: Efforts towards fixing the lag
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hurin
On the contrary, it's "lame" to call someone a liar without even a modicum of evidence that what they said was untrue. Actually, that's worse than "lame." But do you know what's worse? Doubling-down on such behavior when it is pointed out to you. The decent thing to do would be to retract your unfounded accusation and apologize. Something tells me that won't be happening. This is the internet after all where you're free to be yourself without all those silly societal norms circumscribing your behavior.
I didn't call him a liar I said he wasn't credible and that is absolutely true. It doesn't matter if they intentinally misled us, or were just lazy about how they tested it, but either way the statements lack all credibility. I don't need some smoking gun to conclude that since I understand basic statistics. The fact pattern presented is HIGHLY IMPROBABLE. It is highly unlikely that two different samples can experience uniform but differing results. For those that don't intuitively understand the stats I'll fill you in.
First of all, it's an issue in the client code so it is highly likely that everyone actually has the bug in the first place. Everyone has it, some just arent as keenly aware of their surroundings. But for the sake of argument, let's just say that for some unknown reason it doesnt affect all machines in a noticeable way. Let's assume the probability it effects a machine is some number p.
I know for a fact that at least 20 people in my kin all experience the problem. I don't know anything about anyone else, but I know the guys that I talk to on a regular basis and we all experience the exact same problem. But in fairness, let's say my group is some crazy outlier, and that the probability of us all experiencing the problem is only 1%. That means the probability for any one person experiencing the problem is 79% (1%^(1/20)). So p=79%
Sapience said he spoke to several people that tested extensively and none of them experience the problem. Well we know that (1-p) = 21%. So, for even just 5 people to all not experience the bug would amount to a 0.04% chance. That just isn't credible.
I'll make it simple for you. P(Credible) is defined as the probability of being credible. T is defined as the number of people Sapience claimed that he spoke to that tested it extensively and discovered no problem. N is defined as any number of people that you are confident are experiencing the problem out of a sample of N. P is subjectively defined as the probability that a group of N people are actually uniformly experiencing the problem. Therefore....
P(Credible) = (1-P^(1/N))^T
We know that N is large. It's at least 20 (my kinship) and could be larger. So that means that P^(1/N) is very near 100% for any reasonable P. But be conservative and assume that N is only 20 and that P is 1 hundredth of a percent. Well, 0.01%^(1/20) = 63%. We know from Sapience's post that T is several, but let's say it is only 5. Even then P(Credible) = 0.68%
Anyone that understands basic probability theory will know that Turbine's assertion that none of them were experiencing the problem just defies complete logic unless my kin is just some insane outlier- a several sigma Black Swan like event. The fact that several other kins reported the exact same thing leads me to believe that is a virtual impossibility.
So don't lecture me on etiquette and evidence. The math doesn't lie. I don't know who raised you, but I would have thought that they would have taught you some basic math and critical reasoning skills. I call this a triple-down.
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Re: Efforts towards fixing the lag
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bastiat1
I didn't call him a liar I said he wasn't credible and that is absolutely true. It doesn't matter if they intentinally misled us, or were just lazy about how they tested it, but either way the statements lack all credibility. I don't need some direct smoking gun to conclude that because I understand basic statistics and the fact pattern presented is HIGHLY IMPROBABLE. It is highly unlikely that two different large samples can experience uniform but differing results. For those that don't intuitively understand the stats I'll fill you in.
First of all, it's an issue in the client code so it is highly likely that everyone actually has the bug in the first place. Everyone has it, some just arent as keenly aware of their surroundings. But for the sake of argument, let's just say that for some unknown reason it doesnt affect all machines in a noticeable way. Let's assume the probability it effects a machine is some number P.
I know for a fact that at least 20 people in my kin all experience the problem. I don't know anything about anyone else, but I know the guys that I talk to on a regular basis and we all experience the exact same problem. But in fairness, let's say my group is some crazy outlier, and that the probability of us all experiencing the problem is only 1%. That means the probability for any one person experiencing the problem is 79% (1%^(1/20)). So p=79%
Sapience said he spoke to several people that tested extensively and none of them experience the problem. Well we know that (1-p) = 21%. So, for even just 5 people to all not experience the bug would amount to a 0.04% chance. That just isn't credible.
I'll make it simple for you. P(Credible) is defined as the probability of being credible. T is defined as the number of people Sapience claimed that he spoke to that tested it extensively and discovered no problem. N is defined as any number of people that you are confident are experiencing the problem out of a sample of N. P is subjectively defined as the probability that a group of N people are actually uniformly experiencing the problem. Therefore....
