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Making "examples" of people only works if the rest of the community can see the example being made, but due to privacy concerns, I don't know of a single MMO company that publicly divulges what discipline it exacts on offending players.Quote:
Originally Posted by orrie206
Thus, no "example" can be made, so there's nothing to make the rest fall in line.
Banning offenders won't help anyway. People who talk this way, do so for the attention. If you keep arguing with them, they will keep going. If you ban them, they will come back and do it all over again. If you feed the troll, they will keep coming back for more.
Just ignore them or shut off the channel, they will eventually realize they are fools, and will get bored and leave.
I have not found that to be the case (the realization that they are the fool almost never occurs). There needs to be a better solution than just let them act badly until they tire of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glavian
Im not going to touch the other issues mentioned in regards to the general state of chat and game community.
However, regarding children playing... make rules. Lots of them. Set up boundaries. The game is beautiful and a lot of fun for them, if you control it.
"GAMEPLAY MAY CHANGE DURING ONLINE PLAY." But we can control the experience for our kids.
A conversation with my 11 year old neice:
"Can I try the game out?"
step 1) Call her Dad and ask.
step 2) Ok heres the rules:
-I will turn off chat channels of my choosing. /glff /advice /regional /trade /ooc
-You may only play when I or your parents are playing.
-You will only group with me or your parents, or people we choose to invite(trusted friends/kinmates/others who have shown themselves to be acceptable to our standards.)
etc etc
Make it absolutely clear that there is no bending of these rules, or playing privileges are lost. (and DONT give them the account password)
This realization of middle earth is beautiful, and can be neat for kids I think;
but stay on top of it, wayyy on top of it. Its your right, and your responsibility.
Remember this is the :eek:internet:eek:, all kinds of dangerous stuff here for kids, not just profanity. An MMO isnt going to totally shield them from whats out there.
But we can.
I know this sounds like a good idea on the surface, but believe me when I say, this plan would bring out the foul language speakers and peace disrupters in droves .. to the wrong server. They'lll do it for spite and because it feels good to them to put others down. Same reason that they'll ramp it up in chat if you threaten to report them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Celedir
The solutions for this situation are not perfect, but they are in place: /ignore, report but don't tell them you are, try reasoning with them if you can do so without getting dragged into an argument. I've had a fair amount of success getting chat "toned down" just by being civil and asking politely. Doesn't always work, but I'm a fast draw with /ignore.
To the OP, I feel your pain, I dislike what I'm seeing also, but the game is a microcosm of life and the players are people afterall. I agree that's it's a beautiful game to let the kids watch, but since the kids are under age for the game, you limit the environment that they see to things that are "age appropriate", yes? You can do the same with chat - by creating a chat tab that only shows the NPC dialog, and activating that whenever they are watching. I don't have access the game atm, but I believe it would be /say that you'd want enabled. You could add in /k and /f too, if those are channels that are acceptable to you.
Here's something I did with my own kids (not in LOTRO, my kids were grown by the time I started playing) although you may not agree with it .. I used the bad behavior (and inappropriate names) as a learning opportunity. Once they were old enough to play or watch me play, we'd talk about the different things people said, and the way they behaved ('good' and 'bad'), and the kids, on their own, came to some great conclusions about human nature and tolerance - including their own. I'm not so naive as to think my kids aren't going to hear those words or see those behaviors as they move through life, and it pleases me to know that they were equipped to handle them whenever and wherever they were.
I think Turbine can do two things: hire more GMs, & give us unlimited Ignore lists. The former is almost certainly not going to happen; the latter is something I dearly wish would be a standard practice in every MMO, because after all, human idiocy is unlimited, so my Iggy list should be too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradd
Beyond that, tho, it's incumbent upon each individual player to "clean up" the chat channels for themselves. Putting people on Ignore works to prevent that particular person from ever offending you again, & since you've no control over whether or not other people are offended, it's the best method of "protecting" oneself from nasty conversations.
