Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Dol Amroth, especially, due to some of these wings, and maybe ease out a bit in a few spots in some of these others too. But generally, no, I would disagree about the rest

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I think we are in agreement mostly, except maybe the way the mountains extend too far south, but I can live with that even if they finally clean up Dol Amroth.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

- I dislike that word now, I think :P

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What, compression?

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Bring to caliber of the rest of the word or bring up to modern standards, as people tend to say. Even if not intended, the result implied or de facto what comes out of this screams "make everything the same" to me. If there is anything I would change about Gondor in this regard, would be to have some cities that aren't necessarily just white stone - so something between the first one that we ever see (but that was more of a village treatment) and these others of stone. A mashup treatment. But that's not that important and they're not going to change it now, and overall, these smaller stone cities are actually pretty nice, so like Linhir, Calembel, Arnach etc. Not everything needs to be a walled-in, perfect fortress, huge NO to this. Gondor is not even anywhere near at war in these areas for a chunk of its recent history, why would anything in there be somewhat super fortified or enormous in size. Uniformity or big big size for everything aren't helping, it's just cheapening the world. I like how some of these small-medium sized Gondorian settlement felt, all somehow different, not just same pattern.

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I'm literally arguing against uniformity here which Gondor suffers from far too much. We need more character, I'm not saying to change the designs of Linhir, Calembel & Arnach (as if they'd do that anyway). I'm saying the winged tower saturation should be cleaned up here. The ones I mentioned that I really liked are extremely varied & beautiful.

And yes I loved Morlad, it's so well done. The villages are superb, it's the cities & fortresses that need tweaking. Even Dol Amroth has lovely parts to it after all.

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Originally Posted by k40rne

They gave a vague statement about an altternate non dawnless Gondor and mentioned the expansion would include an Umbar region, for you to assume that doesn't incorporate any of the areas we previously discussed is a bit silly.

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Uhh what? I've point blank said several times that the new Gondor zone will likely incorporate parts of places like Southgaurd. Where do you get this stuff from? Its every single post too, just stuff out of nowhere. Is it that hard to reply to what I actually said that you have to resort to these sorts of measures?

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Black: Closed border

Violet: Closed for now, until there is Anfalas

Orange: Long teleportation borders on waters

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As I recall from previous posts on this thread the Gondor territory map doesn't go out all the way enough to cover the entirety of Anfalas. IIRC it only fits the like eastern half of Anfalas, which also has the rough cost built(as seen on the LOTRO google map). The western half, Andrast, and the Druwaith Iaur, aren't actually present on either the Gondor map, or the Eriador map. They exist outside everything.

If they ever did a Bay of Belfalas zone it would likely only cover the eastern half of Anfalas.

I meant modern standard or caliber, though now I see you probably didn't use them in that context anyway.

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Originally Posted by k40rne

Linhir, Calembel & Arnach (as if they'd do that anyway). I'm saying the winged tower saturation should be cleaned up here. The ones I mentioned that I really liked are extremely varied & beautiful.

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Well, yeah, if you meant like only the wings, then sure. They should just loose the wings. Not sure if they can replace with something else, and in any case, I guess they can keep *some* of the wings (they look nice from distance) but maybe downscale them a little, so it's not as jarring and almost unnatural looking (but not on too many towers, just 1 or 2 would be enough). Dol Amroth might have some more wings, if it feels good in practice when a worldbuilder sees this, but also downscaled in that case. When these are so giant and all over the place it looks a bit weird. I would also get rid of some of these copy-paste giant faces used in Dol Amroth and replace maybe with some statues or different reliefs, so there is more variety. Or have the faces specifically looking into the sea, placed somehow esthetically rather than chaotic - which might be a nice effect when you approach it on a boat - but for inland view have something else, like statues.

But really, makes me wonder. If the wings were as small as these spikes on Arnorian towers - perhaps it would even look good and believable? Depends on how the models look on the tower when they're scaled down, I have no idea, but maybe it's easier to try this first

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

Uhh what? I've point blank said several times that the new Gondor zone will likely incorporate parts of places like Southgaurd. Where do you get this stuff from? Its every single post too, just stuff out of nowhere. Is it that hard to reply to what I actually said that you have to resort to these sorts of measures?

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The implication wasn't Southguard. It was Harondor & Near Harad, you know, the ones we've been discussing predominantly.& you've been disagreeing with me about on this thread.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

I meant modern standard or caliber, though now I see you probably didn't use them in that context anyway.



Well, yeah, if you meant like only the wings, then sure. They should just loose the wings. Not sure if they can replace with something else, and in any case, I guess they can keep *some* of the wings (they look nice from distance) but maybe downscale them a little, so it's not as jarring and almost unnatural looking (but not on too many towers, just 1 or 2 would be enough). Dol Amroth might have some more wings, if it feels good in practice when a worldbuilder sees this, but also downscaled in that case. When these are so giant and all over the place it looks a bit weird. I would also get rid of some of these copy-paste giant faces used in Dol Amroth and replace maybe with some statues or different reliefs, so there is more variety. Or have the faces specifically looking into the sea, placed somehow esthetically rather than chaotic - which might be a nice effect when you approach it on a boat - but for inland view have something else, like statues.

But really, makes me wonder. If the wings were as small as these spikes on Arnorian towers - perhaps it would even look good and believable? Depends on how the models look on the tower when they're scaled down, I have no idea, but maybe it's easier to try this first

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Yes, less can be more. So less open winged towers in all of West/Central/Eastern Gondor, retexture & update/fix those reliefs & it will look much better.

