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"Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior."
... does it mean a more dynamic way to fight for hunters ?
Huntsman+precision stance could be THE way to go in the Moors if you are able to fire on the move and handle closed combat. If so, ok we will be true Bow and Blade warriors ;).
more? no... less is good, we have enough crowd control - even without this traitline - with it its to much in my opionion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucanthanas
i do not want to be a blade warrior, if i want to be one, i`ll play a champion.Quote:
I want to give you something to chew on and speculate, postulate and discuss:
Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.
and for the rest: i`ll think about, if there are more details.
This. Very much this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caranthon
We have plenty of melee classes, and only one dedicated ranged class. Let's keep it that way, shall we?
I have to say I like the recent changes. I play my hunter a lot more because of them. But I have to agree with the people saying lets wait and see before we riot. I do believe that ZC has earned our trust and we should see what ideas are being offered before we hang anyone.
I think the idea has always been for us to have 3 trait lines that we actually want to use. Right now I see a mix of two. I feel this is just an attempt to give us more options, not take away what we have.
I would like to see a buff to agile rejoiner heal. I viable heal option for hunters would be awesome. And if any other melee skill can give focus I would be all for that as well.
i'm confused... really... this hunter community is making me wonder...
first... everyone complains about how our melee skills aren't worth spit... and complain about how our DPS suffers in melee range of an opponent... THEN complains when ZC tells us that melee is going to be buffed!
remember, folks, hunter class is based on Legolas... and while Legolas was a true master of the bow, he was equally adept at slicing orcs to pieces in melee. hunter is NOT EXCLUSIVELY an archer.
now lets look at trait lines for classes:
LM: 1 for tactical DPS, 1 for pets, 1 for CC
RK: 1 for DoTs, 1 for HoTs, 1 for kiting DPS
Ch: 1 for AoE, 1 for ST, 1 for tanking
Gu: 1 for threat, 1 for DPS, 1 for mitigating damage
Wa: 1 for heals, 1 for threat, 1 fpr DPS
Mi: 1 for heals, 1 for buffs, 1 for DPS
Ca: 1 for buffs, 1 for heals, 1 for DPS/pets
there is a basic theme here, that each trait line does something inherently different... now lets look at hunters
1 for ranged DPS
1 for ranged DPS
1 for CC
doesn't that look strange to you? bowmaster makes every arrow hit harder, and huntsman makes you shoot more arrows in the same period as time... but they serve the exact same function: ranged DPS. some say solo vs raid. the trouble is, we should be able to use any of the three lines equally as viable regardless of party size, dependant on class makeup. IE, if there are three hunters in the group, they should each be able to run a different trait line and still benefit the group, just like how extra minnies can run WS or tier ballads, just like extra LMs can trait for pets or tactical DPS, just like extra captains can trait however they want.
right now... hunters are STILL pigeonholed into running heartseeker in the moors, or running focus-burn in raids. the gap is narrower between bowmaster and huntsman than it once was, but they still function the same way: stand still, use inductions, use focus, DPS ST. at least RKs two DPS line function differently: run around spiking... or stand still DoTing. champs go ST or AoE...
think of update 2 as part 1 of the hunter update, just like update 2 was part 1 of the Legendary Item update.
my personal view toward our melee skills... right now they are only useful for their utility. this ought not so to be... our melee skills should make up for the lost ranged damage when we are in melee. and right now, in melee, all we do is lose out on ranged DPS.
/end_wall_of_text
/enter_the_bacon
Fine. Then give us a line that does ranged aoe and a line that does ranged single target. Or a line that has kiting dps and a line for stationary. *These* I can live with. They match what the class is built to do well. A melee line is a line that encourages us to do something that the class does badly, especially in comparison to the numerous other classes that do melee well. That line is very unlikely to be usable which means it narrows our flexibility and reduces the experience of playing the class. I don't see why this is complicated.
There is a small chance that hunter melee skills and traits are rethought enough that hunters can actually make a distinctive and productive melee contribution that other classes can't--this I *might* be able to get behind (but I'd probably still rather play a champ).
The role of the hunter is ranged dps. Secondarily CC. Just like all the classes FL listed, we have a primary role that we excel at and others we don't. No one asks a loremaster to come along for tactical dps and if loremasters had to depend on that to get in groups they'd be out of luck. That line is a soloing line. Just like our bowmaster line is. Just like Guardian overpower, warden dps, etc. The same could be said of basically every class. To argue they all have 3 different functions while we have two is misleading, to say the least. The problem with the proposal is that is sounds like it will make hunters less good at their primary function. If so, this is definitely a step backwards.