Turning off chat channels is an imperfect situation, but for those who truly think the channels are nothing but virtual cesspools, there's really not much else that can be done.
The solution is that when your grandkids are around or if they want to play, turn off OOC, LFF, and sign out of GLFF. TRADE and ADVICE aren't used as much but you can turn those off too if you want. This doesn't seem like a big problem to me. Your grandkids are going to hear worse language at school.
I agree that this is a beautiful game that can be shared with children as long as we have a very cautionary attitude going in. It does sadden me a bit to think of the wonderful world of Middle Earth being tainted by things that I consider inappropriate; but , alas, it is the days of growing shadow.
My solution has been to 1)attempt to set a better example in all chat, 2)encourage better behavior by those who I feel may be crossing the line by a friendly comment, 3)use of the /ignore when necessary, 4)dropping out of a chat channel when it seems destined to spiral ever out of hand.
I really dislike when I have to drop out of chat channels for the mere fact that there will be those individuals who are earnestly seeking answers and help that may now become discouraged by the sometimes frustrating answers and responses that can revolve on the chat channels. And especially at the thought that they may be youngsters who merely need simple guidance. But, ultimately, I have to choose not to let others ruin the experience for myself.
Playing on Crickhollow since f2p launch, I must say that it has not been a daily rampant problem; but there are moments when the decline starts that it really goes fast. I am most encouraged by those who respond out of kindness and do all they can to navigate around those whose only purpose at times seems to be to disrupt the enjoyment of others.
I hold out hope that those who come only to frustrate will find themselves frustrated on move on.
Personally I havent seen any bad language, but then i play with all those channels filtered off and only have kin,say,emote fellowship and a few private channels and its bliss!
Thankfully we have the tools to filter, unlike real life where we have to put up with bad manners, rude behaviour and language that would make a truckie blush.
So again as many others have said, use your filters, use the profanity filter (although i dont Darn is not swearing in my book nor is hell...but then you yanks have some strange ideas on whats bad language and what isnt :) ) and ignore those channels. The game experience is all so much better for it!
I believe there is a certain % of the population that gets enjoyment from not just playing the game, or even playing the game at all, but from harrassing, upsetting, and stirring up people.
Those people exist. They may or may not actually "play" the game, but they DO get enjoyment from doing things that ruin others enjoyment.
The two questions that I see come out of that truth are these:
1> What responsibility does Turbine have to prevent, hinder, dissuade, ban, etc those people from participating in their game?
2> Is a greater % (not just greater #) of the player base these types of people with the inclusion of F2P? Note: of course the number is greater...more players = more of that %. But is the % greater IMHO is the key question.
IMHO?
1> A LOT, with respect to their game mechanics. A LOT, with respect to hate/racist/homophobic type speech. A LOT, with respect to targeted harrassment and griefing. A LITTLE, with respect to the "bad words" (this is what the filter is for).
2> Yes. I believe there is a MUCH higher % of these people currently in the game. Furthermore I believe there is a "critical mass" where there's enough of those players to actually make the game not enjoyable to others.
My solution?
Turbine needs to make sure their game ENCOURAGES positive and supportive play, and DISCOURAGES those who want to just stir up trouble. I'm a much larger fan of implementing controls, devices and mechanics that keep these people from being trouble in the first place rather than throwing an army of GMs at the game to police the after effects. But that's difficult to do AND encourage the masses to try the game and hopefully get hooked.
In the meantime? I've never enabled GLFF. It's a ridiculous channel and I have no desire to be a part of that, before F2P or now. IMHO the controls around the F2P players are pretty solid, they can't really harrass directly thanks to the controls on tells, they can't really grief other players thanks to the PvMP lockout, and they can't really spam/bork up economy issues due to the controls around the AH and their gold caps. But open channels are just that, open channels. And in any game/social interaction where open communication is available people can and will be jerks. If for no other reason than just to stir up trouble.