P(Credible) = (1-P^(1/N))^T
We know that N is large. It's at least 20 (my kinship) and could be larger. So that means that P^(1/N) is very near 100% for any reasonable P. But be conservative and assume that N is only 20 and that P is 1 hundredth of a percent. Well, 0.01%^(1/20) = 63%. We know from Sapience's post that T is several, but let's say it is only 5. Even then P(Credible) = 0.68%
Anyone that understands basic probability theory will know that Turbine's assertion that none of them were experiencing the problem just defies complete logic unless my kin is just some insane outlier- a several sigma Black Swan like event. The fact that several other kins reported the exact same thing leads me to believe that is a virtual impossibility.
So don't lecture me on etiquette and evidence. The math doesn't lie. I don't know who raised you, but I would have thought that they would have taught you some basic math and critical reasoning skills through your upbringing. I call this a triple-down.
Math doesn't put you in the room when Sapience spoke with his co-workers. Therefore, you can't possibly know what they told him. Therefore, you can't possibly have evidence that he was lying about what they told him. Therefore, you just wasted a lot of typing on irrelevancies.
Not to mention that you lost all credibility when you said "I didn't call him a liar." When you say you find it impossible to believe something that someone told you, you are saying that they are lying.
Nice post though. Hope you enjoyed writing it. Silly as it was.
Best Regards,
H
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Re: Efforts towards fixing the lag
Sapience never asked me and I have the lag which occured after U6. Try and kill trolls, trees and spiders as a Warden when lag helps out with your gambits. Plus what happens is that when I exit the game it drops to, "Lotroclient has stopped working, Windows will try to find a solution and close the program." Of which I have to actually click on the close program button. I am told by many kin members that this happens to them and then there are some kin members that it doesn't happen to. Only the lag. I totally believe it's a code problem, and not a server problem.
I don't know how to report the 'Lotroclient has stopped working' problem because there is no screenshot I can take, nor do I know where to find the data to upload to Turbine to inform them.
(I just wanted to prove to you that Lord_Fear is right!)
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Re: Efforts towards fixing the lag
Nice the bug was found now when you fix this turbine? it's 1 month now i think it's time .
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Re: Efforts towards fixing the lag
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hurin
Therefore, you can't possibly know what they told him.
Huh? He told us what they told him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sapience
To answer your question, yes we do play. In fact I played both Saturday and Sunday this weekend for several hours both days. My better half was playing in the same room and neither of us experienced any lag or hitching. I should point out that she was grouped with friends from the UK. Neither commented on lag or hitching during the 4-5 hours they were grouped.
This AM, just to make sure I wasn't having great luck, I checked with a number of other employees who play and they also mentioned that they experienced no lag nor did anyone (including again, players from other countries and widely dispersed around the US) comment on having issues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sapience
Yes I have. I've logged in both from here at work (my desktop here isn't a screaming game rig, but it's decent and out connection while good is shared with several hundred people), at home on 2 different desktop PCs hardwired to my home LAN and two different notebooks on that same network connected via WiFi ( I have comcast cable). I've even player with 4 machines at home all logged in and playing together (my family plays). All machine are of varying stats from very good to "I may have spent a lot more money than I needed to". I didn't experience any lag on any of the machines either during Solo play nor while grouped.
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Re: Efforts towards fixing the lag
Quote:
Originally Posted by
knowfere
They never acknowledged in that list of possibilities given by Sapience in that first post of this thread that it might be or could possibly be a coding issueeither.
He says over and over again that they are still investigating their side of things and double-checking even their original fix. But, further, it's silly to get angry at them for not giving you an exhaustive list of things that it could be. I honestly don't think you actually understand the concept of "proving a negative." When they say that their testing is not showing anything on their end, that is not the same thing (nor are they attempting to say) that the problem is definitely not on their end. They are merely giving you information.
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And they did too say what it wasn't- it wasn't their data center nor their servers.
Again, saying "we don't see any indications of x" is not the same thing as saying "We know for a fact that x does not exist." I mean, this is just critical thinking and logic 101. Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. Turbine understands this as do many reading this thread. Yet there will always be people (apparently) who see someone saying: "I don't smell cheese in the house" as a declarative, factual statement that there is definitely not cheese in the house.
