Why are people so spectacularly bad at playing their classes?

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Originally Posted by Repriever

People play better and learn their classes more if they have something to lose by dying.

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Some do. Others just go play something else. I don't mind harsh penalties - my first and probably still favorite MMO was one in which a "bad death" meant you could lose your best equipment. But I had friends and monarchy members in that game who left specifically because of the death penalty. They loathed it, and it sucked the fun out of the game for them. The same was true of some of the people I played FFXI with - losing XP and sometimes losing a level because you died was infuriating. (I didn't leave because of that... I left because it became so utterly group-centric past my 20s).

I doubt we'll ever go back to seeing many new games with harsh death penalties because the mass market hates that. It might result in more skilled players, but fewer of them. Game companies don't make money off of "skilled". They make money off of "volume" and "retention".

Khafar

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Originally Posted by Chanah

Fear is a lousy motivator. For those who like those kinds of games, though, there's EVE, and a few others. It would probably make people stick to Fed-Ex and other 'safe' quests, and not do instances/go after elites/take chances - because the risk is too high. Wardens wouldn't be able to be crazy and solo all the things we solo anymore, because we'd never get to a high enough level to do them (I'm not saying other classes don't do the same thing, just we're kinda known for this sort of insanity.)

And in a game like LoTRO? A lot of folks would just quit. I don't like to think of just turning 65, doing an instance, and being instantly demoted to 62 from dying because I'd never done the instance, didn't know the tactics, or - and it's not just my computer though in my case that is an issue - there are also lag spikes. Especially in raids.

About the only groups you'd find are ones doing mail and pies in the Shire if there was a heftier death penalty. Even Turbine (I don't think) would be willing to bank on people staying if they sold a pricey 'remove death penalty' scroll from the store.

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I think you've missed the point somewhat. This game is incredibly easy already. If you know how to play your class (particularly as a Warden since that's the example you gave) you're not going to die. Ever. As for not taking chances because the risk is too high what level of risk are you talking about? The only difference is you have to think before you act because you know running in blindly all guns blazing will have consequences. I'm not suggesting people actually go down a level through deaths just 'some' kind of penalty might make people think hmm.. I wonder what all those other buttons do?

It would have a knock-on effect in that people walking onto PUGs would be much more aware of what they can and can't do and might even learn to work in a team to avoid any kind of penalty through death. I wouldn't worry, it's never going to happen, I was just bringing it up as one of the reasons so many people haven't learned their class skills: they don't need to.

Yup - Line of Death, which must be mastered before you can cross it without seeing all your morale drain out before your eyes.

Oddly, I've found that many F2P players DON'T realise they can do book quests, and some rep quests without owning an area but they can - make friends with a hunter if you're a class that can't port, that's always a help, too.

And there are cool things in Angmar like Carn Dum and Urugarth (places that deserve the raid title just for being so massive), and a lot of the landscape monsters drop many minor class quest items. Plus a couple of rep factions that are open to F2Pers.

Or hey - you can helpfully tell them that they can spend 90 gold on the AH or maybe 10,000 to 12,000 skirmish marks and get their class items that way.

I like Forochel better than Angmar truthfully (I'm a cosmetics freak and a tailor and Lossoth armour makes me squee), but Angmar has book pages, class quest items, and all kindsa fun stuff, too. It's actually the one I'd recommend purchasing for that level, even though Forochel is just....beautiful and amazing and all that.

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Originally Posted by Khafar

my first and probably still favorite MMO was one in which a "bad death" meant you could lose your best equipment.

Khafar

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Was that Ultima Online? I loved that game. And yes I agree with you, we'll never see harsh death penalties in an MMO again. The market's changed too much but if we're brutally honest losing your gear blows bigtime anyway and just is NOT a good game mechanic lol.

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Originally Posted by Chanah

Fear is a lousy motivator. For those who like those kinds of games, though, there's EVE, and a few others. It would probably make people stick to Fed-Ex and other 'safe' quests, and not do instances/go after elites/take chances - because the risk is too high. Wardens wouldn't be able to be crazy and solo all the things we solo anymore, because we'd never get to a high enough level to do them (I'm not saying other classes don't do the same thing, just we're kinda known for this sort of insanity.)

And in a game like LoTRO? A lot of folks would just quit. I don't like to think of just turning 65, doing an instance, and being instantly demoted to 62 from dying because I'd never done the instance, didn't know the tactics, or - and it's not just my computer though in my case that is an issue - there are also lag spikes. Especially in raids.

About the only groups you'd find are ones doing mail and pies in the Shire if there was a heftier death penalty. Even Turbine (I don't think) would be willing to bank on people staying if they sold a pricey 'remove death penalty' scroll from the store.

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The only game I remember that you would lose a level is EQ. In other games you could lose experience but only to the start of the level. In EQ it wasn't that bad anyway. You wouldn't lose a full level unless you died several times in a row. You only lost so much exp per death.

If it was more difficult and people had to group to beat at least some of the content or even think about going into a reputation dungeon at level then you would see a stronger community. People would stay as well, because they would have a sense of accomplishment.

Another common complaint I have seen in the forums is that people have too many skills. There are really not that many skills in this game per class. Some are used more in group some are used more solo. I would actually like to see some more skills for some of the classes especially ones around group play.

It almost seems as though people want to play these games in God mode from doom/hexen/etc. I really don't understand why people sign into an MMO and then never want to group. I can do that with Oblivion.

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Originally Posted by Khafar

Some do. Others just go play something else. I don't mind harsh penalties - my first and probably still favorite MMO was one in which a "bad death" meant you could lose your best equipment. But I had friends and monarchy members in that game who left specifically because of the death penalty. They loathed it, and it sucked the fun out of the game for them. The same was true of some of the people I played FFXI with - losing XP and sometimes losing a level because you died was infuriating. (I didn't leave because of that... I left because it became so utterly group-centric past my 20s).

I doubt we'll ever go back to seeing many new games with harsh death penalties because the mass market hates that. It might result in more skilled players, but fewer of them. Game companies don't make money off of "skilled". They make money off of "volume".

Khafar

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Going by numbers alone, Runescape is the second-highest played MMO in the world. Die in that game and you lose all but three items.

You don't stop playing (I played it for four years), but you do learn to play smart quite quickly.

Personally, I would have no problem with the introduction of a harsher death (0 morale) penalty in Lotro. Coming as I did from Runescape, I found Lotro's 'death' mechanic quite laughable. I understand that, as the hero of your own personal story, you can never really die, but to be able to wade into a camp full of Orcs and not be bothered by the consequences isn't entirely lore-friendly to say the least - unless you are Samwise Gamgee of course, but very few of us are THAT kind of heroic :) .

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Originally Posted by Repriever

I think you've missed the point somewhat. This game is incredibly easy already. If you know how to play your class (particularly as a Warden since that's the example you gave) you're not going to die. Ever. As for not taking chances because the risk is too high what level of risk are you talking about? The only difference is you have to think before you act because you know running in blindly all guns blazing will have consequences. I'm not suggesting people actually go down a level through deaths just 'some' kind of penalty might make people think hmm.. I wonder what all those other buttons do?

It would have a knock-on effect in that people walking onto PUGs would be much more aware of what they can and can't do and might even learn to work in a team to avoid any kind of penalty through death. I wouldn't worry, it's never going to happen, I was just bringing it up as one of the reasons so many people haven't learned their class skills: they don't need to.

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Strange. I've got four wardens, know the class pretty well, don't have a problem tanking unless it's an instance that either lags me like crazy or I don't know it or the mechanics at all. If I know not the mechanics, I tell people. Usually it's kin. They don't mind a wipe, and sometimes that happens. If everyone was going to lose experience from said wipe, I don't think they'd be so understanding.

I still manage to die sometimes. Don't like the uber-death penalties. Never helped me learn anything in other games, except to not waste my time with them.

Do I have problems with PUGs? Oh yeah. To the point where I simply don't do them. I've managed to organise kin runs for some of the lower-level stuff, but if you do not have a good kin with a lot of members, even THAT is going to be extremely difficult.

Hence the solo feature. You may be able to play 12 hours per day. Some people get two hours twice a week - they probably don't want to spend all that time in LFG, or worse - taking a risk that they'll die and set back their characters even more.

Plus the game life-cycle - which I mentioned before. With everyone at level-cap, there's nobody around to do the lower instances with, except the occasional PUG (usually from hell). And when folks are THAT bad, they're not going to stick around and try to learn their class from a bigger death penalty either.

It would be a huge loss in revenue for Turbine to do it and a huge turn-off for the Tolkien freaks who make up the die-hard population of the game. So you're right - it isn't going to happen.

If it really did motivate people to stay and learn their classes, most MMOs would do it. Notice that in WoW (last time I was there, it's been a while) the stiffest death penalty lasts 12 minutes, I think?

There's a reason for that. No, I am not saying we should imitate Blizzard more. But not having a stiff death penalty is one of the many reasons for their huge success. As is catering to a casual gaming base. This is even more true in LoTRO - we get a lot of folks playing who wouldn't normally play an MMO because they love the books.

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Originally Posted by Ayrolen

Pretty much. People solo their way to cap, doing as little grouping as possible, then they want to play at endgame to get all of the shinies and they suck hard at grouping. And sadly, a lot of them don't want any advice or understand why the other people in the group get so frustrated because they have no idea what Purge Poison is or that they have other skills besides Bolster Courage.

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Wow.

1234567890

Because Turbine has made this game so ridiculously easy and soloable all the way to 65 that no one takes time any more to bother grouping along the way. And when they do finally group, they have no idea what they are doing.

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Originally Posted by deeman25845601

Because Turbine has made this game so ridiculously easy and soloable all the way to 65 that no one takes time any more to bother grouping along the way. And when they do finally group, they have no idea what they are doing but they want the same rewards as someone who works with others, bothers to learn the class(es), participates and thrives in truly difficult and challenging content.

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Just a few added points. :)

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Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel

[Quote Originally Posted by deeman25845601
Because Turbine has made this game so ridiculously easy and soloable all the way to 65 that no one takes time any more to bother grouping along the way. And when they do finally group, they have no idea what they are doing but they expect the same rewards as they were getting before, thought they'd bothered to learn the class(es), had no idea there was truly difficult and challenging content.

Just a few added points.

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Just changed some points.

It's all a matter of perspective, and everyone doesn't share yours... believe it or not...

The reason that people are bad players is either a lack of situational awareness or a lack of deductive reasoning, often a bit of both. Also, some people are lazy.

I've seen many spectacularly bad players. Fights like NCF cauldron, you need THIS MUCH dps to win. Bringing a trapper hunter or MM burg (amongst others) is a waste of a slot. Maybe they prefer to play that way but the fact is that they're not doing as much dps as they could be. Fights like LT t2 or BG twins, everyone has to pay attention to their eyes, one person who either can't see them/has them turned off/doesn't know where to go messes up the fight for everyone.

Often times people just need someone more experienced (either at the game, that fight, or their class) to sit down and explain things. The truly bad players are the ones who can't or won't learn. You tell a burg "hey, 5 MM isn't needed here, please go trait QK", and they say "no this is how i like to play", then that is a bad person to have around. Or ask everyone to trait melee/shadow defense for Ivar t2, someone thinks "oh i dont need to bother i'll be fine" and ends up dying early and precipitating a wipe.

People have completely lost the plot.
A game is designed to provide entertainment for those who play it.
The concept of whether a game is easy or hard makes no sense in an MMO
as MMOs are not games that can be won.
MMOs are simply about providing entertainment for those that play them.
The concept that people must learn how to play their class makes no sense at all.
Players will do whatever they like with their character and the class that it is , in order to
provide entertainment for them, and if that involves nothing more than pressing the same
few buttons over and over and ignoring all the rest, then good luck to them.
Multiplayer games are simply that, games with lots of players in them.
There is no rules or definitions about what the multi players are supposed to do.
No requirement at all the players have to do things in groups if they dont want too.
Too many people unfortunately think that it is their role to dictate to everyone else how
they must play the game.

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Originally Posted by emdy

People have completely lost the plot.
A game is designed to provide entertainment for those who play it.
The concept of whether a game is easy or hard makes no sense in an MMO
as MMOs are not games that can be won.
MMOs are simply about providing entertainment for those that play them.
The concept that people must learn how to play their class makes no sense at all.
Players will do whatever they like with their character and the class that it is , in order to
provide entertainment for them, and if that involves nothing more than pressing the same
few buttons over and over and ignoring all the rest, then good luck to them.
Multiplayer games are simply that, games with lots of players in them.
There is no rules or definitions about what the multi players are supposed to do.
No requirement at all the players have to do things in groups if they dont want too.
Too many people unfortunately think that it is their role to dictate to everyone else how
they must play the game.

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When you're in a group the way you play the game MUST change. A group is not a group if the players in it are all playing the way they play when solo. Multiplayer games are NOT simply that at all. If you don't recognise that fact, and are unwilling to accept advice to the contrary, then you are a poor group player indeed. (Or you're a troll and I just fed you....)

The issue of player competency in groups will never be solved by game mechanics or forum laments.

In some respects it is similar to drivers agreeing who is a bad driver while missing situational irony.

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Originally Posted by EU_Orc_Bane

Because Turbine has made this game so ridiculously easy and soloable all the way to 65 that no one takes time any more to bother grouping along the way. And when they do finally group, they have no idea what they are doing but they expect the same rewards as they were getting before, thought they'd bothered to learn the class(es), had no idea there was truly difficult and challenging content.

It's all a matter of perspective, and everyone doesn't share yours... believe it or not...

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Wait... Did anyone stop getting rewards?

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Originally Posted by hallasan

The issue of player competency in groups will never be solved by game mechanics or forum laments.

In some respects it is similar to drivers agreeing who is a bad driver while missing situational irony.

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It won't be solved by game mechanics to be sure, but forum laments may lead to a change of attitudes, which may lead to a better approach to players who haven't experienced group play before. We can but hope....

no offence but in my experience in grouping the hunters we bigest noobs(also know lot of hunters that know their class)
and my biggest grouping fail was on Forges second boss when those trolls come out and we died 3times,than i explained the tank to grab the trolls and to kite
than he grabed em fighed em,all were shouiting KITE,and when he died he sayd What is kite????
and everyone left lol

One issue no-one has touched on for lack of grouping at lower levels is a lack of continuing reward.
If I do GB at lvl 20, I might get some nice armour, 5 levels later (which can be a couple of days at those levels) I throw it away because I've made better armour from crafting now.
Why bother going to all the trouble when I can spend those 4-5 hours leveling, get most of those 5 levels that I need to get anyway doing far bigger quest rewards and get the crafted armour.

If however, you got some kind of useful at all levels unique unlock for doing say.... all three GB's (Set at a level no more than 5 below you perhaps), & ditto in Fornost, GA, Annuminus instances, & so forth for all the non level cap useful ones, you would probably see a lot more being run soon after getting access, so a lot more group play.

Make a good carrot and people will get the trend, when that newbie asks for advice as to how to advance from 20-30 he won't be told quest & crafted armour, he'll be told, Run GB's, Get GB armour, and unlock the unique ability/buff, then once you've done that, carry on with quests towards GA.

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Originally Posted by EU_Orc_Bane

So complain all you want about the state of the game, but the fact is that if it was working before, Turbine wouldn't have had to fix it. Or, in other words, us Tolkien fans weren't bringing in the bucks.

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So, Tolkien fans don't solo?

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Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel

Wait... Did anyone stop getting rewards?

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I meant that they would expect to get the same incrementally greater rewards as they were getting before, for beating harder content. I just didn't think it needed to be explained in detail.

<3 the title of this thread.

Some people are simply incapable of learning their class. I know one hunter who actually made 6-mans more difficult than if we'd be one short and didnt bring him along.

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Originally Posted by Ailedra

So, Tolkien fans don't solo?

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Of course they do, but my point was that MMO-playing Tolkien fans alone (solo or otherwise) have not been enough to keep Lotro financially viable. In order to atract/keep more players, Turbine had to make the game more accessible to casual/solo players, many of whom would not be attracted to the game by virtue of the IP alone.

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Originally Posted by EU_Orc_Bane

I meant that they would expect to get the same incrementally greater rewards as they were getting before, for beating harder content. I just didn't think it needed to be explained in detail.

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Yeah... I think I'm too dumb to write here. Or you may be too smart.

To the point here, grouping is not required nor encouraged in any part of the game while leveling. Again, one can be super-ubber-l33t stat-wise without stepping in an instance. All this to level 65. And the more and more solo-friendly things get, less and less people will be able to learn their classes since a part of knowing your class is to know how to operate in a group setting.

Does this make any sense?

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Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

<3 the title of this thread.

Some people are simply incapable of learning their class. I know one hunter who actually made 6-mans more difficult than if we'd be one short and didnt bring him along.

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That's just incapable of playing with others :) ....