Anyhow, that's my 2 cents.
My parents used a particularly well thought out strategy, and that was to stop hiding their children from the world as if that protected environment would serve them as adults. If we came across something "indecent" or otherwise (and seemingly) inappropriate for children, they'd explain it in simple terms. They wouldn't rush us away or cover our eyes. We would just continue whatever we were doing.
When we were tiny tots, a foul mouth was explained as a foul mouth, and to not speak like that. They made no big deal of it in front of us, and so we never spoke like that as children. They used humor too.
My father and I (who was five) were driving on a long trip, and this woman by the roadside was trying to catch a ride, enticing everyone by having no shirt or bra. My father asked, "Should we stop to pick her up?"
My reply? "No. She was smoking."
We both laughed our arses off. I knew that she had a chest, that she was trying to get a ride. I didn't want to see her in our car. AND she was smoking. I was five. Being of the world is more important. Keeping their children safe, to my parents eyes, meant sometimes giving us the world in small manageable doses.
Chat needs some filtering (which you can control by the way), but going off the deep end emotionally in front of our children, and hiding our children away, pretending that this will serve them as adults, only hampers and hinders their growth.
Well yes Bree is bad. But frankly I've always avoided Bree if I could because something in the air there just make grumpy people. Bree has ALWAYS (in the 3 years I have been playing) been bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Livejazz
Yeah there are a few more popping up the The Shire but they seem to settle down once they are greeted with the friendliness of folk that charactarizes the Shire.
Itt'll settle down and its got nothing do with whether they are free to play or new subscribers. A large influx of peopel in general will create some turmoil, then, given time, the turmoil will die down.
I agree with this point - Turbine has a lot or responsibility in this area. They spelled out the ToC for online play, and are responsible for consistently enforcing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thane9
On the note of GMs around - I am positive that the GMs are responding quickly to chat abuse complaints. Just because a person hasn't been booted, doesn't mean they haven't been warned. They have an account infraction system in place that we don't necessarily see, right away.
They have a system in place that warns and educates players about their conduct, and results in bans for repeat offenders.
Any free game will attract a broader array of players, lore junkies (like you and me), all the way to professional vitriolists. As time goes on, Trolls will get repeatedly banned (on their several accounts), some "marginal" players will learn to enjoy being positively involved in the world, and others will leave.Quote:
2> Is a greater % (not just greater #) of the player base these types of people with the inclusion of F2P? Note: of course the number is greater...more players = more of that %. But is the % greater IMHO is the key question.
A> Yes. I believe there is a MUCH higher % of these people currently in the game. Furthermore I believe there is a "critical mass" where there's enough of those players to actually make the game not enjoyable to others.
Another thing that would make chat control a lot easier is if we could just right-click report someone for various offenses (besides being a gold seller.) Truthfully, I haven't needed to report a gold seller in over a year. But I have needed to report serious channel abuses (attacking other players / using racial slurs, etc...)Quote:
Turbine needs to make sure their game ENCOURAGES positive and supportive play, and DISCOURAGES those who want to just stir up trouble. I'm a much larger fan of implementing controls, devices and mechanics that keep these people from being trouble in the first place rather than throwing an army of GMs at the game to police the after effects. But that's difficult to do AND encourage the masses to try the game and hopefully get hooked.
In the meantime? I've never enabled GLFF. It's a ridiculous channel and I have no desire to be a part of that, before F2P or now. IMHO the controls around the F2P players are pretty solid, they can't really harrass directly thanks to the controls on tells, they can't really grief other players thanks to the PvMP lockout, and they can't really spam/bork up economy issues due to the controls around the AH and their gold caps. But open channels are just that, open channels. And in any game/social interaction where open communication is available people can and will be jerks. If for no other reason than just to stir up trouble.
Anyhow, that's my 2 cents.