Try this: Imagine you are the head of the CIA. And you are asked if there are any Russian spies hiding in the agency. Can you say with 100% certainty that there are no spies? No. You can't. You can't prove that they don't exist. All you can do is demonstrate that you have looked very hard for them and haven't found them. That's the inability to prove a negative. You can't prove that something does not exist. You can only prove that they do exist once it is discovered.
Turbine, likewise, is unable to prove a negative. Being unable to do so and tell you with certainty what isn't causing the problem and what is, they merely provided you their best guesses while simultaneously assuring you that that they aren't ruling anything out. And here you are, misinterpreting them and being, er, poopy, about it.
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I 've had exactly one type of "lag" the same kind since U6, through this thread AND the previous thread. I seen the same descriptions of lag in the closed thread as I've seen in this thread. By their own admission even now, there's obviously more than one area where coding is messed up.
Your point? They fixed a prior lag issue last month. There was another issue. They gathered info about it, spent about 4-7 days confirming that it was a widespread issue and something they needed to address since it wasn't standard "lag", and then spent the next two weeks isolating the cause and developing a fix. These are just basic facts. . . so what's your point?
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Closing a thread simply because they restarted their servers and "resolved" an issue. . .
Again demonstrating that you're just not clear on the facts. They didn't just restart the server. They patched the server. In other words, they changed the code on the servers to fix an issue they knew was causing lag.
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. . .when clearly people were saying it was not fixed was not the right thing to do. I'm not alone in my (obviously biased) opinion on that.
And yet here's this thread. Started the same day as the other one was closed. And it's still going. If Turbine was so set on just shutting people up about it and sweeping the issue under the rug. . . why was this thread allowed to stay open? Why wasn't it deleted? Seriously, you need to answer that question. Because this thread's mere existence and what has transpired in it tends to make your position untenable.
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Nothing to get upset about? It's obvious you haven't experienced these lag issues because that is the cause of my frustration within this thread, not this "bizarre hostility towards a gaming company" phrase that you seem to relish using. If you haven't experienced these issues, then why are you here in this thread? Provoke much?
Because you and others are saying things that aren't true, attributing meaning to words that defies common sense, and overall making false accusations and misrepresenting what happened.
I'm far from a Turbine fan lately. I've been quite critical of them for the past year or two due to several of their business decisions. But when I see dishonesty, bad logic, or just plain wrongheaded analysis used to trash others unfairly, I tend to feel compelled to post and point it out. Which is what I've done.
Turbine knew they had a lag problem that they could document and see via their own testing and logs. They fixed that on the 21st. They then continued to get reports of people having "lag" even though the "lag" they knew about was fixed (which they confirmed and reconfirmed). So, understandably, they took a few days to investigate as the reports continued to pile up. By the 27-28th they posted that they were looking into this and that they weren't ruling anything out. All of that is entirely reasonable. It sorta speaks volumes that you guys are so hellbent on making that 6-7 day gap a federal case.
--H
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Re: Efforts towards fixing the lag
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lord_Fear
It's great you have it nailed down and have a fix coming.
As for the statement on this didn't effect many players on the number of tickets or unique posters in these threads you are dead wrong. Many people had this problem but for whatever reasons they don't post or submit tickets for them. I bet a lot of people don't come to the forums or know how to submit a ticket. Ask people in game if they are having these problems and then ask them if they reported them in any way. I bet you will see a big difference in your numbers then.
Agreed. Perhaps they should have a system in place to monitor chat channels for key terms. Or simply log in every once in awhile and look for themselves.
Turbine should clean up their bug submission system, or update their current one for efficiency. Having one closed for being submitted to the wrong turbine employee is simply UNACCEPTABLE in my eyes. The employee could very simply forward the info we took time writing instead of disregarding it.
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Re: Efforts towards fixing the lag
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bastiat1
Huh? He told us what they told him.
Oh, so you believe him now. Excellent. I'm sure he accepts your apology as well.
Best Regards,
H
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Re: Efforts towards fixing the lag
This whole bug submission / organisation process does seem to be a bit of a shambles. It's almost as though they don't actually want to see bugs, just give the impression that they are getting them. Kind of reminds me of the cartoon complaints boxes, that goes down a chute and ends up in a dumpster out back. I'm sure that's not actually the case, but it does kind of give that feeling.
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Re: Efforts towards fixing the lag
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hurin
Oh, so you believe him now. Excellent. I'm sure he accepts your apology as well.