The portion of the hunter community that fails to understand this or obscure it behind simplistic comparisons makes me sick (not really, just trying to get in the hyperbolic spirit of those among us who are prospecting on the bright side).
ZC --
Perhaps we should wait on any Hunter changes this soon to a major revamp. Give things a bit more time to settle (and for the new relics to come out, which will change builds again). Can we revisit these Hunter changes in another 3 months?
If you were to change anything, change Strength of the Earth to Morale every second instead of ICMR like it is now.
Personally, I wouldn't even change that. Don't change a thing until another few months have gone by, and more gameplay testing has been done. Things aren't perfect now I'll agree, but we also haven't been able to do enough poking and prodding to see what should be tweaked. And tweaks are what are needed, not another wholesale revamp.
Please.
Great post! I agree, particularly about the TOF line. I'd love to use it more, but the penalty is way too high considering you're giving up the bonuses you'd getting traiting the other lines then getting a penalty on top of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieJesus
I liked the last update, but I would like to be able to use the TOF line some.
I've got a better idea. Restore Strength of the Earth so it fully replenishes our power again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus
EDIT: ...and leave the rest of our "stuff" alone.
And, thanks for editing my post Celestrata. You must be joking. Really. You removed my implied cussing, which I entered using ampersands and dollar signs? Really?
Off-topic, this morning I went shopping @ the store and spent $1.00. (<----Celestrata, please censor this too!)
Editing the above posted list of traitlines for better accuracy/fairer treatment. Top is fairer treatment, bottom is lumping.
LM: 1 for DPS, 1 for pets, 1 for CC
RK: 1 for sustained DPS, 1 for burst DPS, 1 for HoTs
Ch: 1 for AoE, 1 for ST, one useless one
Gu: 1 for threat, 1 for DPS, 1 for mitigating damage
Wa: 1 for heals, 1 for threat, 1 fpr DPS
Mi: 1 for heals, 1 for DPS and one useless one
Ca: 1 for buffs, 1 for heals, 1 useless one
HNT: 1 for Ranged burst DPS w/ threat, 1 for sustained ranged DPS w/less threat, CC (mostly useless but functional)
OR,
LM: 1 for tactical DPS, 1 for CC , one useless one
RK: 2 for tactical DPS, 1 for HoTs
Ch: 1 for AoE, 1 for ST, one useless one
Gu: 2 for tanking, 1 for DPS
Wa: 2 for tanking, 1 fpr DPS
Mi: 1 for heals, 1 for DPS and one useless one
Ca: 1 for buffs, 1 for heals, 1 useless one
HNT: 2 for ranged DPS, CC (mostly useless but functional)
Why am I not surprised that most of the posts here are people screaming "NO NO NO NO" at the top of their lungs without giving 10 seconds of actual thought to the situation? How about this - go to your corner, sit down, and be quite while the adults are talking? Some of us actually have a measurable reading comprehension and would like to have a civil discourse to come up with possible ideas and/or suggestion without having to filter through 4 pages of people who are in a state of panic over as-yet-unknown changes.
For me, I like the idea of a Bow & Blade warrior. Maybe I'm old-school, but I enjoyed the Luclin/ POP days of Everquest when rangers had the option to focus on ranged combat or melee combat, or even do some of both. It was comforting knowing that I could switch between ranged damage or melee damage depending on which was the best option for a particular fight. I was even happy when one of the WoW developers mentioned that one of their concepts for improving hunter survivability in PvP there was to increase the classes melee damage enough to make simply hugging the hunter not the automatic best option for non-melee classes.
Of course I'm also one of the "blasphemous" hunters who dares to finish of a monster that gets into melee range with melee skills (and has some extra melee damage ranks on his LI) instead of simply freaking out and spending more time getting range than it would take to finish said monster off with melee. So to me the option of being able to take down the unseen add that joined the fight without having to run around gaining distance and the attention of a whole bunch more monsters is actually attractive.