The occasional four letter word doesn't bother me personally, and I'll educate my children that using that language isn't acceptable around me, even if "all their friends are doing it" (this includes online and offline)
Not a problem on Nimrodel as far as I've seen, but felt like playing lower levels so was playing on crickhollow and it was pretty bad...I switched to Brandywine and it was far worse, now returned to Nimrodel....think I'll stick there...perhaps the nimrod in the name kept most of them away from it.
BTW, lots of posters warned of this, and all those hardcore posters that seem to own the forums made fun of any concerns as usual.
My only advice is to get your kins to get a no tolorance attitude and ....don't ignore them or filter it out...after all it's not just the language, it's mean-spirited people with no standards that you really don't want to group with even if they watched their language...report them, every time...perhaps the worse ones will go away.
For those that say "this type of behavior is common, just ignore it." Really? Do you really believe that? All the freedoms that you claim to have in America only came because a few people would stand up and try to make changes. Racial equality, gender equality, freedom of press, freedom of speech, freedom from search, etc. All these came because brave people stood up.
To the freedom of speech people. Go to a movie theater tonight. Halfway through the movie stand up and yell "FIRE" and see just how long your freedom lasts.
The chat and naming in this game IS getting worse. I created a newbie alt just for the sake of playing around Bree to help new people. In the 3 years I played this game before F2P, I never reported anybody. In the few weeks since F2P started I have felt the need to report 3 people for naming violations, and have ignored A LOT of people for chat problems.
The naming violations had to do with the male anatomy, the despotic tyrant leader of North Korea, and a drug reference.
Reporting those names, and making them get changed is fine I suppose. Ignore keeps me from having to see the words from those particular characters again. However, it doesn't really solve anything. It is like putting a band-aid on a compound fracture. Taking your concerns to Turbine's forums allows Turbine to see that there are discontent people. If Turbine sees enough discontent people they may make some changes. They have changed many things in this game over the last 3 years because people have spoken up.
Well said! I agree. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by GV-Tanith
Just like every other group out there, there are bad people and there are good people. I've met quite a few nice, mature F2P'ers since launch earlier this month, but then there are those that absolutely kill the game because they are there only to troll because it's free for them to play.
Same goes for RP'ers. Same goes for VIP's.
No group is immune, but it's no reason to blame the bunch for the bad apple.
Agreed. It seems parents are so over-protective these days. With anti-bacterial soaps and disinfectants, parental locks on TV, not letting your kid go anywhere but the backyard, no spanking. It's ridiculous. When your kid gets screwed up you have no one to blame but yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by ETSubmariner
I know I am going to get it for saying this. But the game is rated "T" for Teen. I don't let my 9 year old near any mmo!! That is what her ps2 is for. Leggo for the win. There are time's she expresses interest in my game and I know she is not ready for interaction with the other players. I can control my 9 year old, I cant control the troll on the other side of the keyboard.
We once had a discussion of a farther who had joined our kin, wanted us to guild up his 6 year old. I will say this It gave us a lot of cause for concern. Turned out the 6 year old was allowed to play unsupervised, and well his behaviour was so bad that there was an officer meeting that resulted in the removal of the father and son team.
Allowing small kids to play a game that's meant for big kids and adults is problematic at best. I will say this what are you thinking allowing a 9 year old near the keyboard?
I am sorry they were exposed to something, but that's is on the op. Allowing children to have unsupervised access is on the parent, grandparent or whoever is watching the child.
Now I will have to say even I have noticed the past week things in glff are worse even on brandywine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livejazz
Here is what will happen TO YOU
You ignore the players and the problem and for a time this works but.....
New players coming into the game only see the bad behavior and either start acting like them or get a very bad impression of the game and leave for a better more mature game.
Over time your kin and friends start to leave and you will need to replace members. Guess what!!
Server is full of nasty players and you have a hard time finding anyone nice.
Want an example of what happens?? Check out DDO and see if you can get to level 5 with the chat channels on and then see if you can get one pug group that isn't bad.