Apologize for what? I never called him a liar. I stated that his assertion lacked all credibility and I've proved that mathematically. Whether the lack of credibility arose intentionally or as a result of a lack of diligence in his investigation I don't know and haven't presumed to know. I just know that it is a virtual impossibility that the several people that Sapience polled didn't have problems. I reserve "liar" for intent and reserve "misstatements" or "incredible statements" for mistakes. I'm not apologizing for jack. You've attributed the intent, not I.
Your premise that my math was wrong because there was no evidence of what Sapience asserted was destroyed and yet you still seem to cling to some strange notion that defies the laws of mathematics. The ability of human self delusion is really incredible.
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Re: Efforts towards fixing the lag
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bastiat1
Apologize for what? I never called him a liar.
You can keep saying that. But here is what you said. . .
I find it impossible to believe that he really sampled this many people and no one was experiencing the problems that are endemic to the code itself.
So, you either believe that Sapience lied about how many people he sampled. Or he lied about what they told him.
Quote:
I stated that his assertion lacked all credibility and I've proved that mathematically.
That's the downright funniest thing I've read in a long time. You can't prove "mathematically" what Sapience was told. Nor how many people he asked. We have only his word. And you have outright said that what he said you find "impossible to believe." Ergo, you think he is lying. Now you just lack the courage to stand behind what you said.
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I reserve "liar" for intent and reserve "misstatements" or "incredible statements" for mistakes.
No, actually, you assert that people are lying, then pretend that you're not because you never actually used the word "liar." It would be nice if you would stand behind what you write instead of just trying to weasel out via word-games and silly equations that demonstrate nothing.
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I'm not apologizing for jack.
That's a shame. Since it' really your only recourse at this point.
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Your premise that my math was wrong because there was no evidence of what Sapience asserted was destroyed and yet you still seem to cling to some strange notion that defies the laws of mathematics. The ability of human self delusion is really incredible.
You're hilarious. I see we've moved on to just asserting that counter-arguments have been "destroyed." But really, thanks for the chuckle. Look, bud, something either happened or it didn't. Either Sapience talked to those people, or he didn't. Either they told him what he says they told him, or they didn't. Math doesn't enter into it. It's actually somewhat disconcerting that you're clinging to "math" here.
Either Sapience was telling the truth or he wasn't. That you claim to have used "math" to demonstrate that he wasn't telling the truth is downright. . . odd. But in a delightfully entertaining way.
--H
P.S. If you're going to keep arguing that you aren't accusing Sapience of lying, you might want to stop simultaneously arguing that you have mathematically proven that he was lying.
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Re: Efforts towards fixing the lag
Just a few points I thought I'd throw out there:
1. It's going to be fixed and they found the problem.
2. Hurin, you're just wrong here. Turbine deserved everything they got from this post. They handled the whole thing very poorly.
3. Nearly everyone that complained all stated that it had to do with something that happened post U6. Logic dictates its not a 'server' issue, rather a coding issue. Many folks said just that.
4. Sapience, et al, said our servers are fine. Its client side. End of story. To nearly everyone here "client side" means US. Also, he suggested it was something to do with our ISPs. The whole communication initially was slanted to, 'it's the player's issues". And even if that wasn't what was intended, THAT'S what almost everyone took it to mean.
5. Who the heck knows there's even a tech bug report thingy anywhere before this thread? I'm sure some people did, but most, including myself, didn't have a clue. And for Turbine Support to simply close tickets as unresolved because its in the wrong department is horriffic customer service.
6. And speaking of customer service. I work in a service industry (casino resort in nevada) and what we got from Turbine was horrible customer service. Its a terrible way to treat your guests by saying, sorry that some of you are affected by X, but really, its all your fault. Just because a snow storm closes down the local airport here and the guests can't get to the resort for extra hours, we don't tell the guests, 'sux to be u". We comp them dinner and an extra night if they want it, etc giving them something for their troubles even though we had nothing to do with the problem. Turbine should have taken responsibility for what was going on from the start. They should have NEVER intimated the problem might be with players ISPs.
They should simply have said:
"we're sorry for the issue and inconvenience we're working on it. Right now, we see it isn't a server issue, but since everyone is reporting a post U6 problem, we're currently looking at the coding to see if it isn't something in the client (game files). We're not sure exactly where the problem lies but, obviuously, its affecting many of you. Rest assured we are working hard on this problem and as soon as we more information, we'll let you know"
A post like that would have gone MILES to allay peoples frustations. However they were purposefully vague and deflecting of possible blame. A company looks so much better if they just admit they have an issue, let their customers know they know and move to fix it, keeping the customers in the loop. The way Turbine handled this was laughable.