Heck it MIGHT even get me out to try the moors once or twice. Personally I find the game of "shoot, burn cooldowns to get away, shoot again" that you annoyances call "hunter PvP" stale and boring. Having the option to decide if I want to try to finish off a 2/3 dead melee class who closed the range with melee or to try to get back to range with the attendant options might just make me want to dabble in MMORPG PvP agai. Tha is something I haven't done since the very early days of WoW (as in before any server could field a full raid of level-capped characters).
and that's the other thing i don't get...
how does melee buff = ranged nerf? how? how?
right now, if a mob closes into melee with us, it reduces our ranged DPS... how? melee auto-attacks do less damage than ranges auto attacks, inductions get interrupted, hunter gets CC'd... and melee attacks do spit for damage... so typically a hunter will CC or kite, which further reduces DPS due to movement. you may like that style of play... i do not. i prefer to stand toe-to-toe, as do enough others that turbine has realized that melee skills need to be buffed.
for 4 years people on these forums have complained that melee skills are not worth using. ZC just said they are going to fix that. read the official hunter class description. it says hunters are BOTH good archers and good MELEE. the melee part has obviously not been approved by the community. a bow and blade line could buff melee to what it's supposed to be WITHOUT nerfing ranged damage output.
everybody agrees that we hunters have ONE good ranged DPS line... fine... combine the two ranged DPS lines into one. (face it bowmaster still sucks) and make another line for those in the community which want 5 useless skill made into something that's actually useful.
i can't believe people are against a class buff. you can't use a melee skill at the same time as a ranged skill... if all they do is ADD a 4 HM bonus to add +100% melee damage, and remove the S:S req from BM, how is that a nerf in any way?
yes update2 was a great update for hunters. it made 2 useless traitlines less useless. and made our capstones actually worth traiting. but it didn't fix hunters completely... we still have 5 useless melee skills. the utility benefits from skills that should be available for DPS.
nobody is asking that hunters are turned into champs. just that melee skills are useful in combination with ranged skills so that our DPS doesn't go down when we are in melee.
and that 3/4 ToF is useful... right now ToF is only useful going all in for the chain mez capstone
ZC said this:
Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.
You all get super melee buffs that allow you to go toe-to-toe in the moors, combined huntman and bowmaster lines, and no narrowing of flexibility of ranged dps from the above.
On the changes, you are wishcasting. Where does it say you will be able to go toe-to-toe in the moors? Where does it say that focus and induction will be combined with no net nerf to either? One thing he did say is that CC is going to take a hit. Nothing in what ZC has said (so far) says what you say it says. You want to imagine that he has promised a pot of enhancements at the end of a developer's rainbow. Reading comprehension ftw.
Moreover, it was posted asking for input. ZC did not ask to only have input from people who agree with what he has proposed, despite your efforts to police the forum for him.
On the discourse, two people on this page have been insulting to the community they disagree with which is supposedly either childish or making them sick. Not surprisingly they are the same people celebrating their own reasonableness and maturity. Self-awareness ftw.
By adult, do you mean condescending?Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilTreerat
It's okay to voice disapproval over potential "improvements" that could damage the hunter class mechanics. Or would you prefer LOTRO goes live with something terrible, and we can all yell and scream on the go live date? Maybe they'll fix it then. Maybe they'll fix it in a faster time frame than the many months it took to fix the LI lottery system and radiance gating.
I'll go sit in my corner and be "quite" now.
first... i was responding in kind to all the stuart little posts...
second... i don't give a spit about the moors, and none of my comments supporting the buff of melee skills have anything to do with the moors. seriously... i'm rank 4... that should tell you how little i care for the moors.
third... i haven't celebrated any maturity or reasonableness at all... i only celebrate bacon and the end of wars
fourth... read my disclaimer signature... you should know by now that my brashness is totally faked for entertainment only... you've read the hunter forums long enough to know i've been here from march 07...
fifth... exactly... ZC only mention less CC... nowhere did he mention lower ranged DPS... and yet so many people act like "bow and blade" means ranged DPS nerf... explain to me how "bow and blade" means ranged DPS nerf? especially when melee is part of the class advertisement; part of the class description.
sixth... a lot more than 2 people have been disrespectful in this thread. "this page" can mean anywhere from 10 posts to 100 posts, depending on what each user set the browser to display.
seventh... i ran out of bacon this weekend while my account was stolen right out from under me. thankfully, Turbined banned it before anything could be taken from it. only reason i mention this, is that i couldn't post in this thread for several days because of the situation, and so it festered within me about all the stuart little posts.
eighth... there have been several very long threads hotly debating whether hunters should have decent melee capabilities... and the only conclusion derived: is that there are enough people that say that hunter melee skills are useless, and enough people that point out that melee is clearly in the hunter class description, that hunter melee needs to be buffed into usefulness. again, nobody is asking for hunters to melee like a champion. just that hunter melee skills aren't useless.
ninth... i'm sick anyway, not because of the forums, but because i'm actually sick... and i'm not asking for sympathy... just simply that everyone quits screaming so loudly about "if you want to melee, go roll a champ." (i will also update my previous post to remove the word sick)
tenth... [edit:] and nowhere did i represent that my examples of possible changes were in any way implied by ZC's post
eleventh... i've now counted to ten, and have such calmed down.