You cannot ignore these guys......you have to report them otherwise hey will take over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glavian
The game is not a forums and banning does work. See these guys have to work to level their characters and getting banned and having to start over sucks. Plus its not that hard to ban a IP. They will get fed up with getting banned and float over to some other F2P game. Even if they do come back if the GMs and players are on the ball they will never get out of the starter areas unless they start conforming to the standards the game community sets.
Putting your head in the sand and pretending its not there doesn't work in the game. New Players will only see them talking in chat and think thats just the way it is and either move to nicer games or act like the rude players. You won't know what is going on till its to late. You have to report them and once they get banned a couple times its no fun to re level characters and they will move on to other games.
Plus by ignoring them you are telling turbine its ok to keep them around
Not that an online game carries the same risk but would you leave your grand kids alone in a room with 100 complete strangers?
If you knew the kids were about, you should have killed all the public channels, have the obscenity filter ON and parked your toon in a housing area.
I can't say my server hasn't gotten worse with the new influx, but I have had OOC turned off because *I* don't want to see half the stuff that is there.
Friend of mine has a 7 year old and all he does with her is play dress up and house in the housing area and visit the hobbits and elves and dwarves.
In the course of reading through this thread, I am compelled to state a few truths concerning the situation, whether you believe them or not, for your consideration:
- There seems to be a growing tendency towards dismissing the acts of the vile and the profane as something that is simply becoming more “common” in online gaming. This dismissal is, unfortunately, based on a false premise. Man’s tendency towards this type of behaviour is millennia old; the only thing that has changed is Man’s rate of acceptance of it as “free expression”.
- The pattern of acceptance is not unlike an addiction in the mind, and, like any addiction, there will be the inevitable progression from acceptance to self-enslavement. If you doubt this, consider just profanity. Once on a profane road, it becomes increasingly difficult to step off of it, isn’t it? It’s all right; you don’t have to admit to anything out loud, but you know the answer.
- However, even though increasing numbers continue to say that these types of behaviour are acceptable – or even “good” – the fact remains that what is evil is evil. Deep down, in the bowels of one’s conscience, everyone knows full well what is good and bad, whether one says it out loud or not or even whether one admits it to oneself or not. It is known, and, once one knows, one cannot “un-know”.
- By simply and exclusively ignoring these behaviours, one gives them a free pass and does no one any good, save, perhaps, one’s own selfish comforts. People who pay attention to their conscience see the error and want it corrected, not only for themselves but for the sake of others.
- There are those, perhaps, that believe that the maintenance of a good gaming community requires the laissez-faire attitude of leaving others alone and not stepping on toes. However, history has proven, time and again, that the rule of law, the acknowledgment of right and wrong and judging appropriately, has created better communities than an anarchistic model.
- Turbine has released their EULA/Code of Conduct in definite terms. This is the line in the sand. This is the barrier that one does not breach without consequence. Turbine has also, in addition to making the ignore feature available, has also created a system, which uses Help tickets, by which abusive players can be brought to account for the wrong they do. To use this system responsibly, with the EULA/Code of Conduct as the authority behind your reports, one actually does better for the community, while also allowing you to avoid confrontations that Turbine is better equipped and authorized to handle anyway.
It is my hope that this information will be useful for you.
I've got to say... it depends on the channels. I have OOC and Regional turned off, and never will even consider that puketastic GLFF channel again either. Advice can be bad in the low level areas, but overall it's usually fairly nice.
Personally, I've given up reporting people shortly after launch. Turbine won't do squat about CoC/ToS violators anyway.
Avoiding is not the same as ignoring. I don't ignore it, if it gets in my face I will report it, but I don't go out of my way looking for it. If I can lessen my exposure to it with simple measures, I will. It is not really up to the users to police Turbine's game. I have to assume they will take care of enforcement of stated policies. If it is that bad for you, I would say vote with your feet and move along or write a thoughtful non-ranting e-mail to the devs.