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Re: Efforts towards fixing the lag
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bastiat1
I stated that his assertion lacked all credibility and I've proved that mathematically.
With a sample size of 20 out of a total population of maybe 200K? At least some of whom are playing together regularly, and therefore aren't even remotely like a random sampling? Um... no. But nice try.
Some people are clearly having problems, and others aren't. Those who play in groups seem to be reporting more problems, and it's no great surprise that people in those groups would experience similar things -- even if it has nothing whatever to do with the servers. Each client for a group will be getting similar stimulus, with similar timing. If the clients are seeing a data-driven problem (packet handling, asset loading/caching, rendering, etc)... it may take awhile to sort out just what is going on.
Usually, the first step to solving a problem like that is to figure out how to reproduce it reliably in a debug environment. Unfortunately, sometimes the debugging/logging can shift the problem, or cause it to actually disappear (making it just hellacious to figure out what's wrong).
Khafar
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Re: Efforts towards fixing the lag
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Originally Posted by
knowfere
That's just it! The lag was never "fixed". Even tho they tried to play it off like it was.
This is a misreading of what was said. They did not pretend anything was fixed. They claimed the problem was not on their servers. Then players started misunderstanding this to mean it did not exist or was fault of players. They never said they were closing the bug down as resolved, they never blamed problems on players. People also misunderstand comments that there were not many players with the bugs as somehow meaning it was not important; but what it means is that when few customers have problems or the problems are intermittent and not readily reproducible then it becomes harder to solve the problem.
Ultimately what occurred is that we have far too many players ready to hop on the "we hate Turbine" band wagon, even when Turbine is communicating to players and trying to fix things. Everything Turbine said was misinterpreted through the lens of distrust. I seriously believe that after this patch is out and things appear fixed that some players will continue to say "they could have fixed it sooner" or "turbine never listens to players".
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Re: Efforts towards fixing the lag
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Originally Posted by
Lohi
Everything Turbine said was misinterpreted through the lens of distrust.
That's not strictly true. A lot of what Turbine said was misinterpreted because they worded it very poorly ( it was accurate, but they were totally oblivious to the fact that many customers would misconstrue it ), leading people to the wrong conclusion. If they had been specific, in language that made sense to everyone as lestat showed, it would have eliminated 90% of this trouble. I'm not saying Turbine deliberately mislead people, but even when they try, they just can't seem to get it right.
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Re: Efforts towards fixing the lag
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Originally Posted by
lestat86
3. Nearly everyone that complained all stated that it had to do with something that happened post U6.
And correlation is not necessarily causation. It turned out to be the case here. But there for a few days it was reasonable to think that perhaps Turbine had fixed the lag as they thought they had and that perhaps there were other things beyond their control in the case of those still suffering. But as others have said, they never once said: "Go away. It's not us." as many here seem to want to pretend Turbine did.
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Logic dictates its not a 'server' issue, rather a coding issue. Many folks said just that.
You have to speak/write more precisely if you're not going to just muddy the water further. Servers run "code" as well. So it says nothing to say it's not a "server issue" it's a "code" issue. When most people refer to a "server issue" they're generally referring to the code running on the server. Or the server hardware itself. But above you're not making the distinction you think you're making.
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4. Sapience, et al, said our servers are fine. Its client side. End of story.
No. That is not what they said. No matter how many times people want to assert that this is what they said, they quite simply did not.
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Also, he suggested it was something to do with our ISPs.
No. AGAIN, they mused aloud that it COULD be something to do with the ISPs. Speaking generally about what is often the cause of perceived lag and allowing for it to be a possibility is NOT the same as saying that it's your ISP.
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The whole communication initially was slanted to, 'it's the player's issues". And even if that wasn't what was intended, THAT'S what almost everyone took it to mean.
That's because internet forums are filled with people who take a bizarrely adversarial stance towards the companies that provide them entertainment. Just because those people are prone to misinterpreting/misreading things and parsing everything a company says as uncharitably as possible does not make it the company's fault when people do so.
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Its a terrible way to treat your guests by saying, sorry that some of you are affected by X, but really, its all your fault.
They never said that. You're all just pretending they did. Because people like to be angry on the internet.
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Turbine should have taken responsibility for what was going on from the start. They should have NEVER intimated the problem might be with players ISPs.
So, what you're saying is that when troubleshooting a problem, we really shouldn't consider all the possibilities. Because people on the internet will fixate on one possibility we mention in passing as a generic cause of generic lag in computer games since time immemorial and then get butt-hurt?