Forgotten Legend:
OK, I conflated you with EvilTreeRat unfairly. True enough.
But still. You note that lotro has always thought of the hunter as a good melee warrior such that they even advertise it in the class description. You seem to think that this means that the devs will finally take it seriously because ZC wants to commit some undetermined part of a traitline to it. To which I will simply respond that the devs have for years mistakenly thought they created a melee/bow class when all along you and most of the other people who have been playing since 2007 have known full well that they had done nothing of the sort. I built my hunter based on this forum. The forum is correct. The developers are not.
In other words, for 4 years the devs have not understood the class they created. Update 2 basically acknowledges the truth of the situation. Finally. So, ZC comes along and says that he is going to actually make the hunter class that was originally advertised even though the devs have never demonstrated their ability to do that with the result that the class has had useless skills, useless traits and badly designed trait lines. You choose to assume two things. 1.) that ZC will solve the problem that no other developer has. OK, maybe. I'd like to see more details and if there were a line on this in Vegas I'm pretty sure there would be longshot odds on ZC. I'll stick with the smart money (along with plenty of others who have responded). 2.) you assume that the changes will result in a net benefit in the combined bowmaster line. Maybe, but I seriously doubt it. 1+2=wishcasting. Sure, it's more optimistic, but it's no more reasonable than people who think a combined ranged dps line is likely to gimp one or the other build or that committing a trait line to melee (the 6th best melee in the game! Hooray!) is a waste of a line that reduces flexibility. ZC's last update demonstrates a good understanding of the class, but that doesn't mean the developers like it or know how to implement their ideas correctly. This is probably part of why he asked for feedback in the first place.
What you have is an opinion (which on the surface looks like a commentary on the "Stuart Littles"--no doubt a reasonable and justified characterization). You support this opinion with things like your comparison of class traitlines (which should be stickied in every class forum as a standing troll post). Based on what we have to work with (next to nothing) there is no more reason to be optimistic than pessimistic (perhaps less?). You are hopeful (Forgotten Legend says: "i can't believe people are against a class buff" (wth?!?)). I congratulate you on your optimism and I sincerely hope you get well soon.
first i will give a suggestion then start yelling
on the topic of aminations (i believe someone on page four mentioned it) i would like to see a shorter animation on purge pioson which in combat takes a fair bit of time away from pew pewing and between fights it can take a while to heal a fellowship. also i would like to see our sneek skill (the one u can move in while using) last something like twenty seconds or at least a legacy that would allow it
now alot of u have posted very long posts that SAY THE SAME THING if u dont read other posts and just skip all the other ones at least make urs short as in when u type u dont need to scroll or smaller
now i maybe wrong but i thought bowmaster was supposed to be bighiter and huntsman dps, not both dps
I'll wait and see, but I can't this being good at present. A true bow and sword expert? I like the geater use of traps idea, and better DPS idea ranged..but I believe hunters were only able to "defend themselves in melee in need" was the quote from the hunter class video/description.
If you are planning to leave us less than max ranged DPS and make us less than max melee and max CC as well then I'll be very unhappy. I don't melee much, nor do I want to. I play ranged because with a 256ms latency in NZ the "you must face target" gets extremely annoying.
I remember the good job you did back on the RK subforum, ZC. Here's hoping to have a good discussion here about Hunters!Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus
I have to start with the same general concern voiced many times in this thread: we just absorbed a wide-ranging shuffle of trait lines, so it is surprising to see this again.
Specific thoughts:
1. If BM and S:S are split, what happens to the threat/power tradeoffs for increased damage?
2. By "Bow and Blade" you mean Bow and Weapon, right? My hobbit has been working on bringing up a new 2A club; I hope I'm not going to be sorry.
3. If the changes allow us to do certain roles (spike damage, sustained DPS, CC) better, then that is great. If they nerf the peak performance in any role, that will be bad.
.
That gives me an idea.... ToF traitline would allow Desperate Flight to work as an AoE for your whole group to escape!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithium777
And that gives me an idea for a new skill (maybe the hunter forced emote):Quote:
Originally Posted by GSO86
Desperate Cowardice:
CD: 1 hour
Target: 1 Fellowship member
Effect: Sends the target to the nearest rez circle.