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Originally Posted by k40rne

The implication wasn't Southguard. It was Harondor & Near Harad, you know, the ones we've been discussing predominantly.& you've been disagreeing with me about on this thread.

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We've been discussing all those regions predominately.

But talking specifically about this goalpost move... looking at non expansion, or mini-expansion, sized landscape additions the suggestion it will cover Harondor and Near Harad is pretty baseless. If we presume its going to startoff around Minas Tirith, the typical non expansion sized landmass addition would allow it to cover the Pelennor Fields, South Ithilien, and maybe parts of Southguard.

Even if they do a release the size of the Dwarf Holds, which included the Iron Hills and Grey Mountains, thats really only enough for Minas Tirith, Pelennor, South Ithilien, and Southguard... and even adding in southguard would make it bigger than that. To noy only do that, but also redo the rest of Eastern Gondor, and Central Gondor, as dawnless versions would be a level of new terrain that eclipses full expansions like Gorgoroth. And then to fill those areas with quests so it isn't just 80% empty is a task far beyond even what they've shown recently.

Ditto with Umbar, even if you slap a Gorgothoth sized map around Umbar(with the Mount Doom void taking the place of Umbar Bay) that still leaves such a massive space they would need something larger than Cardo/Swan to fill Harondor, and another map(Near Harad) between them to connect Harondor to Umbar. Unless they massively shrink Harondor.

This would fit with what we saw for the Black Book and Gundabad storylines. 4-5 new map releases for both.
https://i.imgur.com/EbQvBXL.png

I have no idea what it's gonna be but... why would we even need a new version of Minas Tirith or Pelennor though? Plus North Ithilien and Osgiliath, they all already exist in the "After" map. They only have to expand from there. Plus, if they really want to have Dawnless Day entirely gone and that's what they meant - that's 5 copy-paste regions (with Ringlo Vale and South Ithilien) but if they don't want to have 50+ quests in there then perhaps remove NPCs, Corsair/Haradrim ships or camps and show some rebuilding effort in these coastal settlements, and would be enough. (And frankly, I really don't see anything fun about going back to each of these cities and being used for their rebuilding chores. Show up as Aragorn's envoy maybe to assess situation, investigate or talk with relevant NPCs, see how are things after war but not as babysitter)

As for MT, I guess they're just going to use the After battle under repairs version. That was always the main place to go for main story, for Aragorn or Ayorzen interactions. Midsummer is amazing, but it's neither here nor there, and frankly, a forever lasting festival party connected to open world wouldn't be any less jarring than just using the regular After version. Frankly, it's also pretty realistic that with all that's happening, they didn't really finish all these repairs yet, though ideally it would look a bit tidier but still unfinished, so something between After and Midsummer, but it is what it is. After version will do. And the zones were always chronologically misaligned anyway so that's not a problem, I guess the main issue here is many players would love to see this clear skied Gondor + if they're telling some current story there near coast/Anduin they might actually need that to feel less jarring rather than... covered with black skies and burning landscape. Rohan may be in the same boat someday but even then I guess they wouldn't do something like that - no skies to correct, and if they do instanced "March to Edoras" with the king's body, and then have you teleported straight into Edoras = no immersion problem at all, no landscape mobs are getting in the way and most Rohan spaces weren't outright assailed right behind walls

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

I have no idea what it's gonna be but... why would we even need a new version of Minas Tirith or Pelennor though? Plus North Ithilien and Osgiliath, they all already exist in the "After" map. They only have to expand from there. Plus, if they really want to have Dawnless Day entirely gone and that's what they meant - that's 5 copy-paste regions (with Ringlo Vale and South Ithilien) but if they don't want to have 50+ quests in there then perhaps remove NPCs, Corsair/Haradrim ships or camps and show some rebuilding effort in these coastal settlements, and would be enough. (And frankly, I really don't see anything fun about going back to each of these cities and being used for their rebuilding chores. Show up as Aragorn's envoy maybe to assess situation, investigate or talk with relevant NPCs, see how are things after war but not as babysitter)

As for MT, I guess they're just going to use the After battle under repairs version. That was always the main place to go for main story, for Aragorn or Ayorzen interactions. Midsummer is amazing, but it's neither here nor there, and frankly, a forever lasting festival party connected to open world wouldn't be any less jarring than just using the regular After version. Frankly, it's also pretty realistic that with all that's happening, they didn't really finish all these repairs yet, though ideally it would look a bit tidier but still unfinished, so something between After and Midsummer, but it is what it is. After version will do. And the zones were always chronologically misaligned anyway so that's not a problem, I guess the main issue here is many players would love to see this clear skied Gondor + if they're telling some current story there near coast/Anduin they might actually need that to feel less jarring rather than... covered with black skies and burning landscape. Rohan may be in the same boat someday but even then I guess they wouldn't do something like that - no skies to correct, and if they do instanced "March to Edoras" with the king's body, and then have you teleported straight into Edoras = no immersion problem at all, no landscape mobs are getting in the way and most Rohan spaces weren't outright assailed right behind walls

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I think we get a new MT in a new territory called Umbar or something. They can also use Midsummer, but that doesn't align in the timeline as far as I know and since Midsummer matters in regard to time it does not seem likely.

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Originally Posted by Hierona

I think we get a new MT in a new territory called Umbar or something. They can also use Midsummer, but that doesn't align in the timeline as far as I know and since Midsummer matters in regard to time it does not seem likely.

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Let's just assume this is correct, which I highly doubt. That would mean that we also need new version of Osgiliath and Ithilien (again!) - so there is already an element of insanity into that, I want continuous, expanding open-world, not exactly a world of Many Alternatively Looking / Differently Timed same places in their own bubbles. I mean, as long as an alternate version really services the story then sure, or when you do a tale of the past region, but otherwise no need to make it a norm. (Oh, and they've already neglected their After map as it is, by not introducing all the portal connections between Before/After that it needs to make the journey continuous on all fronts - by the way, Scenario, if you're working with Gondor stuff, maybe you could include some of those and fix the terrible North/South Ithilien portals? Though some of these borders will surely change and move now, if you're actually expanding land in the After landscape).



But, if there is actually a new MT, because they feel like they really need one that's completely rebuilt for some reason, then I want it to be a COMPLETE one. I get it, I know why there are sections that are cut off in After and Midsummer. Was laggy and all that. But if they're actually redoing MT again, under normal circumstances, not under repairs, not during festival, then I see no reason to cut corners because there no longer be any viable justifications to restrict access to spaces. I want to see Before Battle version, wholly explorable on all levels :D (...and throw in the public space of tombs of kings from the Gloom of Nurn instance as extra) But yeah, they're not going to do this, so really there is no point to a new MT version anyway if they already have After Battle version with restricted access

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Plus North Ithilien and Osgiliath, they all already exist in the "After" map

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I don't think North Ithilien would be on the new map myself. No real need for it in this storyline with Umbar.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

I have no idea what it's gonna be but... why would we even need a new version of Minas Tirith or Pelennor though?

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Well the Minas Tirith, and Pelennor, from March of the King is immediate post battle and is still scarred, and full of wreckage, from the orc war machine wreckage. Its been awhile since then, and they could show it repaired/cleaned up.

Besides that though.... where else would it be? Like,

• It doesn't really make sense to connect it to the Gondor region since, well, Gondor already exists there, and needs to be there for the level 100 leveling experience. You can't just "un-dawn" the Gondor territory maps that are already there.
• From what MiniExpBounder has said, the Mordor map is positioned in the south east corner of its territory map, and doesn't even have enough room for all of Nurn, let alone getting down to Umbar, unless they move all of the landscape thats already built.
• Also, North Ithilien on Mordor already connects to the pre-Battle of the Pelennor South Ithilien. So it would be kinda odd trying to keep that connection, but also build south into a post-war South Ithilien, and then into Harondor, Near Harad, and Umbar, even if they moved the map north.
• Even if they did like.... a new Gondor map with Pelargir in the center, that still leaves a rather significant amount of space where they would have to build toward, and eventually include, South Ithilien anyways to get back to the land connection to Harad/Umbar

Just making Minas Tirith 3: The final Tirith map makes the most sense from a design perspective since it, connected to South Ithilien, provide the most direct route to connect Umbar back to Gondor at some point.

Really there isn't a good answer here due to the way the Gondor and Mordor territories were built, but this just seems like the most logical to me.

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

Well the Minas Tirith, and Pelennor, from March of the King is immediate post battle still scarred, and full of wreckage from the orc war machine wreckage. Its been awhile since then, and they could show it repaired.

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I mean, and they could also show Rohan repaired, or have a version of Eriador without orcs and half orcs in it, or Wastes that aren't under invasion and North Ithilien without Camp of the Host. Also, you can outright walk into Minas Morgul and see it under siege (I'm still not sure whether there is some phasing involved or not? At least I don't think it is from the direction of Ithilien but there surely gotta be for that backyard gate from Lhingris because the Mordor storyline said that it was shut tight at the time). Anyway, the point being, it's never going to be perfect in that regard nor it needs to be.

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

Just making Minas Tirith 3: The final Tirith, map makes the most sense from a design perspective since it, connected to South Ithilien, provide the most direct route to connect Umbar back to Gondor at some point.

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So creating yet another narrow corridor, leading to Umbar, on another map, third version of the map (but two versions seem already confusing and not ideally connected), seems like a great design choice? I'm not sure.

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

• From what MiniExpBounder has said, the Mordor map is positioned in the south east corner of its territory map, and doesn't even have enough room for all of Nurn, let alone getting down to Umbar, unless they move all of the landscape thats already built.

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I think they meant no space for Umbar most likely. Nurn space clearly gotta be there, since when they came up with this map choice, they were clearly knowing that they're approaching/going to Mordor - and we already saw a rough terrain sketch of entire Nurn on the old Mordor map from beta. Thuringwath itself is pushed very far South and you also have all these mountains on the horizon that you see from Lhingris. I think they've planned enough space to cover Mordor, up to its Southern borders. Might not be enough for entire Harondor though. I'm not exactly sure how the edge of the map looks like, but worst case scenario it's just beyond what would be Southern mountains of Mordor (since these mountains would effectively cover it up).

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

• Also, North Ithilien on Mordor already connects to the pre-Battle of the Pelennor South Ithilien. So it would be kinda odd trying to keep that connection, but also build south

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Yeah the two terrible connection points in the entire game, that I hope they'll fix. But how is that problematic? It's just a small teleport point with coordinates in and out, can be removed. Like in my suggestion for Scenario, they can keep the South-to-North (Before-to-After) teleport, then put a "Are you lost?" horse NPC right there where you're teleported into on the North (After) map, to be able to immediately return to where you discovered that portal on the South (Before) map - very good quality of life improvement, and good design, taking newbies into account... Then just remove a confusing teleport to South Ithilien that's in the South of North Ithilien and expand the landmass South, including the After version of South Ithilien. Since that would make it a continuous landmass then no need for additional teleports back to Before on that front.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Like in my suggestion for Scenario, they can keep the South-to-North (Before-to-After) teleport, then put a "Are you lost?" horse NPC right there where you're teleported into on the North (After) map, to be able to immediately return to where you discovered that portal on the South (Before) map - very good quality of life improvement, and good design, taking newbies into account... Then just remove a confusing teleport to South Ithilien that's in the South of North Ithilien and expand the landmass South, including the After version of South Ithilien. Since that would make it a continuous landmass then no need for additional teleports back to Before on that front.

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I have long wanted a feature I've called the "waypoint destination array" that would pop up a menu with a list of teleport destinations - sort of like how neighborhood entrances work, but just for teleports, so that at certain locations, you can more cleanly find and pick the version of a region you want to go to. Its in the queue but no ETA on it.

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Originally Posted by Scenario

I have long wanted a feature I've called the "waypoint destination array" that would pop up a menu with a list of teleport destinations - sort of like how neighborhood entrances work, but just for teleports, so that at certain locations, you can more cleanly find and pick the version of a region you want to go to. Its in the queue but no ETA on it.

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That would be pretty cool and useful feature in certain situations, yeah :D

Like able to pick your version of MT one wants to enter, perhaps. (But how to make it work without sacrificing the open world space though, hmm? - Since the two main MTs we have are seamless parts of their own amazing open world maps)

Anyway, most of these "crossing over from Region A to region B" points that we have currently in the game (or could have) aren't really "double version" situations, no? And that's the ones I was talking about. So when you reach the border of continuous open-world in Gondor Region and cross over to After Battle Ithilien in Mordor region by getting teleported to the right geographical point - there is only one way to go, no choices to offer here. So it probably wouldn't be useful there, unless I misunderstood the feature. What's missing there is a suitable way to immediately go back, at this specific spot, rather than be forced to ride all the way South to that bridge connection point. Some players who crossed over might have done it by accident, not yet in later stages of the story, so really could use a quick horse to go back, in case they wish to do so immediately and without confusion of having to ride through a different version of a map - but that's also a one way route, no other choices here. There are two versions of Isengard but not even there it makes sense, I guess? There is a single open-world pathway between Flooded Isengard and Rohan, on one map. What's missing would be a connection point in old Isengard that allows to teleport to Rohan pathway, with a quick horse with a way back attached near the exit coordinates on Rohan pathway (Rhovanion map). Or quick horse to another quick horse ... because I'm not sure now, can a teleport portal lead to a chosen coordinates on another map that doesn't have a corresponding portal back? Or it always gotta be a back-and-forth portal that leads both ways and exists on both sides? (as this visible glow thingy)

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

I mean, and they could also show Rohan repaired, or have a version of Eriador without orcs and half orcs in it, or Wastes that aren't under invasion and North Ithilien without Camp of the Host. Also, you can outright walk into Minas Morgul and see it under siege (I'm still not sure whether there is some phasing involved or not? At least I don't think it is from the direction of Ithilien but there surely gotta be for that backyard gate from Lhingris because the Mordor storyline said that it was shut tight at the time). Anyway, the point being, it's never going to be perfect in that regard nor it needs to be.

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Sure they could, but that doesn't directly involve the current story. If they felt they needed to go back to parts of Rohan and Eriador, and have them repaired/without orcs, or the Wastes/North Ithilien without the Camp, they would do so.

As for Minas Morgul, if you mean the one you can see from North Ithilien remember the March of the King areas, the post battle Minas Tirith, Pelennor, and North Ithilien, are all part of the Mordor territory, not the Gondor territory. Also, when I played the Gorgoroth stuff the gate was already open for me, even when I was doing the quests saying it was closed. Pretty sure its just open all the time since they added Minas Morgul.

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So creating yet another narrow corridor, leading to Umbar, on another map, third version of the map (but two versions seem already confusing and not ideally connected), seems like a great design choice? I'm not sure.

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Great design choice? Na, its pretty awful. But neither the Gondor nor Mordor territories go down far enough to reach Umbar so....

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I think they meant no space for Umbar most likely. Nurn space clearly gotta be there, since when they came up with this map choice, they were clearly knowing that they're approaching/going to Mordor - and we already saw a rough terrain sketch of entire Nurn on the old Mordor map from beta. Thuringwath itself is pushed very far South and you also have all these mountains on the horizon that you see from Lhingris. I think they've planned enough space to cover Mordor, up to its Southern borders. Might not be enough for entire Harondor though. I'm not exactly sure how the edge of the map looks like, but worst case scenario it's just beyond what would be Southern mountains of Mordor (since these mountains would effectively cover it up).

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Actually, now that I got a good look at the Mordor height map Mini posted on Reddit I think he meant there isn't enough space for Lithlad, not Nurn. The heightmap does appear to have space for Nurn.... unless I'm just reading it wrong

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Yeah the two terrible connection points in the entire game, that I hope they'll fix. But how is that problematic? It's just a small teleport point with coordinates in and out, can be removed. Like in my suggestion for Scenario, they can keep the South-to-North (Before-to-After) teleport, then put a "Are you lost?" horse NPC right there where you're teleported into on the North (After) map, to be able to immediately return to where you discovered that portal on the South (Before) map - very good quality of life improvement, and good design, taking newbies into account... Then just remove a confusing teleport to South Ithilien that's in the South of North Ithilien and expand the landmass South, including the After version of South Ithilien. Since that would make it a continuous landmass then no need for additional teleports back to Before on that front.

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I suppose they could do that, but that still doesn't really solve the problem of the Mordor territory not going down far enough to cover Umbar. They also probably wouldn't want to mix level 100 zones nears level 150+ zones.

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

Also, when I played the Gorgoroth stuff the gate was already open for me, even when I was doing the quests saying it was closed. Pretty sure its just open all the time since they added Minas Morgul.

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Well, that's pretty awful, should be somewhere in their bug queue then... if anyone reported yet :D Since I would expect them to use phasing for at least that gate. I can get behind that ranger camp near Ithilien, because the bridge is technically destroyed, so let's just pretend they're a watch camp for now, left behind to watch the back of the Host and isn't as jarring. But the quest saying the gate is shut and gate being open isn't really convincing and I don't remember other examples of things like that in the game

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

But neither the Gondor nor Mordor territories go down far enough to reach Umbar so....

I suppose they could do that, but that still doesn't really solve the problem of the Mordor territory not going down far enough to cover Umbar. They also probably wouldn't want to mix level 100 zones nears level 150+ zones.

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They can just have Umbar/Harad on another map then. Or, maybe they just moved things and have space for it on Mordor map now. That's what Scenario was specifically referring to earlier in his stream "whether we need to move things" and was happy he had no part to play in solving this puzzle :P

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

We've been discussing all those regions predominately.

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The only disputed areas were Harondor & Near Harad.

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

But talking specifically about this goalpost move... looking at non expansion, or mini-expansion, sized landscape additions the suggestion it will cover Harondor and Near Harad is pretty baseless. If we presume its going to startoff around Minas Tirith, the typical non expansion sized landmass addition would allow it to cover the Pelennor Fields, South Ithilien, and maybe parts of Southguard.

Even if they do a release the size of the Dwarf Holds, which included the Iron Hills and Grey Mountains, thats really only enough for Minas Tirith, Pelennor, South Ithilien, and Southguard... and even adding in southguard would make it bigger than that. To noy only do that, but also redo the rest of Eastern Gondor, and Central Gondor, as dawnless versions would be a level of new terrain that eclipses full expansions like Gorgoroth. And then to fill those areas with quests so it isn't just 80% empty is a task far beyond even what they've shown recently.

Ditto with Umbar, even if you slap a Gorgothoth sized map around Umbar(with the Mount Doom void taking the place of Umbar Bay) that still leaves such a massive space they would need something larger than Cardo/Swan to fill Harondor, and another map(Near Harad) between them to connect Harondor to Umbar. Unless they massively shrink Harondor.

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You're the only one mentioning Minas Tirith here. I don't see where this comes from, but I guess we'll know by June.

I already said I didn't think it would be the full zones of Harondor & near Harad, it would likely be a Great River type partial sampling (just look how they handled the Brownlands specifically). I moved no goalpost, you just fail to listen or skip posts.

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

They can just have Umbar/Harad on another map then. Or, maybe they just moved things and have space for it on Mordor map now. That's what Scenario was specifically referring to earlier in his stream "whether we need to move things" and was happy he had no part to play in solving this puzzle :P

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Well, if they hypothetically don't have plans to go deeper into Harad then the area around Umbar, or even if they do, why separate Umbar/Hear Harad off in its own territory when they can instead make all the maps related to this story in their own region directly connected rather than have some of the maps be in one region, and some in another?

IMO it would be better to just make a new territory area thats much larger, and build on there, then try to move stuff around and keep trying to work around the incredibly gimped Mordor territory limitations. You can have
-The Gondor territory for Gondor leading up to the Battle of the Pelennor
-The Mordor territory for the post battle->post fall of Sauron stuff directly related to Mordor
-The new territory for all the stuff dealing with the south

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

why separate Umbar/Hear Harad off in its own territory when they can instead make all the maps related to this story in their own region directly connected rather than have some of the maps be in one region, and some in another?

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Because what they're creating is *also* an open world, currently one of the best out there.

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

You can have
-The Gondor territory for Gondor leading up to the Battle of the Pelennor
-The Mordor territory for the post battle->post fall of Sauron stuff directly related to Mordor
-The new territory for all the stuff dealing with the south

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This would fit something like Assassin's Creed Base Game, and then Assassin's Creed Big Addon 1 and Big Addon 2, where these are framed as new campaigns set at different times/distant areas and you just gotta enter separately from the menu or swift travel.

But in LOTRO, which is constantly expanding as this open-world (where differently timed zones next to each other were never a design problem to be begin with, so why should be now), your suggestion has this massive flow: Let's just assume they would create a corridor from MT on brand new map and maybe some of Eastern Gondor + South Ithilien. Then we would need portals to another maps on ALL SIDES: from third Pelennor to After Osgliliath, from Pelennor to Before Talath Anor (or After???), from new South Ithilien/Southgard to North Ithilien (perhaps in more spots, to accommodate for different travel routes so it's not as cheap), and then of course whatever connections would be needed to Western Gondor, and we can't forget bodies of waters now (so not just potential sea connections but on rivers too, in case where Anduin would be cut short or its shores being map borders). Really, 3 versions of same maps sounds like too much insanity + it's much much better to have a clear-cut from left to right Southern border with teleport entryways on it - if Harad and Umbar are supposed to be on a new map anyway - than this Frankenstein narrow spot stretching from North to South that should include many connections on all sides to effectively make it a part of the larger world. As I said, since the devs still haven't gotten around to including some of these teleport points and pathways that feel like really should be there in the current world to organically move between maps (not exclusively by swift travel), imagine what it would be like if they added another map bubble of its own in need of connections too. So I really hope that's not the case

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Because what they're creating is *also* an open world, currently one of the best out there.




This would fit something like Assassin's Creed Base Game, and then Assassin's Creed Big Addon 1 and Big Addon 2, where these are framed as new campaigns set at different times/distant areas and you just gotta enter separately from the menu or swift travel.

But in LOTRO, which is constantly expanding as this open-world (where differently timed zones next to each other were never a design problem to be begin with, so why should be now), your suggestion has this massive flow: Let's just assume they would create a corridor from MT on brand new map and maybe some of Eastern Gondor + South Ithilien. Then we would need portals to another maps on ALL SIDES: from third Pelennor to After Osgliliath, from Pelennor to Before Talath Anor (or After???), from new South Ithilien/Southgard to North Ithilien (perhaps in more spots, to accommodate for different travel routes so it's not as cheap), and then of course whatever connections would be needed to Western Gondor, and we can't forget bodies of waters now (so not just potential sea connections but on rivers too, in case where Anduin would be cut short or its shores being map borders). Really, 3 versions of same maps sounds like too much insanity + it's much much better to have a clear-cut from left to right Southern border with teleport entryways on it - if Harad and Umbar are supposed to be on a new map anyway - than this Frankenstein narrow spot stretching from North to South that should include many connections on all sides to effectively make it a part of the larger world. As I said, since the devs still haven't gotten around to including some of these teleport points and pathways that feel like really should be there in the current world to organically move between maps (not exclusively by swift travel), imagine what it would be like if they added another map bubble of its own in need of connections too. So I really hope that's not the case

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Well . . . I can see the problem with MT and Osgiliath.

There's something else to consider though. When you look north at Minas Tirith from After-Battle South Ithilien, what would you rather see? A war-blasted Pelennor and a ruined MT, still reeling from the Battle of the Pelennor? Or a newly planted, green-field, reclaimed Pelennor with MT Midsummer and Gondor flourishing again under Elessar's reign - perhaps with those mithril gates from the Dwarves finally arriving?

It's a much more challenging issue when you look at it that way. It's literally their - last - opportunity to give us the "blue skies view of MT" precisely as Tolkien described it when Gandalf and Pippin approached it, for the most part. The Midsummer version is confined just to its immediate surroundings. The immediate After-Battle version is all ruined and messed up.

So, I hear what you're saying there - I also LOVE landscape contiguity and an open world and so forth. But it would feel very off to have a "resettled, pleasant post-WotR Gondor" immediately adjacent to a "we're marching to the Black Gate, probably to the death" version of MT, and as it currently stands, we already have the South Ithilien landscape portal to pre-battle anyway.

But imagine a rebuilt MT, magnificent Pelennor beneath the sun, no ruins, no signs of war, all is well again . . . looking out at a restored Bar Hurin, ready for Faramir and Eowyn to settle there after Theoden's funeral (*though considering what went on in Imlad Morgul, the "pause button" just covers that anyway. I'm pretty sure King Theoden has an inviolate body - like a mythic, deceased King; it isn't decaying naturally. It's supernaturally preserved to be buried with dignity).

And an After-Battle Central Gondor, whether in the War version or not, shall indeed have the same issues whether on the Mordor map or on a "South map" too. It will rub up against the homesteads in the Cape of Belfalas and the Ringlo Vale pass regardless of which version it is.

I don't know, TesalionLortus. Normally I'd agree with you on something like this! But as you can see, it's harder to decide than it looks, at least for me. I recommend rereading the approach to MT in the ROTK book and thinking about it. It's tricky! Because as of right now, we can't "relive" Tolkien's description in-game. We can't. We can ride north into "After-Battle Talath Anor" to see some of it, but a lot of it is war-torn with dead Mumakil and broken siege towers and trenches and dirt mounds all around it. In pre-battle, obviously, it's Dawnless Day, most of the farms are scorched, the Enemy's encamped all around the fields in a ring, and so forth.

It's harder for me to dismiss the appeal of a "strong, post-Sauron, non-ruined Gondor" including MT and its immediate surrounds. And who knows? Maybe Aragorn would want to start rebuilding / resettling parts of Osgiliath, and we start seeing "Morlad-style" wooden buildings showing up with masons and etc.?

Whatever they do, it'll be interesting to see! I think I'm thinking this way also because of the "new" (relatively) character creation screen / background for Men characters. We actually can't go into a "pre-Dawnless-Day, no-battle" Pelennor to see that view as it currently stands. I guess a ton of it depends on how much work would be involved on the development side - how much of it would be "copy / paste" of assets vs. how much would need care and attention to it.

My thought would be to use the Midsummer version because, hey, yeah, there are total timeline differences and so on. But at least it would save them from having to make yet another MT; they'd already have the base terrain to work with if they took that approach, and they could just have that Pelennor flow south through Harlond and out to Lossarnach, etc. They could also barricade the Imlad Morgul for a different reason: that Minas Ithil couldn't, in the end, be saved, and Aragorn, lore-wise, had to scorch the place. Maybe you could ride up to its gates and just see it burning in the distance? We would be long enough after "The Reclamation of Minas Ithil" quests for that to happen, that is, unless I missed something, and if they covered that already (*I forgot to finish that rep). That premise could vector toward Faramir and the White Company in post-WoTR South Ithilien.

At the same time though, yeah, I totally get the cost there. It would mean we couldn't just ride straight through all of Ithilien from north to south. I get it. I guess . . . I have to ask myself: what do I value more? Tolkien's descriptions of MT before the Dawnless Day, or . . . riding through Ithilien? I'd love both if possible! But if I had to choose . . . that's a tough call for me!

Cheers! :D

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Because what they're creating is *also* an open world, currently one of the best out there.

This would fit something like Assassin's Creed Base Game, and then Assassin's Creed Big Addon 1 and Big Addon 2, where these are framed as new campaigns set at different times/distant areas and you just gotta enter separately from the menu or swift travel.

But in LOTRO, which is constantly expanding as this open-world (where differently timed zones next to each other were never a design problem to be begin with, so why should be now), your suggestion has this massive flow: Let's just assume they would create a corridor from MT on brand new map and maybe some of Eastern Gondor + South Ithilien. Then we would need portals to another maps on ALL SIDES: from third Pelennor to After Osgliliath, from Pelennor to Before Talath Anor (or After???), from new South Ithilien/Southgard to North Ithilien (perhaps in more spots, to accommodate for different travel routes so it's not as cheap), and then of course whatever connections would be needed to Western Gondor, and we can't forget bodies of waters now (so not just potential sea connections but on rivers too, in case where Anduin would be cut short or its shores being map borders). Really, 3 versions of same maps sounds like too much insanity + it's much much better to have a clear-cut from left to right Southern border with teleport entryways on it - if Harad and Umbar are supposed to be on a new map anyway - than this Frankenstein narrow spot stretching from North to South that should include many connections on all sides to effectively make it a part of the larger world. As I said, since the devs still haven't gotten around to including some of these teleport points and pathways that feel like really should be there in the current world to organically move between maps (not exclusively by swift travel), imagine what it would be like if they added another map bubble of its own in need of connections too. So I really hope that's not the case

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I mean, Eriador, Moria, Rhovanian, Gondor, and Mordor each being their own map disagrees with the open world concept. Rhun, Harad, Khand, and Forodwaith, would need their own separate maps also.

And you're over thinking it. The current three versions of Minas Tirith don't have a bunch of portals everywhere, you just transfer between them via the horse. Just add the new one to the same horse. Done. And why would we need connections to western Gondor? or even most of the Anduin?

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

I mean, Eriador, Moria, Rhovanian, Gondor, and Mordor each being their own map disagrees with the open world concept. Rhun, Harad, Khand, and Forodwaith, would need their own separate maps also.

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Disagree how? They're all open world maps, and the devs made sure there are natural transitions though these portals between them (even if we're still missing some crucial ones but I guess most of it is due to oversight or devs thinking maybe they'll actually expand their landmass a certain direction in the past but then they didn't, so a spot could really use a portal, in the end, like between East Wall and Dead Marches, and even if they have something like that on their "maybe we'll go there in 5 years?" board of ideas then I could still use that portal connection in the meantime for organic exploration).

I agree places like Rhun or Harad may end up in its own map spaces (or parts of them, who knows) but that's not due to intention, that's due to space constraints of map files

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Originally Posted by Arnand_the_Fox

And why would we need connections to western Gondor? or even most of the Anduin?

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Because I wanna travel the continuous Middle-earth (if not open on one landmass, then portals that can lead me to another map - organically - like the portal between Rauros/Far Anorien) and I'm sure many players would like that too. What is the best factor in this game if not the amazing Middle-earth and landmasses they're creating?:What's better? Having organic transitions where landmasses meet? Or *just* the lame *backtrack, take a swift horse from MT and only then get onto* a potential proposed "road to Umbar map" of Southgard and beyond, completely in its own separate bubble, as if it was no different than Tales of Yore stuff?

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Originally Posted by Phantion

When you look north at Minas Tirith from After-Battle South Ithilien, what would you rather see? A war-blasted Pelennor and a ruined MT, still reeling from the Battle of the Pelennor? Or a newly planted, green-field, reclaimed Pelennor with MT Midsummer and Gondor flourishing again under Elessar's reign - perhaps with those mithril gates from the Dwarves finally arriving?

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They can literally just make sure that draw distance on all these battlefield stuff isn't as large, especially when viewed from South Ithilien, to make the view seem acceptable (that some walls are still destroyed here or there, no issue, it's been just two months and A LOT was happening, including the entire gotta secure Mordor ordeal, MT is a massive city, rebuilding all of it including outer walls isn't a piece of cake) - and that Corsair fleet would still be parked at Harlond anyway. As for dwarves, if they want to tell stuff about it, could just have a phasing gate maybe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phantion

what do I value more? Tolkien's descriptions of MT before the Dawnless Day, or . . . riding through Ithilien? I'd love both if possible! But if I had to choose . . . that's a tough call for me!

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Well, if you take into account all of the above, then that choice is easy for me - and probably much easier for the devs than recreating the entire MT again with Pelennor and Osgiliath... = just have Gandalf/Pippin tell us about their journey to reach MT and give us that exact view you mentioned. (Just like they had Pristine Isengard view in a session play). But the after battle Pelennor, even after two months, isn't that view from the description and shouldn't exactly be all perfect so quickly, as if the battle never happened, and amazing as it is... as I said, not really keen on the idea of ever lasting wedding party being a part of it. LOL. (This would also kill some of the festival enjoyment if you're coerced into going there for regular use all year long)

Well, but IF they're doing a new MT and this "corridor" thing, I guess I can take it, as long as they give me all the portals that should be there and nothing feels annoyingly walled off (rather than wall off Morgul Vale or have it on fire, could just have a portal leading there - etc), including on the Anduin (I mean: boat travel! one just gotta be able to swim from Rauros falls to Cair Andros - with the possibility to disembark on either side, so either continue on the pre-battle map or get teleported into after map, and then all the way to the Mouth, even if with portals in-between, depending on which map you traverse and what they're doing with new Gondor right now)

How can all the culture of a human reach this stage of ugliness?

https://i.imgur.com/Ku8VFCH.jpg

New Carn Dum desing doesn't even make sence.

Carn Dum and Dol Guldur have an ugly child.

I mean how can Senario be OK with it? FOR real now...

"Lets use Modern Assets" from 2009 :P

I m so glad its an Instance out of the world space that can easily be avoided to the void for ever. I m gonna forget this space after finish the deeds once.

Btw we got some hints for Forodwaith.... ;P

Isn't the point of Carn Dum to be ugly to an extent and at least the Dol Guldur assets were retextured to fit in. The main improvement is the city design rather than the looks I think and half the people in the thread don't want new assets and the other do?
At the end of the day its more of an instance than a piece of landscape so you would rather they create new assets for Umbar or assets for the already existing Carn Dum?



Also new Gondor zone is going to be a part of the Mordor version of Gondor as you can see changes to the area on Bullroarer so probably not a new continent type map.

Based on this shot and the one we saw before, this looks like the reverse of OG Carn Dum that makes less sense to me.

OG
- Well-kept/well-refurnished keep, with matching asset pieces, with some towers built into or erected on the mountains
- Messy rebuilding effort of the rest of the city's crumbled ruins, nested into the mountain passes (iron scraps, ramparts and towers attached to said old pieces of walls, the bridge collapsed and put on additional support to stop from further collapse, overall a messy amateur work of Angmarim crazies being expanded bit by bit over the years and not at all well coordinated like in WK's prime)

Reimagined
- Well-kept, almost perfectly organized kickass city walls with outer walls, with massive stone towers in perfect condition, and a very powerful looking city of Carn Dum (in Third Age...)
- A mismatch keep that looks like at least 6 architects were in conflict with each other, with some additional iron ramparts being added on top, and yet... each massive tower erected on the ground, nothing built on elevation


I'm glad it was retextured at least, from the looks of it. Makes it far less jarring! Though these Dol Guldur towers really don't make sense to me, looks like part of something else. Maybe if I imagined they're what's left of Carn Dum of the past... and OG Carn Dum assets are brand new stuff built by present day Angmar... but that doesn't match the lore - because Car Bronach stuff disagrees and OG Carn Dum disagrees too, and wouldn't be believable anyway, that they would rebuild as much from scratch into something so powerful, that Angmar wasn't supposed to be that kind of power.. fancying a fortress equal to Dol Guldur or or Minas Morgul.. nope... ).

Anyway, yeah, really don't get this one choice of Scenario here, makes me wildly surprised in disbelief still :D If you look at Drearspire, it's actually just old Angmar assets yet utilized in new way and Drearspire even got these cool round spike rings around it that this reimagined keep of Carn Dum... doesn't have anywhere. But instead added Dol Guldur pieces -> recolor makes it better but shapes are still mega jarring to my eyes and there is a complete window style mismatch. I would just get rid of each Dol Guldur tower and replaced with one of the Angmarim towers (or nothing at all)

Is any action even happening in the outside of the keep? On its ramparts and these Dol Guldur towers? If not, given that some of the layout, placement of some of the towers and gate appear to reflect the OG ones... why change it at all and have Dol Guldur assets in it? Really feels like change for the sake of change. If I was Scenario, at least in this case, I would just keep everything as it was - maybe just add more distance between towers but keep OG proportions, so it's more spacey but exact same layout with exact same assets/towers, so same silhouette, and have more detail, with these additional bridges between towers visible, some cooler spike treatment on the main tower like in Carn Bronach etc. Reimagined feels like I am supposed to imagine a brigade of 10 large catapults standing on this massive Dol Guldur tower on the right maybe with some trolls... :P instead of single catapults/batiste that could have been positioned on each tower of OG keep and then some on its ramparts just fine. The OG keep was basically more like Seregost, let's say - it has balcony ramparts, not outright city tiers. Seeing that view but with more detail/more spacey could have been nice, actually



Oh...
You made me curious with Forodwaith. So did they spare some of these established characters, or most of them? In simple terms though.. would love to avoid some spoilers. Though I'm not sure if there is much and whether there is even a story treatment of any sort here, since it doesn't have any quests attached apparently ??

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Originally Posted by Skohgar

At the end of the day its more of an instance than a piece of landscape so you would rather they create new assets for Umbar or assets for the already existing Carn Dum?

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It didn't need new assets, just as Carn Bronach didnd't need them (not in the form of old Dol Guldur pieces anyway, which is just forcing a piece onto it that doesn't belong, from stonework to window treatment to overall style and shape)