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They should simply have said:
"we're sorry for the issue and inconvenience we're working on it. Right now, we see it isn't a server issue, but since everyone is reporting a post U6 problem, we're currently looking at the coding to see if it isn't something in the client (game files). We're not sure exactly where the problem lies but, obviuously, its affecting many of you. Rest assured we are working hard on this problem and as soon as we more information, we'll let you know"
That's very similar to what Sapience posted first in this thread. Once it became apparent that there was a separate issue still present after the "server fix" on the 21st, he popped in to say essentially that.
Seven days after the server patch, more than two weeks ago, a day after this thread was created, Sapience stated unequivocally that they were not saying that it was definitely on the players' end or their responsibility. And he explicitly stated that they were investigating all possibilities because there was clearly an issue somewhere that needed addressed.
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A post like that would have gone MILES to allay peoples frustations.
It didn't. By then, people had their pitchforks already in hand and nothing is quite so pointless as trying to divest nerds on the internet of their rage.
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However they were purposefully vague and deflecting of possible blame. A company looks so much better if they just admit they have an issue, let their customers know they know and move to fix it, keeping the customers in the loop. The way Turbine handled this was laughable.
They accepted blame as soon as they figured out that they were deserving of the blame. Some aren't happy about that. Apparently, they want Turbine to accept blame even when they have no idea what's causing the problem or whether it's even something they can do anything about. Accepting blame for something you can't fix because it's outside of your control may work in the recreation/resort industry. It doesn't tend to work when you are actually responsible for identifying and fixing technical issues.
Seriously, people need to drop their preconceived notions and go back and re-read Sapience's posts in this thread with their critical thinking caps firmly on their heads instead of their pitchforks in their hands. I have done so, and I am struck by how what was actually said by Turbine bears almost no resemblance to the words being routinely attributed to them. It's downright crazy and disheartening to see the bizarre conclusions people have lept to even in the face of being repeatedly told by Turbine and fellow players all along that they're clearly misreading/misinterpreting what was said.
--H
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Re: Efforts towards fixing the lag
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Originally Posted by
Hurin
But there for a few days it was reasonable to think that perhaps Turbine had fixed the lag as they thought they had--H
Isn't that exactly the same situation as now?
Sapience - "With all that said, we do believe we've found the issue behind both the Horse travel route problems and the hitching/stuttering on the client."
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Re: Efforts towards fixing the lag
Quote:
Originally Posted by
monteeburns
Isn't that exactly the same situation as now?
Sapience - "With all that said, we do believe we've found the issue behind both the Horse travel route problems and the hitching/stuttering on the client."
Yes. What's your point?
They aren't omnipotent. They have identified a problem. They are now fixing it. If reports of "lag" (often a misused term) persist after this fix, it will likewise be reasonable to wonder how widespread the problem remains and/or if those still experiencing "lag" might be suffering from "traditional lag" outside of Turbine's control. Just as they did after they fixed a known/documented problem on the 21st that they thought would fix reports of "lag."
So we'll be right back at square one. And it will either be fixed for the vast majority of folks currently suffering or it won't. And if it isn't fixed, we'll go back into "discovery" phase and you guys can all continue willfully twisting and misreading everything Turbine says and accuse them of all the same malfeasance you chose to see in this case. Whereas, in reality, they're merely asking questions, suggesting possibilities, and disabusing technically less savvy forum posters of erroneous notions.
--H
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Re: Efforts towards fixing the lag
I dunno. They base their problem severity level on the number of people that respond to a thread? They do realise that the vast majority of people never use the forums. Also that most people won't bother replying if they see that their issue has already been flagged, I know I didn't and neither did anyone in any of our raids which always experience these lag spikes.
As to using the "tech report" form :confused: Just try to find it. Then try to use it. It's awful. Then if you finally get it filed you get a nonsense response telling you that you've done it all wrong. Nothing ever seems to come from either bug or tech reports, the vast majority of the EU playerbase still can't use MyLotro ffs :mad: and this very website is so bugged it's a joke (I did file a report, guess what response I got :rolleyes:).
So crawl back under your comfort blanket of only 30 people reporting the issue, after you repeatedly told people it was their own fault, it's not us, our servers are fine, etc... Then admit it's actually a coding problem, so you know more than 30 people must be experiencing it, and in the same post still claim that it's only a tiny proportion of players effected. THAT BAFFLES ME!