/sh D2 <Can I have it?> <Reward:> 3k
Wow, SaintBass, then you missed it badly, heh.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintBass
I went back and tallied up all the responses right up to the point Bastiat1 said "19 to 1". I included his own post in opposition, of course, as he would naturally count himself. I did not count posts that didn't include some fairly clear viewpoint. I did not double-count people who made multiple posts. It came out 21 to 3, with 6 others in a "wait and see" mode. So 19 to 1 isn't too far off...the opposition, PARTICULARLY the opposition to shifting hunters more toward melee combat, is pretty darn strong.
Yes, yes, I know that 21:3 reduces to 7:1 which is very different from 19:1, but it's still 21 people saying 'yuck' while very few are saying 'awesome'. Bastiat's _sense_ wasn't far off at all. And 7:1 is still a landslide of opposition.
Here's how I tallied them up:
Sounds Wrong: (21) Lithium777, Finrandiras, d3sperad0, Galahadur, Cherep, Cubi, lwk1138, Lothran, harkamsu, Daynab, CWood, Tamiya, Aliendha, ZombieJesus, ScrappyTheGreat, Tinluen, anwar, Feybobiam, drexele, Hirandiel, Bastiat1
I'm Excited: (3) SoccerMike, SaintBass, cold_realms
Wait and See: (6) Yosoff, NameAlreadyTaken, Murtallica, Lycaunoss, Macroscian, FyreBrand.
@ZC: I actually believe most of those in all three categories I tried to shove them in are actually willing to wait and see to some extent, but we're a somewhat battered and bruised lot from all the sharp turns the Turbine bus has made in the past with this (and other) classes, and so we're a bit skittish. With some really nice suggestions (and a few crackpot ideas) in the thread of ways we REALLY think you could improve the class, there's definitely room to do something here. Just hoping it does not include anything to do with shifting the class within melee range of the enemy, even if just in one of our 3 trait lines. Best to you!
I don't think that many people complain that our melee skills are weak (in terms of DPS value). People point it out, noting that you're better off using bow skills even at melee range, but I think it's much more often a statement of fact, than a complaint. I have no problem w/ the fact that our melee skills are only good for their buffs or debuffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgotten_Legend
And to one of your later points, it's possible that we could get a boost to melee without our ranged options suffering, but you have to admit there's plenty of precedence for the +1 here, -1 (or even -2) there style of "buffing".
That said, despite the fact that I posted my suspicion that the OP may have been a tardy April Fools joke, I don't see much point in complaining or worrying about possible upcoming changes till we actually know what those changes are going to be. We've got 7 pages of - mostly - people freaking out about the vaguest of specs for possible upcoming changes. I think there's several other people that need to follow the Baconairre's lead and count to 10 and calm down.
With the mild way you stated it, I'd put myself in group 1, tho with a strong leaning toward group 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothran
EDIT: Put me down as 'dubious' in Halvr's list.
Depends on how you look at it, I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothran
For example: How many of those would qualify as actual opposition? For myself, I think making any change is an asinine idea at this point (Turbine has enough class-balance issues without completely overhauling classes once every three months -and- "If it ain't broke, don't fix it") and I think it's going to cause a huge stink on the forums (ZOMG UR TAKEING MY DAMIGE!!!1~!@!#~@~!@), but I'd hardly say I'm opposed to the change itself.
Went through and made my own list, in four categories. Same as you, I skipped duplicates (I did try to consider all a person's posts rather than just one) and facetious posts (my own and the dual-wielding-dwarf-runekeepers sub-conversation, for example). Here's how I broke it down:
Interested
NAT
SoccerMike
SB
cold_realms
FyreBrand
Neutral
Yosoff
Big_Scooter
Murtallica
D3-Rook
drexle
Lycaunoss
Dubious
Lithium777
Finrandiras
Cherep
lwk1138
Lothran
Tamiya
Aliendha
ZombieJesus
Ozthorn
ScrappyTheGreat
anwar
Opposed
d3sperad0
Galahadur
Cubi
harkamsu
Daynab
Tinluen
Feybobiam
Hirandiel
bastiat1
That's 9:22 that are actually opposed to the changes, or roughly 1:7. Even if you count the ones that are dubious as being opposed, it'd still only be 20:11, or 2:1. That's a far cry from 19:1.
That was my point. I don't disagree that there is opposition or even assert that its unfounded, but it doesn't do anyone any favors to misrepresent things... like a few non-hunters saying that "rifle is fine" (link NSFW-Language). I am excited to see what is in store, but that does not mean that I will support it. I was actually endorsing a much more "wait and see" approach... and my excitement mostly stems from the class getting some consistent Dev attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothran